Two Servants get upgraded (Nasuverese) CRT

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

-Hello, while playing and digging through the FGO Game, I thought this things should be added, as they are missing.





1.) Iskandar creates a Reality Marble with a Sun

Straight forward. Iskandar, AKA one of the manliest Servants of all, makes an entire Reality Marble complete with his army (Each of them btw are equal to mid-level Servants), a vast desert, and a scorching Sun. Yes, it's a Sun creation feat. And, it is indeed a legit Sun as described in the Fate Official Materials.

"They and their king recreate the land in which they once marched and shared many joys and sorrows, as it is imprinted upon the heart of each soldier, allowing them to bring about a sand-filled expanse roaring with hot and dry desert winds under the scorching sun and cloudless, clear skies without anything to obscure the everlasting horizon. This Noble Phantasm drags the enemies into a terrain that has no obstacles on the desert battlefield. It also maximizes the Charisma of the King of Conquerors Iskandar."

-Fate/Grand Order Material III (Source).

Here you have the video:



CONCLUSION: 4-C AP via creation for Rider (Iskandar). Ofc this wouldn't scale to the rest of his stats, as is only a creation feat.






--Allright, now let's go with Saber:

Mysterious Heroine X has a rival named Mysterious Heroine X Alter, and she's basically anime chick with Saber's face as Darth Vader. And how powerful is she? Well her sword can easily destroy Planets.



However, this sword is apparently not matured yet, since the sword they bought for her was like a late bloomer or some sorts. Now how does this go with regular Mysterious Heroine X? Well, she has this skill called "Galactic Meteor Sword", and its only ranked at around C...

Yet despite this, its powerful enough to destroy stars.

"Galactic Meteor Sword: C
A power given to Saber that can destroy even stars. Also known as the sword that absolutely kills Sabers. Its attack is super effective against Sabers, so would it be an exaggeration to say that she is the greatest Saber of all?"

- Fate/Grand Order Material III (source).

CONCLUSION: I recommend a "possibly 4-C" as is only a statement, and we don't even know how she would destroy, thought also a Likely 5-B for the first key seems valid due to the Imgur post I linked above.

SO: Likely 5-B (First key), Possibly 4-C for Mysterious Heroine X.




SUMMARY:
- 4-C Rider via creation.

- Likely 5-B, Possibly 4-C Saber X.



Agree: FallenMaou2234, Paul_Frank (Only with 4-C MHX), Loyd, PsychoWarper (Only with MHX's part).


Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

isnt star sized dimension creation high 4-C

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

CONCLUSION: 4-C AP via creation for Rider (Iskandar). Ofc this wouldn't scale to the rest of his stats, as is only a creation feat.

Gil destroyed his entire Reality Marble tho.

Mysterious Heroine X has a rival named Mysterious Heroine X Alter, and she's basically anime chick with Saber's face as Darth Vader. And how powerful is she? Well her sword can easily destroy Planets.

few weeks ago Regidian made the same CRT, but somehow the thread died

 

[QuasiYuri]

Gil destroyed the RM so the non-FP Ea would scale.

Also regarding Ionoi Heitaroi his army is made of top servants too. Not sure if you would give them a tier for it tho since it is something they can only do together.

 

[Archinord991]

So it would be scale to Gilgamesh durability too, because we recently received an the non fullpower EA CRT scaled to his Golden Armor.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I think the MHX part is fine so long as it's "Possibly", however I don't know about the 4-C Iskandar.

Gil Destroyed the Reality Marble with a Non-FP GG stick. Which means like @Archinord991 pointed out it would scale to his armour as well. Meaning other attacks that have bypassed his armour like Excalibur scale and a whole shit ton of other noble Phantasms scale to an Excalibur blast.

So I feel like there would be a couple problems with that

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Gil Destroyed the Reality Marble with a Non-FP GG stick. Which means like @Archinord991 pointed out it would scale to his armour as well. Meaning other attacks that have bypassed his armour like Excalibur scale and a whole shit ton of other noble Phantasms scale to an Excalibur blast.

when did excalibur bypass gilgamesh's golden armor?

