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Type 8/9 Immortalities and Abilities Restriction
- Thread starter Saikou_The_Lewd_King
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I agree with Saikou. The more restrictions, the less reflective of the characters' shown capacities. I don't even think speed equalization is great as a concept, IMO it's just necessary and completely justified because not having it shrinks the pool of possible battles so much.
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F A L S E E Q U I V A L E N C YSelf Love said:
I still agree, but I think Iapitus has the point.
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Genuinely surprised this didn't get a highlight. I agree completely.
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Saik makes a compelling argument. Personally, I think that the opposite of what we currently have should be done. Restricting abilities should've never been done, but we shouldn't restrict the nature of one's existence.
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Ok so i learned about this and i disagree, like quite a bit.
Let's say we take this guy with a pretty potent 3D hax and a 1-A reliant imortality. This guy is put up in a fight vs literally anyone from tier 11 to tier 1-B, he stomps everything because, no one has win conditions (let's say we take incap off). Get to 1-A and everyone stomps him. What is the point of such characters?
Type 8 or 9 immortalities are nice to know, it's a good info on a character, though allowing it in battles is not ok because that is not one's own ability. Drawing upon someone else's powers is ok because only x character can do that (only jill can draw upon the basanos), but immortality is a different issue. Immortality is something that other people give you, constantly give you. That is outside help, which we don't allow in vs battles.
A certain character wants to see if he's stronger than Beatrice, not if he can overpower beatrice reinhard and mercurius all at once. That's not a 1v1. That is no different than plot powers, they have the type 8 or 9 because the plot decided so. Take them into a world where no one exists and those immortalities are nulled.
It is a bad idea at best to have a type 8 immortality. It's like saying "Zenkichi has type 8 immortality because no matter what you do Ajimu (she will bring back anyone) will bring him back, so yeah good luck beating him (i mean his fodder tier without any hax)". Though take other fodder like....Luffy and he'll stomp the shit out of Zenkichi, though Zenkichi will still win because Luffy will die of stamina before Zenkichi stops reviving. I guess Zenkichi solos One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Dragon Ball Super, whatever verse you can think of, because yeah type 8 immortality eh?
Type 8/9 Immortalities are a bad idea to begin with but not restricting it is an even worse idea.
Let's say we take this guy with a pretty potent 3D hax and a 1-A reliant imortality. This guy is put up in a fight vs literally anyone from tier 11 to tier 1-B, he stomps everything because, no one has win conditions (let's say we take incap off). Get to 1-A and everyone stomps him. What is the point of such characters?
Type 8 or 9 immortalities are nice to know, it's a good info on a character, though allowing it in battles is not ok because that is not one's own ability. Drawing upon someone else's powers is ok because only x character can do that (only jill can draw upon the basanos), but immortality is a different issue. Immortality is something that other people give you, constantly give you. That is outside help, which we don't allow in vs battles.
A certain character wants to see if he's stronger than Beatrice, not if he can overpower beatrice reinhard and mercurius all at once. That's not a 1v1. That is no different than plot powers, they have the type 8 or 9 because the plot decided so. Take them into a world where no one exists and those immortalities are nulled.
It is a bad idea at best to have a type 8 immortality. It's like saying "Zenkichi has type 8 immortality because no matter what you do Ajimu (she will bring back anyone) will bring him back, so yeah good luck beating him (i mean his fodder tier without any hax)". Though take other fodder like....Luffy and he'll stomp the shit out of Zenkichi, though Zenkichi will still win because Luffy will die of stamina before Zenkichi stops reviving. I guess Zenkichi solos One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Dragon Ball Super, whatever verse you can think of, because yeah type 8 immortality eh?
Type 8/9 Immortalities are a bad idea to begin with but not restricting it is an even worse idea.
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no one has win conditions (let's say we take incap off)
Then don't take incap off. Also there's still KO and BFR.
What is the point of such characters?
