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tSSDK God tiers regen revisions

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Antvasima said:
I still agree with First Witch, Mr. Bambu, and Promestein. We need to decide whether we should apply High, Low-Godly, or Mid-Godly regeneration though.
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Just a note that regardless what is decided here, it has to actually be applied in practice.
 
Promestein said:
If there is magicule to spend on the regeneration, not everything would be erased, making it Mid-Godly at best. In fact, given that Endless Regeneration is, as a skill, part of the soul, to my understanding, and is made out of information itself, would that not count as a source, also disqualifying High-Godly?
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I’m fine compromising on Mid-Godly, as this isn’t the first time Fuse/Yen-Press has given contradictory statements. If Elizhaa has access to the raw scans, we should get her and probably put it through a DeepTL.

I’m assuming because it’s intrinsic, as in a part of his physiology, it’s a Skill in function, but not in actuality. Much like how Spiritual Lifeforms/True Dragons can simply come back due to their nature. There’s even a point where a Veldora threatens Ifrit that he’ll kill him on a conceptual level, but he’ll just come back at a later point.
 
Is it possible that the Spirit of life and death and time is also made of information? Since everything in that verse is an information right? It's also maybe the reason why rimuru is unaffected by conceptual destruction since he could regenerate from it?
 
I know this has been brought up multiple times but isn't Rimuru already meet the condition for high-godly?. Body, mind/conscious, soul and spirit/concept at universal scale all of it is a lump of an information and rimuru could regenerate from it? What's the point of continuing this? moreover those who oppose doesn't even fully know tensura verse

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying concept(s) or information needed for them to exist.
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It might be the case for the WN.
But in the LN, it seems that information particles aren't really a separate fundamental aspect of existence. So they're Mid-Godly, IMO.
 
Nobody has actually offered anything to dissuade me from my evaluation of the evidence earlier. If those statements provided earlier don't extend to the VN (IIRC they were solely from the LN, so I won't speak on the former), then I can't give a verdict regarding the VN. If information particles possess mass, soul particles possess mass, etc, then they aren't sufficient for Godly regen. That's just how it is. I don't know why people in this thread have turned to the argument of "you just don't know Slime", when the supporters of Slime are the ones ostensibly providing the information (as they should, for the record) that fuels this point of view.

If someone wants to further elaborate on the situation in a single cohesive post to rectify any misunderstandings (preferably Milly or smth, since they seem to be upset we've not been taking them into account enough), now would be the time. But as far as I'm concerned, given all the above particles have mass, I'm hardcore against Mid-Godly and am currently opposed to Low-Godly. High would be acceptable.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
If information particles possess mass, soul particles possess mass, etc, then they aren't sufficient for Godly regen. That's just how it is. I don't know why people in this thread have turned to the argument of "you just don't know Slime", when the supporters of Slime are the ones ostensibly providing the information (as they should, for the record) that fuels this point of view.
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Information Particles having mass makes no sense, because I’ve already shown you anything past normal Skills are literally abstract representations of thoughts, ideas, and come from the soul. Unless you’re saying those are physical too, as well, which would make everything in the verse physical, which is contradicted by people like Ifrit being a spirit.

Fundamentally, everything being physical directly goes against the physiology of the verse, considering Spirit Particles are capable of attacking souls, which Hinata specifically uses when she fights Rimuru, and he notes that it doesn’t do any physical damage to him, just his soul. There’s a clear distinction between physical and non-physical.

I’m not the one saying “you don’t know the series”, I was referring to the two other users who have a bias towards Maou Gakuin, and against Slime.
 
Bernkastelll said:
Idk if this would help to explain of how Souls in tensura works, but, ye, Soul in tensura is also ''Will'', and can be astral body (the operating device that does the thinking) and others things
0l2LGeZ_1.jpg
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Also soul in this manga scan shows that it is the will itself and not physical.Hinatas attack which uses Spirit particles shouldn't have effected it if it was pure physical and just destroy the body.If info particles was physical than so is spirit particles which doesn't make sense
 
