Touhou Revisions, Again (Sorry)

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also stop with the staff quotes, none of them have the arrow that leads to the original post, replies can be heavily edited, and for all I know you could be taking them heavily out of context. If you're impersonating or misrepresenting staff then that'd probably be a permaban, just letting you know.

Look at how easily you can edit someone's reply, isn't that insane? You really think someone would do that? Go on the internet and lie?

Not saying you're actually doing anything, but I'm not convinced by something that can be very, very easily faked.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

For what it's worth, even in interviews when talking about locations, ZUN has used the word infinite to describe the size of of said location. So, statements within the series are supported by him essentially reaffirming what he wrote.

As for your other grievances with infinite speed, in order to even have a rating for infinite speed in the first place, I think we have to give them some leeway. Otherwise only like 2 or 3 series will probably even qualify under our standards.

But I agree, we should leave this discussion to the staff thread.

And Zun himself can have a misunderstanding about infinity. And its like the man hasn't contradicted himself in other areas of his work, so his word is hardly concrete in this instance. My point still stands, whether you agree, or disagree with it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

ZUN has contradicted himself like twice, maybe 3 times in the history of the series. He's not an unreliable source, and any contradictions that come from him should override his previous statements unless there's significant in-universe evidence against it (things like Hell going from large planet level to regular planet level to infinite, the latter of which was his most recent stance and most backed up by canon). He certainly hasn't contradicted himself on anything relevant to Kaguya's corridor or the Palanquin Ship, which are the main points for infinite speed currently, so I don't see how this is even relevant.

Also him not understanding what infinity is is kind of a wild assumption considering this is a guy who writes about quantum physics from time to time. He would definitely know what infinity is :v

 

[Derpmaster9000]

ZUN has contradicted himself like twice, maybe 3 times in the history of the series. He's not an unreliable source, and any contradictions that come from him should override his previous statements unless there's significant in-universe evidence against it (things like Hell going from large planet level to regular planet level to infinite, the latter of which was his most recent stance and most backed up by canon). He certainly hasn't contradicted himself on anything relevant to Kaguya's corridor or the Palanquin Ship, which are the main points for infinite speed currently, so I don't see how this is even relevant.

Also him not understanding what infinity is is kind of a wild assumption considering this is a guy who writes about quantum physics from time to time. He would definitely know what infinity is :v

Even if this is true, the fact remains that he pretty much no sells how infinity is supposed to be multiple times in his work(Touhou), just as other authors do with theirs. In my opinion, and feel free to disagree, he clearly doesn't take what he says for the size of said dimensions that seriously.

 

[Malomtek]

Also him not understanding what infinity is is kind of a wild assumption considering this is a guy who writes about quantum physics from time to time. He would definitely know what infinity is :v

Simply having an interest in quantum physics doesn't mean you have any particularly "deep" understanding of mathematical or metaphysical concepts.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay? I don't think most artists really think about those sorts of things. We rarely take authorial intent into account on this wiki, so we have to go with what's in the text. If infinity works really ******* weirdly in Touhou, then whatever. It doesn't null the existence of infinity in the verse entirely just because it's not accurate to how it's portrayed in the real world.

I think you're overestimating how seriously artists are supposed to take these kinds of things, anyways. Most really don't care as much as you think they should.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

FFS, infinity isn't that deep or complicated. I could explain it to a child if I wanted to. This argument basically hinges on insulting ZUN's intelligence :v

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Okay? I don't think most artists really think about those sorts of things. We rarely take authorial intent into account on this wiki, so we have to go with what's in the text. If infinity works really ******* weirdly in Touhou, then whatever. It doesn't null the existence of infinity in the verse entirely just because it's not accurate to how it's portrayed in the real world.

I think you're overestimating how seriously artists are supposed to take these kinds of things, anyways. Most really don't care as much as you think they should.

Not sure who you're responding to there, but you're kinda no-selling the fact that I was the one making the argument that most authors don't give a toss about this shit like we do, if this is addressed to me.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

FFS, infinity isn't that deep or complicated. I could explain it to a child if I wanted to. This argument basically hinges on insulting ZUN's intelligence :v

How am I insulting his intelligence by saying that he doesn't take his own word on infinity when it comes to realms in Touhou seriously? WTF even is this argument dude? I'm not calling him an idiot or a dumbass here, I'm just stating how I see it based on how he's treating it in verse with statements of edges/ends and shit.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I was responding to you. I know authors don't care about this stuff; my point is that we can't use that to prove or disprove certain things about a verse just because an author may not fully grasp the concepts they write about (which by itself is an assumption that requires evidence). We go by what's the text above all else, intent be damned.

