Ultimate Madoka Speed? Omnipresent or Nigh?

[SomebodyData]

Oi, hello VSBattles, after a few arguements in chat it seemed best to present a question on whether or not Ultimate Madoka (And by extension Akuma Homura) is omnipresent. Created by Kyubey to counter Madokami's omniprescence the Isolation Zone is basically the inside of Homura's soul gem (ie astral plane), which if we're going by the definition isn't part of space nor time.

 

[CaptainFalcon64]

This looks interesting.

 

[LordAizenSama]

"Created by Kyubey to counter Madokami's omniprescence"

Omnipotence,OmniScient and Omnipresence deals in absolutes, there are no exceptions, there can be none.

What you're saying is essentially no different to this:

"Kyubei created a weapon capable of defeating a omnipotent" is essentially what this is. of course that makes no sense at all. it's the same with "omnipresence" being countered.

 

[Squid_peanut]

"Created by Kyubey to counter Madokami's omniprescence"
Omnipotence,OmniScient and Omnipresence deals in absolutes, there are no exceptions, there can be none.

What you're saying is essentially no different to this:

"Kyubei created a weapon capable of defeating a omnipotent" is essentially what this is. of course that makes no sense at all. it's the same with "omnipresence" being countered.

the only difference being that an omnipotent can stop something even of omnipotent power, there is nothing to say that an omnipresent could too. in fact, the thing in question could be omnipotent and should be able to take and give omnipressence

 

[LordAizenSama]

lets not go into omnipotent paradoxes for the sake of our sanity..

 

[Squid_peanut]

lets not go into omnipotent paradoxes for the sake of our sanity..

ok, but the baseline is, something omnipotent should be able to limit a entity's omnipresence simply by the nature of omipotence itslef

 

[SomebodyData]

"Created by Kyubey to counter Madokami's omniprescence"Omnipotence,OmniScient and Omnipresence deals in absolutes, there are no exceptions, there can be none.
What you're saying is essentially no different to this:

"Kyubei created a weapon capable of defeating a omnipotent" is essentially what this is. of course that makes no sense at all. it's the same with "omnipresence" being countered.

I believe you should read the counter arguement again, the zone is likely not part of the same time and space continumm as the rest of the multiverse (you were actually in chat when this was discovered, I could repost it here if you want). Does omniprescence include a pocket universe isolated from the rest of the multiverse and its space time continumm?

Then theres the fact that Homulilly is omnipresent in Homura's False City(by literally being the soul gem(And in extention the Isolation Zone as it is an extension of Homura's witch and soul gem) which would make Homura omnipresent in the Zone. So can omnipresent counter another omnipresent?

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

The problem is. As i already state in another post. That this kind of things deal in absolutes.

Lets start with an easy one. How Kyubey, who is suposse to be leagues below Godoka is capable of creating a place where the Law of Cycles can enter? Why Godoka, who is suposse to be a high multiversal warper. Is incapable of changing the laws of one simple dimension/universe? of course. Now you could say that "The Isolation Field is suposse to block anything from the outside" but that still doesn't speak well for Godoka. Again. If she is so powerful who someone who is weaker than her (Kyubey) can create a place where she can't enter? again. She is a high multiversal warper, how Kyubey can create a place where she is powerless? Is Kyubey multiversal? if Kyubey is multiversal. Which i suposse you could say. Then we get even more questions.

First. How, or why, a high multiversal being capable of stopping a Goddess that can warp infinite universes is incapable of doing something so simple like erase the concept of entropy? And i mean simple because entropy only affects one universe. Is a law of physic but if Kyubey is so powerful, then that should mean nothing to him.

Also. Lets be real here. If Madoka is effectivly omnipresent or nigh omnipresent. Then why she couldn't see that Homura will try to fool her? or tag her? and i don't mean that why she couldn't dodge her, no, i'm asking why she didn't know what Homura was going to do? i mean she didn't know because there is no way her reaction in Rebellion is the reaction of someone who was expecting Homura's act. She literally scream and beg Homura to stop. So obviously she wasn't expecting that. And you could say "Well. Homura is her best friend. Why she would expect that from her?" And the answer is: Omnipresence deals in absolutes. If Madoka exist in the future she should know what Homura was going to do. She can't "expect" something. She already know is going to happen. Yet she still seems so shocked.