 

[Archinord991]

isnt star sized dimension creation high 4-C

Perhaps, that when we consider the expanse of sand in RM Iskandar as wide as the Earth, then High 4-C rating can be used

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

I think EA's output very varied, like when in UBW it just blew a little wind, the time in FSN which is equal to or slightly stronger than Excalibur, and in Fate Zero which is able to destroy RM, up to the full power of EA which is able to destroy the world itself, so it must be case by case.

 

[Archinord991]

I think the MHX part is fine so long as it's "Possibly", however I don't know about the 4-C Iskandar.

Gil Destroyed the Reality Marble with a Non-FP GG stick. Which means like @Archinord991 pointed out it would scale to his armour as well. Meaning other attacks that have bypassed his armour like Excalibur scale and a whole shit ton of other noble Phantasms scale to an Excalibur blast.

So I feel like there would be a couple problems with that

Excalibur has never bypassed EA

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Excalibur has never bypassed EA

His Armour not EA around 4:08

 

[Archinord991]

His Armour not EA around 4:08 Seconds

ahh sorry I didn't notice it

 

[FallenMaou2234]

His Armour not EA around 4:08

@TrueKingOfHeroes

Here

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Also regarding Ionoi Heitaroi his army is made of top servants too. Not sure if you would give them a tier for it tho since it is something they can only do together.

He still desplayed the creation feat, yes, along with his army, but he still has the ability as the Fate Grand order Material III says.

So, a 4-C key via creation noted that is along with his army should work.

Still, is only a creation feat so physicals won't play a role here.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Gil destroyed his entire Reality Marble tho.

Yes, but I didn't want to include him on this thread, I saved him for the next.

But, if you want, we can also give him the key through this thread.

So yeah, he would have a 4-C key too.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Yes, but I didn't want to include him on this thread, I saved him for the next.

But, if you want, we can also give him the key through this thread.

So yeah, he would have a 4-C key too.

better solved here, as it's still a relevant thread. I only agree for AP, not with his durability. Gil only withstand space-time dislocations that occur in RM, but not holds all existing output.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

better solved here, as it's still a relevant thread. I only agree for AP not with his durability. Gil only withstand space-time dislocations that occur in RM, but not holds all existing output.

Ok, and Yeah I agree with only AP for Gil too, but seems like others are arguing for scaling it to Gil's armour.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Ok, and Yeah I agree with only AP for Gil too, but seems like others are arguing for scaling it to Gil's armour.

it doesn't make sense if the armor of Gil is scaled to his AP, it will break the servant's scaling chain.

also don't remove Gilgamesh's L6-B key, Gil still has that key due to EA was able to be on par with Excalibur A+

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

it doesn't make sense if the armor of Gil is scaled to his AP, it will break the servant's scaling chain.

also don't remove Gilgamesh's L6-B key, Gil still has that key due to EA was able to be on par with Excalibur A+

Yeah, I agree with you.

I won't, we can just make another key for his 4-C AP.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Yeah, I agree with you.

I won't, we can just make another key for his 4-C AP.

Just a couple questions

First:If A Non-FP Ea scales to a full power Excalibur and the same Non-FP Ea destroyed Iskandars 4-C Reality Marble then are we bumping Excalibur to 4-C?? If not or if so what's the rationale there?

Second:If a Non-FP GG stick is 4-C and scales to his durability with his golden armour because he survived attacks from it then shouldn't that mean any weapon that has bypassed the armour would now scale to 4-C if not why??

Third:Since it was destroyed by EA which is an Anti-World Noble Phantasm would other Anti-World Noble Phantasms scale to this as well if not why??

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Just a couple questions

First:If A Non-FP Ea scales to a full power Excalibur and the same Non-FP Ea destroyed Iskandars 4-C Reality Marble then are we bumping Excalibur to 4-C?? If not or if so what's the rationale there?

