Umineko Nonexistent Physiology addition

[Nekobako]

According to the story of Umineko, the story is already answered for most of all gameboard that witch and magic never existed in the first place that makes all events related to them never happened in the first place as well.
So this CRT intends to make witch in the gameboard have nonexistence physiology with my supporting evidences.


1. About the Red Truth

• Red truth is used to say the truth without any proof and evidence to support the sentence.
• According to Ep4, Battler was born to Asumu Ushiromiya because that Red Truth is about Battler's biological mother who is Kyrie that is already answered from Ep8 manga.

So basically, in order to use the Red Truth, the content of the sentence must not conflict with the truth.
- According to Ep3 Eva-Beatrice VS Beatrice, Eva got denied by Beato's Red Truth (even we don't know the content but Eva got denied by the Red Truth completely.)

As a result, in order to use the Red truth to deny the existence of witch, the witch must be nonexistence before using the Red Truth.
If not, the Red Truth cannot be used to deny the existence of witch because "the witch is really exist" will be the truth and using the Red truth to deny the existence of Eva-Beatrice will be impossible because it conflicts with the truth that "the witch is really exist".


2. The answer from the story about the Gameboard

According to Will VS Clair in Ep7 and Erika VS Battler in Ep8, those logic battle presented how the human culprit commit the crime that makes the crime by the existence of witch and magic in the gameboard will be denied and never existed in the first place in the gameboards from Ep 1-6
So what Beato said in Ep6 according to anti-magic toxin (poisonous words) that "we do not exist on this island" and "this hallway is completely empty right now" will be true.

Basically, you cannot say that no one inside the room while you're inside the room.


Summary
In order to use the Red Truth to deny the existence of the witch and magic, the witch must be nonexistence in the first place and the story already proof that they never existed in the first place so
All of fantasy beings (at least witch and furniture) as a piece in the gameboard of Ep1-6 will have Nonexistence physiology Nature 1 Aspect 1 by being nonexistence in those gameboard and able to be denied by Red Truth also they have the same nature like them


Agree: @Astral_Trinity439


Disagree: @Sisyphusx (should be NEP nature 3), @Magicomethkuon (They're the personification of a collection of theories.)


Neutral:

 

[Sisyphusx]

I think it's more of a paradoxical non-existence, using the red truth itself to substantiate this claim, just like battler can say in red that magic and witches don't exist, Beatrice too can do so and have done so saying that magic and witches exist and the certain events couldn't take place without them

Like the series itself explains by Schrodinger's cat that "witches exist" and "witches don't exist" both possibilities are equally true and exist simultaneously unless "the box is open to see inside"

This implies that Witches, furnitures, demons and any fantasy beings exist as both part 1 and part 0 simultaneously where existence is 1 and non-existence is 0 which is NEP nature 3

 

[Railgun]

I think it's more of a paradoxical non-existence, using the red truth itself to substantiate this claim, just like battler can say in red that magic and witches don't exist, Beatrice too can do so and have done so saying that magic and witches exist and the certain events couldn't take place without them

Like the series itself explains by Schrodinger's cat that "witches exist" and "witches don't exist" both possibilities are equally true and exist simultaneously unless "the box is open to see inside"

This implies that Witches, furnitures, demons and any fantasy beings exist as both part 1 and part 0 simultaneously where existence is 1 and non-existence is 0 which is NEP nature 3

I think the same way, not sure how true it is

 

[Ovy7]

Uh, this is the first time I've seen an argument for NEP being made this way. Interesting.

There's also the very reason WTC got NEP2 in the first place: that beings from the Meta World are an existence of nothingness before materializing; which IIRC is Aspect 2 (conceptual nonexistence).

 

[Nekobako]

I think it's more of a paradoxical non-existence, using the red truth itself to substantiate this claim, just like battler can say in red that magic and witches don't exist, Beatrice too can do so and have done so saying that magic and witches exist and the certain events couldn't take place without them

Like the series itself explains by Schrodinger's cat that "witches exist" and "witches don't exist" both possibilities are equally true and exist simultaneously unless "the box is open to see inside"

This implies that Witches, furnitures, demons and any fantasy beings exist as both part 1 and part 0 simultaneously where existence is 1 and non-existence is 0 which is NEP nature 3

Schrodinger catbox is my very first idea about Nep but I've no idea how to interpret for exist part since it's just possibilities, not the truth/reality


However, do they need to have Nep nature 1 first before Nep nature 3?

 

[Sisyphusx]

Schrodinger catbox is my very first idea about Nep but I've no idea how to interpret for exist part since it's just possibilities, not the truth/reality

Actually no, they're not merely possibilities but also truth/reality as you can see battler here stating that truth is fragile and as both sides make their claim, two different truths coexist which applies everywhere in the series, hence "witches exists" and "witches don't exist" both claims are equally true and real which forms a paradox

However, do they need to have Nep nature 1 first before Nep nature 3?