For me at least these are great plotholes in the whole "Nigh omnipresent" or even "high multiverse" level.

 

[SomebodyData]

The problem is. As i already state in another post. That this kind of things deal in absolutes.
Lets start with an easy one. How Kyubey, who is suposse to be leagues below Godoka is capable of creating a place where the Law of Cycles can enter? Why Godoka, who is suposse to be a high multiversal warper. Is incapable of changing the laws of one simple dimension/universe? of course. Now you could say that "The Isolation Field is suposse to block anything from the outside" but that still doesn't speak well for Godoka. Again. If she is so powerful who someone who is weaker than her (Kyubey) can create a place where she can't enter? again. She is a high multiversal warper, how Kyubey can create a place where she is powerless? Is Kyubey multiversal? if Kyubey is multiversal. Which i suposse you could say. Then we get even more questions.

First. How, or why, a high multiversal being capable of stopping a Goddess that can warp infinite universes is incapable of doing something so simple like erase the concept of entropy? And i mean simple because entropy only affects one universe. Is a law of physic but if Kyubey is so powerful, then that should mean nothing to him.

Also. Lets be real here. If Madoka is effectivly omnipresent or nigh omnipresent. Then why she couldn't see that Homura will try to fool her? or tag her? and i don't mean that why she couldn't dodge her, no, i'm asking why she didn't know what Homura was going to do? i mean she didn't know because there is no way her reaction in Rebellion is the reaction of someone who was expecting Homura's act. She literally scream and beg Homura to stop. So obviously she wasn't expecting that. And you could say "Well. Homura is her best friend. Why she would expect that from her?" And the answer is: Omnipresence deals in absolutes. If Madoka exist in the future she should know what Homura was going to do. She can't "expect" something. She already know is going to happen. Yet she still seems so shocked.

For me at least these are great plotholes in the whole "Nigh omnipresent" or even "high multiverse" level.

1. Sealing, or in this case pretty much reverse sealing, doesn't have to do with ap. Also why would she kill Homura in the process of destroying the zone? (Like I said in my rebuttal to Lord Aizen Sama, the Zone is actually connected to Homura.

2.^

3.Like I said different time space continumm, please read the previous arguements before posting.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

"1. Sealing, or in this case pretty much reverse sealing, doesn't have to do with ap. "

Who is talking about AP? Madoka didn't even show a high multiverse AP. But that's not the important part. I'm talking about reality warp. Madoka is suposse to be capable of reality warp and rewritte infinite universes. Which is FAAAAR higher than anything that Kyubey has showed. Yet. For some reason. His Isolation Field is capable of stopping Madoka. Again. Kyubey is suposse to be leagues below Madoka in every field. It doesn't make sense that he could use his own power to supress her influence.

"Also why would she kill Homura in the process of destroying the zone? (Like I said in my rebuttal to Lord Aizen Sama, the Zone is actually connected to Homura)"

Why she should care? Again. Madoka is suposse to be a multiversal warper. Why she can't erase the zone, erase the incubators and entropy, since her range is suposse to be far higher than the last three?

"3.Like I said different time space continumm, please read the previous arguements before posting."

That's not an excuse. Literally. The Isolation Field is a dimension that doesn't allow anything from outside interfere. And in any case. Madoka is suposse to be capable of affecting an infinite number of spacetime continumm (She is High 2-A. So her range shouldn't be restricted to one) yet she is not capable.

 

[SomebodyData]

"1. Sealing, or in this case pretty much reverse sealing, doesn't have to do with ap. "
Who is talking about AP? "She is a high multiversal warper, how Kyubey can create a place where she is powerless? Is Kyubey multiversal?"

Madoka didn't even show a high multiverse AP. But that's not the important part. I'm talking about reality warp. Madoka is suposse to be capable of reality warp and rewritte infinite universes. Which is FAAAAR higher than anything that Kyubey has showed. Yet. For some reason. His Isolation Field is capable of stopping Madoka. Again. Kyubey is suposse to be leagues below Madoka in every field. It doesn't make sense that he could use his own power to supress her influence.

