tSSDK God tiers regen revisions

[Metalballrun]

Also, what we do with other verses isn't relevant, clearly I may end up disagreeing with the logic for those ones, too.

I'm aware. Other verses being brought up are purely due to users (or just me) looking for consistency with how these standards are being applied. Seeing verses with souls/spirits being affected by gravity (ergo having mass) yet still have characters (e.g. Aizen, Zamasu) with Godly regeneration puts this strict standard in question, since there are similarities between the cases still being tied down to certain physical property, despite both having properties of not being physical as well.

Some sort of matter that operates on completely different non-physical rules is at once different from gases or whatever other comparison you could make, and still not appropriate for Godly unless it had no physical component such as mass whatsoever.

It can apply to magic/magicules, it even sounds similar to how Reishi works in Bleach. I just don't believe souls are physical constructs which is what it is going to be treated as a fact within the profiles should the downgrade to High happens.

Things not making sense because the idea that information or whatever could have mass is absurd is true, but if the story presents that as such what are we gonna do about it? Ignore the story's mechanics because they're weird?

The thing is information particles being mentioned as having "mass" was only ever mentioned once. While non-physicality, non-corporeality and all other similar iterations of the descriptions of those states have been a thing again and again since the first volume until the eleventh. With that, it's quite clear, IMHO, that souls and spirits in TSSDK has never been meant by the author to be physical, and it was never treated as physical in the first place.

Not to say with total certainty that information / magic particle regeneration absolutely does not qualify for any sort of Godly regeneration,

Magicules/magic atoms are not really considered as Godly regeneration in the first place.
I've already stated that information particles isn't a separate fundamental aspect of existence, hence not High-Godly.
Godly regeneration stems from characters reforming after having their souls destroyed.

Not to mention, possession occurs with non-Godly regenerators all the time

I'm not saying Kagali's possession proves Godly regeneration. My point is that Kagali's consciousness was quite clearly separate from their physical manifestation, since their physical body was destroyed at that time. It's an example that souls =/= physical construct.

If a verse presents consciousness and willpower as ultimately physical in some sense, that's how it is in that verse and applying any sort of 'but that's weird and doesn't make sense' logic is just pointless. Again, not to say that this is 100% the case here, but if it is, any argument relying on 'but that's weird' is bullshit and irrelevant.

I have not uttered the praise "but that's weird" ever in my comment, that argument hasn't been mentioned until now. Saying it "doesn't make sense" however is a valid argument when it stems from how souls/spiritual forms aren't physical as described in-universe since day 1.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Who ever said it was weird? I recall saying it makes no sense, based off the other feats shown in the series.

 

[Promestein]

I just don't happen to think those feats necessarily contradict information particles having mass.

 

[Metalballrun]

So then we're back to the argument of whether or not we're going to label souls as physical or not despite the entire series saying it isn't, in order for the downgrades to be applied. It needs to be clarified and explicitly stated in the profiles in order to avoid confusion and adhere to site standards.

Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

Nothing about mass is stated there, and the reason why godly regeneration was accepted in the verse before was because of it conforming to the highlighted parts of the definition. It just seems to be awfully nitpicky, at least the equivalent of disqualifying it because of it still adhering to other physical properties as relevant as mass like gravity, force, or even light and heat.

But whatever. All I want is the profiles to have sufficient explanation regarding the downgrade.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Question, kinda derailing, will this affect the WN or just the LN?

 

[DastardlyDangerousDracoga]

Question, kinda derailing, will this affect the WN or just the LN?

LN, I believe.

 

[Helestias]

Question, kinda derailing, will this affect the WN or just the LN?

Only ln.Wn doesn't have anything related to information particles and will stay high godly

 

[Makenai]

If a verse presents consciousness and willpower as ultimately physical in some sense, that's how it is in that verse and applying any sort of 'but that's weird and doesn't make sense' logic is just pointless. Again, not to say that this is 100% the case here, but if it is, any argument relying on 'but that's

It was only stated as physical once, since vol 1 they're always stated and treated as non physical object. So the probability of a translation problem quite high though.

If we can accept such thing like conciousness/mind/willpower/soul as physical object because it have mass, why can't we accept something metaphysical to have mass too?