That's up to the author, but the point of this wiki is to index those characters as they were written, and portray them accurately in fights.
though allowing it in battles is not one's own ability. Drawing upon someone else's powers is ok because only x character can do that (only jill can draw upon the basanos), but immortality is a different issue. Immortality is something that other people give you, constantly give you. That is outside help, which we don't allow in vs battles.
It isn't one's ability, but it's an innate, intrinsic, inalienable part of one's character. Actually, sometimes it IS one's own ability, they are reliant on the existence of a certain concept or object because of their own power. Often only "x" character has that higher/reliant immortality as well.
If you want to ban it for outside help then quite a few WH40K characters lose abilities repeatedly and continuously granted to them by higher gods. I'm pretty sure there are other verses with stuff like this (abilities other than immortality continuously granted to them by higher beings), should those be restricted too?
It speaks volumes that the only ludicrous example you can come up with relies on a character who doesn't have type 8 having type 8.
Then don't take incap off. Also there's still KO and BFR.
What is the point of such characters?
That's up to the author, but the point of this wiki is to index those characters as they were written, and portray them accurately in fights.
though allowing it in battles is not one's own ability. Drawing upon someone else's powers is ok because only x character can do that (only jill can draw upon the basanos), but immortality is a different issue. Immortality is something that other people give you, constantly give you. That is outside help, which we don't allow in vs battles.
It isn't one's ability, but it's an innate, intrinsic, inalienable part of one's character. Actually, sometimes it IS one's own ability, they are reliant on the existence of a certain concept or object because of their own power. Often only "x" character has that higher/reliant immortality as well.
If you want to ban it for outside help then quite a few WH40K characters lose abilities repeatedly and continuously granted to them by higher gods. I'm pretty sure there are other verses with stuff like this (abilities other than immortality continuously granted to them by higher beings), should those be restricted too?
It speaks volumes that the only ludicrous example you can come up with relies on a character who doesn't have type 8 having type 8.
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I'd also like to point out that you don't have to have a higher dimensional deity saying no every time you die to have Type 8.
Mr. Wednesday has Type 8 and he's reliant on the faith and belief of human beings.
Mr. Wednesday has Type 8 and he's reliant on the faith and belief of human beings.
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^Sir Ovens said:
I agree with this. This is something different. Characters that exist as long as something exists (im not too sure about hope and stuff, idk how i feel about how to count that in battles), so if x character cannot die unless the universe is destroyed for example, then yes, that is type 8 that counts. Because it is not outside help as much as it is, "what you are made of". The x character is basically just an entity made up of the universe's nrg so unless you can erase the universe to end the energy than he cannot die, because he always has a body to create out of the nrg he can get. That's ok imo, though having a completely other character just help you in battles by reviving you is a different story.
As i said Goku doesn't have type 8 based on his friends since they will bring him back via DB, Medaka characters don't have type 8 based off of Ajimu which will bring anyone back, all of this counts as outside help in our wiki ofc, though i don't see why having a 1-A entity just constantly revive you doesn't count as "outside help" and counts as "fair".
And @opening. High-Godly is not similar to type 8 by a LONG shot. High Godly is your own ability. If Majin Buu had High-Godly somehow (don't ask how), that wouldn't make it unfair, it is literally impossible for you to beat him, he can just regenerate, though that's not to say "someone else regenerates him". This is not about "what it acomplishes", it's about "how it is done".
Again my point, having someone constantly revive you is outside help which shouldn't be allowed in 1v1 vs battles. I mean if i want to make a match i want it to be the match between:
Adlet vs Reinhard
not
Adlet vs Reinhard and Mercurius
It is literally like fighting 2 dudes at the same time, AND there is also the fact that, if you are reliant on someone else's existence then there is literally no way for you to die. If x character beats y character who has type 8 from z character than y character is completely immune to x character's kill conditions. No matter how strong x is. It's a 1v1 so x can only fight and/or kill y he can't fight z, and without ending z he can't end y. So y is completely immortal by any means (unless it's a REALLY special case).
