Transduality Wizard

[Zenkaibattery1]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Transduality

"Transduality is the state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, and qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from very specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level. If the 0 and 1 of binary systems can be considered a duality, a transdual character's fundamental existence might be definable as being in-between the numbers of 0 and 1, but also defined as being a "2", or as standing outside of the code completely at the higher levels.

As it stands, Type 1 corresponds to being beyond certain kinds of dual systems (Light and Dark, in and out, Fire and Ice, Sound and Silence, etc), but not all duality, Type 2 refers to characters whose existence may be beyond all dual systems within the nature of their reality, but not duality itself on a conceptual level, Type 3 refers to characters whose fundamental nature exists beyond the concept of duality, and Type 4 refers to characters whose existence belongs to alternate logical states wherein even the distinction between duality and transduality is irrelevant, as well as, in extremely rare cases, potentially those who can access impossible binary systems beyond the transdual on a conceptual level."

Type 1 (Specific Transduality): Being qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of one or several specific dual systems.

Type 2 (False General Transduality): Being qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of all dual systems and concepts within the scope of an entire level of reality. Any non 1-A (Outerverse level) characters who transcend duality at a basic level would also qualify for this level, as space and time can be thought of as dual concepts, as well as existing within/outside spatio-temporal dimensionality.

https://imgur.com/a/WiXVcoq

https://imgur.com/a/LD8r9OO

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442583534721433600/603720470642163746/image0-195.png

Raven and Spider are outside of such constraints. Life and death, space and time, and the wheel of existence as a whole. In the Transduality page, being superior to dual systems, such as these in general classifies as Type 2 Transduality.

 

[The_Causality]

Why I'am still here?

I want to say that what you describe from the screen is Type 1 but without context and feats, it's hard to tell

 

[Elizhaa]

The current evidences sounds like Type 1 Transduality, at best. I don't see real proofs for Type 2 Transduality

 

[Promestein]

Seems fine for Type 2

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

@Elizahh

Type 2 (False General Transduality): Being qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of all dual systems and concepts within the scope of an entire level of reality. Any non 1-A (Outerverse level) characters who transcend duality at a basic level would also qualify for this level, as space and time can be thought of as dual concepts, as well as existing within/outside spatio-temporal dimensionality.

According to this, the character needs to be outside space-time and dual systems of an entire reality.

The statements show the wheel of existence is outside of time as a whole, and that the characters are outside of existence as a whole. As well as life, death, and even mortal understanding at that level

 

[Elizhaa]

I see. The last scan looks to allude the Gods having Type 2 Transduality so I think seems fine after review.

 

[The_Causality]

I should give my opinion about this too.

Basically, if you pick each screen literally, we don't even have a link to the Transcendance of Duality, it's just Raven and Spider which exist outside of existence, and existing outside of existence don't give you Transduality, the supposed screen of duality is a whole other context and don't prove that they Transcend Duality as a whole, it just prove, that they exist outside of the existence which a duality (like literally all existing verse)

If you can prove that they Transcend Duality with statement of unbound by the whole dual system or something like that, then Type 2 is fine, but now i can barely see type 1, it's better if you give feats of this transduality and also a context, because for now it's just picked screen.

@Elizha boi if the screen was indeed about the fact that Gods are unbound by this, then it should be Type 2 but that screen don't talk about gods, but just another context where people talk about duality

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Is there evidence that Raven and Spider exist on the level described by those scans. If so then yeah, that's Type 2.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Aren't they literally reprsenting and abstracts of dual concepts though? Sounds like type 1

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Aren't they literally reprsenting and abstracts of dual concepts though? Sounds like type 1

They're representative of the concepts but they aren't bound by the concepts. Individually they could each destroy the Spiral (and the rest of existence outside of the Spiral) but in order to do that they would have to destroy the concepts which they represent.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

@Ultima

Yes, they are the Light and order, shadow and chaos that exist outisde the wheel of existence and space-time.

