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Tying Up Bleach Speed Stuffs

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Arc7Kuroi

Arc7Kuroi

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Few things that need wrapping up before we can place this Bleach "Christmas" speed gift under the tree and move onto the God Tier revisions:
  1. The Bankai multiplier should be 7.5x instead of 5x. My reasoning being, Urahara gives us a range for the Bankai multiplier of 5 to 10 times. Following normal distributions, that would put the majority of Bankai at 7.5x aka the average. From what I see on this site we generally take the average unless given a reason not to. Also the Bankai multiplier falls under the "small multipliers" category and the wiki says that small multipliers don't need heavy justification. It's not much of an upgrade; however, it's still more accurate than saying all Bankai fall under the minimum multiplier when we are given a range from 5-10. Alternatively, I've thought about proposing stuff along the lines of "at least 5x, possibly 10x" for all who get the Bankai multiplier, but using the average of 7.5x would be much less wordy and weird to look at.
  2. Gin's Shikai extension speed should be around Mach 66.67. On this site we accept that Gin's Bankai can extend at Mach 500. So, given that Gin's Bankai can amp his stats by 7.5 times, his Shikai would have to be Mach 66.67. The only counter argument I've seen to this is that Gin's Bankai increases the extending length from 100 sword lengths to 13 km, and that that means the multiplier must be proportional to 13 km divided by 100 sword lengths. However, we have never applied the Bankai multiplier to physical characteristics of the Zanpakuto, that would be like saying Mayuri's Bankai is a 100 times multiplier because Ashisogi Jizo gets 100 times bigger, or Sajin's Bankai is a 50 times multiplier because his Bankai is just himself but 50 times bigger (those numbers being arbitrary just for the sake of my point). Ichigo's original Tensa Zangetsu is smaller than his Shikai but that doesn't mean his Bankai is a decrease to stats, the point is that physical characteristics of a Zanpakuto (ie their size) hold no barring on the multiplier. Now why Gin's Shikai speed matters I'll address in the next point.
  3. Toshiro is capable of dodging Gin's Shikai at point blank. USklaverei did a calc for this using Mach 100 for the Shikai speed, but if you replace it with Mach 66.67 you'd get that Toshiro is half as fast as the value USklav found here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:USklaverei/Bleach_feats_Pre_Time-Skip. This is important because Gentei Kaijo restricted Toshiro (aka Toshiro at 20%) struggles against mere Fraccion, and furthermore Shunsui comments that despite being a prodigy in the making Toshiro still has century until he reaches the level of the veteran Captains. So what I'm proposing would be that Captains scale to 20% Toshiro, based on the fact that 20% Toshiro struggled against fodder level Arrancar who were weaker than Lieutenant class Shinigami like Rangiku.
  4. The Pre and Post Auswahlen Elite Sternritter keys should be replaced with a single Base key. Within Bleach 604 Lille goes on to describe that all the Auswahlen did for the Elite was give them their true abilities back, and by this he's referring to stuff like his X-Axis. He then demonstrates this by using his hax bullets to delete the space between Oetsu's chest and the muzzle of the gun. Then two Squad Zero members are still quick enough to interpose themselves between Lille's gun and Oetsu before he fires, which displays that in terms of speed Squad Zero is still relative to the Elite Sternritter. Not to mention none of the Elite demonstrate any notable stat increases post-Auswahlen. The Elite's not receiving speed amps with the Auswahlen is something that was agreed upon in a thread before the forum move with staff member Damage. So this is less of a new proposal and more of a reminder for those that are skeptical about why I'd suggest not splitting the Elite's base forms into two keys.
  5. Going off of Key revisions, instead of having separate Keys for the Vollstandig, we should just treat it like we do Bankai and Resurreccion (aka Quincy #5: x speed, y speed with Vollstandig). This would cut down on a lot of excess Keys and would be more consistent with how we treat other transformations within Keys.
  6. Regarding Renji's FTL calc, recently due to the massive downgrades certain individuals were becoming skeptical if the value would be "too high" compared to the average speed of the revised verse. While regardless it is by no means inconsistent, if it helps certain people stomach the FTL calc better, these new proposals bring Bleach back to a sub-rel to rel meta, making the FTL calc less of an "out there" calc.
The results of my proposals can be found here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Arc7Kuroi/Sandbox_Pre-TS_Speed_Revised_Multipliers and https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Arc7Kuroi/Sandbox_Post-TS_Speed_with_All_the_Fixings. These specifically just reflect the tiering not the Key revisions.

Edit: As the God Tier scaling will be addressed in its own thread, planned for the future, this thread is not the time to discuss the God Tiers (Aizen, Ichigo, Yhwach [their final forms]).
 