And my last point @Agnaa, it is pretty dumb for a tier 1B to have only the BFR or incap option vs a tier 10 dude with type 8 immortality. It's a ******** soultion for something that should not be allowed. If he has a High-Godly regen then good for him, you just happen to gotten laid with some 1-A Goddess and now she has her eyes on you to revive you...yeah no, that's not a 1v1. Might aswell add complete immunity to anything if we find some character that gets complete help from someone else. "What you just killed him and transfered his remaning to a different dimension which you then crushed and erased his concept from the world in a way so that it can never exist anymore, and if he does come back then he'll be into an eternal BFR while getting mind haxxed from every possible power that exists?.......HAH! That character constantly gets help from this tier -3 character so that tier -3 character just undid all that, erased the opponent and his verse and now is drinking tea with her babe....we should totally keep outside help".
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You could also say that anyone vs Khar is like vs Kharn and Khorne.
Goku and Medaka don't have type 8 because it's not a part of their character that as soon as they die they immediately get resurrected by their friends. It's something that their friends could and usually do end up doing to revive them, but it isn't an intrinsic automatic part of their character.
SCP-1440 is banned from death on a 1-B level by The Brothers Death, who actively ban him from death as a punishment. This is a part of his character. A character using a weapon made by another character isn't outside help. This is effectively the same thing. Sure, you may be fighting character A and whatever weapon character B made, but the weapon character B made is part of character A's existence as a fictional being.
The reason why these type 8's are different from Goku/Medaka is the difference between a character A who has a sword made by character B as part of their standard equipment, and someone saying "well what if character B made a better sword like they do for character C?". Hopefully this helps clear things up on why it's not exactly outside help.
it is pretty dumb for a tier 1B to have only the BFR or incap option vs a tier 10 dude with type 8 immortality
If the tier 10's abilities justify it, I don't see why it is so dumb. If there was a tier 10 ghost that could exist outside of the universe, would it be dumb that a 1B would only have the "EE incorporeals" option of winning? It's uncommon, I'll give you that, but just because it's uncommon doesn't mean we shouldn't count it if it's a part of their characters.
Your part about tier -3 outside help is kind of... Dumb? What if a character gets tier -3 power armor that makes them immune to everything, physically they're just tier 10 but the power armor stops anything conceivable from killing them. Coming up with a crazy hypothetical to discredit a rule is pointless when it could be done for any rule.
Goku and Medaka don't have type 8 because it's not a part of their character that as soon as they die they immediately get resurrected by their friends. It's something that their friends could and usually do end up doing to revive them, but it isn't an intrinsic automatic part of their character.
SCP-1440 is banned from death on a 1-B level by The Brothers Death, who actively ban him from death as a punishment. This is a part of his character. A character using a weapon made by another character isn't outside help. This is effectively the same thing. Sure, you may be fighting character A and whatever weapon character B made, but the weapon character B made is part of character A's existence as a fictional being.
The reason why these type 8's are different from Goku/Medaka is the difference between a character A who has a sword made by character B as part of their standard equipment, and someone saying "well what if character B made a better sword like they do for character C?". Hopefully this helps clear things up on why it's not exactly outside help.
it is pretty dumb for a tier 1B to have only the BFR or incap option vs a tier 10 dude with type 8 immortality
If the tier 10's abilities justify it, I don't see why it is so dumb. If there was a tier 10 ghost that could exist outside of the universe, would it be dumb that a 1B would only have the "EE incorporeals" option of winning? It's uncommon, I'll give you that, but just because it's uncommon doesn't mean we shouldn't count it if it's a part of their characters.
Your part about tier -3 outside help is kind of... Dumb? What if a character gets tier -3 power armor that makes them immune to everything, physically they're just tier 10 but the power armor stops anything conceivable from killing them. Coming up with a crazy hypothetical to discredit a rule is pointless when it could be done for any rule.
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@Agnee
A weapon is different from an actual existence reviving you. Im not negative toward the weapon reliance, but im not pozitive either. Though a weapon reliance is part of you. It doesn't matter who made Thor's hammer, it belongs to him, he can use and do whatever he wants. That is not the case with a completely separate being that exists outside of you keeping you alive.
