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0348-005.png

this is what uryu said when ulquiorra went into his second release and he had previously felt ulquiorras cero oscuras which was used in his 1st release few chapters ago
0347-003.png


and cero oscuras has a confirmed multiplier of x10
so ulquiorras second release should have a at least x10 multiplier (also supports many characters bankais being above x5 as ressurrection=bankai)
So like rating Ulq’s Segunda Etapa as a multiplier above/on or with Cero Oscuras?
 
0348-005.png

this is what uryu said when ulquiorra went into his second release and he had previously felt ulquiorras cero oscuras which was used in his 1st release few chapters ago
0347-003.png


and cero oscuras has a confirmed multiplier of x10
so ulquiorras second release should have a at least x10 multiplier (also supports many characters bankais being above x5 as ressurrection=bankai)
Ulquiorra R1 Cero oscuras = Ulquiorra R2 if we give the form a x10. Shouldn’t the multiplier be higher? Uryu’s reaction says the form is above the x10 multiplier. Since we don’t have a number we have to rate Ulquiorra “higher with Segunda Etapa”.
 
So like rating Ulq’s Segunda Etapa as a multiplier above/on or with Cero Oscuras?
it should be above as a multiplier based on uryus statement but as we cant quantify as applelord said a at least x10 should be fine
so if his speed is 1% sol (sub rel) in R1 we would have him as "at least relativistic" in segunda etapa
 
@Arc7Kuroi, I do like that way of thinking honestly and I definitely agree we should discuss the characters you listed scaling to the full calc. My second issue has to do with post final Grimmjow fight Ichigo and Ulquiorra. Maybe it's the wording on the profiles but we have post final Grimmjow fight Bankai Ichigo rated at MHS+ for being able to keep up with and dodge attack's from Ulquiorra who's speed is sub realistic. It also means people like Rukia are comparable to that Ichigo which I feel doesn't make much sense at that point. I think Ichigo should scale to Ulquiorra since he was able to fight him for a while. Your opinions on that?
 
Even if we used the Mach 50 figure for Gin's Shikai speed, USklaverei's calc is not accurate.

Toshiro did two things after Gin's Shikai was approaching him; he leaned backwards/downwards to get himself out of the path of the blade, and he deflected Gin's Shikai with his sword to divert its path. And despite both of those things, Toshiro was still grazed on his forehead, right across his eyebrow.

He did not move his head 0.0576 meters in the time it took the Shikai to cross 0.00209 meters.

At best he could be rated as comparable to the speed of the Shikai for just barely dodging it & diverting it. Technicially he would be slightly slower than it because in the time it took him to move his head back, the blade was able to travel a further distance than him and cut him.
 
My first question is why are we assuming that people like ss arc Byakuya and Ichigo only scale to a 20% Hitsugaya based off what Shunsui said about him taking a hundred years to pass him? I could understand other captains like Mayuri or maybe Komamura, but Byakuya is one of the captains that's known for his speed right? So why wouldn't they scale to a full power Toshiro ?
20% Hitsugaya struggled against grimmjow's henchman though
Ichigo thus should be superior to 20% hitsugaya if not 100% hitsugaya
 
Even if we used the Mach 50 figure for Gin's Shikai speed, USklaverei's calc is not accurate.

Toshiro did two things after Gin's Shikai was approaching him; he leaned backwards/downwards to get himself out of the path of the blade, and he deflected Gin's Shikai with his sword to divert its path. And despite both of those things, Toshiro was still grazed on his forehead, right across his eyebrow.

He did not move his head 0.0576 meters in the time it took the Shikai to cross 0.00209 meters.

At best he could be rated as comparable to the speed of the Shikai for just barely dodging it & diverting it. Technicially he would be slightly slower than it because in the time it took him to move his head back, the blade was able to travel a further distance than him and cut him.
So, just calculate the distance from the eye to the mark on the forehead and we have the distance it moved.
 
@Arc7Kuroi, I do like that way of thinking honestly and I definitely agree we should discuss the characters you listed scaling to the full calc. My second issue has to do with post final Grimmjow fight Ichigo and Ulquiorra. Maybe it's the wording on the profiles but we have post final Grimmjow fight Bankai Ichigo rated at MHS+ for being able to keep up with and dodge attack's from Ulquiorra who's speed is sub realistic. It also means people like Rukia are comparable to that Ichigo which I feel doesn't make much sense at that point. I think Ichigo should scale to Ulquiorra since he was able to fight him for a while. Your opinions on that?
Yeah I noticed that too and kind of ignored it. I think it should be changed to something like “kept up with a casual Ulquiorra” since base Ulq and Hollow Mask Ichigo were more so equals.