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I agree with u there
Also I feel like the speed should be like they were before cause shikai Renji was FTL so it would make more sense if characters like Ulquiorra are relativistic
 
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I’ll wait for what Matt has to say about this and agree with him since that’s all we can do.

Option B is blocked in my country. ovo
 
Maybe I'm biased to myself but I don't think any change I proposed is wild and crazy lol. Like use the average when given a range, scaling stats using the stated multipliers, etc...
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Maybe I'm biased to myself but I don't think any change I proposed is wild and crazy lol. Like use the average when given a range, scaling stats using the stated multipliers, etc...
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Is gonna get rejected

What u propose will throw a rock on the plan of "well they are too low so ofc the SL is an outlier"
 
Honestly using the 7.5x Multiplier as an average of the two values of 5x and 10x is fine to me, but I can see why some may take issue with it
 
1. Since I don't think we have any series which uses a ranged multiplier like that of Bleach's, there isn't really any set precedent for this. With that said, 7.5 seems like it can make for an okay meeting ground between the values given.
2.Also seems fair, though it contradicts your first point so might just be better to divide the bankai speed by 7.5 to keep everything consistent instead of by 2.
3.I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but if you're saying that 20% Toshiro dodged that attack then no, because they were in soul society which means there should be no limiter on them at that point in time. If not, then everything looks fine I think.
4. Agreed.
5. Agreed.
6. If no issue was found with the calc itself and since I don't think we have anything that really contradicts it, it should be fine to stay.
 
@Duedate8898
  1. Cool cool
  2. I used 10 for Gin for an absolute low-end for safety.
  3. No 100% Toshiro dodged it, what I’m saying is all Captains should scale above 20% Toshiro.
  4. Cool
  5. Cool
  6. Cool cool
 
The Bankai multiplier should be 7.5x instead of 5x. My reasoning being, Urahara gives us a range for the Bankai multiplier of 5 to 10 times. Following normal distributions, that would put the majority of Bankai at 7.5x aka the average. From what I see on this site we generally take the average unless given a reason not to. Also the Bankai multiplier falls under the "small multipliers" category and the wiki says that small multipliers don't need heavy justification. It's not much of an upgrade; however, it's still more accurate than saying all Bankai fall under the minimum multiplier when we are given a range from 5-10. Alternatively, I've thought about proposing stuff along the lines of "at least 5x, possibly 10x" for all who get the Bankai multiplier, but using the average of 7.5x would be much less wordy and weird to look at.
Click to expand...

I don't know if we have any precedent of using an "average multiplier" when given a range of values a multiplier can be. This might just be my mindset, but when dealing with an unknown multiplier value, it is better to use the low end where possible.

If we're told that somebody's power increases by "several times" we tend to lowball this to at least 3 times, even though "several" can potentially mean much higher than that.

And this is without even addressing the fact that the origianl statement for what gets multiplied is vague in the first place. The statement is not as explicit as a character's strength gets multiplied by 5 or their speed gets multiplied by 10. It is just "their combat ability is multiplied by 5 to 10 times."

Gin's Shikai extension speed should be at least Mach 50. On this site we accept that Gin's Bankai can extend at Mach 500. So, given that at most Gin's Bankai can amp his stats by 10 times, his Shikai would have to be at least Mach 50. The only counter argument I've seen to this is that Gin's Bankai increases the extending length from 100 sword lengths to 13 km, and that that means the multiplier must be proportional to 13 km divided by 100 sword lengths. However, we have never applied the Bankai multiplier to physical characteristics of the Zanpakuto, that would be like saying Mayuri's Bankai is a 100 times multiplier because Ashisogi Jizo gets 100 times bigger, or Sajin's Bankai is a 50 times multiplier because his Bankai is just himself but 50 times bigger (those numbers being arbitrary just for the sake of my point). Ichigo's original Tensa Zangetsu is smaller than his Shikai but that doesn't mean his Bankai is a decrease to stats, the point is that physical characteristics of a Zanpakuto (ie their size) hold no barring on the multiplier. Now why Gin's Shikai speed matters I'll address in the next point.
Click to expand...

I don't agree with applying any specific multiplier to Gin's Shikai. The Yoruichi Bankai statement is not direct support for the speed of Gin's Bankai extending and contracting to be 10 times slower than his Shikai.

There is no reason why his Bankai's extension and contraction speed couldn't be a hundred times greater than his Shikai.

Also, if you're really insistent on using the Yoruichi statement for him, remember that Yoruichi is only speaking generally. There is no reason given why something higher would be impossible than just that generalization.