A csgo fight is 1 player vs 1 other, not 1 foder vs 1 fodder + the pro that is carrying him. That is literally what we'r doing here. Mercurius doesn't belong to Reinhard, Khorne doesn't belong to Kharn, Basanos doesn't belong to Jill. It is MUCH different from weapons, as these guys can't just control these beings and use them however they see fit. These beings have just taken a liking to them and happen to help them when needed, though they don't exist in a 1v1 fight. I wanna see whether Goku can beat Kharn that gets the null from Khorne, not see if Goku can bypass the immortality from a high 1-B being.
As i said "not restricting" type 8 imortalities is dumb, useless, unproductive and boring at best. "Your character can fodderize my character into oblivion and back....HAHA Jokes On You, he is buddy buddy with an omnipotent character, so he stomps the wiki". Tfw you have an omnipotent being in your discord group and now you are a normal human without hax who can solo any verse amirite?
A weapon is different from an actual existence reviving you. Im not negative toward the weapon reliance, but im not pozitive either. Though a weapon reliance is part of you. It doesn't matter who made Thor's hammer, it belongs to him, he can use and do whatever he wants. That is not the case with a completely separate being that exists outside of you keeping you alive.
A csgo fight is 1 player vs 1 other, not 1 foder vs 1 fodder + the pro that is carrying him. That is literally what we'r doing here. Mercurius doesn't belong to Reinhard, Khorne doesn't belong to Kharn, Basanos doesn't belong to Jill. It is MUCH different from weapons, as these guys can't just control these beings and use them however they see fit. These beings have just taken a liking to them and happen to help them when needed, though they don't exist in a 1v1 fight. I wanna see whether Goku can beat Kharn that gets the null from Khorne, not see if Goku can bypass the immortality from a high 1-B being.
As i said "not restricting" type 8 imortalities is dumb, useless, unproductive and boring at best. "Your character can fodderize my character into oblivion and back....HAHA Jokes On You, he is buddy buddy with an omnipotent character, so he stomps the wiki". Tfw you have an omnipotent being in your discord group and now you are a normal human without hax who can solo any verse amirite?
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Sure, a weapon is different from an actual existence reviving you, but they'd both be considered outside help if they aren't an intrinsic part of that character.
Good thing vsbattles aren't csgo.
Should Ryuko have Senketsu removed from her arsenal because Senketsu's a sentient piece of clothing who decides to work with and fight with her for the entirety of the KLK canon?
If you want to change it that Kharn and tons of other 40k characters have their 1-B help removed then you can try, but I'm pretty sure everyone's seen these exact same arguments multiple times before.
It may be dumb, unproductive, and boring, but it's also the best way of representing the character. There are tons of characters with OP hax that make battles boring, they shouldn't automatically be restricted as they're an important part of their being.
Good thing vsbattles aren't csgo.
Should Ryuko have Senketsu removed from her arsenal because Senketsu's a sentient piece of clothing who decides to work with and fight with her for the entirety of the KLK canon?
If you want to change it that Kharn and tons of other 40k characters have their 1-B help removed then you can try, but I'm pretty sure everyone's seen these exact same arguments multiple times before.
It may be dumb, unproductive, and boring, but it's also the best way of representing the character. There are tons of characters with OP hax that make battles boring, they shouldn't automatically be restricted as they're an important part of their being.
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Not hax, im talking about immortality here. Hax is something you got from another being and can now use to your liking or have it as a passive whatever the case. The immortality is LITERALLY outside of you, outside of your control, outside of your process of thought, outside of your existence. It literally brings another character in the fight.