In the first place, things like mind/awareness/conciousness treated as physical object doesn't makes sense at all, so you accept such illogical thing because of "muh fiction" why can't we accept metaphysical as having mass too?

They're stated to have mass because in tensura verse mass = energy (IRL too) and spirits are stated to be a mass of energy too but you still can't touch them because of their intangible nature unless you're using magic. I think the godly page say something like metaphysical energy or alongs the lines.

 

[God900]

You guys see??, most people here bring scans with incorrect translations, and don't even know if they are correct.

By now, this debate is useless.

As I said, can we just close this already and wait until someone finds accurate translations, or if a Japanese speaker shows Up?

We are just wasting our time speculating and using contradictory statements on this thread.
Belive me, that would be the most inteligent thing to do.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Constantly attempting to shut down any conversation whenever it skews towards a downgrade hardly seems like a solely intelligence-oriented decision.

For the record, at the moment I do agree with Prom. If proof can be provided suggesting this is a false translation, then so be it. But in general, I'm against sitting here with ostensibly false pages in the name of waiting for proof of the opposite that may never arrive.

 

[God900]

Constantly attempting to shut down any conversation whenever it skews towards a downgrade hardly seems like a solely intelligence-oriented decision.

For the record, at the moment I do agree with Prom. If proof can be provided suggesting this is a false translation, then so be it. But in general, I'm against sitting here with ostensibly false pages in the name of waiting for proof of the opposite that may never arrive.

I don't know what's the problem with It.

We could just put an advise on top of Rimuru's and Diablo's page, saying that they are being currently revised, the same thing as Pennywise, for example.

Also, I'm sure that It won't be that difficult to find any Japonese speaker among the users, specially when there is a Vsbattle Page with the nationally and language of many.

 

[God900]

Wait, can someone being the user called ShiroyashaGinSan, he is a native Japanese.

He could help us here, if someone has his discord we could contact him.

 

[Metalballrun]

Eh, I said my piece. If that wasn't enough, then so be it.

Wait, can someone being the user called ShiroyashaGinSan, he is a native Japanese.

You need to prepare what you want to have translated before calling a translator.

 

[God900]

Eh, I said my piece. If that wasn't enough, then so be it.

You need to prepare what you want to have translated before calling a translator.

Well, if you or someonelse could send me raw scans in Japanese, I would appriciate it a lot.

 

[Helestias]

Eh, I said my piece. If that wasn't enough, then so be it.

You need to prepare what you want to have translated before calling a translator.

Well, if you or someonelse could send me raw scans in Japanese, I would appriciate it a lot.

I really don't wanted to help in this revision as i will be ignored but anyway i collectted the Japanese raw scan and both google and deepl translaton for the line.It would be helpful if someone could check it out who knows Legit Japanese

It says:
《否。今のままでは不可能です。最小単位である情報子への千渉権限がありません》
Google translate:"no. It is impossible as it is now. You do not have the authority to cross over to the smallest unit, the information child(probably particle).

it completely lacks the word physical

Now for deepl:"No. It's impossible as it is now. We don't have the authority to wade into the smallest unit, the informant."
Which is also kinda hard to understand but lacks the world "physical".Which was the basis of information particle having mass.
This Translation might be wrong so i suggest let it check by someone who Knows Japanese

 

[Helestias]

I have talked with tensura fandom discords translaton team.They said it doesn't have the word physical.It is the smallest particles but not in a physical sense.
Even magicule and spirit particles are particles but you can't touch them,or see them(just feel them).
You can check it out by vsb translaton team anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

I really don't wanted to help in this revision as i will be ignored but anyway i collectted the Japanese raw scan and both google and deepl translaton for the line.It would be helpful if someone could check it out who knows Legit Japanese

It says:
《否。今のままでは不可能です。最小単位である情報子への千渉権限がありません》
Google translate:"no. It is impossible as it is now. You do not have the authority to cross over to the smallest unit, the information child(probably particle).

it completely lacks the word physical

Now for deepl:"No. It's impossible as it is now. We don't have the authority to wade into the smallest unit, the informant."
Which is also kinda hard to understand but lacks the world "physical".Which was the basis of information particle having mass.
This Translation might be wrong so i suggest let it check by someone who Knows Japanese

@Qliphoth_Bacikal @ShiroyashaGinSan @ChocomilkAlex @Sera_EX

Would any of you be willing to translate this for us please?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, for the record, as far as I am aware, photons do not have mass either, and restoring oneself from them is still considered to be High regeneration.