No, not necessarily

 

[Nekobako]

No, not necessarily

Ok, thank you

 

[Nekobako]

Bump

 

[Nekobako]

Bump

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I don't think the witches are non-existent. More like purely conceptual theories incarnate. Any time a character gets the Something Beatrice moniker, it's because they are the personification of a collection of theories about them being the killer.

It's why Black Battler's full designation is more like the Black Interpretation of Battler Based On the Battler Culprit Theory. So I have to disagree, but a certain amount of overlap may be possible between the two. When Witches are denied with the Red Truth it's a case of them not being the culprit in the first place so the collection of theories is not actually true. But it very much exists.

 

[Nekobako]

I don't think the witches are non-existent. More like purely conceptual theories incarnate. Any time a character gets the Something Beatrice moniker, it's because they are the personification of a collection of theories about them being the killer.

It's why Black Battler's full designation is more like the Black Interpretation of Battler Based On the Battler Culprit Theory. So I have to disagree. When Witches are denied with the Red Truth it's a case of them not being the culprit in the first place so the collection of theories is not actually true. But it very much exists.

Is it the same as Ae1?

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Is it the same as Ae1?

They can still be seen and interacted with by normal people. With something like Nanjo's death in episode 3 in mind, and the definition of the Manytrices I err on the side of caution with saying that they are non-existent. So I'm not sure how accurate these forums' standards would consider, to say that they don't exist physically, at least when they are personified in the board. Which is what the Piece keys elaborate about.

At most I can see their existence as truth in the board being disallowed by the Red once revealed that the theories are just theories. At which point they'd not have nonexistent phys, they'd simply not exist at all in the board outside of a simple theory.

This also explains why higher layer keys already have non-existence phys and how, as theories themselves, they'd also have it but not necessarily in the piece key. To summarize everything I wouldn't pursue the thought much if you wanted to advocate for it but I don't think the foundation is solid enough that it can't be questioned or seen another way.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Short version of my other answer, without all the elaborate pseudo-intellectual pain in the ass:
A. Piecetrices are theories embodied in the board, normals like Terumasa Nanjo are capable of interaction with them.
B. Piecetrices don't keep existing in the board once denied with the Red, they disappear. End of episode 3 for reference.
C. Higher Layers meanwhile continue to exist since the principle and root of their existence is the theory that they are embodied from in boards. These already have non-existent phys type 2 (aspects probably redundant to mention since what they can lack is just about everything, until I think about it).

Putting these three together is why don't think that piecetrices are really NEP.

 

[Sisyphusx]

I don't think the witches are non-existent. More like purely conceptual theories incarnate. Any time a character gets the Something Beatrice moniker, it's because they are the personification of a collection of theories about them being the killer.

I take that by "witches" here you're only referring to the piece witches? anyway Beatrice's pre-existing NEP type 2 has a legitimate justification although I think NEP 2 is not the only type she incorporates, as I implied in my initial message through the OP's argument, she may have type 3 as well, although I've a much solid and straightforward argument for that - might not even be an argument since it's explicitly stated - through these scans and;

Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities.

it might be aspect 5 since "what they can lack is just about everything" which can pretty much be implies on most of the fantasy beings

Putting these three together is why don't think that piecetrices are really NEP.

I don't think the OP is specifically referring to piecetrice incorporating NEP rather the entire 'fantasy beings' through their argument

 

[Nekobako]

Bump

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Following, am neutral on this, only because I'm not specialized in this verse and don't know what some of the terms mean.
Can someone please summarize it for me in a simpler form rather than using in-verse names and terms[truths, pieces etc]?

 

[Nekobako]

Following, am neutral on this, only because I'm not specialized in this verse and don't know what some of the terms mean.
Can someone please summarize it for me in a simpler form rather than using in-verse names and terms[truths, pieces etc]?

You can't use the Red Truth to say that "1+1=3" because in reality is "1+1=2" so the Red Truth as "1+1=3" is able to use when the reality is 1+1=3

So you can only use the Red Truth to say that "Witch doesn't exist" when witch doesn't really exist in the first place (as the reality).

 

[Ovy7]

Following, am neutral on this, only because I'm not specialized in this verse and don't know what some of the terms mean.
Can someone please summarize it for me in a simpler form rather than using in-verse names and terms[truths, pieces etc]?

Pieces are either in-story avatars of higher beings or just the normal characters in the story. Think of it like how a player avatar in Skyrim and the NPCs in the game are.

Truths are a conceptual form of magic that weaponizes Truth. They come in multiple forms: Blue Truths is when you declare something as truth and the opposition would need to counter it, otherwise it would become true even if what you said isn't actually true; Red Truths is when what you declare is undeniably true, like 1+1=2, you are not able to lie with it (like, you would stop speaking if you tried to lie using Red); there's also Golden Truths when what you declare might actually be only true for yourself.

This is just a small explanation of the concept. For more info there is a Truths page on the wiki.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

You can't use the Red Truth to say that "1+1=3" because in reality is "1+1=2" so the Red Truth as "1+1=3" is able to use when the reality is 1+1=3

So you can only use the Red Truth to say that "Witch doesn't exist" when witch doesn't really exist in the first place (as the reality).

