Touhou Revisions, Again (Sorry)

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Can someone sum up what else has been agreed and disagreed with? I will try to respond to everything once I'm more fully awake.

Honestly, it would probably be best if you took your time and read everything, because it is a lot. Though mainly Doge's points are worth addressing. Malomtek is arguing against things already accepted, from what I saw, so meh.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Malomtek is arguing against things already accepted, from what I saw, so meh.

To be fair to him, this ship feat is a new supporting speed feat to get a more solid infinite rating rather than just possibly.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Honestly, it would probably be best if you took your time and read everything, because it is a lot. Though mainly Doge's points are worth addressing. Malomtek is arguing against things already accepted, from what I saw, so meh.

Yeah I'm just not gonna engage with Malomtek.

I'll go through and address what's been brought up by other people, might take a while though. Not gonna address Yukari's infinite speed spell card since the footage Doge provided made it very obvious that it was a case of aim dodging.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

-Cirno's "Minus K" spell card is described as having an "impossible to measure temperature" by Marisa, so that's consistent with the name.
-Youmu's sound manipulation isn't based on the spell card name, but rather the fact that Aya states she cut out all sound around her (something Aya would only notice if it were an external effect).

These two are also fine then.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

To be fair to him, this ship feat is a new supporting speed feat to get a more solid infinite rating rather than just possibly.

Oh, that yeah. But he also wants to get rid of the possibly in its entirety. And also; you are debating him on the ship thing already xP

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah I don't really have any major objections against what's been brought up by other members. I was under the impression that existing in a location with different laws of gravity unaffected would grant some kind of resistance a la DMC demon resistances. If that's not the case, then I'm fine with leaving it out.

Don't have much else to add, like I said I'm not interested in engaging with the infinite speed debate given the points against it boil down to argument from belief and incredulity. The corridor and Palanquin Ship feats are fine as they are, so until a staff member takes issue with them, I won't bother arguing.

 

[Malomtek]

Things that exceed the speed of light eventually get pulled back into the border zone that’s the point, on the contrary none of what you’re saying really disproves the application of what we’re saying.

What? That doesn't even make any sense, and that's still not how event horizons work.

A particle of light temporarily escaping an event horizon only to be pulled back in does not mean the particle of light somehow exceeded the speed of light itself, in fact it proves the exact opposite.

Then you did not read the source(s) because this is a pretty blatant representation, because they CAN move just not too far or forward because
•they’re fast enough to escape the centre of the pull, but
•due to the gameplay and description of the spellcard cannot escape the entire event horizon.

I don’t know why we’re making this difficult really, Marisa’s spellcard that can pull planets isn’t exactly spatial manipulation, it’s just a basic use of gravity. It isn’t really hard to just apply a singular hax mal.

No, you're just going against basic scientific facts of how event horizons work, and being deliberately obtuse while doing so. This complete disingenuity from you needs to stop.

Event horizons pull someone in towards the center constantly. They don't stop at some "border zone".

I'm not opposed to Marisa getting "gravity manipulation" or whatever, I'm opposed to Marisa getting "gravity manipulation" because of a "event horizon" spellcard that simply doesn't work the way event horizons are actually supposed to.

You realize that Crossing infinity can still be achieved over different timeframes, right? It doesn't have to specifically happen nearly instantaneously. Your argument is in itself a fallacy that insists an infinite speed feat has to look and act a certain way.

What is this "fallacy" I'm "insisting" on?

Infinite speed is infinite speed, no matter what timeframe a supposedly infinite distance is crossed in, and the outside environment should not look the same as if an ordinary jet is flying over it regardless.

What the game actually shows don't support "infinite speed", character dialogue be damned.

This is still an argument from incredulity and I will be ignoring it moving forward as you're being circular with your arguments. The narrative says otherwise, which brings me to:

No, I'm going by the visuals, not personal incredulity, and the visual progression of the stage does not suggest "infinite speed", "muh narrative" or otherwise.