And no it's not the best way to represent a character as it doesn't represent the character at all, it represents the god that's behind the character, i know Reinhard stomps Alucard (hellsing) though i wanna know whether Beatrice can (just an example). What's the point of having other pages doe? I mean if everything is gonna be relient on Reinhard, why do we need Wolfgang, Machina, Beatrice etc, we can just have Reinhard soley represent the Dies Irae/KKK verse. And your Ryuoko example, no. It's her armour, despite being a sentient being it's still her armor, there are other cases like that and it's equipment which serves her or works for her, not literally jokes on her existence and keeps her alive in whatever scenario.
And again type 8 immortality is unbeatable and unreasonable. Let's say we have Reinhard vs Ajimu, Ajimu gets the 1st move via her skills and stomps Reinhard, erases him, [insert win condition] etc. Now Reinhard comes back, because Mercurius. Ajimu is unable to kill Reinhard without killing Mercurius first. This is 1-A Ajimu so she's stronger than Mercurius, she would ez win in a fight, though she is still unable to kill Reinhard because she is not allowed to fight Mercurius, she CANNOT fight him, because he's not in the fight. So despite this character being able to stomp the verse she cannot kill some guys because since she is not allowed to fight the dude who is keeping him alive, and therefore is unable to win.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is why type 8 immortality HAS to be restricted, the same thing cannot happen with hax. So we get Hajun fight Reinhard. Reinhard wins cus (let's say Hajun is only capable of killing and erasing) Hajun can't end him, since he needs to end Mercurius but he can't do such thing cus Mercurius is not in the fight. Yeah, type 8 immortality seems reasonable.
And no it's not the best way to represent a character as it doesn't represent the character at all, it represents the god that's behind the character, i know Reinhard stomps Alucard (hellsing) though i wanna know whether Beatrice can (just an example). What's the point of having other pages doe? I mean if everything is gonna be relient on Reinhard, why do we need Wolfgang, Machina, Beatrice etc, we can just have Reinhard soley represent the Dies Irae/KKK verse. And your Ryuoko example, no. It's her armour, despite being a sentient being it's still her armor, there are other cases like that and it's equipment which serves her or works for her, not literally jokes on her existence and keeps her alive in whatever scenario.
And again type 8 immortality is unbeatable and unreasonable. Let's say we have Reinhard vs Ajimu, Ajimu gets the 1st move via her skills and stomps Reinhard, erases him, [insert win condition] etc. Now Reinhard comes back, because Mercurius. Ajimu is unable to kill Reinhard without killing Mercurius first. This is 1-A Ajimu so she's stronger than Mercurius, she would ez win in a fight, though she is still unable to kill Reinhard because she is not allowed to fight Mercurius, she CANNOT fight him, because he's not in the fight. So despite this character being able to stomp the verse she cannot kill some guys because since she is not allowed to fight the dude who is keeping him alive, and therefore is unable to win.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is why type 8 immortality HAS to be restricted, the same thing cannot happen with hax. So we get Hajun fight Reinhard. Reinhard wins cus (let's say Hajun is only capable of killing and erasing) Hajun can't end him, since he needs to end Mercurius but he can't do such thing cus Mercurius is not in the fight. Yeah, type 8 immortality seems reasonable.
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...
...
"1-A Ajimu"
"she's stronger than Mercurius"
But no, if something was capable of killing Mercurius and was fighting Rein, it could do that. These battles do not "exist in a vacuum" to use the saying
...
"1-A Ajimu"
"she's stronger than Mercurius"
But no, if something was capable of killing Mercurius and was fighting Rein, it could do that. These battles do not "exist in a vacuum" to use the saying
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Not hax, im talking about immortality here. Hax is something you got from another being and can now use to your liking or have it as a passive whatever the case.
A lot of the people I've mentioned have some sort of "hax" that's out of their control (automatically done to opponents they face), or is at least shown/stated to still be done by that god, and not by themselves; if the god would stop providing it it would stop working.
And no it's not the best way to represent a character as it doesn't represent the character at all
It does, it represents what it would be like to face that character.
And your Ryuoko example, no. It's her armour, despite being a sentient being it's still her armor, there are other cases like that and it's equipment which serves her or works for her, not literally jokes on her existence and keeps her alive in whatever scenario.