Oh, that seems a lot more simple to understand.
So.... the red truth was used on witches to say "Witches don't exist", and that part was successfully said[without suffocation or something]? If yes than I can agree to NEP1 Aspect 1.

Truths are a conceptual form of magic that weaponizes Truth. They come in multiple forms: Blue Truths is when you declare something as truth and the opposition would need to counter it, otherwise it would become true even if what you said isn't actually true; Red Truths is when what you declare is undeniably true, like 1+1=2, you are not able to lie with it (like, you would stop speaking if you tried to lie using Red); there's also Golden Truths when what you declare might actually be only true for yourself.

Hmm, thanks for the explanation. but seeing how you're saying they are a conceptual form, are they able to effect the target on a conceptual level? If yes than shouldn't that be aspect 2[maybe in combination to 1 as well]?

I agree on NEP 1 aspect 1, and suggesting aspect 2 to be added as well if truths effect the target on a conceptual level

 

[Ovy7]

are they able to effect the target on a conceptual level?

Yes, they are able to target on conceptual lvl and be used to deny concepts.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Yes, they are able to target on conceptual lvl and be used to deny concepts.

than it will be aspect 1 and 2

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

exist

than it will be aspect 1 and 2

you should add aspect 2 in the OP too since they qualify for it

 

[Nekobako]

you should add aspect 2 in the OP too since they qualify for it

I didn't put aspect 2 because the existence of concept didn't prevent to say the Red Truth
(but the concept will be denied after saying the Red Truth)

They can exist as concept/theory like this explanation:

I don't think the witches are non-existent. More like purely conceptual theories incarnate. Any time a character gets the Something Beatrice moniker, it's because they are the personification of a collection of theories about them being the killer.

It's why Black Battler's full designation is more like the Black Interpretation of Battler Based On the Battler Culprit Theory. So I have to disagree, but a certain amount of overlap may be possible between the two. When Witches are denied with the Red Truth it's a case of them not being the culprit in the first place so the collection of theories is not actually true. But it very much exists.

However, it's still lead to additional abilities other than Nep.

Oh, that seems a lot more simple to understand.
So.... the red truth was used on witches to say "Witches don't exist", and that part was successfully said[without suffocation or something]? If yes than I can agree to NEP1 Aspect 1.

Basically, Beatrice used the Red truth to deny the existence of witch to expose the true identity of culprit.
We just only know that it's the Red Truth to deny the existence of the witch but we don't know the content in that Red Truth which can be lead to other interpretations of that Red Truth.
(So i would say it's just supporting evidence but using the Red Truth explanation is quite easy for non-Umineko readers)

However, my 2nd argument about "The answer from the story about the Gameboard" is an explanation about the true reality which support that witch doesn't exist in the first place.
(but it's difficult for me to explain for non-Umineko readers because it's too long and quite complicated.)

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I didn't put aspect 2 because the existence of concept didn't prevent to say the Red Truth
(but the concept will be denied after saying the Red Truth)

They can exist as concept/theory like his explanation:

However, it's still lead to additional abilities other than Nep.

Hmm, so the aspect on concept isn't present because their concept[theories] is something that "exists"? Ig that would make sense to not give aspect 2 than.

However, on an additional note, I found this scan in another recent thread.

And this seems to apply to all witches[?], and as they at one point existed as "nothing" prior to the existence of their "identity"[don't know if this specific term holds an importance in the verse itself] and "thoughts"[mind]. So maybe aspect 3 too?

 

[Nekobako]

However, on an additional note, I found this scan in another recent thread.

And this seems to apply to all witches[?], and as they at one point existed as "nothing" prior to the existence of their "identity"[don't know if this specific term holds an importance in the verse itself] and "thoughts"[mind]. So maybe aspect 3 too?

Pieces are either in-story avatars of higher beings or just the normal characters in the story. Think of it like how a player avatar in Skyrim and the NPCs in the game are.

Most of discussion about NEP in site is about higher beings, not pieces.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Most of discussion about NEP in site is about higher beings, not pieces.

So the scan that I found was about avatars?[the one I linked]. NEP1 Aspect 1 it is than

 

[Ovy7]

So the scan that I found was about avatars?[the one I linked].

No, that's for the higher beings.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

No, that's for the higher beings.

??? Now I'm confused. Than is this referring to this thread instead?

Most of discussion about NEP in site is about higher beings, not pieces.

Is this discussion on this thread about Higher beings or pieces?

 

[Nekobako]

??? Now I'm confused. Than is this referring to this thread instead?

Is this discussion on this thread about Higher beings or pieces?

Pieces

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Pieces

oh, alright. well in any case I agree to NEP1 on aspect 1

 

[Nekobako]

Bump

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Bump

Have you promoted this crt in the crt promotion thread? or contacted any admin in their msg walls?

 

[Ovy7]

Yeah, this needs some staff.

 

[Railgun]

Bump

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

has someone messaged the staff on their walls?

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

Bump

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

This thread has been dead for so long xD
and I think you shouldn't bump 1 month old threads

Bump