You're comparing two completely different situations to on another. Yet another fallacy.

This is Makai, Hokkai, and the ship's first appearance in the series (and Makai's in the new canon). We are told it is infinitely large, and that Hokkai is at the edge, all in the same lines of dialogue. The ship crosses that distance and is on autopilot.

You can't ignore the plot of the entire game being that the ship is heading to Hokkai, at the edge of the infinite Makai, to unseal Byakuren. The narrative and the information given ties directly into the story of UFO. Like, are you kidding me right now???

Can you explain how I'm comparing "two completely different situations" here? Because otherwise, all you're doing is committing the "fallacy fallacy" by simply randomly accusing me of fallacies without explaining what they are or how I did them.

The "situations" seem pretty similar to me, especially since they all have their roots in a self-serving interpretation of a perceived "narrative".

The area of Makai or Hokkai being "infinite" or not isn't somehow essential to the game's plot. What is essential is that they head to Hokkai at the "edge" of Makai, not that either Hokkai or Makai are infinite in size. Makai could be the size of a large city and the game's plot would amount to exactly the same.

And I just want to repeat this:

There's also the fact that neither of them seem to be in Makai in general yet, let alone one of its corners. Makai/Hokkai consistently looks completely differently from the realm with the road in it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also, I would appreciate it if we stopped arguing with Malomtek on infinite speed. We're not gonna get anywhere with someone who argues from incredulity. We have more important things to focus on if everyone else here agrees with the Palanquin Ship scaling being valid.

*cough *

Anyways, we seem to have a majority agreement on most things. I think the only thing I disagree with most people here on is spell card names. Even if not all of them are valid, I think that cards under a certain 'genre' (like cards with 'light sign' or 'dream sign' in the name) are fine enough to use, especially since an ability being vague or hard to quantify doesn't necessarily mean that ability doesn't exist.

I don't have anything to say in defense of gravity manip resistance or Yukari's spell card scaling. Those have been debunked pretty concretely I feel :v

 

[Guardian_Doge]

No, you're just going against basic scientific facts of how event horizons work, and being deliberately obtuse while doing so. This complete disingenuity from you needs to stop.

There is nothing disingenuous about what I’m arguing…I’m not avoiding any scientific facts.

The purpose of the spellcard is to mimic the effects an event horizon has, which is:
For the black hole to have enough gravitational force to pull it into the boundary called the event horizon, and thus nothing can escape it
..unless and now we given two options.

A. We base the representation off my interpretation and conclude with how the spell limits movement similarly to an event horizon and because the characters can go faster than light they’re neither escaping or being sucked in due to the nature of it, along with how Marisa can separate two planets with her asteroid belt (which is likely also gravity manipulation) as a note of consistency.

B. We go with yours and say it isn’t an event horizon but still give it a form of spatial manipulation because it’s vague.

Look I really don’t care, but please stop acting like you‘re a white dove in the presence of debates and for the love of god never accuse me of being “completely disingenuous” because that’s just Freudian slip and I’m quite tired, since I’m dealing with my own life.

Prom can make a final decision or any other staff that helps with abilities, I just dislike the treatment and outright entitled behavior you demonstrate, so if you don‘t want your integrity to be insulted how about a lesson on respecting others as well.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Mal is deliberately ignoring parts of my argument to bring up counterarguments I've already covered. He is then either feigning ignorance or goading me to stray off topic to discuss his fallacies.

He is ignoring the story and world building that happen in this game, arguing that visuals matter more than what is happening in the story. Visualizing infinite speed is impossible. We have statements about the realm being infinite in the same sentence that we're told they're heading to the edge of said infinite realm.

I will no longer be responding as a result. He just wants me to repeat myself and already made his stance clear that "infinite speed Touhou is garble and outliers," so if he isn't even willing to budge on the subject and is endlessly repeating himself, then he is simply stonewalling. I will no longer engage with him at this point.

