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Type 8/9 Immortalities and Abilities Restriction

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@Yung You're basically saying that we should allow it to be restricted because it's strong. Very few people can counter High-Godly regen. Very few people can counter High 1-B erasure (Looking at you, GEOM). Very few people can counter tons of hax. Tell me, what makes Type 8/9 different than them?

If a match is a stomp because of these abilities, you simply don't do the match because it's visibly a bad one. You don't go out of your way to nerf the character.
 
@Saikou

Yes, I am saying we should allow it to be restricted because it is strong. We do the same with higher AP singular attacks, why not for sigular higher dimensional hax and immortality? (Both of which are much more of a problem than higher AP)

It opens a lot more oppertunities as far as battles go.

I usually don't like nerfing a character's ability at all (see here for my thoughts on that), but since it's been accepted in the community that higher dimensional = better in every way regardless of feats. It's constantly been used as a sort of Absolute Attack or Absolute Defense argument that really has no place in the vs community.

Also to clarify something, I'm talking about being able to only restrict 1 higher dimensional Hax or Immortality type of thing.

@Self

I'm not saying it should be restricted automatically, I'm saying that it should be allowed to be restricted if the OP desires it.
 
Then, as I've said int he OP, it's not a good reason. Techniques with higher AP are a different matter entirely (That I don't approve of that much, but that's not the point here).

So would equalizing AP, restricting normal hax and a myriad of other unfair restrictions. Doesn't make it a good decision.

Doesn't matter if you're restricting one, two, or ten abilities. You're still taking a crucial ability from the character in order to make them fight a character that they would stomp in normal circumstances. Adding other hax that aren't immortalities makes it even worse. What about a character who primarily uses such an ability in a fight? You couldn't consider a fight where said ability is restricted as "Notable" at all.
 
@Saikou

The point is consistency. If we allow people to restrict higher AP abilities, why can't they restrict higher dimensional hax?

Equalizing AP and restricting normal hax is ridiculous. I would never argue in favor of it (Well aside from fun type matches that aren't taken seriously).

My main problem is the NLF nature of higher dimensional abilities and the implications that they produce when given to lower dimensional characters.

Higher Dimensional abilities very nature are heavily reliant on NLF (Which is why I think we should allow it to be restricted).

In most cases of lower dimensional characters possesing higher dimensional abilities, their abilities aren't treated as being infinitely superior to 3-D within the context of the narrative, even with higher dimensional statements.(I don't really want to get into an in-depth discussion about it here, just know that I'm not a big fan of higher dimensional hax).

Not saying they should be banned or we should have some grand revision, I just think we should allow it to be restricted.

That was my argument talking about hax. Now on to immortality:

Now, let me ask a question...Why can't we restrict higher dimensional immortality? What would be the problem with it?

As long as it doesn't result in a stomp, I don't see why it's such a big deal. I think as a community the entire proposal is overly restrictive for the sake of being overly restrictive.

If higher dimensional immortality is not such an imortant ability to the character, and such a nerf that the fight becomes unreliable as a notable win or loss......IDK anymore...
 
1) Higher dimensional abilities aren't NLF

2) If the hax of a character is consistently shown as non-higher dimensional, then they get regular 3-D hax and the highest showings are disregarded
 
I can kinda see Yung's point. If a character is immortal via protection from another far stronger character, for example, then the immortality "belongs" to the protecting character rather than the protected character. It's similar (but not completely equivalent) to saying Lois Lane is nigh-invincible because Superman will always protect her.

That's type 4 rather than types 8 and 9, however. I wouldn't mind seeing type 4 restricted at the OP's request (with it being active by default), but immortality based on an object (type 8) or having one's true self exist on a different plane (type 9) is inherent to the character imo and shouldn't be restricted.
 
Would that not be the same as equal speed? Taking away a advantage for the sake of fair match without doing a drastic change lewd?.
 
To play counter to my own arugment with the type 4 immortality, consider the case of a character that makes a pact with or somehow enslaves a deity or higher-dimensional being (perhaps through some laws of the specific verse). The immortality would feel a lot more inherent to the character in that scenario despite being type 4.
 
@Yung

Because they're plainly not the same thing.

Like Kalt said, it's not NLF. That whole part of text of yours relies on the fact that it's a "NLF", when it's just really strong.

Because it's arbitrary to specifically allow these kinds of ability to be disabled just because "they're strong", when plenty of other abilities are also powerful and hard to counter. It pretty much contradicts our usual rules.

@Triple Not really the point of the argument.