@Damage3245 we can just fix the calc how USklav suggested it’s not the biggest deal.

Also for all those still confused at why I said in the OP use a 10x for Gin’s Bankai, it was to lowball his Shikai speed. If it would be more acceptable with my suggestion of using 7.5x as the general Bankai multiplier, I’d be fine to do that with Gin’s sword and update my sandboxes to reflect such. Because by making Gin’s a 10x multiplier it means his Shikai is 10x slower.
 
@Arc7Kuroi; if you agree that a lowball is a safer option, then why not apply a lowball to all of the Bankai Multipliers like we currently do?
 
Damage brings up a good point, for the consistency of my argument I’ll use 7.5x for Gin too. I’ll get around to editing the OP in a few.

TBH it’s a bad habit of mine because lowball =/= accurate but I often do lowball because this wiki prefers lowballs.
 
So I’ve updated the sandboxes to reflect the updated Toshiro calc (which can be found in the updated USklav calc found in the OP).

There’s overwhelming majority support for the changes I proposed, with some small things like should we scale captains to 100% or 20% Toshiro.

I’m not too sure where Damage stands at the moment as he’s dropped his points regarding the multipliers and Gin and moved onto to addressing the calc (to which USklav fixed).
 
Unless I'm mistaken, my original issues with USKlaverei's calc still exist. Toshiro is not massively faster than Gin's Shikai. Even moving his head backwards and deflecting his blade, he was still cut by him.

The timeframe of the calc does not work when you factor in Toshiro is moving his head backwards and deflecting the sword upwards. The timeframe only works if Toshiro's head got no further away backwards and only moved his head vertically downwards as if he was ducking the sword.
 
Toshiro is not massivley faster than Gin's Shikai.
Why can this not be the case? Toshiro not being able to be that fast is your own head canon and meager attempt to maintain downplay.

The attack came from hidden within Gin’s robes. It was a surprise attack.

Would it not be an easy fix to calc how far his head dropped as well and use an arclength for how far he moved his head.

Also can I take your lack of response to by a concession on the multipliers and Gin?
 
@Arc7Kuroi; no, I still don't think that we should be using the Bankai multipliers for that ability of Gin's sword.

I'm just addressing the issues with a different part of the proposals in the OP.

I'm pointing out that the timeframe is no longer a constant once Toshiro starts moving away from the sword and the sword is being moved from its original trajectory. The calc assumes that Toshiro completed his motion after Gin's Shikai only moved 2 millimeters. This is obviously not true as Toshiro's head would be further away by that point, and therefore the sword would have a longer distance to cross, which affects the timeframe.
 
@Arc7Kuroi; no, I still don't think that we should be using the Bankai multipliers for that ability of Gin's sword.

I'm just addressing the issues with a different part of the proposals in the OP.

I'm pointing out that the timeframe is no longer a constant once Toshiro starts moving away from the sword and the sword is being moved from its original trajectory. The calc assumes that Toshiro completed his motion after Gin's Shikai only moved 2 millimeters. This is obviously not true as Toshiro's head would be further away by that point, and therefore the sword would have a longer distance to cross, which affects the timeframe.
This is wrong, the time he had to execute anything was still this, regardless of whether he moved backwards or affected the sword's course, he did it before the sword crossed that calculated distance
 
Look, the issue of the multiplier is simple for me.

Yoruichi's statement is for a general power-up, she doesn't say specific abilities / sword attributes get a 5-10x increase, just that the person using Bankai gets their Zanpakuto's combat ability increased by 5-10x. It is vague. It is non-specific.

The expansion/contraction of Gin's sword cannot provably be confirmed to comply with this figure from Yoruichi. Gin's sword length is just as much an attribute / ability of the sword as the speed that it extends and contracts, and yet his sword length in Bankai increases by over 100x.

The number of petals Byakuya has access to in Bankai is a thousand times greater than his Shikai state.

Do I think this means we should apply a 1000x multiplier for Byakuya's stats? Of course not. All I'm saying that there is no reason to single out the speed of Gin's sword from any other attribute, just because it is a statistic on the wiki that can we take advantage of.

Our guidelines say this, and this is all that really matters:

One should also consider which statistic a multiplier applies to. If a character just gets 10 times more powerful, then that doesn't necessarily means that all of its statistics are multiplied by 10. For example could a fiction in principle have a character become a 10 times more dangerous fighter just by increasing his combat technique, with only minor increases in stats. A more classical scenario is one where a characters strength increases by some multiplier, but its speed is untouched.

Gin's combat ability getting a 5-10x multiplier does not mean his sword's speed has to be affected by that same multiplier. It is an unconfirmed figure for Gin, and therefore his Shikai's speed should be treated as unconfirmed.