Anyway, seems the majority is in favor for type 2.

 

[The_Causality]

@Zenkai As i've already said in my post above, existing outside don't give you some resistance to duality, you actually need to Exist beyond/Transcend all dual system to have it and you need to prove it, that they live at this level, the scans don't give details or context about this, can you prove with a scan that Gods live at this level? if yes, it's type 2, if not probably type 1.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was summoned to a transduality thread so that's never a good sign.

I'm not sure if being above certain constraints is Transduality and I think a better explanation could be had in response to Ultima. If being aboce those things actually does count as Transduality then A. it does seem like Type 2 solely because it affects so many dual systems and B. I need to add Transduality to a few dozen pages

 

[WHYNAUT]

I don't know whether it qualifies for transduality or not so I'm neutral on that. But if it does qualify, it seems like type 1 to me.

• Type 1 (Specific Transduality): Being qualitatively beyond and superior to the nature of one or several specific dual systems.

There are several dual systems that they're outside of, but they're not said to be superior to the nature of all dual systems and concepts within the scope of an entire level of reality, which is required for type 2 transduality.

 

[Antvasima]

Has the accepted change been applied here?

 

[WHYNAUT]

I don't believe anything has been accepted yet. People are still debating.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Except, the statements clearly say

"But time is an illusion, look beyond it and you will see existence is a wheel" i.e, there are things beyond existence. These things beyond existence are:

However, when you step off the wheel and look beyond it, you see light and order (Raven), shadow and chaos (Spider). Meaning, they are beyond space-time constraints and existence.

You can disagree with this, but according to the Transduality page. This is Type 2 Transduality, as they are beyond the constraints of dual systems like space and time, as well as existence as a whole.

In fact, WoG himself said even The Wizard at this point should not be bound by the regular orders of the universe.

Even if this is just type 1, The Creator (Wizard101) undoutabley should have Type 2. He existed before all of this and brought the dual concepts of Shadow and Chaos, Light and Order, Life and Death, and a force that has no opposites (No dual feature), yet is its own opposite, into existence, that is "beyond understanding", and is unbound by them.

 

[WHYNAUT]

The only dual system they're above there is time and space. Being "beyond" existence is very vague and can be interpreted in multiple ways. Also you haven't really addressed the people saying that bring outside of something =/= being qualitvely superior to it.

Not being bound by the regular orders of the universe is just type 4 acausality.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That... doesn't mean they're beyond existence. They just can see beyond time. I'm thinking some stuff is being taken kinda liberally here so I guess we'll wait for the input from the dude who said the verse is being handled improperly.

 

[The_Causality]

@Zenkai That doesn't mean they're beyond existence itself, the first problem is assuming they're beyond both time and space when only time is mentioned, secondly the word beyond is probably not interpreted as a transcendance since in the second part of the quote, it use the exemple of "someone step off the and look beyond" which isn't a exemple of transcendance but more a distance.

If being beyond Time and Space = Beyond existence = Type 2 Transduality, then I've missed something.

You need clear and Concrete statement of this kind of stuff.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I need to check on Evah's opinion.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

So, what exactly counts as being "beyond existence itself"? WoG has stated repeatedly that either one of them (Raven and Spider) could destroy and survive the destruction of "existence". Does that alone not prove that they are beyond it? What more do you need?

 

[RM97]

Surviving the destruction of existence can be done if said character has the Dura or defensive Hax like OP level Forcefields, High-Godly Regen,etc. It doesn't mean that the character is "Beyond Existence". Just pointing it out.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Surviving the destruction of existence can be done if said character has the Dura or defensive Hax like OP level Forcefields, High-Godly Regen,etc. It doesn't mean that the character is "Beyond Existence". Just pointing it out.