Second:If a Non-FP GG stick is 4-C and scales to his durability with his golden armour because he survived attacks from it then shouldn't that mean any weapon that has bypassed the armour would now scale to 4-C if not why??

Third:Since it was destroyed by EA which is an Anti-World Noble Phantasm would other Anti-World Noble Phantasms scale to this as well if not why??

1. Yes, we are bumping it to 4-C, there won't be much trouble if we just do another key for it.

2. Yes, It would be a "Likely" 4-C. But, I'm not sure if It would scale to his dura, I somewhat agree with @TrueKingOfHeroes, his point seems pretty solid and is consistant with the FGO showings and servants scaling.

3. No, becouse we don't know if other Noble phantasam would be as strong.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

1. Yes, we are bumping it to 4-C, there won't be much trouble if we just do another key for it.

Alright that seems fine, now to voice my concern.

Sorry if it feels like I'm just repeating shit, but If we bumped Excalibur up to 4-C would adding a separate key mean it doesn't scale to the Noble Phantasms that are on the same level of power???.

Because as to my Knowledge there are a few Noble Phantasms that scale to Excalibur like Excalibur Galatine,Excalibur Morgan, Clarent, Vasavi Shakti, possibly Balmung etc..

So wouldn't this Upgrade more or less break the current scaling chain what's the rationale here if I may ask??

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Alright that seems fine, now to voice my concern.

Sorry if it feels like I'm just repeating shit, but If we bumped Excalibur up to 4-C would adding a separate key mean it doesn't scale to the Noble Phantasms that are on the same level of power???.

Because as to my Knowledge there are a few Noble Phantasms that scale to Excalibur like Excalibur Galatine,Excalibur Morgan, Clarent, Vasavi Shakti, possibly Balmung etc..

So wouldn't this Upgrade more or less break the current scaling chain what's the rationale here if I may ask??

1. Of course it should scale in the same AP, but with a "Likely" rating, just to don't assume 100% without any direct statement.

2. It wouldn't, as this would be only AP, but It wouldn't scale to their dura, so @TrueKingOfHeroes makes the most sense to me here.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

1. Of course it should scale in the same AP, but with a "Likely" rating, just to don't assume 100% without any direct statement.

2. It wouldn't, as this would be only AP, but It wouldn't scale to their dura, so @TrueKingOfHeroes makes the most sense to me here.

Ah alright I agree with the "Likely" and it wouldn't scale to their dura just AP, if so this seems fine. Consider tagging a couple staff members and have them check this out.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I've been sent this thread more than once so I guess I should respond before this somehow passes.

CONCLUSION: 4-C AP via creation for Rider (Iskandar). Ofc this wouldn't scale to the rest of his stats, as is only a creation feat.

See that last part is the issue, the reason reality marbles are largely not used for scaling is because they outright do scale to the rest of someone's abilities (but would massively inflate their stats due to this) as it's just a high rank thaumatergy, it uses the same mana as all their other abilities, is sustained through their power and will go away when they can't sustain the world anymore. For a normal magus this would mean it scales to all their combat magic, but for a servant, something completely made of mana, it would outright be their physical abilities, as we have been shown and told that more mana directly increases a Servant's physical stats

To show some examples of other scaling issues that would be caused by using Reality marbles for stats the correct way, Shirou would have High 3-A via UBW, as the CE and stuff explicitly mention its infinite, Angelica vs Shirou would then result in High 3-A non FP Ea Blasts, which would scale to Excalibur, and then back to servants. This is without even taking into account the fact that using UBW in the first place for scaling would also make every magus who isn't fodder, have high 3-A AP, as they're all better than Shirou in terms of mana.