I'll just mention that the Chinese raws doesn't say anything about information particles being physical. Not sure if it even matters at this point, since we're all eager to downgrade this entire thing.
《否。照目前情况看来是不可能的。无法干涉最小单位的「资讯体」。》
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Though I've seen verses like Bleach and Dragon Ball treat souls and spirits as having mass and being affected by gravity, yet still having characters that qualify for Godly regeneration (Aizen, Zamasu Chou) or Non Physical related powers.
We will have to explain these instances though, should we apply the downgrades:
Magic being capable of intervening and rewriting the laws of physics.
Spirit magic such as Ifrit's Flame Transform can't be done by Rimuru if he's using a physical body, because it's spiritual manifestation and not physical.
Spiritual lifeforms not being able to last in the physical world because they don't have physical forms and therefore consume too much magic to exist.
The material body, being separate from the spiritual body, astral body, and the soul. Like Kagali being able to exist as mere consciousness and attempt to possess Yuuki's body, after his physical body was destroyed. And many other examples.
The material body is the physical body that is connected to the world. Whereas the soul is a consciousness, but apparently it is a physical thing since it's made of information particles. Which means literal consciousness and literal will are physical as well.
Spirits being immune from physical attacks, because they're spirits and therefore nonphysical, and only susceptible to magic. But they are still physical anyways.
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I'm bringing these up since whoever is gonna downgrade the profiles would probably have to deal with this. With souls/spirits being deemed physical, then abilities such as Non Physical Interaction and perhaps even Soul Manipulation and Mind Manipulation must be removed from the Light Novel profiles since it doesn't comply with the site's standards according to this thread. Just to let these profiles make a lick of sense.
Or maybe these can be left alone, and let someone else make a CRT about it.
 
I think that Bambu makes sense, and that we should apply his intended downgrades.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Information Particles having mass makes no sense, because I’ve already shown you anything past normal Skills are literally abstract representations of thoughts, ideas, and come from the soul. Unless you’re saying those are physical too, as well, which would make everything in the verse physical, which is contradicted by people like Ifrit being a spirit.

Fundamentally, everything being physical directly goes against the physiology of the verse, considering Spirit Particles are capable of attacking souls, which Hinata specifically uses when she fights Rimuru, and he notes that it doesn’t do any physical damage to him, just his soul. There’s a clear distinction between physical and non-physical.

I’m not the one saying “you don’t know the series”, I was referring to the two other users who have a bias towards Maou Gakuin, and against Slime.
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It making sense doesn't matter. If they are stated to have mass, then they have mass. I'm not saying anything that wasn't told to me by supporters of the verse. The existence of a spirit doesn't negate this given that gases exist.

Again, if they are stated to have mass, they have mass, and thus don't qualify even remotely for Godly levels of regen. I'm not seeing this "clear distinction".

You are not the only one in this thread, Milly. Believe it or not, other people have said such things.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Bambu makes sense, and that we should apply his intended downgrades.
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I'd like to let any confusion be wrung out, if its all the same. Prom should also preferably speak, since she is admittedly more level-headed than I.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
It making sense doesn't matter. If they are stated to have mass, then they have mass. I'm not saying anything that wasn't told to me by supporters of the verse. The existence of a spirit doesn't negate this given that gases exist.
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Considering this is the same author who’s proven to have multiple inconsistencies that were rectified by said supporters, I’m saying this is inconsistent to what has been shown several times in the series.

Mr._Bambu said:
You are not the only one in this thread, Milly. Believe it or not, other people have said such things.
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I’m not even sure what this means, but okay...???
 
I certainly hope spirits being explicitly described to not being physical and physical attacks not working on them, isn't actually being compared to gases.
Like we've seen Rimuru's water blade being useless on Ifrit not because the latter was a fire elemental, but because water blade was a physical attack and it wouldn't have worked on Ifrit anyways.
Or Kagali being able to exist as a disembodied consciousness. Or Hinata's sword not doing physical harm but attacking the spirit body directly.

Anyways, I doubt minds have changed at all. Just a heads up, the only profiles in the Light Novel affected by this is Diablo's and Rimuru's, assuming anyone actually read anything that I said.
 
Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
Considering this is the same author who’s proven to have multiple inconsistencies that were rectified by said supporters, I’m saying this is inconsistent to what has been shown several times in the series.


I’m not even sure what this means, but okay...???
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I'm also unsure what you're trying to say in the first bit. Wdym you guys "rectified inconsistencies"?

Since I'm forced to explain things... the latter bit.

Me: "I don't know why people in this thread have turned to the argument of "you just don't know Slime", when the supporters of Slime are the ones ostensibly providing the information (as they should, for the record) that fuels this point of view."

Milly: "I’m not the one saying “you don’t know the series”, I was referring to the two other users who have a bias towards Maou Gakuin, and against Slime."

Me: "You are not the only one in this thread, Milly. Believe it or not, other people have said such things."

