• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Transduality Type 3 For Arceus(Original Spirit)

Dread said:
In one of your scans there is only one explict mention of one duality existence.... have luck with this thread but it is hard to be implemented.
Click to expand...
Again. It was used as an example to prove that everything has duality
Dread said:
Also don't use philosophies as an evidence. If the verse itself goes deep into it and explain those stuff, then it's fine to use them as supporting scan but only mentioning them won't help much
Click to expand...
I can. If it's the same as is being described. We don't need explicit mention of Concept, for something yo be conceptual
 
Sniper670 said:
Again. It was used as an example to prove that everything has duality
Click to expand...
Prove it
Sniper670 said:
I can. If it's the same as is being described. We don't need explicit mention of Concept, for something yo be conceptual
Click to expand...
No mate you can't. DT explicitly said you can't. No discussion for this. If you wanna discuss against a rule, go ahead and create CRT to change the rule
 
Dread said:
Prove it
Click to expand...
It's in the translations mate. Read it.
Dread said:
No mate you can't. DT explicitly said you can't. No discussion for this. If you wanna discuss against a rule, go ahead and create CRT to change the rule
Click to expand...
Primordial Chaos is wuji. Did I, or did I not show that.

With the games explicitly mentioning that everything was ONE, blended together and humans and Pokémon were the same.

If I bring out the meaning of Wuji, and the description in the games follows that, that's that.
 
Sniper670 said:
It's in the translations mate. Read it.

Primordial Chaos is wuji. Did I, or did I not show that.

With the games explicitly mentioning that everything was ONE, blended together and humans and Pokémon were the same.

If I bring out the meaning of Wuji, and the description in the games follows that, that's that.
Click to expand...
Even if it is. As DT said, mentioning a philosophy won't count. Unless a verse explicitly explained it enough.
 
Dread said:
Without no assumption as well ^^
Click to expand...
There's no assumptions here.

He mentioned that everything is governed by a certain duality

How does that mean just one duality how does that even make sense to yourself..

Plus, the translations proves you wrong. Arceus used an example to prove that everything is governed by a Duality and everything has two sides
 
Dread said:
Even if it is. As DT said, mentioning a philosophy won't count. Unless a verse explicitly explained it enough.
Click to expand...
It did. NonDuality before the multiverse

Primordial Chaos = Wuji.

And the verse explains it well, at the heart of chaos, everything was one, inside the Spirit, everything was one and the same. Humans and Pokémon everything was the same existence. NonDuality. Primordial Chaos
Wuji (無極) is Nothingness derived from Daoism. It particularly means no extremity and no polarities. It refers to the beginning stage of everything. In other words, everything starts from Wuji, Nothingness
Click to expand...
 
Sniper670 said:
There's no assumptions here.

He mentioned that everything is governed by a certain duality

How does that mean just one duality how does that even make sense to yourself..

Plus, the translations proves you wrong. Arceus used an example to prove that everything is governed by a Duality and everything has two sides
Click to expand...
Still type 1. This is not even close to at least type 5 truth state. At max 3 or 4.
 
Dread said:
Still type 1. This is not even close to at least type 5 truth state. At max 3 or 4.
Click to expand...
1. Explain why it's type 1
2. Primordial Chaos is nonduality. 1 and 0 don't exist here
3. This is contained inside the Spirit

Type 3. Oblivion was also upgraded on the basis of Wuji but somehow Arceus getting type 3 from Primordial Chaos(which is another word for Wuji and literally explained as such) is wrong?
 
Sniper670 said:
1. Explain why it's type 1
2. Primordial Chaos is nonduality. 1 and 0 don't exist here
3. This is contained inside the Spirit

Type 3. Oblivion was also upgraded on the basis of Wuji but somehow Arceus getting type 3 from Primordial Chaos(which is another word for Wuji and literally explained as such) is wrong?
Click to expand...
Oblivion has explicit proof of it mentioning the real Wuji and it clarifies that if not proven it could mean anything.
The xians origins Is unclear, it is said that Yuanshi Tianzun originated from the primordial void, referring to Ginnungagap.
Whether they did or not, that doesn't really matter, what does matter is that It is actually believed by the xians that the primordial void is the “wuji” (Thor & Hercules: Encyclopaedia Mythologica #1; The Xian's entry) Which could mean anything, but, in that exact image it is also believed yin and yang arose from the void, meaning it is supposed to be the real wuji
Click to expand...
 
sen_ said:
Oblivion has explicit proof of it mentioning the real Wuji and it clarifies that if not proven it could mean anything.
Click to expand...
Here wuji is called primordial Chaos.

Here, Wuji is called the Primordial Chaos

Here, Wuji is called the Chaos

It's also explained the exact same in Pokémon
 
sen_ said:
the existence of a primordial chaos does not mean anything unless chinese cosmology is mentioned. The fact it has a similar explanation does not necessarily mean it applies
Click to expand...
Are you listening to yourself right now?