Assuming you disagree with this, despite things like Extra outright stating that the reason reality marbles are uncommon is because the servant has to be strong enough to sustain it with their power (and the master to sustain them), and Nasu himself saying that an opponent with higher magic output will have a bigger/stronger RM (showing its directly tied to magic power), First Lady in the Prisma event has a continent sized reality marble, and that is considered insane. This would obviously however, not be impressive at all if we take Iskandar's as not an outlier in terms of reality marbles, so even while arguing it wouldn't scale to physicals, its an outlier in terms of reality marble size, consistent with the fact that almost every other RM or RM like ability we see is much smaller.

From Nero's arena, to Blackmore's RM, to even the biggest ones like TATARI aren't that large, and that one is sustained by something much stronger than a random Rider class servant.

Now, even ignoring all of this, this would scale to literally nothing that doesn't already have better feats, as we see that what destroys Ionian Hetiroi is in fact, full power Ea, we see the charge up time, and he even calls out Enuma Elish, and we see the effects, as opposed to non full power Ea blasts which we have seen either take the form of wind blasts in an aoe, or the beam that can clash with Excalibur.

So this wouldn't scale to Excalibur, or Gil's armor, or anything like that. And even if you argued it was non FP Ea, this is a massive outlier, as it scales to Excalibur, which scales to a large amount of other NPs, to the point where you can't just say "don't scale Excalibur to other NPs" as it's their only point of reference for scaling.

Also I just want to give a note that this exact proposal has been rejected numerous times since even before Fgo, for just being an absurd outlier, something that has not yet changed in the series.

Tl;Dr, the entire reality marble part of the thread is cursed and I disagree.

As for the MHX stuff, that was going to be covered in an upcoming CRT with a bunch of other stuff so it's whatever

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I've been sent this thread more than once so I guess I should respond before this somehow passes.

See that last part is the issue, the reason reality marbles are largely not used for scaling is because they outright do scale to the rest of someone's abilities (but would massively inflate their stats due to this) as it's just a high rank thaumatergy, it uses the same mana as all their other abilities, is sustained through their power and will go away when they can't sustain the world anymore. For a normal magus this would mean it scales to all their combat magic, but for a servant, something completely made of mana, it would outright be their physical abilities, as we have been shown and told that more mana directly increases a Servant's physical stats

To show some examples of other scaling issues that would be caused by using Reality marbles for stats the correct way, Shirou would have High 3-A via UBW, as the CE and stuff explicitly mention its infinite, Angelica vs Shirou would then result in High 3-A non FP Ea Blasts, which would scale to Excalibur, and then back to servants. This is without even taking into account the fact that using UBW in the first place for scaling would also make every magus who isn't fodder, have high 3-A AP, as they're all better than Shirou in terms of mana.

Assuming you disagree with this, despite things like Extra outright stating that the reason reality marbles are uncommon is because the servant has to be strong enough to sustain it with their power (and the master to sustain them), and Nasu himself saying that an opponent with higher magic output will have a bigger/stronger RM (showing its directly tied to magic power), First Lady in the Prisma event has a continent sized reality marble, and that is considered insane. This would obviously however, not be impressive at all if we take Iskandar's as not an outlier in terms of reality marbles, so even while arguing it wouldn't scale to physicals, its an outlier in terms of reality marble size, consistent with the fact that almost every other RM or RM like ability we see is much smaller.

From Nero's arena, to Blackmore's RM, to even the biggest ones like TATARI aren't that large, and that one is sustained by something much stronger than a random Rider class servant.

Now, even ignoring all of this, this would scale to literally nothing that doesn't already have better feats, as we see that what destroys Ionian Hetiroi is in fact, full power Ea, we see the charge up time, and he even calls out Enuma Elish, and we see the effects, as opposed to non full power Ea blasts which we have seen either take the form of wind blasts in an aoe, or the beam that can clash with Excalibur.

So this wouldn't scale to Excalibur, or Gil's armor, or anything like that. And even if you argued it was non FP Ea, this is a massive outlier, as it scales to Excalibur, which scales to a large amount of other NPs, to the point where you can't just say "don't scale Excalibur to other NPs" as it's their only point of reference for scaling.

