Umineko: When The Revisions Cry

[Ovy7]

Tier 0 isn't about being "all powerful", it wasn't like that for years now. The tiering system currently is all about size (of the cosmology, etc.) - tier 0 included, where you can literally have hierarchies of Tier 0s suppersiding hierarchies of other Tier 0s (tho no idea if any verse gets to that point without being a math verse or Suggverse-type).

Edit: got ninjaed by Ed....

 

[MrKerf]

Also becoming tier 0 is not that unlikely. Randolph Carter, if I recall correctly, became part of Yog-Sothoth, for example. Although I don't know whether he is a tier 0 now or not.

Got ninjaed by both of you, so decided to write about something else.

 

[ZERO7772]

I am yet to see these Maria scans tbh.

 

[Ovy7]

Check the 2nd page, it was discussed there.

 

[Ovy7]

Also becoming tier 0 is not that unlikely. Randolph Carter, if I recall correctly, became part of Yog-Sothoth, for example. Although I don't know whether he is a tier 0 now or not.

Pretty much. Tho no idea about him becoming 0 in the future, depends on the Lovecraft revision.

Got ninjaed by both of you, so decided to write about something else.

LEL, sorry

 

[Rikimarox2]

Randolph Carter, if I recall correctly, became part of Yog-Sothoth, for example. Although I don't know whether he is a tier 0 now or not.

I heard quite the opposite though? From what I recall, he was supposed to be hard downgraded, with his 1-A key being removed. Could be wrong though =p

 

[MrKerf]

Well, Yog has avatar key and true self key. It's unlikely that Carter became part of an avatar, so we're left only with true self which is tier 0.

With Carter is actually the same situation as with Maria (maybe except being himself stuff, I don't remember Cthulhu too much).

I heard quite the opposite though? From what I recall, he was supposed to be hard downgraded, with his 1-A key being removed. Could be wrong though =p

Well, it should make sense, I suppose. If he is becoming part of Yog, he essentially becomes Yog. And what's the point to have a key that copies another character?
These are just my thoughts. Again, I don't remember much.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Randolph is at his tier for being his own Archetype before being part of the Supreme Archetype.

Also regarding Detective Authority, wasn't this supposed to just be the OP mind manip higher beings has and not litteral plot armor?

 

[Jinsye]

Also regarding Detective Authority, wasn't this supposed to just be the OP mind manip higher beings has and not litteral plot armor?

Erika implies that it'd let her live through Rokkenjima's explosion in Forgery of the Purple Logic.

While that game isn't canon, we can treat it like Golden Fantasia and have it's worldbuilding be canon.

 

[MrKerf]

Welp, time to finaly read it than.

Meanwhile, aren't we considering all forgeries canon or at least secondary canon?

 

[Jinsye]

Well, Forgery of the Purple Logic is absolutely not canon.

It's pre-episode 5 yet Battler knows Dlanor and Willard despite that and he also doesn't know Lion.

 

[Ovy7]

They are technically canon, but considering they are basically in-universe fanfictions... well, it's weird #justUminekothings

 

[QuasiYuri]

Erika implies that it'd let her live through Rokkenjima's explosion in Forgery of the Purple Logic.

While that game isn't canon, we can treat it like Golden Fantasia and have it's worldbuilding be canon.

It's not a game tho.

Can I see the the statement about it please?

 

[Jinsye]

It is a "game" in the Umineko sense in that it's a gameboard that Battler/Beato play

https://tadhgn8q1dmmp.r6ve501q16f98...aver/7cecefa7684af2b4dbfb02042df7f8fb/x19.jpg

Here

 

[Rikimarox2]

The link doesn't seem to be working.

 

[MrKerf]

Imagine: Multiverse level plot-armor.

It is a "game" in the Umineko sense in that it's a gameboard that Battler/Beato play

https://tadhgn8q1dmmp.r6ve501q16f98...aver/7cecefa7684af2b4dbfb02042df7f8fb/x19.jpg

Here

******** links aren't working like that.

 

[Ovy7]

Imagine: Multiverse level plot-armor.

I mean, Endless Nine is that, kind-off/in a way. Like, Auau says something like "the Overlord Cats can't do anything to Battler because they aren't part of his story/they are outsiders to his story" when Battler no-sold the Overlords' attacks with his E9.

 

[MrKerf]

I mean... I don't know about that. Endless Nine should work only against supernatural (so, it's a powernull). And for Overlords, I don't know. I think it's more because of the unfinished story like Aurora said, not because of his magic-defiance.

 

[Jinsye]

Here, was on mobile before

 

[MrKerf]

Hmm, no. She is just referencing the Reichenbach Fall and makes an assumption. I am only on chapter 2, but so far Detective's Authority wasn't stated in red (or as rule in general).

 

[MrKerf]

Also, should I list some abilities that I'll find in the manga? Or is it unnessasary, as it is "not that much canon"?

 

[Antvasima]

YuriAkuto and Ovy7:

How great certainty do we have that Maria and Beatrice are going to increase in power to such a degree? Is it a given conclusion, or mostly speculation on our part?

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally currently uncertain, given that it seems like we have used such statistics keys for quite a lot of other characters.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Pardon me if my wording seems a bit off, I'm quite tired right now. But from what I gathered is:

Maria has a few statements and stuff saying that she'll become a creator. The people however, have a problem with the fact that her future self has not made a single appearance in the vn. Though, people seem to mostly hate the idea of giving tiers to future characters who haven't made an appearance, not just Umineko specifically.