Milly: "I’m not even sure what this means, but okay...???"

Get it now? Yay?
 
Guys, could we just close this thread and downgrade them to Mid-Godly?, I think that this topic has already reached to a agreement.
 
God900 said:
Guys, could we just close this thread and downgrade them to Mid-Godly?, I think that this topic has already reached to a agreement.
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I do not agree with Mid-Godly, however.
 
It clearly hasn't reached an agreement.

Some sort of matter that operates on completely different non-physical rules is at once different from gases or whatever other comparison you could make, and still not appropriate for Godly unless it had no physical component such as mass whatsoever. Things not making sense because the idea that information or whatever could have mass is absurd is true, but if the story presents that as such what are we gonna do about it? Ignore the story's mechanics because they're weird?

This is not to say this is necessarily the case with TSSDK. It seems to me like translation issues could very well have a role here, as well as a clusterfuck of misrepresented information from conflicting canons that makes it extremely difficult to keep track of things, especially when I'm not exactly an expert on the verse here. I haven't claimed to be. I'm just picking apart what's presented to me.

Also, what we do with other verses isn't relevant, clearly I may end up disagreeing with the logic for those ones, too.
Magic being capable of intervening and rewriting the laws of physics.
Spirit magic such as Ifrit's Flame Transform can't be done by Rimuru if he's using a physical body, because it's spiritual manifestation and not physical.
Spiritual lifeforms not being able to last in the physical world because they don't have physical forms and therefore consume too much magic to exist.
The material body, being separate from the spiritual body, astral body, and the soul. Like Kagali being able to exist as mere consciousness and attempt to possess Yuuki's body, after his physical body was destroyed. And many other examples.
The material body is the physical body that is connected to the world. Whereas the soul is a consciousness, but apparently it is a physical thing since it's made of information particles. Which means literal consciousness and literal will are physical as well.
Spirits being immune from physical attacks, because they're spirits and therefore nonphysical, and only susceptible to magic. But they are still physical anyways.
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Not to say with total certainty that information / magic particle regeneration absolutely does not qualify for any sort of Godly regeneration, but none of these things necessarily make it impossible for them to be a different sort of matter that would still have mass and not qualify for a Godly regeneration. Just off the top of my head, in Mahouka, part of the system revolves around clearly some sort of physical information particles that exist in an information dimension. Not to mention, possession occurs with non-Godly regenerators all the time (Jack Frost from the terrible ******* slasher film possesses people and he's a ******* snowman, Makuta from Bionicle possess people as just gas). Just for examples of systems in which similar things exist and yet do not mean Godly regeneration.

If a verse presents consciousness and willpower as ultimately physical in some sense, that's how it is in that verse and applying any sort of 'but that's weird and doesn't make sense' logic is just pointless. Again, not to say that this is 100% the case here, but if it is, any argument relying on 'but that's weird' is bullshit and irrelevant.
 
Guys, this thread is a mess, we are just speculating about a translation that might or not be wrong, until we have a accurate one, I think that we should just close this.

Here we are just speculating about contradictory statements.

Thiss thread is not going to take use anywhere.

As I said, I recommend closing this thread and wait until accurate translations.
 
Why wait? We have people with knowledge of the language here, don't we?
 
Promestein said:
Why wait? We have people with knowledge of the language here, don't we?
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Don't think so, those people have posted scans that they don't even know if they are translated correctly.

Also, Staff members who are experts on the verse such as Celestial Pegasus, are not willing to comment here.

Probably we should wait until Elizha or anyonelse finds a accurate translation of this, but by now, I think that we are just wasting time.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I'm also unsure what you're trying to say in the first bit. Wdym you guys "rectified inconsistencies"?
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This series often has horrible translations, that’s what I mean.

Mr._Bambu said:
Me: "You are not the only one in this thread, Milly. Believe it or not, other people have said such things."

Milly: "I’m not even sure what this means, but okay...???"

Get it now? Yay?
Click to expand...
No, I don’t. Such things as what?
 
Promestein said:
This is not to say this is necessarily the case with TSSDK. It seems to me like translation issues could very well have a role here, as well as a clusterfuck of misrepresented information from conflicting canons that makes it extremely difficult to keep track of things, especially when I'm not exactly an expert on the verse here. I haven't claimed to be. I'm just picking apart what's presented to me.
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The series translations have always been a problem, that’s why we have issues like Information Particles being physical, yet Spirits of Light and Darkness exist, which create everything and Unique Skills are literally born from your mind and idea.
 
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