Senketsu willingly acts like her armor. I believe in one point in the story he refused. Senketsu talks to Ryuko often, and can make decisions on his own, and he chooses to act as her armor.
A lot of the people I've mentioned have some sort of "hax" that's out of their control (automatically done to opponents they face), or is at least shown/stated to still be done by that god, and not by themselves; if the god would stop providing it it would stop working.
And no it's not the best way to represent a character as it doesn't represent the character at all
It does, it represents what it would be like to face that character.
And your Ryuoko example, no. It's her armour, despite being a sentient being it's still her armor, there are other cases like that and it's equipment which serves her or works for her, not literally jokes on her existence and keeps her alive in whatever scenario.
Senketsu willingly acts like her armor. I believe in one point in the story he refused. Senketsu talks to Ryuko often, and can make decisions on his own, and he chooses to act as her armor.
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That's why it's just an example. If im not mistaken i can make a tier High 1-A Adlet Mayer if it's to prove a point. "let's say we have" You missed that part m8.Monarch Laciel said:...
...
"1-A Ajimu"
"she's stronger than Mercurius"
But no, if something was capable of killing Mercurius and was fighting Rein, it could do that. These battles do not "exist in a vacuum" to use the saying
And these battles do "exist in a vacuum". The Dragon Balls aren't an option in Dragon Ball match ups, and other bullshit like go seeking help to another character is also not allowed, as they are treated as non existent and-or unreachable by the members that are fighting. Medaka can't just go ask Hanten for a skill to 1 shot BB and then use it to win. Reinhard can't go ask Mercurius to obliterate his opponent. etc etc
I don't ever recall having been said that stuff like that can happen. So you're saying is super sayan 3 goku fights Beerus, Goku stomps cus he can just 1 shot the kai who is responsable for Beerus' existence and like that 1 shot beerus. Hmm interesting to know.
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^ ^ ^ ^ ^Agnaa said:
My point exactly. TOAA doesn't go fight goku when he's in a matchup vs Medaka, even though he's TOAA. You don't just go beat up other people. Same case applies to type 8 immortality. You don't just go beat up the god beind someone because he's unreachable, you are not allowed to fight him, he is not your opponent. What this means is that type 8 immortality is basically unbeatable right now. The previous rule was good. It was fun to know stuff about a character like type 8 immortality but they should never be used in vs battles, it is not ok. Keeping it only as info is ok ofc.
This is my input on this, i have no idea why this thread was made, i mean why someone needs to have type 8 immortalities in a matchup.
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you are totally allowed to fight the source of the type 8 if you are able to. THing is, almost everyone with a helpful type 8 has it from something way stronger than it, so its not a viable option.
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You are allowed to fight other people?Wokistan said:
So if crancked up Gil fights Jill, he can just chain The Basanos to win since he can't chain Jill due to her lack of divinity? Never heard that in any case.
Also it's true that it's something way stronger, still doesn't change the point. Type 8 Immortality should be restricted by rule cus it breaks the fight completely or at least be allowed to be restricted.
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Plenty of other abilities can also "break" a fight. Doesn't mean we should let them be disabled. I don't know how many times I've said it, but that's still a point I've yet seen be countered.
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Ok so now to the best part.
You guys think it's just...you know..."fine", to allow a verse god figure just watch over the fight? Just have anything (no matter how much powerful than the person that has type 8 immort) just draw because there is this god just not allowing it to die?
It is not one's ability to have typ 8 immortality. It makes fights dull and that will basically be the most viewed point about a character.
You see some unhaxed tier 8 go up against...idk Machina, and Machina draws because the tier 8 dude has a tier 0 reliant immortality. I guess it will make fights more fun eh?
Xeno Goku vs Monarch of Pointland after he gets type 8 from Featherine....Draw. Ok then so be it.
You guys think it's just...you know..."fine", to allow a verse god figure just watch over the fight? Just have anything (no matter how much powerful than the person that has type 8 immort) just draw because there is this god just not allowing it to die?