Then what counts? They're already the most powerful beings, capable of destroying and surviving the destruction of existence (as pointed out), and are each capable of altering existence in a manner that they see fit (including creating/destroying new universes and altering/stopping the flow of time). There's literally only one thing in the franchise that can put them down at their full strength, and it was something that was created by them with the sole purpose of being able to do that.

 

[RM97]

I'm honestly not an expert in Transduality or Wizard101 but given the circumstance, I think a statement of them being above duality would be fine.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

none of what you said implies transduality

that's AP

not transduality.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

none of what you said implies transduality
that's AP

not transduality.

If they are outside of, can freely manipulate (on a conceptual level, mind you), are not bound by the rules of, and can destroy and survive the destruction of existence, does that not make them "beyond" existence? That's literally what I was asking about, and even still nobody's given me an answer.

Raven and Spider have both created dual concepts (Fire and Ice, Life and Death, etc.), and these concepts are embodied by other beings. Beings they can kill and can't be killed by. Beings they can change to be however they want, or simply enforce their will upon.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

"Raven and Spider have both created dual concepts (Fire and Ice, Life and Death, etc.), and these concepts are embodied by other beings. Beings they can kill and can't be killed by. Beings they can change to be however they want, or simply enforce their will upon."

This.

They have literally created dual concepts themselves and exist transcended to them (They transcend their children), and even space and time.

Anyway, Instead of just saying "None of what you said implies transduality", can you tell me why it isn't? Because if you look at the statements, they do imply Transduality. Outside of Life and death, outside of space-time, existence they transcend their children and dual concepts they created such as life and death, Fire and Ice (Fire and Ice Titan), Storm and Myth (In the game they are opposites of each other) and balance which is all in one.

I suppose Type 1 For Raven Spider and Bartleby would be fine, but I am seeing no reason why The Creator wouldn't be Type 2 for existing before and transcending a force that has no opposites, yet is it's own opposite, outside of life and death, space and time, nothingness/existence, and the concepts that shape the Spiral's multiverse

 

[WHYNAUT]

I mostly disagree with type 2. Type 1 could be possible.

Anyway one of the reasons people are sceptical is because the actual scans shown only say that they can step off the weel of creation with time and space being mentioned as part of that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I can be above my cat all I like without being transdual towards it. This is the same thing, you're expanding the idea that since they are greater than reality they must ergo maintain transduality, which is a complete non sequitur. We don't give abilities for funsies.

Creating concepts similarly isn't inherently transduality. Just because you made an opposite to the other thing you made doesn't mean you exist as both. So I guess my explanation boils down to "if it doesn't have evidence that they have it, they don't have it".

 

[The_Causality]

@WHY to be honest, even type 1 seem difficult, since those scan don't mention a space-time transcendance but judging by the God Tier's profiles, its said that they transcend time-space so type 1 via space-time transcendance is possible (if this requirement is enough, i can see a great number of transcendent profile which need to be adjusted)

 

[Ben_CleverName]

I can be above my cat all I like without being transdual towards it. This is the same thing, you're expanding the idea that since they are greater than reality they must ergo maintain transduality, which is a complete non sequitur. We don't give abilities for funsies.
Creating concepts similarly isn't inherently transduality. Just because you made an opposite to the other thing you made doesn't mean you exist as both. So I guess my explanation boils down to "if it doesn't have evidence that they have it, they don't have it".

I think you're misunderstanding me. In regards to my existence post, I was simply challenging the idea that they aren't "beyond existence". I wasn't trying to imply transduality through that. My defense for transduality resided in my statement for them creating and being above dual concepts, to support the "Being qualitatively beyond and superior to" part.

The reason we believe that they are transdual is because of statements such as "Life and Death, Order and Chaos, Light and Shadow: outside our limited perceptions they are one."

 

[The_Causality]

The reason we believe that they are transdual is because of statements such as "Life and Death, Order and Chaos, Light and Shadow: outside our limited perceptions they are one."

This statement is pretty taked out of context and only describe the world

That why we need full context about this kind of stuff.