 

[Malomtek]

There is nothing disingenuous about what I’m arguing…I’m not avoiding any scientific facts.

The purpose of the spellcard is to mimic the effects an event horizon has, which is:
For the black hole to have enough gravitational force to pull it into the boundary called the event horizon, and thus nothing can escape it
..unless and now we given two options.

A. We base the representation off my interpretation and conclude with how the spell limits movement similarly to an event horizon and because the characters can go faster than light they’re neither escaping or being sucked in due to the nature of it, along with how Marisa can separate two planets with her asteroid belt (which is likely also gravity manipulation) as a note of consistency.

B. We go with yours and say it isn’t an event horizon but still give it a form of spatial manipulation because it’s vague.

Look I really don’t care, but please stop acting like you‘re a white dove in the presence of debates and for the love of god never accuse me of being “completely disingenuous” because that’s just Freudian slip and I’m quite tired, since I’m dealing with my own life.

Prom can make a final decision or any other staff that helps with abilities, I just dislike the treatment and outright entitled behavior you demonstrate, so if you don‘t want your integrity to be insulted how about a lesson on respecting others as well.

If the spell actually did mimic event horizons, then the opposing character would be constantly being pulled towards Marisa as long as they didn't struggle to break free, presumably to the effect of increasing the likelihood. They wouldn't be stuck in some "border zone".

And if you want to lecture me about "insulting one's integrity", maybe you should go on and lecture your compatriots like the one quoted down below:

Mal is deliberately ignoring parts of my argument to bring up counterarguments I've already covered. He is then either feigning ignorance or goading me to stray off topic to discuss his fallacies.

I am not ignoring anything that you've said, and I've literally responded to every point that you've made so far. You've not "covered" any of my counterarguments, instead going on irrelevant tangents like "muh plot" and "but the story".

This weird "Mal is doing this and that" well-poisoning nonsense needs to stop, especially since it's based on you trying to dance around the fact that you still haven't explained how I've made any fallacies thus far.

He is ignoring the story and world building that happen in this game, arguing that visuals matter more than what is happening in the story. Visualizing infinite speed is impossible. We have statements about the realm being infinite in the same sentence that we're told they're heading to the edge of said infinite realm.

The visuals are a part of the story, because Touhou, being a video game series first and foremost, is fundamentally visual-based, and attempts to entirely juxtapose them against the "story" are ludicrous in themselves. If the visuals don't support the extension of a character statement, then the visuals take precedence. Puffy and sanctimonious screeds about "story" and "world-building" reminiscent of "muh character essence" arguments means nothing here.

As for the bolded, don't try to burden fiction with the limits of your own imagination, please. It is actually quite easy to "visualize" infinite speed. You could have the character essentially regularly pseudo-teleporting. You could have the character zip and zop around the universe regularly at positively infinitesimal timeframes. You could have the character move, but from his own perspective literally everything is just a blur or noise or something like white light. You could have the character move somewhere, but an on-screen timer says that literally zero seconds have passed.

If a person crosses an "infinite" realm with what is clearly displayed as finite speed, then the realm is not infinite, no matter how what character statements say.

I will no longer be responding as a result. He just wants me to repeat myself and already made his stance clear that "infinite speed Touhou is garble and outliers," so if he isn't even willing to budge on the subject and is endlessly repeating himself, then he is simply stonewalling. I will no longer engage with him at this point.

Being "open minded" does not mean "willing to accept what one and one's own friend group has to say about anything".

You claim "infinite speed".

The visuals show finite speed.

This is not a case of "arguing from incredulity" or "close-mindedness". This is a case of the visual source material not displaying what you are essentially claiming it should.