It is not one's ability to have typ 8 immortality. It makes fights dull and that will basically be the most viewed point about a character.
You see some unhaxed tier 8 go up against...idk Machina, and Machina draws because the tier 8 dude has a tier 0 reliant immortality. I guess it will make fights more fun eh?
Xeno Goku vs Monarch of Pointland after he gets type 8 from Featherine....Draw. Ok then so be it.
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Machina can get around that type of stuff. And yes. If you don't like the match, just don't make it. You realize stuff like incap, bfr, mindhax etc still exists, right? Some characters can ignore stuff like that entirely as is. Mismatches exist, learn to deal with that.
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Yes, "missmatch" exists but do we really need to just boost them to infinity and beyond?
What are the good points about all of this anyway?
What are the good points about all of this anyway?
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Not arbitrarily gimping such a huge part of a character because we personally don't like how they function. I've already listed several ways around it, several people can bypass it entirely, and above all else, it's misleading to say one character wins over another when they wouldn't otherwise be able to deal with resurrection.
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One character wins over the other. Though that one character can't win over both the character and the god behind it. It is only "inside the plot" that these things should be taken into account. Featherine would stomp Medaka, not inside her verse though, cus she's the MC and absolutely cannot lose. So that would mean that Featherine truly is weaker than Medaka? This is a similar case.Wokistan said:
Featherine stomps Medaka. Though she will get stomped if Medaka gets her type 8 immortality and power from the ******* author itself. So a result like this can actually be called "accurate"? (let's just assume Medaka has that author bullshit in this wiki). Cus i mean 1v1 Featherine stomps, when a god tier comes into the midst of battle... it all turns upside down, BECAUSE of the god tier. And this would fit perfectly to your sentence.
it's misleading to say one character wins over another when they wouldn't otherwise
Featherine would never win against Medaka due to her main character trait, like in no case would she win vs Medaka, that doesn't make it acceptable, fair or even normal though. It's completely ********. And this is just a bit greater in scale of what we are doing. Seriously this is not ok.
Wokistan
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Medaka has no tier 0 type 8, and literally any other type of type 8 featherine can easily bypass. You can't use Medaka as an example meant to apply to the majority of fictions anyways, due to the more metafictional nature of the story. If a character can't permanently beat another one due to higher dimensional type 8, well too bad for them. I'd like to note that even if Medaka theoretically has tier 0 type 8, Featherine has innumerable ways to incap, BFR, mindhax, etc. I see nothing wrong here.
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Im talking about Medaka's true The Hero. If Featherine were to be part of the canon Medaka Box story. She would pale before Medaka for the sole reason of "the author wants her to", that's what i mean. That't not Medaka that Featherine pales to though, it's the author behind her. So if that were the case are you willing to say it's accurate to say "Medaka wins vs Featherine"?
Actually here is a better example. Ajimu and Medaka. Ajimu stomps Medaka (almost any version of her), though she gets dessimated by Medaka in verse, because there is a tuff mother f-er guarding Medaka. Though that's not to say Medaka is sronger than Ajimu. It is just a plot convinience Medaka has (medaka has an extreme case ofc since it's the author itself rather than a simple god figure), not something that should be counted in vs battles. No one says "Ajimu is weaker than Medaka" literally ask anyone in this wiki, and no one will say that. And sure as hell no one will say "it's accurate to say Medaka is stronger than Ajimu".
A similar case is with the type 8 immort some people have. It's not wolfgang that is unbeatable by Zeno, it's the plotted wolfgang that is immune because the plot made him a part of Reinhard (etc etc). It is not him itself that [insert character] is scared to fight, it's because there is this inside the verse the author did in order to keep these plebs alive.
