A different essay for Ascended Athena????? (God of War)

[KLOL506]

ND Type 2

ND Type 2 or 3 is fine but not TD afaik

There's a Nature Type and Aspect Type so specifying those two would be appreciated.

 

[Qawsedf234]

There's a Nature Type and Aspect Type so specifying those two would be appreciated.

Nature 1 enhanced Aspect 2.

 

[Deagonx]

Not to my understanding, since life and death are just states of existence. Being beyond that state of existence would not necessarily require a higher dimensional magnitude of power.

Right but being beyond that state of existence would just be nonduality. In order to "transcend" them in the manner specified for Transduality you would need Qualitative Superiority, which is defined as being on a higher level of infinity.

Nonduality: Characters with this type of nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems they're nondual regarding without transcending them on any level.

Transduality: Characters with this type of nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them.

Wait.... ND Type 2 is Transduality..... ND Type 1 is Nonduality.

If we're saying ND then we aren't referring to TD.

 

[Georredannea15]

Space-Time concepts expressed as distance and the progression of events. If you're qualitatively superior to those concepts you are by our rules at least a dimensional level higher because you exceed them by a uncountable infinite amount.

As I said, such concepts were revised and separated from spatial planes in the previous revision of the concept of dimension. The two are very different things in their context.

ou're saying she transcends all concepts in GoW by a QS amount and exist within a QS state of being to everyone else. Both claims are saying she's an uncountable infinite above the concept of space-time and the Primordials.

I think what you mean is that since it transcends "everything", it must necessarily transcend dimensionally and higher infinity, but it's not such a thing necessary.

Because again, you are confusing dimensional superiority and high -D with the nature of concepts and dualities that spread throughout reality, you are collecting different contexts within the same logic, also a character with TD must already be beyond the plane of reality in a level, because the concepts and dualities here are It already needs to spread throughout all of reality and control all of reality. If you are superior to them, it means that you are superior to the plane on which they spread and control.

Because you literally mentioned them

By your arguments you're saying Athena is QS to beings who are ND to Space-Time. It's a direct AP upgrade along with an upgrade to TD.

Space-time, that is, not the spatial and temporal dimension you know, but the concept of space-time, again, such concepts have been separated from spatial dimensions, so going "beyond all dimensional concepts" or similar without the context of spatiality or a cosmology no longer gives you anything

TD means you have QS over all concepts of that level. You wouldn't be assumed to have immunity to conceptual manipulation by dimensionally superior characters.

Yes, that's what I mean, but you're ignoring it, saying that Athena "needs high-D to have TD" and then saying that is really... contradictory.

And I only recommend TD without any higher -D. And that's what normal

Your example is incorrect, because it's based on the 6D being already being 6D. In this case it's a being with no set dimensionality being QS to the concepts of space-time in the regular cosmology.

There may be a 6-D being and power beyond 5-D dualities, but this being cannot be a Transdual being in the first place.
You seem to have misunderstood this example.

 

[Dereck03]

If we're saying ND then we aren't referring to TD.

The page itself refers ND 2 as TD. ND Type 1 is ND.

 

[KLOL506]

If we're saying ND then we aren't referring to TD.

This is confusing as **** in all honesty so I'd suggest hashing out a CRT to fix this.

 

[Deagonx]

ND Type 1 is ND

That's redundant IMO.

saying that Athena "needs high-D to have TD"

And I only recommend TD without any higher -D. And that's what normal

Not Higher -D. She needs qualitative superiority, which is being on a higher level of infinity. You can't have TD without it.

This is confusing as **** in all honesty so I'd suggest hashing out a CRT to fix this.

Sure I'll make one

 

[Georredannea15]

Right but being beyond that state of existence would just be nonduality. In order to "transcend" them in the manner specified for Transduality you would need Qualitative Superiority, which is defined as being on a higher level of infinity.

Nonduality: Characters with this type of nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems they're nondual regarding without transcending them on any level.

Transduality: Characters with this type of nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them.

This is what I was talking about when I said you were confusing QS.

 

[Dereck03]

It seems that a change has to be made in these standards again, because QS in TD is not a thing, since a transcendence or similar statements alone would be enough to prove a complete superiority over dualities, QS is only there to make bulk.

 

[Deagonx]

because QS in TD is not a thing, since a transcendence or similar statements alone would be enough to prove a complete superiority over dualities, QS is only there to make bulk.

I don't feel very strongly about it, as long as we agree that the standards as they are written demand QS.

 

[Georredannea15]

Not Higher -D. She needs qualitative superiority, which is being on a higher level of infinity. You can't have TD without it.