And don't make any recourse to "it's just fiction" either, because fictional portrayals tends to make pretty clear distinctions between "infinite"/"immeasurable"/"truly absurd"/"Flash-tier" speed and "regular" super-speed, even of the MFTL+ variety.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

you can just agree to disagree and whichever arguments is more convincing to the people or staff will get accepted anyway as neither wants to budge with this topic

 

[Malomtek]

you can just agree to disagree and whichever arguments is more convincing to the people or staff will get accepted anyway as neither wants to budge with this topic

When people are referring to you in the third person in an attempt to poorly characterize your arguments, that's more than can be moved passed with just "agreeing to disagree".

That's just well-poisoning.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

You're convinced I'm against you, despite me stating earlier that you're actually arguing a new point and not the old point. That was a clear example of me defending you from being misinterpreted.

I didn't want anyone to think you were still bringing up points from IN, when your arguments involved the UFO feat. I did this because your arguments up to this point still deserve to be read even if I disagree with them.

Though, all that is happening here is that you think I am trying to poison the well. All I did, was explain why I no longer felt the need to respond to your replies, just in case anyone joining the thread, be they a user or staff member, wanted to know why I didn't respond to your reply and arguments.

I personally believe they are circular because you simply disagree with the entire plot and setting of a game. You think that is not the case.

Nothing will change your mind, and your current arguments will not change mine. I still consider your repetition to be stonewalling, and staff had previously advised to ignore stonewalling. Therefore I am ignoring. If you think I have some malicious intent, all i can say is that is not the case, and I'm genuinely sorry if you felt that it was. That was not my intent.

That is all there is to this. Let us not derail. End of discussion.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'm quite curious what's Prom opinion on the infinite speed bit, seeing as she only commented on the spell cards and gravity bit.

 

[Malomtek]

You're convinced I'm against you, despite me stating earlier that you're actually arguing a new point and not the old point. That was a clear example of me defending you from being misinterpreted.

I didn't want anyone to think you were still bringing up points from IN, when your arguments involved the UFO feat. I did this because your arguments up to this point still deserve to be read even if I disagree with them.

That was just to be "in fairness", like you said. Frankly, if you weren't "against" me generally, then you sure could have fooled me, because accusing me of "deliberately ignoring parts of [your] argument", "arguments from incredulity", and "stonewalling" doesn't really sound like someone who's anything but "against" me, or otherwise attempting to "defend [me] from being misinterpreted".

Of course, I don't "deliberately ignore" anyone's arguments, especially since I've responded to pretty much everyone here who's said anything of length, I don't consider referencing the visuals as "arguments from incredulity", and I don't interpret feeling the need to repeat myself as "stonewalling".

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This seems mostly related with Keine's history eating, so Purification here doesn't seem as literal purification. However, as is apparently reconstructing the world via this, I think it could be mostly something like Reality Warping.

Edit: One extra not-so-related thing. Shouldn't Yukari have Law Manipulation as she was capable of altering the rules of Perfect Possession, plus one of her Spell Cards messing with SCR in order to change a non-lethal danmaku into lethal danmaku?

Just saw this, both of these suggestions seem fine. Scans for Yukari's stuff are here and here (sources are Yukari and Reimu's AoCF route and Yukari's section in Grimoire of Marisa, respectively).

By the way, rereading Doge's spell card thing, I don't understand why Byakuren's Light Magic spell card is valid for light manip, but stuff with Light Sign in the name doesn't work. Feels like an odd inconsistency. For simplicity's sake, I'd be fine with only using the stuff before quotations in spell card names, unless we have other evidence to treat the entire thing as valid (like Cirno's "Minus K" or Yukari's spell cards).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hi.

I don't like appearing on these, so I'm going to ask once, for all of ye.

Everyone needs to stop bickering and accusing each other of this that and whatever. Some of you have received official warnings for this behavior, others this might be the first time you've taken part- but everyone, regardless of warnings, needs to take a step back and breathe. The staff are now begrudgingly watching this thread, lads and lasses. Bear in mind. I'll be trying to parse what's actually going on here, who is right and who is wrong, all that stuff- but it is made nigh impossible by the chatter.

