tSSDK God tiers regen revisions

[Zencha9]

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo it does have mass, in the original translation, then

Even if this statment says it has mass why would we use this exact statement and ignore pretty much everything in the series that says otherwise?
And why would we use this exact statement that literally breaks the verse's entire settings?

 

[Metalballrun]

I get it. The logic now here is that mass = physical.
Which is true enough. That means that, since a good number of fiction involving spirits, is also affected by gravity, or if they create any kind of force whatsoever (since force is just mass x acceleration), or anything that pertains to a single physical property, that means those are physical as well. They just operate in nonphysical rules as Prom said.

So we're just going to treat characters who can come back from their existence destroyed as High regeneration since everyone and everything are physical anyways. We'll still keep Nonphysical Interaction, since they're also Nonphysical at the same time, I guess.

Also, verses like Bleach and Dragon Ball whose souls/spirits still get affected by gravity and/or possess physical features such as speed and force, cannot have Godly regeneration either. I'm sure the staff have been making sure to extend this sort of logic to the rest of the verses in the site.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So, we’re taking everything down with us? Because, again, as multiple users suggest, and the numerous contradictions that have been made, this’ll **** over more than TenSura.

 

[Promestein]

I'd say an explicit confirmation of these things having mass is worth more than the topic just not being broached elsewhere, honestly.

 

[Makenai]

I'd say an explicit confirmation of these things having mass is worth more than the topic just not being broached elsewhere, honestly.

I think their point is a single physical property would still **** over every other non-physicality statements and feats.

These things are confirmed to have mass yet at the same time they're also confirmed to be a non-physical particles in almost every occasion they're mentioned.

 

[Metalballrun]

I'd rather have the standards of the Regeneration page be modified to specify these kinds of instances so that no further "confusion" happens again in the future.
If people were aware that even having a single description of a physical property disqualifies them from Godly regeneration then TSSDK along with probably several other verses wouldn't have applied Godly regen based on the description in the Regen page. One look at it and no one would normally assume that having mass, affected by gravity, having speed or force would mean they're actually physical by site's standards.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Again, inconsistencies happen, the whole point we’ve been making is how inconsistent this is with what’s actually shown.

 

[Worthless]

Nobody has actually offered anything to dissuade me from my evaluation of the evidence earlier. If those statements provided earlier don't extend to the VN (IIRC they were solely from the LN, so I won't speak on the former), then I can't give a verdict regarding the VN. If information particles possess mass, soul particles possess mass, etc, then they aren't sufficient for Godly regen. That's just how it is. I don't know why people in this thread have turned to the argument of "you just don't know Slime", when the supporters of Slime are the ones ostensibly providing the information (as they should, for the record) that fuels this point of view.

If someone wants to further elaborate on the situation in a single cohesive post to rectify any misunderstandings (preferably Milly or smth, since they seem to be upset we've not been taking them into account enough), now would be the time. But as far as I'm concerned, given all the above particles have mass, I'm hardcore against Mid-Godly and am currently opposed to Low-Godly. High would be acceptable.

Rimuru is already high and true dragon is already Low-godly lmao also are we gonna ignore that he can regenerate from soul destruction? Lol people here...

 

[Metalballrun]

Also, for the record, as far as I am aware, photons do not have mass either, and restoring oneself from them is still considered to be High regeneration.

Photons technically don't have mass, but they still have energy (therefore still have effective mass).
If we're being really nitpicky about it, the only thing that truly doesn't have mass is literal nothingness. Anything that exist will have some form of mass and energy.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the issue here is if they reconstruct themselves from physical particles or something more metaphysical after no particles remain.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Honestly surprised that the mention of it having mass, as almost non-existent as it can possibly be, makes this that much of a big topic to get around on lol.

I can see why is the problem, but still. ^^;

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd rather have the standards of the Regeneration page be modified to specify these kinds of instances so that no further "confusion" happens again in the future.
If people were aware that even having a single description of a physical property disqualifies them from Godly regeneration then TSSDK along with probably several other verses wouldn't have applied Godly regen based on the description in the Regen page. One look at it and no one would normally assume that having mass, affected by gravity, having speed or force would mean they're actually physical by site's standards.

One shouldn't, generally, assume anything. I'd like to think other verses likely don't have this issue since this is the first time I've heard anything about it but I s'pose I can't be certain of that. I also think the regen page is clear enough that Godly is for totally non-physical regeneration.