Okay let's look at what wuji/Primordial Chaos is
In Chinese cosmology there was originally hun-tun, an undifferentiated luminous cloud, a void with no boundary, emptiness, a potential state. The hun-tun is sometimes considered a state of chaos in that is undivided, whole, a state where everything is mixed together. This potential, undifferentiated primordial state is also called Wu Ji. Wu Ji means literally “no limit” or “no polarity.” It is the “One,” the place we are trying to get close to in meditation.
Click to expand...
I didn't miss anything did I?
 
sen_ said:
that simply proves they are similar in nature due to being a primordial chaos, doesn't mean it is Wuji
Click to expand...
No, they're not similar in nature, the way it was described in Pokémon is the exact same

I proved they're the exact same. At least in the context of Pokémon.

Yes, we don't assume any philosophy UNLESS it's explained by the verse themselves. Which it has
 
Sniper670 said:
That's what it means, everything has its own duality.

Don't ignore the other translations which supports what i just said
Click to expand...
I don't even get how you arrived at that. It doesn't say everything has its own daylight, it says everything is governed by one duality.

The other translations don't support anything, Milly's translation basically throws the duality thing out the window
 
@Sniper670

Just because it is described the same way doesn't mean we equate it to wuji.
If you want this to apply, Pokemon would have to use the same word "wuji" or expand on chinese cosmology.

Everything is governed by a certain duality
Click to expand...
this means everything is governed by 1 duality not everything has its own duality that governs it. That's your head canon. Especially when the only duality mentioned is existence and nonexistence.

Duality= (0,1)
Non duality= both (0 and 1) or neither (0 nor 1).
The multiverse (existence) is 1 while the distortion (nonexistence) world 0.
The Pokemon reality is then a duality (0,1).
Primordial chaos (undifferentiated nothing) is neither (0 nor 1) like you said.
The original spirit encompasses and is beyond everything. It is still beyond only 3 truth states. It being the 4th truth state (both (0 and 1)) while being beyond the other 3 doesn't give it type 3.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
I don't even get how you arrived at that. It doesn't say everything has its own daylight, it says everything is governed by one duality.
Click to expand...
No?
He says everything is governed by a certain duality and how does that make sense to yourself that it means only one. Like, in what way did you understand that it means one. How is everything being governed by ONE duality. Does that even make sense to you?
Tatsumi504 said:
The other translations don't support anything, Milly's translation basically throws the duality thing out the window
Click to expand...
It doesnt throw any duality thing out the window. The other translations support what I said.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
@Sniper670

Just because it is described the same way doesn't mean we equate it to wuji.
If you want this to apply, Pokemon would have to use the same word "wuji" or expand on chinese cosmology.


this means everything is governed by 1 duality not everything has its own duality that governs it. That's your head canon. Especially when the only duality mentioned is existence and nonexistence.

Duality= (0,1)
Non duality= both (0 and 1) or neither (0 nor 1).
The multiverse (existence) is 1 while the distortion (nonexistence) world 0.
The Pokemon reality is then a duality (0,1).
Primordial chaos (undifferentiated nothing) is neither (0 nor 1) like you said.
The original spirit encompasses and is beyond everything. It is still beyond only 3 truth states. It being the 4th truth state (both (0 and 1)) while being beyond the other 3 doesn't give it type 3.
Click to expand...
The multiverse is being governed by duality. 1 and 0
The Primordial Chaos is neither 1 nor 0

Spirit contains within himself primordial Chaos.
for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nor false
Click to expand...
Yes. The Spirit does not fit into any of the type. Thats type 3.
 
And the other translations say the same thing. Everything has two sides, everything has two aspects

And he made an example to prove that point
 
I'll repeat, Inside the Spirit is Primordial Chaos where everything is undifferentiated and is neither 1 nor 0. So effectively NonDual

So The Spirit contains in itself NonDuality hence, any duality that comes out of it is of no relevance to it. He's literally R>F Nonduality.
That is to say, for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nor false.
Click to expand...
Original Spirit(Literally Brahman in anything but name) precedes NonDuality and contains it within himself
 
Sniper670 said:
The multiverse is being governed by duality. 1 and 0
The Primordial Chaos is neither 1 nor 0

Spirit contains within himself primordial Chaos.

Yes. The Spirit does not fit into any of the type. Thats type 3.
Click to expand...
Where is the "both (0 and 1)"? You only have "neither (0 nor 1)".
The spirit is only encompassing 3 logic states;
  • A is false
  • A is true
  • A is neither true nor false.
It needs to also encompass "A is both (0 and 1). Just cause you have the "neither" doesn't mean you can skip the "both".
Also the spirit being the "both (0 and 1)" doesn't cut it either as it would be defined in a state within those 4 logic states
 
Anyway. I had a translator from r/translator translate it. Here's what he said
So first things first, someone tried to explain the spelling, but the formatting makes it look like part of the sentence, which is why it's nonsense.