Cheers.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Would a summary of what the current points are help?

Also why the hell do Touhou CRTs attract so much attention?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

A summary would help of what was agreed on so far and what was being debated so we can all move forward from the summary reply

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Would a summary of what the current points are help?

Also why the hell do Touhou CRTs attract so much attention?

I don't care about the CRT. I care about the drama, as it is my unfortunate job to care. I need to figure out the drama from Malomtek v. All.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

A summary would help of what was agreed on so far and what was being debated so we can all move forward from the summary reply

Well, technically speaking, nothing has been accepted yet. Promestein rejected resistance to gravity manipulation and doesn't seem to think that spell card names are valid for giving abilities. However, she also seemed to agree with Doge on the list of which spell card names are valid, which is something I'd like to discuss further since the list feels contradictory to itself in places and sort of goes against WoG.

I don't care about the CRT. I care about the drama, as it is my unfortunate job to care. I need to figure out the drama from Malomtek v. All.

Fair enough. I've already recommended that other people ignore Malomtek, and I myself don't plan on responding to him anytime soon, so hopefully things will calm down from here.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Well, technically speaking, nothing has been accepted yet. Promestein rejected resistance to gravity manipulation and doesn't seem to think that spell card names are valid for giving abilities. However, she also seemed to agree with Doge on the list of which spell card names are valid, which is something I'd like to discuss further since the list feels contradictory to itself in places and sort of goes against WoG.

list down things where people agreed/partially agree and disagree or neutral.

so if we have something like Magician self sustenance not being challenged at all its easier to be applied since not controversial or obvious

and as for the other so it's easy to track who disagrees and people can read why they disagree base on their reply.

doing it in an orderly manner will improve discussion so people who are late can catch up faster

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Gravity resistance and Yukari's infinite speed spell card have been rejected.

Self-sustenance for magicians is universally agreed upon.

Infinite speed Palanquin Ship is mostly agreed with, with one dissenting opinion.

Time stop resistance only has one disagreement.

No word on the non-spell card abilities, Goliath Doll tier change, and Sakuya's ability removals unfortunately, so I can't gauge how much support those have.

Spell card names should be discussed further IMO. I mostly agree with the list Doge posted earlier but it has a few issues. Seems like nearly everyone else in the thread agrees with what Doge has posted, however.

Oh right, and Keine's reality warping and Yukari's law manip still need to be discussed.

Hope this helps.

 

[Malomtek]

Oh right, and Keine's reality warping and Yukari's law manip still need to be discussed.

Since this comment is based on this quote:

This seems mostly related with Keine's history eating, so Purification here doesn't seem as literal purification. However, as is apparently reconstructing the world via this, I think it could be mostly something like Reality Warping.

Edit: One extra not-so-related thing. Shouldn't Yukari have Law Manipulation as she was capable of altering the rules of Perfect Possession, plus one of her Spell Cards messing with SCR in order to change a non-lethal danmaku into lethal danmaku?

I'll delve into that.

The "world reconstruction" of the "Total Purification" spell is so vague and unexplained that it could refer to practically anything. Given the spell comments' reference to nature conservation, it might even just refer to regrowing plants, or plant manipulation. Either way, the spell description is too vague to just flatly interpret it as "reality warping".

Yukari's stuff is weirder, and I don't think any of it really amounts to "law manipulation" per se. I can't seem to find anything in particular about the "initial rules" of perfect possession, or what "perfect possession" even really was to begin with, let alone whether any of its "rules" were changed by Yukari Yakumo. Changing the spell card rules shouldn't automatically change nonlethal bullet hells into lethal bullet hells, because "spell card rules" aren't metaphysical laws or anything, and they should have no intrinsic bearing on the properties of any given bullet hell to begin with, so I don't think "messing with SCR in order to change a non-lethal danmaku into lethal danmaku" is an accurate description of anything either.