Again, inconsistencies happen, the whole point we’ve been making is how inconsistent this is with what’s actually shown.

Is that the whole point? I'm fairly sure the point others were making was that they were in fact totally non-physical, which is objectively not the case. It's a small detail but it is a small detail that matters.

Rimuru is already high and true dragon is already Low-godly lmao also are we gonna ignore that he can regenerate from soul destruction? Lol people here...

If you've got nothing better to do, get out of the thread- this seems a simple enough concept to grasp. In case you missed what the thread was about, it is regarding what regeneration level these characters should have. I'm arguing in favor of High, given that we have an explicit statement that prevents anything else. Thanks for understanding.

Photons technically don't have mass, but they still have energy (therefore still have effective mass).
If we're being really nitpicky about it, the only thing that truly doesn't have mass is literal nothingness. Anything that exist will have some form of mass and energy.

In real life, sure. But this isn't really the case for fiction. In my experience souls aren't really commonly said to have mass at all.

Honestly surprised that the mention of it having mass, as almost non-existent as it can possibly be, makes this that much of a big topic to get around on lol.

I can see why is the problem, but still. ^^;

shit happens, ig

 

[Zencha9]

Like i said above is there ANY reason whatsoever to take this statement seriously when it literally breaks both the setting amd narrative of the verse?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Is that the whole point? I'm fairly sure the point others were making was that they were in fact totally non-physical, which is objectively not the case. It's a small detail but it is a small detail that matters.

Literally, yes. This breaks the entire verse and has multiple examples that contradict that very fact. How is Rimuru’s regeneration supposed to be inferior in his stronger key to his key when he was weaker? I’ve argued all I can and given everything, none of us have decided to budge.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Literally, yes. This breaks the entire verse and has multiple examples that contradict that very fact. How is Rimuru’s regeneration supposed to be inferior in his stronger key to his key when he was weaker? I’ve argued all I can and given everything, none of us have decided to budge.

I'm sorry? This is for the LN, no? In which case his weaker keys have High as well. This is a non-issue, friend.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I'm sorry? This is for the LN, no? In which case his weaker keys have High as well. This is a non-issue, friend.

Yes, it is. I’m saying his regeneration (if this goes through) will make his regeneration inferior to his previous key, despite being stronger in every category.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yes, it is. I’m saying his regeneration (if this goes through) will make his regeneration inferior to his previous key, despite being stronger in every category.

But it... won't? Nor does that actually matter? Wha?

For me, at least, this implies at most High regen. His previous key is High. Thus it isn't weaker. Nor does it need to get stronger, I literally don't understand where that perception comes from. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

But it... won't? Nor does that actually matter? Wha?

For me, at least, this implies at most High regen. His previous key is High. Thus it isn't weaker. Nor does it need to get stronger, I literally don't understand where that perception comes from. It doesn't make sense.

It was literally one of the first things pointed out during this downgrade, how it logically makes no sense for his regeneration to be inferior in-verse due to this. It doesn’t make sense to you, surely, but like I’ve already said, we’ve given all the evidence we can against it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It was literally one of the first things pointed out during this downgrade, how it logically makes no sense for his regeneration to be inferior in-verse due to this. It doesn’t make sense to you, surely, but like I’ve already said, we’ve given all the evidence we can against it.

Okay, so since I am forced to explain how the wiki functions on a basic level...

Let's say Character A gets their hand cuts off by Character B. Now, in a previous arc, Character A had Mid regen feats. Character A regenerates their hand, a Low-Mid feat. Character A isn't suddenly, randomly, downgraded. If Rimuru genuinely has better feats, they still scale- I'm simply arguing that regenerating from Information, in this specific verse, isn't a High-Godly feat. It is a High feat. Nothing you have said dissuaded this.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Okay, so since I am forced to explain how the wiki functions on a basic level...

You’re not at gunpoint, I’m not forcing you to do anything, stop. This is the second time you’ve acted like I’m physically forcing you to do something.

Let's say Character A gets their hand cuts off by Character B. Now, in a previous arc, Character A had Mid regen feats. Character A regenerates their hand, a Low-Mid feat. Character A isn't suddenly, randomly, downgraded. If Rimuru genuinely has better feats, they still scale- I'm simply arguing that regenerating from Information, in this specific verse, isn't a High-Godly feat. It is a High feat. Nothing you have said dissuaded this.