 

[Mobi2]

Not sure who you're responding to there, but you're kinda no-selling the fact that I was the one making the argument that most authors don't give a toss about this shit like we do, if this is addressed to me.

Do you have any particular reason why ZUN himself doesn't care?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

How am I insulting his intelligence by saying that he doesn't take his own word on infinity when it comes to realms in Touhou seriously? WTF even is this argument dude? I'm not calling him an idiot or a dumbass here, I'm just stating how I see it based on how he's treating it in verse with statements of edges/ends and shit.

That was in response to Malomtek. The fact of the matter is, infinity is not a deep concept. I was taught this shit in 5th grade and understood it perfectly, assuming a man in his 40s somehow doesn't know how it works is absurd.

I don't even know why we're still on this ******* topic when I suggested not discussing infinite speed until the staff thread concluded. This is the last I'll say on it.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Do you have any particular reason why ZUN himself doesn't care?

Feel free to disagree, but the fact that these dimensions he's made up are stated to be infinite, but then also stated to have an edge/end makes me believe that.

 

[Mobi2]

Also btw if we're arguing author intent regarding the infinite area/sized statements to just being plain old big why didn't he use it to describe the land of backdoor. Cause all he did to describe the land of backdoors was just having Reimu say oh wow this place is big and didn't use infinite whatsoever in its descriptions. We know he cares about the size of the realms because he himself said gensokyo itself is super small on numerous occasions.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

That was in response to Malomtek. The fact of the matter is, infinity is not a deep concept. I was taught this shit in 5th grade and understood it perfectly, assuming a man in his 40s somehow doesn't know how it works is absurd.

I don't even know why we're still on this ******* topic when I suggested not discussing infinite speed until the staff thread concluded. This is the last I'll say on it.

I'm still on this topic because others(including you) are responding, and I feel I need to respond back. That's all there is to it, nothing more. I have no problem waiting for that thread to conclude, and if its decided in favour of the current standard, then I'm done in this thread, as I literally have nothing left to say.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Also btw if we're arguing author intent regarding the infinite area/sized statements to just being plain old big why didn't he use it to describe the land of backdoor. Cause all he did to describe the land of backdoors was just having Reimu say oh wow this place is big and didn't use infinite whatsoever in its descriptions. We know he cares about the size of the realms because he himself said gensokyo itself is super small on numerous occasions.

Again, not an expert on Touhou here, but that doesn't really neg my point. Again, stating they are infinite, but then stating they've reached or are approaching an end/edge just kneecaps the whole thing for me. You clearly see it differently, and that's fine. This is just the way I see it.

That was in response to Malomtek. The fact of the matter is, infinity is not a deep concept. I was taught this shit in 5th grade and understood it perfectly, assuming a man in his 40s somehow doesn't know how it works is absurd.

I don't even know why we're still on this ******* topic when I suggested not discussing infinite speed until the staff thread concluded. This is the last I'll say on it.

I never argued it was a deep concept. What I argued is that Zun might not be all that serious when he states it, given those same scenes that he wrote for singular dimensions describe an edge/end to them. That is all. I could be wrong, sure, but like I said above, Zun himself writing that in kinda kneecaps the whole infinity thing for me. and I know it doesn't for you, which is fair enough. I'll say this, perhaps it was presumptive of me to suggest that he doesn't understand what infinity actually is, my apologies, but the other point still stands that he may not take it as seriously as we do given what his works have stated. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Mobi2]

Again, not an expert on Touhou here, but that doesn't really neg my point. Again, stating they are infinite, but then stating they've reached or are approaching an end/edge just kneecaps the whole thing for me. You clearly see it differently, and that's fine. This is just the way I see it.

I never argued it was a deep concept. What I argued is that Zun might not be all that serious when he states it, given those same scenes that he wrote for singular dimensions describe an edge/end to them. That is all. I could be wrong, sure, but like I said above, Zun himself writing that in kinda kneecaps the whole infinity thing for me. and I know it doesn't for you, which is fair enough. I'll say this, perhaps it was presumptive of me to suggest that he doesn't understand what infinity actually is, my apologies, but the other point still stands that he may not take it as seriously as we do given what his works have stated. That's all I'm saying.

The main issue with that idea is that I can start at number 1583 on a number line and stretch that onto infinity and it'd still be infinite.