But considering @Hecatia_Gaming didn't bring scans for any of this, she might possibly just be misremembering things. I will happily say that Yukari Yakumo has law manipulation if Hecatia Gaming further explains why she should have it.

And before anyone says anything, here's a quote from @Mr._Bambu in a private conversation that happened to involve both me and him, which he can verify if need be:

Mal didn't have entirely unreasonable points, to be frank, so ignoring him isn't justifiable.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

If a person crosses an "infinite" realm with what is clearly displayed as finite speed, then the realm is not infinite, no matter how what character statements say.

But, but that will downgrade multiple verses, such as the GoW verse lol.

And don't make any recourse to "it's just fiction" either, because fictional portrayals tends to make pretty clear distinctions between "infinite"/"immeasurable"/"truly absurd"/"Flash-tier" speed and "regular" super-speed, even of the MFTL+ variety.

Are you...perhaps assuming that every author knows Death Battle? Then it means every verses here is getting removed because the site doesn't allow that.
I would like to note, crossing an infinite distance, no matter how long, as long as it's finite, is still infinite speed, it doesn't matter if the ship crossed the Makai in 10000000000 Years, it's still infinite speed, because you can't cross infinite with a finite speed (It's impossible for it to be more than 10 years too, considering how Reimu doesn't seem to age).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Characters crossing a location that is infinite in size isn't an anti-feat for the location, it's a feat for the characters. I will repeat the same point I've made many times before, which is that if we accept background scrolling as the 'true' demonstration of a character's speed, nobody would reach even subsonic speeds.

If people have an issue with how we treat speed in situations like this, stop picking on individual verses and make a god damn site wide CRT if you hate it so ******* much.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh uhhhhh I forgot to change this earlier but Keine's time reversal should be space-time manipulation, not just time.

On a related note, everyone who has some degree of time resistance should get space-time resistance instead, since it's been repeatedly stated that space and time are inseparable and you cannot affect one without affecting the other.

Sorry for adding new stuff so late into the thread (´･ω･`)

 

[Shmooply]

I obviously agree with that.

 

[Malomtek]

But, but that will downgrade multiple verses, such as the GoW verse lol.

If people have an issue with how we treat speed in situations like this, stop picking on individual verses and make a god damn site wide CRT if you hate it so ******* much.

I'm not concerned with "multiple verses" right now, I'm concerned with this one.

Are you...perhaps assuming that every author knows Death Battle? Then it means every verses here is getting removed because the site doesn't allow that.
I would like to note, crossing an infinite distance, no matter how long, as long as it's finite, is still infinite speed, it doesn't matter if the ship crossed the Makai in 10000000000 Years, it's still infinite speed, because you can't cross infinite with a finite speed (It's impossible for it to be more than 10 years too, considering how Reimu doesn't seem to age).

Characters crossing a location that is infinite in size isn't an anti-feat for the location, it's a feat for the characters. I will repeat the same point I've made many times before, which is that if we accept background scrolling as the 'true' demonstration of a character's speed, nobody would reach even subsonic speeds.

You're still axiomatically assuming that the Makai realm is "infinite" based on character dialogue. I'm saying that this isn't true, based on the clear visuals displaying finite speed, which supersede character dialogue.

They got to the corner of Makai using clearly finite speed, regardless of the specific number involved. You can't cross a supposedly "infinite" distance" with finite speed. Therefore Makai is finite.

 

[Pixy]

Oh uhhhhh I forgot to change this earlier but Keine's time reversal should be space-time manipulation, not just time.

On a related note, everyone who has some degree of time resistance should get space-time resistance instead, since it's been repeatedly stated that space and time are inseparable and you cannot affect one without affecting the other.

