tSSDK God tiers regen revisions

[Alphaapexnep00]

"Also when hinata used it on his skill it erased it."

It comes from literally you.

I think you misunderstood. Hinata used it on rimuru skill that's why I said it not him.

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

Also in my comment I clearly said "she never used it on rimuru only on his skill"

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

So...

 

[Bernkastelll]

Let's just close and ignore it as it never existed

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

Is this still going on are there any counters?

 

[Legion_Empire]

isn't the explanation of particle information which has almost zero mass only in LN?

 

[Metalballrun]

Woah there. There seems to be a need in clarification again.
First of all, again, Web Novel stuff and Light Novel stuff should be treated separately. As how we treat Slime canon at the moment, they are not canon with each other. Therefore, information from the WN cannot support LN arguments and vice versa.
However, there are similarities between WN stuff and LN stuff, it just needs complementary evidences, so judgments upon either might affect each other, in a way.

---

Now that that's cleared up, I'll reiterate that all of my arguments and queries are for Light Novel profiles only. This might not be all that relevant yet since a lot of LN characters don't have profiles yet, but it's better to clear it up now.

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Light Novel stuff
While I myself am neutral about High Godly regeneration (actually leaning to disagree at this point), there is no way that the Demons and True Dragons aren't capable of reaching up to Mid-Godly Regeneration. As was stated above and in the last thread:

• True Dragons: it has been described that True Dragons can "come back" even if their souls/core are destroyed. It is implied that Veldora died this way multiple times. However, their personalities get reset after death. These people don't have LN profiles yet. [Volume 1, Volume 5, Volume 17]
• Primordial Demons: According to Rain (Blue Primordial), Primordials can come back from any condition/cannot be destroyed. Including destruction of their core. The downside is it takes a long time (may take hundreds of years) for them to recover (except for Diablo/Primordial Black, who is implied to be capable of coming back instantly), and that they can be made subservient if they get killed by soul destruction (though this is not enforceable as servitude, they can disobey if they want to). [Volume 17, Rain's Side Story] The only one among them who has an LN profile is Diablo. [Volume 11]
• Other demons: specifically, those who are close to the primary colors, usually the Primordial Demons' subordinates. These are usually their direct subordinates. [Volume 17, Rain's Side Story].

To clarify, their souls being destroyed = being wiped from existence, as their souls are pretty much the core and root of their existence, their consciousness, the information that makes up their being. The full explanation is a bit complicated, since it also involves the astral and spiritual bodies that allows thoughts and records them. But nonetheless, for spiritual lifeforms, these are all synonymous as they can think and exist with their souls, even without a material/physical body.
Destruction of the soul means they cease to exist, they won't even be able to reincarnate, regardless of what happens to their physical body. True Dragons and Primordial Demons are capable of coming back from that, even if it's over time (for Diablo, it's implied to be instantaneous).

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Now, as for Melt Slash. I'll give my piece here.
Melt Slash is definitely capable of destroying things in all levels, from the physical body to souls, up to information particles as seen with how it destroyed Beelzebub.
Now I suppose the argument about Rimuru not having High-Godly (or in this case, Mid-Godly if Information Particles isn't accepted as a basis for High Godly, which seems to be what @Promestein and @Mr._Bambu seem to believe in favor of), is that Rimuru doesn't get completely destroyed by Melt Slash (along with his soul). Especially since he blocks the attack with Beelzebub anyways (which gets destroyed, but it still drained his magicules which is equivalent of 70% damage). Which is fair, since the definition of these things are:

Mid-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of body, mind, and soul.
High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying concept(s) or information needed for them to exist.

However, it's still implied that, with the nature of Melt Slash, it would've completely destroyed Rimuru's physical body at the very least, and Infinite Regeneration is capable of recreating it instantly. That still qualifies for Low-Godly regeneration, at least, since Raphael doesn't really say even his destroyed soul can be regenerated from Melt Slash (therefore Mid-Godly) so it's vague. However, Infinite Regeneration's description states that it "can now even regenerate from having the Spiritual Body shattered" so there is a possibility for it, and it supports Low-Godly even further.