Personally, I am against Tier 0 maria, due to the fact that she only has a few statements saying that she'll become a creator, but I don't think that's enough to warrant a huge tier like Tier 0. Especially since she doesn't have any feats remotely close to it, and the fact that her future self hasn't made a single appearance.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Maria is certain, being backed up by how unique she is, WoG and TIPS (although Chiru seems to have totally forgot her existence tbh). However like Rikimarox said, her "future self" never appeared.

Beato is mostly Lambdadelta explaining why she interrests her so meh. What's amazing is her system.

My position is that this kind of thing should have more rules than just deciding like this. Some characters have it in a legit way like Avatar of Calamity and Sinbad because it was an actual thing they were going to do and not just an hypothetical future self.

If I should give a (bad) example, it's like the difference between an human who's eating poison regularly and will end up gaining a resistance to it and humans one day being able to fly through evolution or natural selection.

 

[Ovy7]

I mean, if her future self IS the Creator... then how would she make an appearance considering who the Creator is?

YuriAkuto and Ovy7:

How great certainty do we have that Maria and Beatrice are going to increase in power to such a degree? Is it a given conclusion, or mostly speculation on our part?

To me is a given conclusion, at least in Beatrice's case as there Bernkastel talks about her transcending Witches in the past tense (so it already took place). It would also make sense with her Endless Magic, because Endless Magic allows for infinite evolution.

Maria's case is a bit vague, but considering that the author himself names her along with the Creator in interviews to me seems clear that that was the intent.

Edit: Got ninjaed by Yuri. What's with so many ninjaed post today T_T

Edit2: Also, IIRC Ultima said on Discord that Beatrice's is actually ok in his opinion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that the ratings can probably remain then. The main issue is that we have never had such an extreme case as a potential tier 0 in the wiki before, unless we count The Amaranth, which is from a possible future in The Elder Scrolls.

 

[MrKerf]

So, if Zeno-sama will say that Goku will rival him with his next form, than I am allowed to go and create this key? (Don't wan't to sound toxic, just want to create an absurd example)

I mean, I believe 100% that their potential exist and that they will, after infinite time, reach Creators realm, but to create a key for these future versions of them is nonsense.

And again, such instanses in all verses should be at least questioned. I propose to create a crt where all users and staff can discuss how to handle such cases.

What do you think, everyone?

 

[Ovy7]

Yes, that's an insane example, and I honestly don't get the love for example like those.

For the "infinite time" thing, we already know that Beatrice transcended the Witch Domain (like Bern said), and it didn't took her infinite time. For Maria too, the statements from Beatrice are that it would take her 1000 years, not infinite time. Hell, just getting close to the higher domains makes time all weird, with 1000 years being like a quick nap, and once you hit the higher domain the concept of time becomes meaningless. Hell, you even got stuff like the Witch Bernkastel existing even before she left Rika and meating Meta-Rika, so time and time-frames are pretty meaningless.

 

[MrKerf]

Not the point at all. And yes, the example is bad.

Anyway, I gave my opinion, now I'm gonna go finish Purple Logic. Ovy, can we use it as proofs of abilities or too non-canon?

 

[Ovy7]

I guess it could work as proof for abilities...

 

[MrKerf]

Great. I'll create a list (if gather enough for a list, haha) after finishing.

 

[MrKerf]

Hooo, boy. That was fun.

Regarding Detective Authority being plot armor - not sure. Erika did said many times that she won't die because she is a detective. While not in red, that many times is enough to make some conclusions.
Detective's Autority itself wasn't confirmed in red, Battler however did confirmed it in white (as a piece), and Erika was confirmed in red as a detective by Beatrice.
Conclusion: eh. Erika is without a doubt detective. Also it seems that piece Erika knows that she is a part of a gameboard (despite her meta version not being present anywhere near the story; and no, I don't believe that there's some other version to this "gameboard"), so we maybe probably can believe her words regarding the detective's "immortality" to some extent. Not sure.

For abilities: Social Influencing for Erika. Yes, that's all -_-
As a side notes:
maybe we can add Purple Declaration to the Truths page, and give it to Bern.
Erika's intelligence listed as "Very intelligent". Why not Genius is a real mystery to me (I may even argue for Extraordinary Genius, but eh, another time).

That's all for now. I thought that I can find a bit more in this manga, oh well.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think that the tier wouldn't matter for this kind of things, and is not really an issue in itself.

But yeah someone should made the whole potential/future issue a revision. If nobody does it I can make a thread in whatever thread it should be.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. A future staff forum thread may be a good idea, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Several of the tier 1 and 0 profile pages are still unlocked. Can somebody please write a list of all the ones that are fine for me to lock again?

 

[MrKerf]

• Virgilia
• Kinzo Ushiromiya
• Rudolf Ushiromiya
• Kyrie Ushiromiya
• Rosa Ushiromiya
• Willard H. Wright
• Dlanor A. Knox

Since changes were made to these pages, I think they can be sfely closed.
Erika's page will be the only one that's open.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. What about Maria?

 

[MrKerf]

You mean her tier 0? I suppose we agreed upon creating thread regarding all such instances, so for now her profile can remain as it is.

 

[Antvasima]

No, I meant that he profile was left unlocked.

I have locked it now though.