Sorry for adding new stuff so late into the thread (´･ω･`)

Kek

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

You're still axiomatically assuming that the Makai realm is "infinite" based on character dialogue. I'm saying that this isn't true, based on the clear visuals displaying finite speed, which supersede character dialogue.

They got to the corner of Makai using clearly finite speed, regardless of the specific number involved. You can't cross a supposedly "infinite" distance" with finite speed. Therefore Makai is finite.

Visuals do not supersede character dialogues we take both at the same level and examine them on a case-by-case basis
we get context on the visuals based on the character dialogue and the context of the story behind it. especially on feats that would be impossible to portray using visual representation.

giving dialogue is important for that author to imply what kind of vision they are trying to represent when they introduce something or push a story or narrative with it. if we based solely on visual and take it as something that supersedes dialogues all the time despite not having any contradicting dialogue or representation regarding said feat then we'll be dismissing a lot of important information being pushed into the narrative.
and when I say a lot I mean a lot of franchise have dialogues and lores supersede visual representation especially in games. so I don't really see this argument as convincing

edit: I corrected some sentence that didn't make sense because I somehow dozed off midway writing something but proceeded to my next sentence normally

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

You're still axiomatically assuming that the Makai realm is "infinite" based on character dialogue. I'm saying that this isn't true, based on the clear visuals displaying finite speed, which supersede character dialogue.

They got to the corner of Makai using clearly finite speed, regardless of the specific number involved. You can't cross a supposedly "infinite" distance" with finite speed. Therefore Makai is finite.

This is quite honestly the worst possible argument you could make regarding that. If they travel an infinite distance in a finite amount of time, that's textbook infinite speed. No ifs or buts. Pretty sure that's even straight up in the speed page.

To disprove this, you have to:

• Show that this speed would be inconsistent with the scale of feats usually displayed (which turns it into an outlier; but given they already have a possibly on profile, doesn't seem the case)
• Prove that the realm being infinite is inconsistent based on other appearances (which I don't think would be the case here, but who knows)
• Try to prove the person stating the realm is infinite is unrealible within the verse (could be, though doubt it)
• Argue in some way that this wouldn't scale to the cast (the only one I could see being the case; the OP would have to show that the ship was already at full speed when the cast was trying to catch up to it; but then that begs the question... Why would they need a ship in the first place?)

 

[Malomtek]

Visuals do not supersede character dialogues we take both at the same level and examine them on a case-by-case basis
we get context on the visuals based on the character dialogue and the context of the story behind it. especially on feats that would be impossible to portray using visual representation.

giving dialogue is important for that author to imply what kind of vision they are trying to represent when they introduce something or push a story or narrative with it. if we based solely on visual and take it as something that supersedes dialogues all the time despite not having any contradicting dialogue or representation regarding said feat then we'll be dismissing a lot of important information being pushed into the narrative.
and when I say a lot I mean a lot of franchise have dialogues and lores supersede visual representation especially in games. so I don't really see this argument as convincing

edit: I corrected some sentence that didn't make sense because I somehow dozed off midway writing something but proceeded to my next sentence normally

I don't see why we should take the visuals and character dialogues on precisely the same level if they so clearly contradict each other. The characters are visually displayed moving at finite speeds to and from Makai and Hokkai, therefore, barring some weird spacetime trickery, Makai and Hokkai are clearly finite, if extensively large.

Sometimes character statements are just wrong, and they shouldn't be presented as true by default.

This is quite honestly the worst possible argument you could make regarding that. If they travel an infinite distance in a finite amount of time, that's textbook infinite speed. No ifs or buts. Pretty sure that's even straight up in the speed page.

If the sole basis for "infinite distance" is a bunch of character statements, and the characters are displayed passing through the stage areas at finite speeds, then there's no reason to put anything involving either the realm or the speeds as "infinite".