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Tl;dr

• Light Novel versions of True Dragons and Primordial Demons still qualify for Mid-Godly regeneration if High-Godly is to be rejected. Currently affects Diablo's profile.
• Light Novel Rimuru still qualifies for at least Low Godly regeneration.

 

[Promestein]

There's a new question of whether or not these souls, which have mass, apparently, even qualify for Low-Godly if they're regenerated from.

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

It never said specified his physical body in the web novel iirc. it only said he can regenerate from the melt slash attacks. Plus I know the web novel and light novel are treated differently.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Souls need to have mass now?

Also, isn’t information stated to make up everything in the LN enough?

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

Now for the Ln. It states that rimuru can regenerate even if his spiritual body is destroyed grating mid godly. Also the physical body statement doesn't contradict high godly cause it also States in Ln that melt slash completely destroys from cells to the soul and it also destroyed rimuru's skill which are information particles. And raphael says he could regenerate from the attack granted it did say physical body but it never specified or sayed only his physical body was going to be destroyed. So the physical body statement doesn't contradict high godly.

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

Souls need to have mass now?

Also, isn’t information stated to make up everything in the LN enough?

Yes information particles are said to make up everything in the ln too.

 

[Metalballrun]

There's a new question of whether or not these souls, which have mass, apparently, even qualify for Low-Godly if they're regenerated from.

There's no reason that it wouldn't. There's nothing wrong with it having mass.
It's weirdly described, but souls here has never been treated as an actual physical object in the scientific sense. Neither is infons/information particles. It's like if souls existed to us IRL, we really have no way of interacting or quantifying it in a physical way, and the universe that Rimuru came from is basically the same as ours.
Infons are capable of forming abilities that can govern fate, probability, time and space in the form of skills. It's esoteric and supernatural.

Though I'd rather check the raws to confirm the stuff about mass but I honestly don't have the time and I'll be off-grid soon.

 

[Metalballrun]

Also, isn’t information stated to make up everything in the LN enough?

Seems like information particles doesn't satisfy the "one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence" part of the High-Godly definition. The standards should honestly be better explained IMO.
I think for infons to be qualified, a blog explaining souls and supporting the argument that infons are a fundamental aspect and not merely a building block, more importantly, a proof that it's literal information, would be necessary.
Though I'm speaking mostly from the LN, no idea if the WN already shows that.

 

[Legion_Empire]

Seems like information particles doesn't satisfy the "one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence" part of the High-Godly definition. The standards should honestly be better explained IMO.
I think for infons to be qualified, a blog explaining souls and supporting the argument that infons are a fundamental aspect and not merely a building block, more importantly, a proof that it's literal information, would be necessary.
Though I'm speaking mostly from the LN, no idea if the WN already shows that.

In WN, there is only information and no information particles

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

Ok am gonna explain everything from the beginning.


First web novel: it is stated that rimuru could regenerate from melt slash which destroys everything from cells to souls to information (which makes up everything in the world including the concepts).

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

Light novel: All forms of matter ranging from atoms to even esoteric matter like spirit particle that makes intangible beings like spirits. Skills are also made up of information particles. This case is important because abilities like Melt Slash and disintegration destroy all leaving nothing behind; Melt Slash can affect information as it could destroy Rimuru's Ultimate Skills. It should be also noted that spirit are conceptual beings.

 

[Metalballrun]

It might be better if there are scans from the WN.
I wasn't able to include ones due to time constraints but I assure that my comments were all concise and representative of LN information, plus I included citations.

It should be also noted that spirit are conceptual beings.