You are still contradicting yourself, first you saying that "higher -D is not needed" but after you said "she should be at higher level infinity for this." But higher level of infinity means higher-D.

 

[Georredannea15]

It seems that a change has to be made in these standards again, because QS in TD is not a thing, since a transcendence or similar statements alone would be enough to prove a complete superiority over dualities, QS is only there to make bulk.

I swear that's all I'm trying to say.

 

[Qawsedf234]

transcend" them in the manner specified for Transduality you would need Qualitative Superiority, which is defined as being on a higher level of infinity.

Yes, but life-death's infinity has no baring on your power or the general power of your cosmology. Which is why having just life-death TD wouldn't grant a Tiering upgrade.

As I said, such concepts were revised and separated from spatial planes in the previous revision of the concept of dimension. The two are very different things in their context.

I gave you the FAQ post. Being uncountable infinitely above Space-Time is an AP upgrade.

because QS in TD is not a thing, since a transcendence or similar statements alone

It is. The power literally mentions QS in its justification.

Transduality: Characters with this type of nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them. Besides immunizing them against the dualities in question, this power also immunizes them against attempts to apply those dualities to them, as they would transcend the scope of the haxes that could do so.

Because again, you are confusing dimensional

I'm not confusing stuff here, the confusion is on your end. Transcending the concepts of space and time via QS is an AP upgrade.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes, but life-death's infinity has no baring on your power or the general power of your cosmology. Which is why having just life-death TD wouldn't grant a Tiering upgrade.

Yeah but the only manner in which you could have QS to those concepts is if you were above the layer of the cosmology that those concepts existed in, which would mandate that your AP correlate to having QS over that layer of existence.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah but the only manner in which you could have QS to those concepts is if you were above the layer of the cosmology that those concepts existed in, which would mandate that your AP correlate to having QS over that layer of existence.

It wouldn't mandate it, it just means you're conceptual superior to that duality. Which I don't believe translates to an AP upgrade in some cases.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wait.... ND Type 2 is Transduality..... ND Type 1 is Nonduality.

No, ND Nature 2 is TD. ND Type 2 is just general Nonduality.

 

[Deagonx]

It wouldn't mandate it, it just means you're conceptual superior to that duality. Which I don't believe translates to an AP upgrade in some cases.

I have to think it would, as any being that is subject to that duality would be one level of QS below you, which means your AP pretty much has to be one above them. That's why the phrase "QS" in the standard links to the tiering system FAQ, I don't think the two can be separated, but we could clarify with Ultima or someone else.

 

[Dereck03]

I don't feel very strongly about it, as long as we agree that the standards as they are written demand QS.

I don't feel convinced of this either, because as I said QS is just something that was imposed just because, the very description of transduality makes it clear what I am saying.

It is. The power literally mentions QS in its justification.

Let me correct you, it wasn't a thing, the new standards simply added that, what it does is to limit something that was already limited to a few verses, making statements like transcendence and beyond or lacking/outside + overall superiority useless by rejecting them for the excuse of not QS, when in fact those statements are already sufficient.

And even more so when the QS mentioned is completely related to the Tiering System.

 

[KLOL506]

No, ND Nature 2 is TD. ND Type 2 is just general Nonduality.

There's two types tho. Nature Type and Aspect Type.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't feel convinced of this either, because as I said QS is just something that was imposed just because, the very description of transduality makes it clear what I am saying.

But QS was imposed. We can't get around that without revising it.

We would have to reword it to ensure we can accommodate non-QS forms of superiority in order to give that.

 

[Dereck03]

No, ND Nature 2 is TD. ND Type 2 is just general Nonduality.

That is not a thing, we have Nonduality nature and Nonduality Aspect, nothing else. Nonduality Nature X, Aspect X, there is nothing like Nonduality Type X anymore.

 

[Georredannea15]

I gave you the FAQ post. Being uncountable infinitely above Space-Time is an AP upgrade.

What you still don't understand is that the inherent qualitative superiority of concepts is not some uncountable infinite difference, infinitely power difference, higher level of infinity or AP difference.

How can you say that for space-time concepts. When even the phrase "beyond the all concepts of dimensions" really doesn't give you anything spatially unless it's spatial in context.

I'm not confusing stuff here, the confusion is on your end. Transcending the concepts of space and time via QS is an AP upgrade.

We come to the same point again

 

[Dereck03]

But QS was imposed. We can't get around that without revising it.

We would have to reword it to ensure we can accommodate non-QS forms of superiority in order to give that.

That's what I said, revise the standards again, because we can't repress cases that have clear staments like the ones I mentioned previously because they don't have something like QS in their verse while 95% of the description qualifies it.