EDIT: I would be happy for more staff members to weigh in here on this multiplier issue.
 
The expansion/contraction of Gin's sword cannot provably be confirmed to comply with this figure from Yoruichi. Gin's sword length is just as much an attribute / ability of the sword as the speed that it extends and contracts, and yet his sword length in Bankai increases by over 100x.
We actually don’t know how exactly larger it gets as 100 sword lengths doesn’t inherently assign a direct size. Also Ichigo’s increase in power is a direct aspect of just his sword. Byakuya says “you hyper condense your energy into a smaller blade for an explosion of power” or sumn similar. And we know that the multiplier applies to Ichigo. So we know the multiplier applies to the sword.


The number of petals Byakuya has access to in Bankai is a thousand times greater than his Shikai state.
Yes and we know it only increased Byakuya’s power by around 5-10 times because he went from being on par with Shikai Ichigo to being able to block strikes from Bankai Ichigo. So this is further proof that a physical characteristic of a Zanpakuto is not affected like a statistic is. Byakuya gained thousandfold more petals, but his AP only increased proportionally to the Bankai multiplier.


Do I think this means we should apply a 1000x multiplier for Byakuya? Of course not. All I'm saying that there is no reason to single out the speed of Gin's sword from any other attribute, just because it is a statistic on the wiki that can we take advantage of.
There is 100% reason to single out Gin’s speed. Upon using his Bankai his sword speed increases. Ichigo’s sword cutting power increases with Bankai so we apply the multiplier as such. Renji’s sword becomes more powerful so we single out his AP and apply the multiplier as such. It is simply how we scale Bleach with the Bankai multiplier because the statement is all encompassing and vague. It’s said as combat ability rather than “speed, power, and defense” because some swords only get faster, some get stronger, and some get all three.


Gin's combat ability getting a 5-10x multiplier does not mean his sword's speed has to be affected by that same multiplier. It is an unconfirmed figure for Gin, and therefore his Shikai's speed should be treated and unconfirmed.
Ichigo’s combat ability getting 5-10x higher doesn’t mean he inherently gets 5-10x to his speed, AP, and dura. BUT because he demonstrates an increase we use the only multiplier we are given. Literal same case with Gin. We don’t know initially how much faster his Bankai gets, BUT we know Bankai is generally a 5-10x amp, SO the most logical conclusion is that it’s a 5-10x amp, like every single Bankai that has an amp before it.
 
So Bankai don’t increase strength and speed now? I thought this was a given and told/show in the manga in multiple cases.
 
Well, to give my opinion on the Toshiro issue, I don't believe the calc can be used as a movement feat due to Toshiro getting hit by the blade. Also

I'm also not sure if moving fast enough that time appears to be stopped is actually evidence for LS. I think some more calc member input is necessary.
 
At best we can scale Toshiro to be comparable to Gin's Shikai, but it is strange to try and propose that he (and other Captains who don't have any speed connection to Toshiro) are at least 15 times faster than Gin's Shikai in terms of combat speed.

The timeframe of the feat being affected by Toshiro's movement, Toshiro deflecting the blade at the same time that he dodges it, and Toshiro still being hit by the sword indicates that Toshiro is not massively faster than the Shikai.
 
A beggining of SS arc Ichigo could react to and block Gin's Shikai.An injured Byakuya could react to an already activated Shinso while multi tasking.Being faster than Gin's Shikai is no big deal.
 
@Damage, I suppose it's kinda weird that any character that has no speed connection to Orihime is allowed to scale to her calc but your ok with that?

Kinda seems like a double standard.
I never said I am 100% fine in scaling characters like that to Orihime. Most of the time that was done in the past because there wasn't a suitable alternative.

I'm sure if I tried to remove a lot of that scaling, like I'd prefer to, most people here would be complaining that I'm trying to downgrade characters or change characters to Unknown speed for no reason...
 
That's the thing, you're fine with just removing scaling all together and putting whoever you think should be unknown at unknown instead of looking for other feats or just accepting the fact that in Bleach usually the stronger you are and more reiatsu you have then that means your speed is faster than whoever has the speed calc. But you're nit picky about literally every single detail. Like I see why people are so frustrated with you man, I'm sorry but you're not fair in any way possible .
 
@SilentBob34; Yes, people are frustrated with me because I nitpick verses. I don't really care at this point though. I am going to continue to investigate bad calcs and bad scaling for as long as necessary.
 
4-A will be none existence. 5-B is going down x2. Not up. Add this to my clairvoyant premonition list. I’ll remind you in a few months. I was given a short period of time and now my souls bleeds.
 
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