That needs citation.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Light novel: All forms of matter ranging from atoms to even esoteric matter like spirit particle that makes intangible beings like spirits. Skills are also made up of information particles. This case is important because abilities like Melt Slash and disintegration destroy all leaving nothing behind; Melt Slash can affect information as it could destroy Rimuru's Ultimate Skills. It should be also noted that spirit are conceptual beings.

Please make all your comments one, instead of multiple. Easier to read and takes up less space.

 

[Makenai]

If we treat everything in Tensura verse as Physical matter, then how are we going to explain fate manipulation, reality warping, subjective reality etc?

Someone like Diablo can enter people Mind/mental world and makes it become reality. So is that mental world has to be physical and not metaphysical?

Not to mention Information particles are even exist in those mental world as shown in Rimuru vs Chronoa.

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

I would do everything tomorrow I need to sleep.

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

Ok this were the reasons for rimuru high godly upgrade.
Web novel: rimuru was stated to be able to regenerate from melt slash which destroys everything from cells to souls and information. Information makes up everything in existence.
Also, genetic information has information even on the skills and memories of individuals:

“It’s quite simple, General Kristoph. I am not Alvin. I am an artificial lifeform made by my father, Fudora–a Bionoid. However, I will absorb the genetic information in this human called Alvin, as well as the biocomputer equipped in this body. That includes his personal memories and skills. You might say that I am Alvin reborn.” this is shown in chapter 362.

Venom's regenerator skill allows him to come back from complete erasure quickly and demons can do so over time; giving the context where information is an aspect of existence, the regeneration from existence erasure should be High-Godly from coming back information erasure. If accepted all the regeneration at Mid-Godly would be High-Godly and Rimuru's Mid-Godly regeneration negation would be to High-Godly.

• High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction.

Light novel: All forms of matter ranging from atoms to even esoteric matter like spirit particle that makes intangible beings like spirits. Skills are also made up of information particles. This case is important because abilities like Melt Slash and disintegration destroy all leaving nothing behind; Melt Slash can affect information as it could destroy Rimuru's Ultimate Skills. Characters like Rimuru can regenerate from such Erasure. So, their regeneration would be updated to High Godly from coming from information Erasure. Yuuki should have the regeneration negation updated to High-Godly if accepted since he could nullify Rimuru's regeneration which is explained on his page. This were the reasons for the upgrade are there any counters.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem here still seems to be that the verse treats everything as being comprised of physical particles, so recovery wouldn't be anywhere near High-Godly.

In addition, our staff members seem to have rejected this.

@First_Witch

I would appreciate your continued help here in any case.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so basically I'm being told they absolutely have physical things left of them to regenerate from, but that's fine because they're described as not following the laws of physics.

Hey, fellas, you talked me out of okay-ing Mid-Godly. We're looking at High now. Not High-Godly, just High.

Agreed.

 

[Antvasima]

I feel like you're just going to start repeating yourself over and over again so I think I'm about done laying out my arguments. One more time, though. Just for you.

1. This is treated as a physical regeneration feat, which is consistent with these particles being said to have mass.
2. This costs magicule, and would consume a lot of it. If the entirety of Rimuru's information body was destroyed, all of the magicules, which are bigger than information particles, would be as a well. As a result, logically, that is not actually true, and both some of his magicules and information particles would endure.
3. Even if Melt Slash can destroy both information and magical particles - and I agree, it can - that doesn't mean it can or would destroy the entire structure of Rimuru on all levels.
4. Melt Slash is either therefore resisted by Rimuru, the scale of its power is mistranslated, or it's simply wanked by the narrative and fails to live up to this statement.

Either way, the feat is, at worst, High, and at best, Low-Godly. In all honesty, I lean towards High.

I agree with this as well. Thank you for helping out.

Is somebody here willing to revise the regeneration levels to High instead?

 

[theultimate5105]

I also agree with downgrading it to high
unless there are other regeneration feats that are low godly or above

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’m... very confused. How did we get High regeneration when Rimuru’s first key is the exact same?