To disprove this, you have to:

• Show that this speed would be inconsistent with the scale of feats usually displayed (which turns it into an outlier; but given they already have a possibly on profile, doesn't seem the case)

Even if we accepted both the justification given for the "possibly" and this Palanquin Ship stuff as solidly infinite speeds (and I already debunked the "possibly" stuff), there would only be two feats displaying infinite speeds in the face of countless exploits and events where they don't display infinite speeds. It would just be two outliers.

• Prove that the realm being infinite is inconsistent based on other appearances (which I don't think would be the case here, but who knows)

Makai has literally only appeared twice in Touhou canon, in the mainline game "Undefined Fantastic Object" and the spin-off game "Double Spoiler". And I don't think Double Spoiler said anything in particular about Makai's size.

Then again, whether Makai is finite or "infinite" has no intrinsic bearing on either game's plot, so take that as you will.

• Try to prove the person stating the realm is infinite is unrealible within the verse (could be, though doubt it)

As I already explained above, the characters showed that they were moving at visibly finite speeds to the Palanquin Ship and Hokkai in Makai. This already makes the "infinite realm" statements unreliable.

• Argue in some way that this wouldn't scale to the cast (the only one I could see being the case; the OP would have to show that the ship was already at full speed when the cast was trying to catch up to it; but then that begs the question... Why would they need a ship in the first place?)

I genuinely thank you for giving me this idea. The Palanquin Ship is clearly presented as significantly faster than any of the 2hu characters themselves. There is no reason that even a supposedly "infinitely" fast Palanquin Ship should scale to them regardless.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Makai has literally only appeared twice in Touhou canon, in the mainline game "Undefined Fantastic Object" and the spin-off game "Double Spoiler". And I don't think Double Spoiler said anything in particular about Makai's size.

Then again, whether Makai is finite or "infinite" has no intrinsic bearing on either game's plot, so take that as you will.

Then there's nothing disproving it.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Let me start by apologizing for no scans. I can't send them on mobile, but I'll see if someone else can do it.

• Prove that the realm being infinite is inconsistent based on other appearances (which I don't think would be the case here, but who knows)

This is the first appearance of Makai in the series' new canon, and is also the same game we are told they're heading to Hokkai, which is located at "the edge of the infinite Makai."

• Try to prove the person stating the realm is infinite is unrealible within the verse (could be, though doubt it)

Their entire goal in this game is to travel to a location at Makai's edge, to unseal a person who is trapped there.

• Argue in some way that this wouldn't scale to the cast (the only one I could see being the case; the OP would have to show that the ship was already at full speed when the cast was trying to catch up to it; but then that begs the question... Why would they need a ship in the first place?)

The captain of the ship confirms the ship is on autopilot, even admitting she "doesn't do much these days." She and the ship are then directly compared to a bullet train by Sanae (for context, bullet trains travel at max speed their whole trip, while the "drivers" only oversee the trip and keep an eye in case they need to stop the train for any reason).

As for why the need the ship, there's one possible reason, and one confirmed reason. One possible reason being that they needed to gather several "treasures" which are actually what they need to unseal the character mentioned earlier. So having a large ship would let them carry large quantities of objects.

The second reason is confirmed by Marisa herself.

Marisa: "The miasma usually makes it impossible to go there."

Getting to Makai is impossible because of the miasma near the entrance. Due to being inside of the ship, they are able to bypass this usual barrier.

 

[Shmooply]

Oh no, if only you had someone to post the scans for you.
Oh wait. pfpfbtgfjghnfghjhnj-

The captain of the ship confirms the ship is on autopilot, even admitting she "doesn't do much these days." She and the ship are then directly compared to a bullet train by Sanae (for context, bullet trains travel at max speed their whole trip, while the "drivers" only oversee the trip and keep an eye in case they need to stop the train for any reason).

The second reason is confirmed by Marisa herself.

Marisa: "The miasma usually makes it impossible to go there."

Getting to Makai is impossible because of the miasma near the entrance. Due to being inside of the ship, they are able to bypass this usual barrier.