 

[Deagonx]

What you still don't understand is that the inherent qualitative superiority of concepts is not some uncountable infinite difference, infinitely power difference, higher level of infinity or AP difference.

Yes it is.

Let me be clear: Qualtiative superiority only has one definition, and it's an uncountable infinite difference. The term was made up by this website for that purpose, you are assigning it a new meaning by yourself, which isn't acceptable. If you want a non-uncountably infinite difference to qualify for TD you need to pursue a revision to the standards. You are flatly wrong on the standards.

 

[Qawsedf234]

beyond or lacking/outside + overall superiority useless by rejecting them for the excuse of not QS, when in fact those statements are already sufficient.

They aren't, which is why QS was added in the first place. You have to prove that the character or place is an uncountably infinity above that duality to get TD. Transcendence used in the definition is about how your beyond the scope of other abilities rather than transcende alone being a valid reason.

What you still don't understand is that the inherent qualitative superiority of concepts is not some uncountable infinite difference,

Yes it is. That's the site definition for QS. There are no others.

That's what I said, revise the standards again,

Then do so. But as of this post the standards explicitly require QS to qualify for TD/Nature 2 which are not met here.

 

[Georredannea15]

Yes it is.

Let me be clear: Qualtiative superiority only has one definition, and it's an uncountable infinite difference. The term was made up by this website for that purpose, you are assigning it a new meaning by yourself, which isn't acceptable. If you want a non-uncountably infinite difference to qualify for TD you need to pursue a revision to the standards. You are flatly wrong on the standards.

No it's not, it means an uncountable infinite mathematical amount +1-D and we use it for tier, we don't use it in the nature of concepts or dualities.

QS is simply being superior to any quantity you include or transcended

So putting QS in the same category for all genres and misunderstanding it is not my problem, it's your problem.

 

[Georredannea15]

They aren't, which is why QS was added in the first place. You have to prove that the character or place is an uncountably infinity above that duality to get TD. Transcendence used in the definition is about how your beyond the scope of other abilities rather than transcende alone being a valid reason.

There was also a statement of qualitative superiority before the separation into ND and TD, nothing has changed in this regard.

Yes it is. That's the site definition for QS. There are no others.

No, I'm actually very, very surprised that you've ever thought of QS as just "uncountable infinity" and "infinitely greater".

Qualitative superiority is simply being superior to all the quantities you encompass and transcended.

Do I really need to call DT for a simple explanation of TD( QS in TD) and QS?

 

[Dereck03]

Let me be clear: Qualtiative superiority only has one definition, and it's an uncountable infinite difference.

And here I emphasize that this term is wrong in TD, since there is no possible explanation or way to state that one character is Higher Infinity superior to another without making it sound like powerscaling behavior, this can be passed in terms of AP where it is more elaborate and can be compared but in terms of existence it is something that does not go hand in hand.

They aren't, which is why QS was added in the first place. You have to prove that the character or place is an uncountably infinity above that duality to get TD. Transcendence used in the definition is about how your beyond the scope of other abilities rather than transcende alone being a valid reason.

Yes they are, because uncountably infinity over a duality is kind of ridiculous to begin with, if so only tiers 1-A could have Nature 2. If I go to all the characters that have ND Nature 2 has it by transcendence/beyond + elaboration of superiority over all the dualities in their verse.

You cannot dismise out clear statements of transcendence + clear context about the dualities shown using "QS" was not shown, if so the verse would already be extrapolated to higher levels if that existed. Literally the new ND Nature 2 only exists for 1-A onwards.

Then do so. But as of this post the standards explicitly require QS to qualify for TD/Nature 2.

Yeah, i'm not going to do myself but there's many who are planning that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

No it's not, it means an uncountable infinite mathematical amount +1-D and we use it for tier, we don't use it in the nature of concepts or dualities.

The FAQ also address it

Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.
Of course, the same levels of superiority can also be reached via sufficiently explicit quantitative statements, such as when cardinalities above countably infinite get involved in a manner that implies a corresponding difference in power/size

It's about being superior by a beyond infinite degree.

No, I'm actually very, very surprised that you've ever thought of QS as just "uncountable infinity" and "infinitely greater".

It's literally in the FAQ

In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

It's being beyond a countable infinity. It's an equalivent of an Aleph-1 to an Aleph-0 infinity wise.

Yes they are, because uncountably infinity over a duality is kind of ridiculous to begin with, if so only tiers 1-A could have Nature 2.

You can be an uncountable infinite above something without being 1-A. An uncountable infinite number of universes is only Low 1-C as an example.

You cannot dismise out clear statements of transcendence + clear context about the dualities shown using "QS" was not shown, if so the verse would already be extrapolated to higher levels if that existed. Literally the new ND Nature 2 only exists for 1-A onwards.