 

[Malomtek]

That was in response to Malomtek. The fact of the matter is, infinity is not a deep concept. I was taught this shit in 5th grade and understood it perfectly, assuming a man in his 40s somehow doesn't know how it works is absurd.

"Infinity", as a concept, is a fair bit more complex than the common ideas surrounding it. Hell, we base our entire tiering system off of notions of infinity that most people usually don't even consider in their day-to-day lives.

I'm not trying to insult ZUN's intelligence here, I'm saying that his understanding of the term "infinity" may be just as "glib" and superficial as most people's, and therefore "infinite" statements in his work should not be automatically taken at complete face value all the time.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Might as well make a list of what hasn't been 100% accepted (and isn't stuck in staff thread limbo).

-Magician self sustenance (hasn't been evaluated by staff yet despite approval from everyone else)
-Time stop resistance for everyone who's been to Higan, Avici, and Eientei
-Reimu holy manip, dimensional travel, summoning, precog, power null, creation, metal manipulation, multiple selves, and martial arts
-Marisa 4th wall breaking and stamina changes
-Sakuya losing weapon creation and mass manipulation
-Yukari telepathy, limited stat amp/reduction, and AP addition
-Keine time manipulation, resurrection, and earth manipulation
-Kanako dimensional travel
-Goliath doll losing its tier 9 key
-Mamizou darkness manip and sealing
-Kasen immortality negation, resistance to poison, and AP addition
-Kutaka water and light manip (went overlooked in the spell card overview)
-New images for Mokou, Momiji, and Kutaka

 

[Promestein]

You don't need permission from me over every little thing, and definitely not over images.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, we need confirmation from at least one staff member, right? I don't like asking you for everything here but historically Touhou threads don't get much staff input :v Though I guess if nothing else here is controversial and a majority opinion is good enough, that's fine, I just like being absolutely sure.

Glad to know I don't need permission to change images, I'll probably change everything using placeholder fanart (except characters with no canon appearances).

 

[Promestein]

I can give some opinions still.

• "Time stop resistance for everyone who's been to Higan, Avici, and Eientei"
  • I don't think these sorts of feats should be counted as Resistance to Time Stop rather than some sort of currently undefined ability to move within certain types of spaces.
• "Reimu holy manip, dimensional travel, summoning, precog, power null, creation, metal manipulation, multiple selves, and martial arts"
  • Specification? Generally seems fine though.
• "Keine time manipulation, resurrection, and earth manipulation"
  • Why?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I fail to see how it's not a time stop when the series makes it pretty clear that time doesn't flow within these locations. Even without Higan and Avici, I think Eientei should stay since Kaguya's spell of eternity is currently treated as a time stop on her profile. Though I guess if it's a matter of characters moving in an area that passively has stopped time not being good enough for resistance to time stop, I can't argue with that even if I disagree with it :v

Reimu's holy manipulation, dimensional travel, and summoning are already technically on her profile (performing exorcisms and blessings, bringing her physical body to Hell, and her entire god summoning key), they're just not under her P&A. Precognition is from WaHH where she does accurate fortune telling. Power null is from FS and Oriental Sacred Palace where she destroys magical seals. Creation and metal manipulation from WaHH, where she summons a god to create metal. Multiple selves from SSiB since she states that having a god enshrined in her body is like having multiple personalities, and these personalities may fight among themselves if she takes on too many. Martial arts from HRtP's manual stating she's trained in them.

Keine has time manipulation and resurrection comes from this spell card, which is stated to reverse time and has the ability to temporarily bring back the dead. Earth manipulation comes from 'Total Purification', which is described as "world reconstruction". ZUN's comment also mentions things like nature conservation, so the 'reconstruction' here is likely referring to the natural world (which could also be plant manipulation). It's a little vague, I'll admit.

Hope this clarifies those things.

 

[Promestein]

I guess?

Total Purification is way too vague. Fine with the other Keine spellcard as a possibility. Reimu's stuff is fine.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Leaving Total Purification out is fine by me. I think if we're not 100% sure on the time stop stuff I could just leave it at Eientei since Avici and Higan are much less explicit about having stopped time.

Since the staff infinite speed CRT seems to be wrapping up, I guess the Palanquin Ship feat is fine too? DT seems to have some problems with infinite speed Touhou but he'll have to make his own thread for that >:V

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Leaving Total Purification out is fine by me. I think if we're not 100% sure on the time stop stuff I could just leave it at Eientei since Avici and Higan are much less explicit about having stopped time.