@J-Man Speed Equal isn't the same as restricting an ability, especially if you let the OP just nullify a specific ability at will.
 
@Saikou I don't see how. You're saying the restriction of the immortality is arbitrary, but I'm arguing that it isn't arbitrary in the case of a type 4 immortal because the immortality (generally) isn't inherent to the immortalized character. It's inherent to the character providing the immortality.

Thus in that case I think there's a fair argument to allow the ability to be restricted.
 
The problem is that such "assist" abilities go beyond just immortalities. Plenty of characters gets abilities from direct interventions from higher beings that aren't immortality. Nullifying Type 4 immortality based on higher dimensional Gods just because of the "Gods helping the fighter" makes no sense if we don't nullify any abilities requiring the powers of a God to be used.
 
@Saikou

Saying that one character's death manipulation is stronger than another character's death manipulation simply because it worked on a character who is stated to exist across the 11th dimension seems like blatant NLF to me(Especially when the former has better feats overall).

For example: There's a certain character from a certain novel who uses death manipulation for everything. He can "kill" possibilities. He can "Kill" concepts, non-living entities, non-existent entities ect.

The power is explained as death manipulation, and not any kind of erasure ability because it doesn't erase things, it just makes them stop fuctioning, permanently.

Does it make sense for characters to kill possibilities? Not really, but we also have a guy on this wiki who can atomize possibilities.

What was your whole point with that?

Why, I'm glad you asked!!

A character with actual supporting feats Vs. A character with an ability which abuses the system created on the wiki to create an accepted form of NLF.

The truth of the matter is this: We here on vsbattles.wikia treat higher dimensional characters and abilities as being infinitely above 3-D, but most stories in question don't treat their characters like this. The fact that a 3-D character can harm a 4th or 5th dimensional character with anything, is proof of this enough. An actual higher dimensional character should be infinitely more powerful, infinitely faster, infinitely more intelligent etc. The 3-D character should not even be able to interact with the higher dimensional character's true form at all, unless the higher dimensional character willed it (And even that is questionable).

Then it comes into question, "Is it a feat for the weaker character, or an anti-feat for the stronger one?"

This is talking about characters whose abilities are scaled from higher dimensional characters. I don't have too much of a problem with 3-D characters who have actual tier 2 and up feats.

I know I'm mostly on my own when it comes to this way of thinking, but that's fine.
 
Actually, not a lot of characters have tier 1 powers in tier not 1. The masadaverse people who do are either avatars of tier 1s or about to become tier 1, and in 40K Kharn just has the backing of a legit tier 1, even then it's not the full extent of his power, and GEOM is another avatar case, as well as being an anomaly in general. Having an instakill erasure isn't even super broken considered how people have stuff like that without even getting into tier 1 hax. Yvraine, to my knowledge, doesn't actually have tier 1 deathhax since what she did used a ritual she can't exactly just replicate whenever. As for DC, the only ones I can think of are Jill presto, who is a tier 1 usually, qnd cain who already is unusable so not much changes here. Really the only problematic case I see is 1440, since this gives him 1B everything as opposed to just AP and hax, but whatever. Just put him against 1Bs then. I feel like a lot of people forget incap is still a thing, and a lot of these regenners can just be constantly killed for about a day or so with no chance for them to act for an incap. In general, I don't feel like this was as needed as speed equal stuff. While that's inevitable due to how speed discrepancy affects far more people, the characters affected by this already generally were only put against people who could deal with their tier 1 stuff, with the exception of 1440. Overall, I'm all right with this
 
@Saikou Note that I'm not talking about cases of summoning/enslavement. If a character has control over a more powerful being somehow, then I see no issue with considering the proxy powers inherent to the summoning/enslaving character in those cases.

The above cases aside, could you provide some examples?

And to reiterate, I'm not saying this should be restricted by default. I'm saying it should be an allowed option for a versus thread creator.
 
The truth of the matter is this: We here on vsbattles.wikia treat higher dimensional characters and abilities as being infinitely above 3-D, but most stories in question don't treat their characters like this.

That's pretty much why Bill was downgraded from High 1-C yeah.

You aren't considered a 4-D or above entity unless the verse treats it that way.

The fact that a 3-D character can harm a 4th or 5th dimensional character with anything, is proof of this enough. An actual higher dimensional character should be infinitely more powerful, infinitely faster, infinitely more intelligent etc. The 3-D character should not even be able to interact with the higher dimensional character's true form at all, unless the higher dimensional character willed it (And even that is questionable).