His own power? Did you even read what the Isolation Zone is based on? Its based on Homura's soul gem, then theres the fact that Madoka can't interact with the physical world

"Also why would she kill Homura in the process of destroying the zone? (Like I said in my rebuttal to Lord Aizen Sama, the Zone is actually connected to Homura)"

Why she should care? Again. Madoka is suposse to be a multiversal warper. Why she can't erase the zone, erase the incubators and entropy, since her range is suposse to be far higher than the last three?

Didn't you see Puella Magi Madoka Magica or read my arguements? She can't interact with the physical world as a goddess.

"3.Like I said different time space continumm, please read the previous arguements before posting."

That's not an excuse. Literally. The Isolation Field is a dimension that doesn't allow anything from outside interfere. And in any case. Madoka is suposse to be capable of affecting an infinite number of spacetime continumm (She is High 2-A. So her range shouldn't be restricted to one) yet she is not capable.

Ah you're right. Well, luckly theres still the other possible reason why she couldn't affect it

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

"His own power? Did you even read what the Isolation Zone is based on? Its based on Homura's soul gem, then theres the fact that Madoka can't interact with the physical world"

Ehm. No? Do you want me to quote directly what Kyubey says about the Isolation Field?

"We created a barrier field surronding your soul gem that prevented all intereference from outside. What will happen when we seal off a soul gem that is darkened to the limit?"

"When we isolate it from the power that purifies and ascends magic girls, the power that you called 'laws of cycle' then what will happen to the soul gem? The resulting observation is indeed rather fascinating. An isolated dimension was formed with its own independent law that seeks to guide and capture victims from the outside... This match what you have previously explained, the power of a 'witch'. So long as you are protected by the isolation field, then you would not become a full 'witch'. Like a chick who grew up within its own shell. That is why you formed a labryinth within. It's quite shocking that it is fully capable of replicating and reproducing an entire city. This place we are at right now, is a world existing solely within your own soul gem."

"That is due to our adjustment. The isolation field will only stop interference from one direction. Even though it will reject all attempts from the outside, it is still possible to guide a victim in from the inside. Only targets that your witch side unconsciously seeks will enter this world. After such limitation, if the force known as 'law of cycle' seeks to contact Akemi Homura still. Then the only way it will enter is through being captured by the labyrinth as a victim and be forced to materialize in this world. In that case, us Incubator will then finally be able to ascertain the puzzle behind magic girl's disappearance, and observe it directly. In fact, the characters that existed in the real world already joined in strange ways. What is more fascinating, a girl that neither existed in past memory nor future possibility, someone who should have no connection, no cause or effect to this world, joined seemlessly in your world. Well, there was never any need to search, from the begining you have made things easier for us, Akemi Homura. Even before this all started, you have always called the 'law of cycles' by the name of Kaname Madoka."

It is stated multiple times that the Isolation Field is what is preventing Madoka from interact with Homura's soul gem. Since she IS able to save Puella Magi from transform into witches (in fact that's what she does during Episode 12 and in the final part of Rebellion when Homura tagged her) She is the force that prevent it. So she can interact with the physical world at least partially. But even then the incubators were capable of isolating it and prevent Madoka. Who is suposse to be far more powerful than her. Interact with it

"Didn't you see Puella Magi Madoka Magica or read my arguements? She can't interact with the physical world as a goddess."

She just can't be seeing by the rest. Again. She is able to interact with the soul gems of the Puella Magi, destroy the witches and Homura, who had her power. Was capable of moving freely and rewritte the universe at will

 

[SomebodyData]

Ehm. No? Do you want me to quote directly what Kyubey says about the Isolation Field?

"We created a barrier field surronding your soul gem that prevented all intereference from outside. What will happen when we seal off a soul gem that is darkened to the limit?"

"When we isolate it from the power that purifies and ascends magic girls, the power that you called 'laws of cycle' then what will happen to the soul gem? The resulting observation is indeed rather fascinating. An isolated dimension was formed with its own independent law that seeks to guide and capture victims from the outside... This match what you have previously explained, the power of a 'witch'. So long as you are protected by the isolation field, then you would not become a full 'witch'. Like a chick who grew up within its own shell. That is why you formed a labryinth within. It's quite shocking that it is fully capable of replicating and reproducing an entire city. This place we are at right now, is a world existing solely within your own soul gem."