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

This would be the funniest thing ever if it became only high

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Okay, wow, there is a lot of misconceptions and blatant lies here. Give me a minute to respond.

 

[Metalballrun]

Woah there. There seems to be a need in clarification again.
First of all, again, Web Novel stuff and Light Novel stuff should be treated separately. As how we treat Slime canon at the moment, they are not canon with each other. Therefore, information from the WN cannot support LN arguments and vice versa.
However, there are similarities between WN stuff and LN stuff, it just needs complementary evidences, so judgments upon either might affect each other, in a way.

---

Now that that's cleared up, I'll reiterate that all of my arguments and queries are for Light Novel profiles only. This might not be all that relevant yet since a lot of LN characters don't have profiles yet, but it's better to clear it up now.

---

Light Novel stuff
While I myself am neutral about High Godly regeneration (actually leaning to disagree at this point), there is no way that the Demons and True Dragons aren't capable of reaching up to Mid-Godly Regeneration. As was stated above and in the last thread:

To clarify, their souls being destroyed = being wiped from existence, as their souls are pretty much the core and root of their existence, their consciousness, the information that makes up their being. The full explanation is a bit complicated, since it also involves the astral and spiritual bodies that allows thoughts and records them. But nonetheless, for spiritual lifeforms, these are all synonymous as they can think and exist with their souls, even without a material/physical body.
Destruction of the soul means they cease to exist, they won't even be able to reincarnate, regardless of what happens to their physical body. True Dragons and Primordial Demons are capable of coming back from that, even if it's over time (for Diablo, it's implied to be instantaneous).

---

Now, as for Melt Slash. I'll give my piece here.
Melt Slash is definitely capable of destroying things in all levels, from the physical body to souls, up to information particles as seen with how it destroyed Beelzebub.
Now I suppose the argument about Rimuru not having High-Godly (or in this case, Mid-Godly if Information Particles isn't accepted as a basis for High Godly, which seems to be what @Promestein and @Mr._Bambu seem to believe in favor of), is that Rimuru doesn't get completely destroyed by Melt Slash (along with his soul). Especially since he blocks the attack with Beelzebub anyways (which gets destroyed, but it still drained his magicules which is equivalent of 70% damage). Which is fair, since the definition of these things are:

However, it's still implied that, with the nature of Melt Slash, it would've completely destroyed Rimuru's physical body at the very least, and Infinite Regeneration is capable of recreating it instantly. That still qualifies for Low-Godly regeneration, at least, since Raphael doesn't really say even his destroyed soul can be regenerated from Melt Slash (therefore Mid-Godly) so it's vague. However, Infinite Regeneration's description states that it "can now even regenerate from having the Spiritual Body shattered" so there is a possibility for it, and it supports Low-Godly even further.

---

Tl;dr

• Light Novel versions of True Dragons and Primordial Demons still qualify for Mid-Godly regeneration if High-Godly is to be rejected. Currently affects Diablo's profile.
• Light Novel Rimuru still qualifies for at least Low Godly regeneration.

There's no reason that it wouldn't. There's nothing wrong with it having mass.
It's weirdly described, but souls here has never been treated as an actual physical object in the scientific sense. Neither is infons/information particles. It's like if souls existed to us IRL, we really have no way of interacting or quantifying it in a physical way, and the universe that Rimuru came from is basically the same as ours.
Infons are capable of forming abilities that can govern fate, probability, time and space in the form of skills. It's esoteric and supernatural.

Though I'd rather check the raws to confirm the stuff about mass but I honestly don't have the time and I'll be off-grid soon.

I'll just bump these again, since I won't be able to reply for the next 24 hours due to my exams.
These points are yet to be addressed by those pushing to remove Godly regen from the LN version altogether.