Also I just want to give a note that this exact proposal has been rejected numerous times since even before Fgo, for just being an absurd outlier, something that has not yet changed in the series.

Tl;Dr, the entire reality marble part of the thread is cursed and I disagree.

As for the MHX stuff, that was going to be covered in an upcoming CRT with a bunch of other stuff so it's whatever

Well, you got characters like Kaguya, who uses Chakra (her power, and this was accepted to be the case), to create pocket realms filled with stars in it, meaning that yeah, a technique doesn't necessarily have to buff the other stats. Exceptions exist in this cases.
Some of these cases are also present in DB, and mind you, those characters use Ki techniques that gathers their power.

So, I don't see the problem on making Gil another key for 4-C only with the non FPa weapon, the same with Rider. Gil's armour wouldn't scale, as mentioned above, this is only a massive energy feat, not physical.

This has nothing to do with their stats, only creation and destroying which doesn't necessarily mean that It has to scale to the rest of their stats per see, and, as far as I'm aware, creation doesn't scale to physicals anymore.
And yeah, I know this isn't relevant for the current scaling, but I think it would be better if these characters got another key.
And, well, it's fine if it doesn't scale, nor that It needs to scale to the other NP. We got some cases like this in the wiki.

For example, EOS Naruto, or Isshiki are stronger than Kaguya yet they aren't 4-C (Mind you, as I said above, that currently Chakra is accepted to scale to physicals in most cases).

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Bump

 

[Paul_Frank]

Well, you got characters like Kaguya, who uses Chakra (her power, and this was accepted to be the case), to create pocket realms filled with stars in it, meaning that yeah, a technique doesn't necessarily have to buff the other stats. Exceptions exist in this cases.
Some of these cases are also present in DB, and mind you, those characters use Ki techniques that gathers their power.

Those aren't even in the same verse so I'm not sure why they're being mentioned, however those cases, especially Kaguya with the etsb, make specific note that they're more impressive. RMs however, don't work through a special unique mechanism that makes them unable to scale, and are explicitly directly tied to the character's mana and statistics via statements from the author and characters in it.

So, I don't see the problem on making Gil another key for 4-C only with the non FPa weapon, the same with Rider. Gil's armour wouldn't scale, as mentioned above, this is only a massive energy feat, not physical.

But as I said the non full power weapon isn't what was used to destroy it anyway, meaning it has no reason to scale. And if you assumed it was the non full power one, it's a massive outlier because too many things would scale, making it unusable because we can't just say to ignore those other things that it scales to.

This has nothing to do with their stats, only creation and destroying which doesn't necessarily mean that It has to scale to the rest of their stats per see, and, as far as I'm aware, creation doesn't scale to physicals anymore.

It does if it meets a few criteria, we have a page on this actually.

And yeah, I know this isn't relevant for the current scaling, but I think it would be better if these characters got another key.
And, well, it's fine if it doesn't scale, nor that It needs to scale to the other NP. We got some cases like this in the wiki.

There's nothing here to give them another key, this is just an outlier that's far above everything else. They didn't receive a power boost to preform these feats, or get stronger or weaker, it's just an ability that would scale to other things, but is vastly above everything else. And again, we can't just ignore things that would scale to it in this case, because if you have to ignore a bunch of things that would scale, that just proves its an outlier, especially if you try to say it wasn't full power Enuma Elish, but just Ea that did this.

For example, EOS Naruto, or Isshiki are stronger than Kaguya yet they aren't 4-C (Mind you, as I said above, that currently Chakra is accepted to scale to physicals in most cases).

Again this is an unrelated verse, but ETSB has its own reasons for not directly scaling to Kaguya or people who are stronger than her, but unrelated to that, there's other 4-C feats anyway that might be used eventually

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Those aren't even in the same verse so I'm not sure why they're being mentioned, however those cases, especially Kaguya with the etsb, make specific note that they're more impressive. RMs however, don't work through a special unique mechanism that makes them unable to scale, and are explicitly directly tied to the character's mana and statistics via statements from the author and characters in it.