表裏一体＝ひょうりいったい

So the actual sentence is すべては表裏一体なのです, or 'everything has a front and a back'

I'm using 'front and back' as a substitute for 表裏, since it doesn't translate perfectly, but the idea being conveyed by 表裏一体 is that everything has a front/face which is what's shown to other people (the surface level), and a back/rear/tail that is the hidden reality of the thing (that which is under the surface), and these two factors are both necessary and cannot be separated from one another. They are both elements of the whole, and without one, you do not have the whole
Click to expand...
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Where is the "both (0 and 1)"? You only have "neither (0 nor 1)".
The spirit is only encompassing 3 logic states;
  • A is false
  • A is true
  • A is neither true nor false.
It needs to also encompass "A is both (0 and 1). Just cause you have the "neither" doesn't mean you can skip the "both".
Also the spirit being the "both (0 and 1)" doesn't cut it either as it would be defined in a state within those 4 logic states
Click to expand...
You can. As long as you don't fit into both 1 and 0 and neither 1 nor 0, it's type 3. Type 2 is either being both 1 and 0, or neither 1 nor 0.

The Spirit contained within itself Chaos. The Spirit itself is not affected by the things inside of it. The only thing that wad differentiated was Chaos. Which is why Arceus refers to the Creation trio as "Primordial Chaos".
 
Sniper670 said:
You can. As long as you don't fit into both 1 and 0 and neither 1 nor 0, it's type 3. Type 2 is either being both 1 and 0, or neither 1 nor 0.

The Spirit contained within itself Chaos. The Spirit itself is not affected by the things inside of it. The only thing that wad differentiated was Chaos. Which is why Arceus refers to the Creation trio as "Primordial Chaos".
Click to expand...
That chaos is "neither (0 nor 1)" as you put it. It needs to also be beyond "both (0 and 1)" which I don't see anywhere. Once again, just because you have the "neither" doesn't mean you bypass the need to prove there is the "both" as well.
 
I can see @Sniper670 point. I don't know if we can say that just because you are neither 1, neither 0 and neither nor 0 nor 1 can be classified as just type 2 which is denoted by just being either 1 and 0 or neither 1 nor 0 but then again those are weird cases that I am surprised weren't covered in the transduality revision thread. Type 2 and 3 especially needing those 2 and 4 truth states is also weird. We need DT here.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
That chaos is "neither (0 nor 1)" as you put it. It needs to also be beyond "both (0 and 1)" which I don't see anywhere. Once again, just because you have the "neither" doesn't mean you bypass the need to prove there is the "both" as well.
Click to expand...
Do you know the difference between Oblivion and the Spirit?

Oblivion is the Primordial Void itself, The Spirit contains this Primordial Void inside himself. And I'll point this out
And so they must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier.
Click to expand...
The Spirit is the 5th truth state itself. If you're absent from all 4 combinations, you're the 5th truth state
 
Sniper670 said:
No?
He says everything is governed by a certain duality and how does that make sense to yourself that it means only one. Like, in what way did you understand that it means one. How is everything being governed by ONE duality. Does that even make sense to you?

It doesnt throw any duality thing out the window. The other translations support what I said.
Click to expand...
Certain duality = 1 duality. It never stated all duality. Stop using headcanon
 
Dread said:
Certain duality = 1 duality. It never stated all duality. Stop using headcanon
Click to expand...
Ohh is that so. Anyway. I had a translator from r/translator translate it. Here's what he said
So first things first, someone tried to explain the spelling, but the formatting makes it look like part of the sentence, which is why it's nonsense.

表裏一体＝ひょうりいったい

So the actual sentence is すべては表裏一体なのです, or 'everything has a front and a back'

I'm using 'front and back' as a substitute for 表裏, since it doesn't translate perfectly, but the idea being conveyed by 表裏一体 is that everything has a front/face which is what's shown to other people (the surface level), and a back/rear/tail that is the hidden reality of the thing (that which is under the surface), and these two factors are both necessary and cannot be separated from one another. They are both elements of the whole, and without one, you do not have the whole
Click to expand...
 
Sniper670 said:
Do you know the difference between Oblivion and the Spirit?

Oblivion is the Primordial Void itself, The Spirit contains this Primordial Void inside himself. And I'll point this out
Click to expand...
the Primordial Voids you are talking about are different, the former has proof of being Wuji and the latter does not
 
sen_ said:
the Primordial Voids you are talking about are different, the former has proof of being Wuji and the latter does not
Click to expand...
Keep ignoring this
In Chinese cosmology there was originally hun-tun, an undifferentiated luminous cloud, a void with no boundary, emptiness, a potential state. The hun-tun is sometimes considered a state of chaos in that is undivided, whole, a state where everything is mixed together. This potential, undifferentiated primordial state is also called Wu Ji. Wu Ji means literally “no limit” or “no polarity.” It is the “One,”
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Everything12
  • Locked
Arceus Nonduality/Transduality Type 2?
Replies
38
Views
4K
Everything12
Everything12
BestMGQScalerEver
Expanding Arceus Transduality Justification
Replies
14
Views
2K
ProfectusInfinity
ProfectusInfinity
StrymULTRA
Arceus and the Jewel of Fake Interviews
Replies
30
Views
3K
Imaginym
Imaginym
Everything12
  • Locked
Pokemon Tier 1 Upgrade? (Distortion World range and Arceus)
2
Replies
56
Views
5K
Everything12
Everything12
Everything12
  • Locked
Arceus Avatar Upgrade (Technically? More Clarification)
Replies
36
Views
3K
Everything12
Everything12
Back
Top