 

[Helestias]

They aren't really like photon if they were energy or anything that was physical it couldn't possibly effect soul which is non physical

But I'm not participating in the debates Anymore.Just wanted to provide the raw scans.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

《否。今のままでは不可能です。最小単位である "情報子" への干渉権限がありません》

<No. As of now, it is impossible. We do not have the power to interfere with the smallest unit, "information">

---

This is what I roughly got.

"情報" means information here, so this is right. 最小 means something like "smallest" or "minimal" and 単位 is unit. I checked around to make sure it didn't specify anything as physical and there was none. It just says that 情報子 is the smallest unit there is.

Note that I purposely left out the 子 part since it has something to do with meaning like a child or whatever. But aside from that, it looks checked out to me here.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Qliphoth. We appreciate it.

 

[Promestein]

What about the mass quote?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Like we said, horrible translations.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps Qliphoth would be willing to translate those sections as well, if somebody has access to the raw scans for them.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@Milly_Rocking_Bandit Did the ENG version by chance say something about physical? If so, IDK how one could have added that in when I don't see anything on there that even implies it since it's just talking about a unit, which I'm sure you know is relating to something you measure with.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Oh I see now. I was only focusing on the green highlight part. There's more to it there since I didn't bother to check.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

@Milly_Rocking_Bandit Did the ENG version by chance say something about physical? If so, IDK how one could have added that in when I don't see anything on there that even implies it since it's just talking about a unit, which I'm sure you know is relating to something you measure with.

Yes, it did say they were physical and had mass. Yen Press is awful, this is the same place that called a lightning bolt light speed. That’s why I’ve said we keep rectifying past mistranslations and inconsistencies.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Hmm. Well, I did look into the rest of the scan above since Promestein brought it up, and found this line here.

"霊子" よりも極小で、質量が限りなくゼロに近い物質。それが "情報子” なのだと。この世のあらゆる物質は、"情報子" を必ず含むのだという。

A substance that is much smaller than the "spirit", containing mass that is as close to zero as possible. That is "information". Everything in this world is said to always contain "information".

For clarification notes on the kanji:

• 霊子 > soul or spirit
• 極小 > minuscule or very small or the like
• 質量 > Mass
• 物質 > Matter/material or substance

 

[Promestein]

Rather than just say it's a horrible translation, provide an alternative translation by someone who knows the language.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

All we’ve been using is DeepTL, so.

 

[Zencha9]

I have no idea how this discussion has gone this far when information being physical literally breaks the setting of the verse

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Alrighty...just to make sure I didn't possibly break anyone's bubbles, does what I found change anything that much or is the same more or less?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Alrighty...just to make sure I didn't possibly break anyone's bubbles, does what I found change anything that much or is the same more or less?

I mean, it confirms what we’ve been saying, information, skills, spirits, and spirit particles are not physical.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Ah.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Fuse and YenPress translations are no stranger to inconsistencies, and it’s pretty common that we often have to check the raws (that give an entirely different picture).

 

[Promestein]

A substance that is much smaller than the "spirit", containing mass that is as close to zero as possible

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo it does have mass, in the original translation, then

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hm.

 

[Makenai]

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo it does have mass, in the original translation, then

It does have mass closest to zero but it's not physical by any means, you are accepting something like conciousness to be a physical object because of "Muh fiction" now why can't you accept metaphysical particles to have mass for the same reason?

I mean godly page says something about metaphysical energy no?

Like i said in tensura mass = energy (irl too) in this sense information particles contain some sort of mass because it does carries energy. But still its not physical.

 

[Promestein]

I mean, if they have mass I doubt they're metaphysical.

 

[Makenai]

Then everything that have been shown and statement that has been made even by the narrator since volume 1 is wrong according to you.

Aren't you're the one that argue conciousness is a physical object because of Muh fiction? Then again why we have to ignore everything just because everything have mass must be physical while conciousness can be argued to be not metaphysical with "Muh fiction"?

Again in tensura mass = energy, they have some sort of mass because they're carries energy.

Then metaphysical energy is also a thing.