Which is why you need to look at it following a case by case basis. Homura doesn't have 2-A mind hax because she mind haxed a tier 2 and that's it. She has it because she has other powers working on the same scale, some sort of connection with said tier 2, and because mind haxing said tier 2 is treated as a ridiculously impressive feat.
 
I agree with this. I personally feel nothing should be restricted, and if something is being restricted in a match, it should not be added to their profiles.

Because you are just nerfing a character for the sake of a "fair fight". If someone wants to do it, no problem but those matches should just be for fun, not to be added to their profiles.

Now, speed is a different thing.
 
Shouldn't restricting higher AP singular abilities against the rules for maches to be added? Its the same logic (you are nerfing a character ability because its too strong)
 
DANGIT PEOPLE


NOW WE CAN'T HAVE LANCE STALEMATING REINHARD


YOU DAMN MANIACS
 
I disagree. I see it in the same vain as restricting powers that put people in a higher key. If they are regenerating from an existence on a higher plane, then it basically might as well be a match with a being on that plane. If you are a character with type 8 immortality, then you aren't simply fighting that character any more, you are now fighting that character, and whatever they are relient on.

Put it like this, if there is City Block+ Character Billy Billiams vs Building level Wihelm-von-Notamasadaversecharacter, who has a higher existence on the 69th dimension, then this match basically isn't a match between a City Block+ character vs a Building Level character; its a match between a City Block+ character and a 69th dimensional being who happens to be holding a 3D Building level stick to poke a City Block character with. See the issue?

If there is match between Town Level character Shovel Man vs Small City Level Wolfy the depressed Wearwolf who has Type 8 immortality relient on the existence of Hilbert the Living Hilbert space, then its not a fight between a Town level character vs a Small City level character, its a match between a Town Level vs a Small City Level character teamed with a Hyperversal+ character. Or Beast #420 who has a relient immortality based on the existence of life on earth. No matter who they face, they will essentially have life on earth on their side in every match, unless a character gets prep to commit genocide across the earth before the match even starts
 
That was pretty much the reason that lead to the restriction in the first place yes.

Some matches becoming "two 3-D characters fight to the death, but one's win condition is beating up a tier 1 being"
 
Self Love said:
No one is forcing you to put your character against such immortality. I still agree with the changes.
Click to expand...
point is, it really miss represents the characters. Like Reinhard having relient immortality on Mercerius. Now you can never have a solo reinhard match. It also doesn't show how he would fight in the show, and since team matches are supposed to be banned anyway, you either end up with only these characters being allowed to have a team mate, or them being banned from vs threads entirely for something that does not represent the character's actual combat potential
 
Having one's existence be on a higher dimensional plane is an ability inherent to the character, so I don't agree with restricting that even if it is extremely powerful. Ditto for immortality via existence as a concept or immortality via an object.

I do subscribe to the idea that type 4 immortality is essentially two characters versus one, though, so I think it should be allowed to be restricted (but not by default) in notable fights.
 
can't the opponent just incap or BFR a type 8 immortal if killing isn't an option? (In cases where that is possible at least)
 
Andytrenom said:
can't the opponent just incap or BFR a type 8 immortal if killing isn't an option? (In cases where that is possible at least)
Click to expand...
I guess, but that's a bit messy since that isn't necessarily possible in every case.

As Iapitus noted, the issue is that type 4 immortality doesn't reflect the strength of the character themselves, how they fight, and so on: It reflects the strength of another being. Allowing the immortality to be restricted in such cases would allow you to examine the inherent strength of the character.
 
This thread is about type 8/9 immortality, not type 4.

Types 8 and 9 reflect the strength of those characters.
 
I'm not really getting what you mean by that?

The difference between the type 8 of Reinhard Heydrich and the type 4 of Horus Lupercal is pretty much only the degree of 1-A of the beings granting it. Both are "if killed this 1-A character will resurrect you"
 
Type 8 can be dependent on objects or concepts (not on protection from higher beings).

Type 9 is when the true self of a being is on a different plane (not protection from another higher being, they themselves exist on a different plane).

However, I'm not even fully convinced that characters have to be based on their own strength and not reflect other characters at all. Some wh40k characters have powers granted from gods, then there's SCP-1440 who has some powers/resistances innately, some won from higher-dimensional beings through 1440's own skill, and some granted from higher-dimensional beings. But all of those outside influences are still part of those characters.
 
^ Again.

You can still make those threads, but they shouldn't be added. Especially if you restrict something important like their immortality.
 
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