We have literally explained many times over how everything being made of information contradicts dozens of other plot points, physiologies, and lore. Nothing I’ve said had dissuaded you, because like I’ve said, we’ve literally given everything. I’m not sure how it’s outright possible to have stated no physicality, but then have “close to zero mass”, which is literally a result of Fuse being inconsistent.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You’re not at gunpoint, I’m not forcing you to do anything, stop. This is the second time you’ve acted like I’m physically forcing you to do something.


We have literally explained many times over how everything being made of information contradicts dozens of other plot points, physiologies, and lore. Nothing I’ve said had dissuaded you, because like I’ve said, we’ve literally given everything. I’m not sure how it’s outright possible to have stated no physicality, but then have “close to zero mass”, which is literally a result of Fuse being inconsistent.

I am required to explain things if you don't understand them. That is the only way discussion moves forward. It is annoying, exasperating, and since I recognize you've been here for some time, surprising. Hence agitation. I apologize for letting loose some abrasiveness, but ultimately I am in fact required to do that.

No, you haven't. You have stated it many times, sure. However it wouldn't matter anyways. If the verse describes them as being physical (in the sense that they have mass), then they do. It is as simple as that- I was happy to drop the argument if it turns out the translations were wrong. But they aren't, and thus I am not. Unless it can actually be disproven, I remain firm. Fiction failing to make sense doesn't disprove this, so here I am.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I am required to explain things if you don't understand them. That is the only way discussion moves forward. It is annoying, exasperating, and since I recognize you've been here for some time, surprising. Hence agitation. I apologize for letting loose some abrasiveness, but ultimately I am in fact required to do that.

You think I don’t understand them. Again, this was a point brought very early in the thread. It’s not the first time you’ve been condescending to me on the thread, and even though I don’t even particularly enjoy this, you don’t see me breaking TenSura like you’re a child.

No, you haven't. You have stated it many times, sure. However it wouldn't matter anyways. If the verse describes them as being physical (in the sense that they have mass), then they do. It is as simple as that- I was happy to drop the argument if it turns out the translations were wrong. But they aren't, and thus I am not. Unless it can actually be disproven, I remain firm. Fiction failing to make sense doesn't disprove this, so here I am.

You continue to miss the point, again and again. The translation has no statement of physicality, as stated by people in the discord and Qil, earlier. Yet it later says “close to zero mass”, which, again, is Fuse being inconsistent. You keep saying “fiction failing to make sense doesn’t disprove this”, like this doesn’t discredit his entire LN from the lord HE made. Like I said, there’s absolutely nothing left I can say because the numerous examples I’ve given that breaks the lore, so, I guess here I am.

 

[Worthless]

Delete? no warning or something? It's not like that sarcastic gonna work on you right? And yeah i thought you were literally talking about rimuru himself and not the "information particles" since the other mods keep saying it should be downgrade to high or low-godly when even if you remove that information particles he is still mid-godly in regeneration.

 

[Antvasima]

Bambu is correct, and you are required to adhere to thorough staff rulings and help to apply them.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I could chalk it up to the author just being weird (inconsistent) for putting that in there. Especially if this was just a one time thing compared to the numerous other points of this "information particle" thing's nature stated elsewhere in the series.

But I haven't followed it up much on this series for a long time and this is just my thoughts of what this issue is right now.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that is a valid point.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I’m pretty sure that’s what the others have been saying here now that I think about it.

I was just being more straightforward here ^^;

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Axxtentacle]

That's what they've been trying to say.

Qliphoth is saying what they've been saying with slightly different wording, it's a 1 time statement that's inconsistent with everything else. Why take that inconsistency to downgrade an entire verse?

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. What do you think Bambu and Promestein?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Holy crap, so one inconsistency nukes the entire narrative that has consistently portrayed otherwise??

 

[Axxtentacle]

I understand the logic of "it's a canon statement describing what information is, so we should use it.", but all this means is that this statement is the outlier.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Please don't make these comments. They just derail it and invite arguments.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Please don't make these comments. They just derail it and invite arguments.