"That is due to our adjustment. The isolation field will only stop interference from one direction. Even though it will reject all attempts from the outside, it is still possible to guide a victim in from the inside. Only targets that your witch side unconsciously seeks will enter this world. After such limitation, if the force known as 'law of cycle' seeks to contact Akemi Homura still. Then the only way it will enter is through being captured by the labyrinth as a victim and be forced to materialize in this world. In that case, us Incubator will then finally be able to ascertain the puzzle behind magic girl's disappearance, and observe it directly. In fact, the characters that existed in the real world already joined in strange ways. What is more fascinating, a girl that neither existed in past memory nor future possibility, someone who should have no connection, no cause or effect to this world, joined seemlessly in your world. Well, there was never any need to search, from the begining you have made things easier for us, Akemi Homura. Even before this all started, you have always called the 'law of cycles' by the name of Kaname Madoka."

It is stated multiple times that the Isolation Field is what is preventing Madoka from interact with Homura's soul gem. Since she IS able to save Puella Magi from transform into witches (in fact that's what she does during Episode 12 and in the final part of Rebellion when Homura tagged her) She is the force that prevent it. So she can interact with the physical world at least partially. But even then the incubators were capable of isolating it and prevent Madoka. Who is suposse to be far more powerful than her. Interact with it

"This match what you have previously explained, the power of a 'witch'" - Kyubey

She just can't be seeing by the rest. Again. She is able to interact with the soul gems of the Puella Magi, destroy the witches and Homura, who had her power. Was capable of moving freely and rewritte the universe at will

Moving freely? Have you seen how big her dress is? lol, sorry but back on topic, your examples are shaking to say the least. "Being able to interact with soul gems" yeah, kind of the point of her wish, "Destroy witches and Homura"??? Homura? And she kills the witches before they're born i.e. soul gems , "Rewrite the Universe at will".... You don't have to be tangible to do that

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

"This match what you have previously explained, the power of a 'witch'" - Kyubey

Doesn't change absolutly anything. The quotes states that Kyubey and the incubators are responsables for the Isolation Field. And again, both Kyubey and the Incubators are not even universe level beings.

"Being able to interact with soul gems" yeah, kind of the point of her wish, "Destroy witches" "

So are you trying to argue that The Law of Cycles can't do anything that is not releated to Madoka's wish? because Homura disagrees

""Rewrite the Universe at will".... You don't have to be tangible to do that"

You also don't have to be tangible to erase and warp the universe. Again. Why Madoka is not able to erase the incubators or entropy and end the endless cycle of Puella Magi and Kyubey's evil deeds? and more important. She also don't have to be tangible to do something as simple as pass the Isolation Field. Which. Again, is a dimension soported by beings who are supossed to be way below her league.

 

[SomebodyData]

Doesn't change absolutly anything. The quotes states that Kyubey and the incubators are responsables for the Isolation Field. And again, both Kyubey and the Incubators are not even universe level beings.

Remember they don't even know what a witch is other than what Homura says, this would mean they would need to use the power from an actual witch, unless you're saying that they remember about everything that happened.

So are you trying to argue that The Law of Cycles can't do anything that is not releated to Madoka's wish? because Homura disagrees

Okay now this is just... You do realize that when Akuma Homura talks to Sayaka later on in the movie, she mentions that she only took the part that was Madoka, not her wish AKA the Law of Cycles(Which restricted her). Also are you tryng to say she could cleanse the planet from evil? because Madoka disagrees.

You also don't have to be tangible to erase and warp the universe. Again. Why Madoka is not able to erase the incubators or entropy and end the endless cycle of Puella Magi and Kyubey's evil deeds?

A- I don't know, Homura is the only shown to punish them, meaning Madoka also can, why she doesn't is unknown, (Maybe because magical girls are needed?)

and more important. She also don't have to be tangible to do something as simple as pass the Isolation Field. Which. Again, is a dimension soported by beings who are supossed to be way below her league.

A-Made, not supported, and you should re-read what the Isolation Zone is, it was made to block her out, to keep Homura's Soul Gem from the influence of the Law of Cycles

 

[Squid_peanut]

but is she taco speed, like IDK