But as I said the non full power weapon isn't what was used to destroy it anyway, meaning it has no reason to scale. And if you assumed it was the non full power one, it's a massive outlier because too many things would scale, making it unusable because we can't just say to ignore those other things that it scales to.

It does if it meets a few criteria, we have a page on this actually.

There's nothing here to give them another key, this is just an outlier that's far above everything else. They didn't receive a power boost to preform these feats, or get stronger or weaker, it's just an ability that would scale to other things, but is vastly above everything else. And again, we can't just ignore things that would scale to it in this case, because if you have to ignore a bunch of things that would scale, that just proves its an outlier, especially if you try to say it wasn't full power Enuma Elish, but just Ea that did this.

Again this is an unrelated verse, but ETSB has its own reasons for not directly scaling to Kaguya or people who are stronger than her, but unrelated to that, there's other 4-C feats anyway that might be used eventually

Then I suppose you agree with MHX part?

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'd personally just wait for the upcoming CRT, since she's supposed to be getting a servantverse key where basically all of her crazier statements or feats apply to (aside from the star destroying from the Galactic Meteor Sword), due to servantverse servants being stronger.

So the possibly 4-C might be fine I suppose, although the 5-B would be for the servantverse only

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

So the possibly 4-C might be fine I suppose,

Ok vote counted

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I'd personally just wait for the upcoming CRT, since she's supposed to be getting a servantverse key where basically all of her crazier statements or feats apply to (aside from the star destroying from the Galactic Meteor Sword), due to servantverse servants being stronger.

So the possibly 4-C might be fine I suppose, although the 5-B would be for the servantverse only

Although, I sware I remember MHX claiming that she was capable of destroying the universe. So that would give her a possibly 3-A", but It's hard to find in internet.

Also, I think it wouldn't matter if we just add her servant key through this thread, it would add less work to do.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Bump

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Also, if you guys mind, I will be doing a CRT regarding how Holy Grails collapse and make singularities, and how this would scale to some servants as they were empowered by it. People like Mash would scale, as she has fought Grail empowered servants, yes, powered by a Grail that creates dimensions with a Sun. So this caps to at most Solar System or Multi-Solar System level since one Singularity also contained multiple stars in the sky. For reference, creating/destroying/sustaining a realm with a "sky full of stars"

But anyway, I will be covering this in my next CRT.

 

[Loyd]

im fine with possibly 4-C via creation

and saber x its been to long so im not too sure tbh but i trust pauls judgement.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

im fine with possibly 4-C via creation

and saber x its been to long so im not too sure tbh but i trust pauls judgement.

Vote counted.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I agree with Paul Frank.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I agree with Paul Frank.

So you only agree with the MHX part?

 

[PsychoWarper]

Yes

 

[Paul_Frank]

Also, if you guys mind, I will be doing a CRT regarding how Holy Grails collapse and make singularities, and how this would scale to some servants as they were empowered by it. People like Mash would scale, as she has fought Grail empowered servants, yes, powered by a Grail that creates dimensions with a Sun. So this caps to at most Solar System or Multi-Solar System level since one Singularity also contained multiple stars in the sky. For reference, creating/destroying/sustaining a realm with a "sky full of stars"

But anyway, I will be covering this in my next CRT.

I'm not going to derail and explain why this doesn't work here, but before you even try that and I have to respond to that thread too because no one else does and I'm sent it 3 times, I just want you to take a second and think about how little sense 4-A servants makes in the context of Fgo, when continent level things are still outside of the scope of a servant's normal capabilities aside from some NPs usually. Just take a moment to think about how many people this would scale to (the list isn't as small as you might think), and how it quite literally just doesn't work story or feat wise.