True, I already deleated my comment, I don't want this thread to extent much more.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

In any case, it would make better sense that even IF the author did put this, not only would this deem be an outlier as said above, it would also go against the lore and concept behind what information particles have been described no?

I don't know how many times they were noted as nor when this takes place but if what was said about information is stated of what it is right up coming this moment here in however the translators put it, would the amount of info before and even after this part not outweigh this single instance?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

In any case, it would make better sense that even IF the author did put this, not only would this deem be an outlier as said above, it would also go against the lore and concept behind what information particles have been described no?

I don't know how many times they were noted as nor when this takes place but if what was said about information is stated of what it is right up coming this moment here in however the translators put it, would the amount of info before and even after this part not outweigh this single instance?

Yeah, inconsistencies are normal, almost every franchise has one. This inconsistency should be treated as an outlier and that's all.

 

[Metalballrun]

Well, the issue here is if they reconstruct themselves from physical particles or something more metaphysical after no particles remain.

It has never been described to be physical. It's being argued in this thread that it is, though, because it was described to have mass close to zero. Which a) contradicts the rest of the series, and b) a nonphysical particles being described to have some sort of mass isn't really an unthinkable concept in fiction.

I'd like to think other verses likely don't have this issue since this is the first time I've heard anything about it but I s'pose I can't be certain of that. I also think the regen page is clear enough that Godly is for totally non-physical regeneration.

Yeah, that's what has been happening here. Those other verses, much like this one, had their spirits and souls described as nonphysical (or some other, similar portrayals and descriptions), hence satisfying the definition of the Regen page. Those verses, much like this one, is still described/portrayed to have physical properties (in fact more-so than TSSDK). So that must mean that all of those verses would have their godly regen nulled.

In real life, sure. But this isn't really the case for fiction. In my experience souls aren't really commonly said to have mass at all.

Is it really crazy for something to be described as nonphysical and still have "mass" of some sort? Like you said, this is fiction. Even disregarding how the statement is the outlier among the rest of consistent nonphysical descriptions and portrayals in-universe.

Insisting otherwise is just insisting to strictly apply real world mechanics on fiction, which isn't necessarily an incorrect thing to do, but it is in this case because of how it's contradicted by the narrative of the story. And why not just stop at mass? Anything affected by gravity is physical. Heat is a physical property. Energy is a physical property, as well as force.

Because what's happening here is that: the entire setting has clearly described its nonphysical aspects, which includes souls. Yet one statement about information particles having mass, and we invalidate everything else (despite a. nonphysical particles being described to have some sort of mass isn't really an unthinkable concept in fiction, and b. it's an inconsistency at most).

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Hmm, never thought of it that way.

 

[Axxtentacle]

So... what exactly are we concluding? Are we waiting for a reply?

 

[Makenai]

It has never been described to be physical. It's being argued in this thread that it is, though, because it was described to have mass close to zero. Which a) contradicts the rest of the series, and b) a nonphysical particles being described to have some sort of mass isn't really an unthinkable concept in fiction.

Yeah, that's what has been happening here. Those other verses, much like this one, had their spirits and souls described as nonphysical (or some other, similar portrayals and descriptions), hence satisfying the definition of the Regen page. Those verses, much like this one, is still described/portrayed to have physical properties (in fact more-so than TSSDK). So that must mean that all of those verses would have their godly regen nulled.

Is it really crazy for something to be described as nonphysical and still have "mass" of some sort? Like you said, this is fiction. Even disregarding how the statement is the outlier among the rest of consistent nonphysical descriptions and portrayals in-universe.

Insisting otherwise is just insisting to strictly apply real world mechanics on fiction, which isn't necessarily an incorrect thing to do, but it is in this case because of how it's contradicted by the narrative of the story. And why not just stop at mass? Anything affected by gravity is physical. Heat is a physical property. Energy is a physical property, as well as force.

Because what's happening here is that: the entire setting has clearly described its nonphysical aspects, which includes souls. Yet one statement about information particles having mass, and we invalidate everything else (despite a. nonphysical particles being described to have some sort of mass isn't really an unthinkable concept in fiction, and b. it's an inconsistency at most).

Pretty much this is.

They're argued and accepted a conciousness, awareness, mental world etc. to be physical because of "Muh fiction" but they didn't accept the opposite; a metaphysical object that have some sort of physical trait for the same reason (Muh fiction).

And agree that seems like an outlier at most.