But if the verdict for the downgrade is already decided then there's hardly anything I can do about it. Even if it's wrong.
The staff that are supporters of the verse should probably be pinged here at the very least though. Since downgrading their regeneration to High would be contradictory to the fact that characters with inferior regeneration already has High Regen.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’ll get a response out by today.

 

[Antvasima]

@Celestial_Pegasus @Elizhaa @Dragonmasterxyz @The_real_cal_howard

Your input would be appreciated here. I personally think that Promestein's analysis seems accurate.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Please, stop relying on just mods for a correct verdict, nothing we say is going to matter if you consistently take their side, regardless of how reliable they were in the past, it makes proving our points harder, as said by King of Negativity.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, it isn't remotely about that I do not care what you have to say. I am just far too overworked to read everything.

Also, in this case I agree with the fundamental particles argument.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Again, it isn't remotely about that I do not care what you have to say. I am just far too overworked to read everything.

I mean, if you are too overworked to read everything, just don't read it now, because it would be a unfair analysis, seriously.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to try to help keep as many content revisions discussions as I can manage organised, or nothing will usually happen. It is not a perfect system, but it is far better than that I just ignore my duties and let this community collapse around me.

 

[Axxtentacle]

You really should wait for the other people to get their responses out before letting something go, though.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I have to try to help keep as many content revisions discussions as I can manage organised, or nothing will usually happen. It is not a perfect system, but it is far better than that I just ignore my duties and let this community collapse around me.

That is not helping, that is making the analysis be unfair, it would literally make any CRT be only about what Staff agreed, ignoring others arguments as well

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Skills, like everything, are made of information. However, there exists a special type of skill that is a step ahead of the regular ones, named Unique Skills, which are properly defined as:

“ There are times when the mold of one's mind and its powerful wishes give shape to skills. This is the nature of what we call "Unique Skills". The process is impossible without a mighty soul, but among such beings some can even have two or three of them. [...] A Unique Skill is the shape of the mind itself. ”

— Veldora

This right here outright debunks any notion that information is all physical, as Unique Skills are born from the mind and soul. It is further elaborated on by the fact that Skills, as a whole, a etched onto one’s soul, a non-physical aspect.

Spirit Particles target not only the physical part of one’s existence, but their spiritual components, as well. However, information particles, which make up everything, are even smaller than that. Hinata’s Melt Slash destroyed Beelzebub, an Ultimate Skill, yet Rimuru can regenerate his body AND recreate his skill.

Didn’t I just sacrifice 「Gluttonous King Beelzebub」 in order to deal with Hinata’s attack…...

《Answer. It indeed sacrificed Ultimate Skill 「Gluttonous King beelzebub」, but it won’t pose an issue since a copy of the skill has been made.》

- LN Volume 7

Ultimate Skills are crystallized dreams and ideals:

“So. Lord of Vows. Or loyalty, to put it another way. The collected prayers from those who vow fealty to me. All those prayers crystallized to form this new ultimate skill—and the moment I obtained it, I could feel a new strength.”

- LN Volume 5

“Glutton consumed Merciless to become Belzebuth, Lord of Gluttony, perfectly honed to more effectively handle its master’s desires. There, deep in an abyss beyond what Rimuru’s soul could detect, the skill softly, deeply evolved itself—all to make his own dreams come true.”

- LN Volume 5

Tl;dr: Skills, Spiritual Particles, and Information Particles are not physical, this is nowhere near High-regeneration, and Hinata targeting Rimuru attacked him on a physical, mind, soul, and information level.

 

[Antvasima]

The staff are supposed to evaluate what the regular members say instead of that I have to constantly do so for 50-60 ongoing threads at once. It is my way of spreading the workload, as I cannot work more than the 12-14 hours a day that I currently do trying to help this community.

At the end of the day I am only one person, who still has to eat, sleep, and exercise, and there are no perfect solutions for anything anywhere.

This is really the best system that we can manage under such a tremendous constant workload. If you want even more from me, that is not remotely realistic.