I'll address the rest of the points later in the OP when I need to.

Also, I find it weird that you want to apply a "absolute low-end" for Gin's calc for safety, but you want to upgrade everyone else in the verse to an average of the multipliers.
 
Everyone should be upgraded by the times five since times ten is difficult to achieve and Bankai is something adquiere once in a generation. The light novel says that this generation was bless with multiple people having Bankai. (Supersaiyanbargainsale)

Regarding multipliers increasing speed and strength. We have Ikkaku who’s speed increases as well as his strength. Leonas said Ikkaku’s strength didn’t increase, yes. But Ikkaku later says his Bankai takes time to “wake up” as in “activate” is at sleep during release. Afterwards, Ikkaku proceeded to blitz and even do it ended in a draw from the damage he had taken willingly. Ikkaku couldn’t cut Leonas ressurection until his Bankai awoke.
 
Damage3245 said:
I don't know if we have any precedent of using an "average multiplier" when given a range of values a multiplier can be. This might just be my mindset, but when dealing with an unknown multiplier value, it is better to use the low end where possible.
Click to expand...
I agree with Damage,better to take the value from the minimum
 
Well the idea is 5x-10x with the 10x being for someone who has trained and developed their Bankai significantly, since a lot of the Captains have had years and years of training their Bankai’s, giving them the average 7.5x isn’t unreasonable at all, I mean it’s the average between our two multiplier values
 
I’d be inclined to agree with Damage if the multiplier wasn’t as small as it is.

Also during the explanation when Yoruichi says “5-10 times increase” Ichigo goes “10 times!!!” As if to draw attention to the higher end of the range as opposed to the lower end.

If generally the increase is 5-10 times, for the sake of being utmost accurate I believe we either need to split tiering with an “at least 5x, possibly 10x” or just go with an average of 7.5x, since just using 5x is blatantly wrong.

Regarding Gin I gave quite the detailed explanation for why physical characteristics do not apply to the multiplier statement regarding sword size. And your only counter is “there’s no reason it couldn’t be a 100 times multiplier” like wtf? That’s certainly not a valid point at all, please back that up.

Yoruichi speaking generally is all we have to go on, it’d be much more accurate to use the given multiplier than to say “oh well maybe it’s a 100 times multiplier since Yoruichi said generally” like cmon now, there’s absolutely no reason to treat Gin as a special 100+ times multiplier Bankai. Especially when you have no backing for it.
 
Your detailed explanation doesn't support why Gin's Bankai has to be a 10x multiplier.

We have this entry in the Multipliers page:

One should also consider which statistic a multiplier applies to. If a character just gets 10 times more powerful, then that doesn't necessarily means that all of its statistics are multiplied by 10. For example could a fiction in principle have a character become a 10 times more dangerous fighter just by increasing his combat technique, with only minor increases in stats. A more classical scenario is one where a characters strength increases by some multiplier, but its speed is untouched.
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The expansion/contraction speed of Gin's Bankai is not stated to be 5 to 10 times faster than his Shikai. So assuming that for the sake of calc so you can upgrade multiple Soul Society Arc captains to be even faster than Gin's Bankai makes no sense to me.

Also, I'm not saying we need to treat Gin's Bankai as a 100x multiplier for it. I'm simply giving a hypothetical number.

I don't think we should be using any multiplier for it.

I’d be inclined to agree with Damage if the multiplier wasn’t as small as it is.
Click to expand...

The application of the multipliers on this site is not small.

Masked Bankai Ichigo goes from a 25x multipliers to a 56.25x multiplier. That's a pretty big increase.
 
Ok so the statement is Gin’s Bankai can extend at Mach 500. That implies that his Bankai extends at a different speed than Shikai, else why specify Bankai.

We are told that Bankai is a 5-10 times multiplier generally. So logic says Gin’s Bankai is 5-10 times faster than his Shikai. (I used 10 times for lowball since that would make his Shikai the slowest it could be but I’d be fine using 7.5x as the average multiplier).

So we know Gin’s Bankai extends at a different speed than his Shikai because they specify that his Bankai is Mach 500. We also know that Bankai generally amps one’s capabilities (in this case Gin’s speed since we know it changes) by 5-10 times. Unless you have some game changing argument why the Bankai statement would not apply to Gin, then common sense says that Gin’s Bankai is 5-10 times faster than his Shikai.
 
Yoruichi's statement is that Bankai generally amplifies a user's combat ability by 5 to 10x (depending on one's innate talent & training).

We don't assume that means all stats, and we have no good reason to apply that multiplier to the expansion/contraction speed of Gin's Bankai.