It doesn't. QS doesn't give you 1-A unless it's over some equalivent to a Low 1-A construct or an Aleph-1 amount of something.

 

[Georredannea15]

The FAQ also address it

It's about being superior by beyond infinite degree.

It's literally in the FAQ

It's being beyond a countable infinity. It's an equalivent of an Aleph-1 to an Aleph-0 infinity wise.

Qawsedf, you do realize that these terms are all used for Tier, dimensional difference, size difference or power difference, right?

Because every QS description you quote specifically emphasizes for Tier

Of course, the same levels of superiority can also be reached via sufficiently explicit quantitative statements, such as when cardinalities above countably infinite get involved in a manner that implies a corresponding difference in power/size

For tier.

"more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

It's also for tier. There is no power, AP or "size" nonsense for concepts, dualities and TD.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Qawsedf, you do realize that these terms are all used for Tier, dimensional difference, size difference or power difference, right?

I quoted a section that was about relations from one object to another as well. QS requires the object to be beyond infinitely higher from whatever you're comparing it to.

K.E.V.I.N. is QS 1-C through R>F, Immortals from D&D are QS through higher geometric levels and stuff like Lovecraft is QS through conceptual superiority. They're referring to the same idea with different methods of getting there.

 

[Deagonx]

Qawsedf, you do realize that these terms are all used for Tier, dimensional difference, size difference or power difference, right?

Because every QS description you quote specifically emphasizes for Tier


For tier.

It's also for tier. There is no power, AP or "size" nonsense for concepts, dualities and TD.

Okay, then if you want to revise the TD standards to remove QS as a requirement, feel free to pursue that. But that is what QS means, that's the only thing it means, and it is explicitly a requirement for TD.

 

[KLOL506]

That's what I said, revise the standards again, because we can't repress cases that have clear staments like the ones I mentioned previously because they don't have something like QS in their verse while 95% of the description qualifies it.

At this point you might as well wait for Ultima to revise Nonduality/Transduality completely.

 

[Dereck03]

At this point you might as well wait for Ultima to revise Nonduality/Transduality completely.

If ultima will revise them then that's fine by me, since the current standards are a stonewall for a requirement that in itself should not have to be related to TD.

 

[Qawsedf234]

At this point you might as well wait for Ultima to revise Nonduality/Transduality completely.

Not to be a Debbie downer, but such a change would be pretty far down the line. It's not a "wait a couple weeks" thing.

 

[Georredannea15]

I'm not talking about the QS proposition, man...

The phrase "uncountable infinitely superior to dualities" that you mentioned for QS is not necessarily related to the nature of concepts and dualities, and it is impossible to prove it for their nature.

That's why we're talking in general terms, not about QS for spesific type and tier.

Uncountable infinite means transcending all quantities in the wiki, but only for tier and AP, so only for pyhsical scale. Confusing this with the nature of concepts and dualities is the biggest mistake you're making here.

Also, the thread you opened does not have much effect here because non-dual beings are not something that is prioritized in this case.

If you want to make the name easier, I don't know about that.
And the reason why it is distinguished as non-duality nature type 1 and type 2 is to distinguish being transcends and being lacking.

Okay, then if you want to revise the TD standards to remove QS as a requirement, feel free to pursue that. But that is what QS means, that's the only thing it means, and it is explicitly a requirement for TD.

 

[KLOL506]

Not to be a Debbie downer, but such a change would be pretty far down the line. It's not a "wait a couple weeks" thing.

I know.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not talking about the QS proposition, man...

You're proposing the following

So, she should has Non-duality type 2 with aspect type 2 in she's ascended key.

To qualify for Nature 2, she must show QS. She doesn't and if she did this would also be an AP upgrade, even if you didn't intend it to be.

 

[Georredannea15]

To qualify for Nature 2, she must show QS. She doesn't and if she did this would also be an AP upgrade, even if you didn't intend it to be.

I don't know how many times I will mention that qualitative superiority is still not just AP and power difference, uncountable infinity.

Then bomb all the TDs on the wiki because no one has "uncountable infinite differences" against concepts and dualities, and not only is it impossible to prove this for TD, such a thing even goes against the nature of concepts and dualities.


If you really wanted to reject it, you could just say "I disagree" without beating around the bush and making up things like "uncountable infinity", really then there wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Qawsedf234]

making up things like "uncountable infinity",

I'm not making it up. That's literally the definition we use. Well, an uncountable infinite set at least.

qualitative superiority is still not just AP and power difference, uncountable infinity.

It's not, but in this case it would be. Since Athena would be QS to time and space, along with various other characters.