I mean i don't mind to keep the type 8 unrestricted (you know im a Medaka main when it comes to high tier stuff and she has her ways around this stuff), but i seriously find this a bad idea. If you have some kind of a good reason for doing this then ok, but come on dude "accurate" is not one of them. It's not an accurate fight between 2 ppl if you include 50 trillion gods helping 1 side and none helping the other side, it is seriously unprofessional to include "story induced" non "coming from self" and non "main character traits" stuff like this in a fight. As i said this is not that much different from "ppl will resurrect goku if he dies, since each respective verse exists so they get theirusual help from outside". I am currently against this.
Actually here is a better example. Ajimu and Medaka. Ajimu stomps Medaka (almost any version of her), though she gets dessimated by Medaka in verse, because there is a tuff mother f-er guarding Medaka. Though that's not to say Medaka is sronger than Ajimu. It is just a plot convinience Medaka has (medaka has an extreme case ofc since it's the author itself rather than a simple god figure), not something that should be counted in vs battles. No one says "Ajimu is weaker than Medaka" literally ask anyone in this wiki, and no one will say that. And sure as hell no one will say "it's accurate to say Medaka is stronger than Ajimu".
A similar case is with the type 8 immort some people have. It's not wolfgang that is unbeatable by Zeno, it's the plotted wolfgang that is immune because the plot made him a part of Reinhard (etc etc). It is not him itself that [insert character] is scared to fight, it's because there is this inside the verse the author did in order to keep these plebs alive.
I mean i don't mind to keep the type 8 unrestricted (you know im a Medaka main when it comes to high tier stuff and she has her ways around this stuff), but i seriously find this a bad idea. If you have some kind of a good reason for doing this then ok, but come on dude "accurate" is not one of them. It's not an accurate fight between 2 ppl if you include 50 trillion gods helping 1 side and none helping the other side, it is seriously unprofessional to include "story induced" non "coming from self" and non "main character traits" stuff like this in a fight. As i said this is not that much different from "ppl will resurrect goku if he dies, since each respective verse exists so they get their
Wokistan
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1: No, because Authors=/=in verse tier 0s, and we don't allow PIS in vs debating as is. If that would be a thing that somehow got accepted, it'd just mean massive Medaka upgrades.
2: You don't have to be stronger than someone to win. Just look at Ahzek Ahrima vs Khârn the Betrayer, or any of the other anti meta characters. Ahzek can do stuff that Kharn could only dream of, yet a fight between those two, assuming Ahriman doesn't run away, would result in a win for Kharn. He wins, but that does not mean he's overall superior.
3: I see no issue here.
4: The characters with higher dimensional immortality are generally given blessings or are avatars/parts of the higher being. Completely different from everyone going out and finding the dragon balls. At that rate, you may as well ban summoning from vs debating.
2: You don't have to be stronger than someone to win. Just look at Ahzek Ahrima vs Khârn the Betrayer, or any of the other anti meta characters. Ahzek can do stuff that Kharn could only dream of, yet a fight between those two, assuming Ahriman doesn't run away, would result in a win for Kharn. He wins, but that does not mean he's overall superior.
3: I see no issue here.
4: The characters with higher dimensional immortality are generally given blessings or are avatars/parts of the higher being. Completely different from everyone going out and finding the dragon balls. At that rate, you may as well ban summoning from vs debating.
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I know that Higher-Dimensional Manipulation can do this feat, for example, The Boneless (Doctor Who) - 2D being - can affect 3D being who by this wiki definition should have Type 9 Immortality if compare to the 2D being.
A strong power Nullification users can do this too. Arceus's only loss proved this.
And concept manipulation is much better than both these and will users might resist the conceptual damages the Type 9 Immortality, however, should be negated.
A strong power Nullification users can do this too. Arceus's only loss proved this.
And concept manipulation is much better than both these and will users might resist the conceptual damages the Type 9 Immortality, however, should be negated.
Wokistan
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Arceus's type 9 is bad. It isn't higher dimensional, and Khorne has the power to kill Arceus just by hitting him until he dies. He didn't power null that. Khorne's power null is better than a lot of concept hax anyways, and higher dimensional hax is definitely better. 3-Ds don't get type 9 out of nowhere. I don't think you understand how that immortality works.
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