Combat ability =/= all statistics or all aspects of a Zanpakuto.

So logic says Gin’s Bankai is 5-10 times faster than his Shikai
Click to expand...

I don't agree. The statement is too vague to use for that.
 
I know what Yoruichi said, you’re not reading my post.

We know that Gin’s Bankai extends at a different speed than his Shikai. THUS we can infer that his Zanpakuto’s speed is increased upon its Bankai transformation. Speed is a COMBAT ABILITY. SO, if Gin’s Bankai is amplifying his COMBAT ABILITY of SPEED in this case, then it would be doing so by 5-10 times as per Yoruichi’s statement.

This is quite literally how we treat Bankai for any character that gets a statistics amp. Going by your logic we shouldnt apply Bankai multipliers to anyone because it says “combat ability” instead of “physical statistics” hurr durr. Do you need to be spoon fed everything from the author in terms of vsbw lingo or something?

You can’t go around and accept that Ichigo gets 5-10x faster, Renji gets 5-10x stronger, Kenpachi gets 5-10x more powerful, and then say it doesn’t apply to Gin because Yoruichi was “too vague” that’s a double standard.
 
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I read it. And you should reread this from the Multipliers page:

One should also consider which statistic a multiplier applies to. If a character just gets 10 times more powerful, then that doesn't necessarily means that all of its statistics are multiplied by 10. For example could a fiction in principle have a character become a 10 times more dangerous fighter just by increasing his combat technique, with only minor increases in stats. A more classical scenario is one where a characters strength increases by some multiplier, but its speed is untouched.
Click to expand...

Gin getting a 5-10x increase in overall combat ability =/= a 10 times increase for a specific attribute of his sword.
 
Damage3245 said:
Gin getting a 5-10x increase in overall combat ability =/= a 10 times increase for a specific attribute of his sword.
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Renji is accepted for getting 5-10x stronger for displaying a power increase in Bankai, Ichigo is accepted for getting 5-10x stronger and faster for displaying such in Bankai, Kenpachi is accepted as getting 5-10x stronger and faster for displaying such in Bankai. So if Gin is displayed as getting faster in Bankai than it’s by 5-10x. Have some ******* consistency for once in your life or remove all multipliers from Bleach.

In Bleach When A Character Displays A Stat Increase In Bankai We Rate Them As Having Increased Said Stat By 5-10 Times.

You have yet to give a reason why Gin is special and has no multiplier. Like damn you really do need to be spoon fed by the author it’s pathetic.
 
I mean it says combat ability rather then a specific stat, so treating it as a general increase makes the most sense.
 
Damage3245 said:
If removing the multipliers from Bleach is an option, I am open to investigating whether that is worthwhile.
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The fact you took that serious is one of the dumbest things I’ve seen from you.

Now please give me any evidence whatsoever that Gin is special and doesn’t adhere by the Bankai multiplier.


Arc7Kuroi said:
Renji is accepted for getting 5-10x stronger for displaying a power increase in Bankai, Ichigo is accepted for getting 5-10x stronger and faster for displaying such in Bankai, Kenpachi is accepted as getting 5-10x stronger and faster for displaying such in Bankai. So if Gin is displayed as getting faster in Bankai than it’s by 5-10x. Have some ******* consistency for once in your life or remove all multipliers from Bleach.

In Bleach When A Character Displays A Stat Increase In Bankai We Rate Them As Having Increased Said Stat By 5-10 Times.

You have yet to give a reason why Gin is special and has no multiplier. Like damn you really do need to be spoon fed by the author it’s pathetic.
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also here is this again, the only reason you’re against Gin and not Renji, Ichigo, or Kenpachi is because Gin would upgrade the verse, and that twists your panties so far up your ass it hurts.
 
Still waiting on a argument as to why the Bankai multiplier all of a sudden doesn’t apply to Gin.

“One and only opposing member” lol

I can tolerate differences but when damage wants to disregard something that is in direct contradiction with what he accepts on this site I have issues. Saying for Gin only the statement is too vague is just utter attempt at downplay. I have nothing against damage as a person, his skeptic arguments that he rarely ever backs up but then gets passed because he’s the only staff member who comments on Bleach is annoying.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Still waiting on a argument as to why the Bankai multiplier all of a sudden doesn’t apply to Gin.

“One and only opposing member” lol

I can tolerate differences but when damage wants to disregard something that is in direct contradiction with what he accepts on this site I have issues. Saying for Gin only the statement is too vague is just utter attempt at downplay.
Click to expand...

we did say that the intentions of the previous were to make them slow to say that anything higher would be an outlier and did say this would be seen as a stone on that


also it was good knowing u

 
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