Since the staff infinite speed CRT seems to be wrapping up, I guess the Palanquin Ship feat is fine too? DT seems to have some problems with infinite speed Touhou but he'll have to make his own thread for that >:V

Either that, or we call him in here so he can give his own arguments here?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean, maybe. He had an issue with Kaguya's corridor feat specifically, so I think moving all the infinite speed stuff to another thread would be better. It's up to him though. Hell, for all I know he might not even want to follow through on downgrades and is just complaining about something he disagrees with. Not like that's uncommon on this wiki :v

 

[Derpmaster9000]

I mean, maybe. He had an issue with Kaguya's corridor feat specifically, so I think moving all the infinite speed stuff to another thread would be better. It's up to him though. Hell, for all I know he might not even want to follow through on downgrades and is just complaining about something he disagrees with. Not like that's uncommon on this wiki :v

Perhaps, but we won't know until he responds, which I suspect he might now, since Malomtek literally just asked him in the infinite speed thread, lol.

 

[Promestein]

We'll see.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Eh, doing it in that thread seems like derailment. It's about wiki-wide policy, not just one verse. We'll see how he responds, however.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump? Seems like the speed CRT has reached a conclusion, which I'm pretty sure means the Palanquin Ship feat is valid under the current standards. It seems like mostly everything else has been agreed to, so if there's nothing else, I can apply the changes and after that the thread can be closed.

I'd like to say that this is the last Touhou CRT this year but I got one more planned while we're waiting for winter Comiket where ZUN will totally release a music CD that makes the cosmology High 1-A

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

Blease I literally just need to know if its okay to apply the changes (´･ω･`)

 

[Malomtek]

Seems like the speed CRT has reached a conclusion, which I'm pretty sure means the Palanquin Ship feat is valid under the current standards.

It seems. @DontTalkDT seems to have something to say about "infinite speed" Touhou feats, and I don't think anybody should do anything until either he or Promestein makes the call.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Then he can make his own thread on it. The only issue Prom had with the feat was the general concept of 'edge of infinity' feats, which has since been accepted in a staff thread, so it should be fine to use.

DT didn't even object to the Palanquin Ship feat, which is the feat we've spent like 180 posts debating, so it's not even relevant to this specific thread.

 

[Accelerate420]

While I'm not the most versed on Touhou I'm not particularly against Spell Cards having actual hax to them or anything, but the infinite thing is sorta debunked already by canon itself in Forbidden Scrollery, isn't it? About how Reimu and Marisa aren't even faster than light? How do you treat that?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Where does that come from? The only notable speed related thing in Forbidden Scrollery is this.

Anyways, we don't really accept Marisa's statement in SSiB about nothing surpassing the speed of light, since like 4 pages after she says that she and Yorihime perform back-to-back FTL feats. That statement has been blatantly contradicted and overwritten so many times that we just disregard it.

 

[Accelerate420]

Where does that come from? The only notable speed related thing in Forbidden Scrollery is this.

Anyways, we don't really accept Marisa's statement in SSiB about nothing surpassing the speed of light, since like 4 pages after she says that she and Yorihime perform back-to-back FTL feats. That statement has been blatantly contradicted and overwritten so many times that we just disregard it.

It comes from that. They literally couldn't catch a hare ( an oddity, not a regular one ), but Sakuya did it because she's absurdly fast. You'd reason then that they aren't as fast as Sakuya, thus not being infinite speed. Unless you argue this is a temporary state under the Spell Card itself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What? That just means Sakuya is faster than them. It's only a feat for Sakuya, not an anti-feat for Reimu or Marisa.

One infinite speed character can still be slower than another, you know.

 

[Accelerate420]

What? That just means Sakuya is faster than them. It's only a feat for Sakuya, not an anti-feat for Reimu or Marisa.

One infinite speed character can still be slower than another, you know.

?

That's not how that works, I'm sorry. In the work itself they're attempting to catch an oddity hare. They're failing miserably because it's faster than them, but Sakuya can catch it extremely-- and I mean EXTREMELY casually without breaking a sweat because she's FTL. It is an anti-feat for them. It's logical reasoning. The rabbit wasn't going varying degrees of FTL.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We have no way to accurately determine how fast the thing was moving because it isn't even a real thing we know the speed of IRL. Its only feat is outspeeding Reimu and Marisa, which means it also has infinite speed. It's not just a regular animal, y'know.

Sakuya being stated to be FTL can mean literally anything; sure, by itself, the statement only implies low FTL speeds, but it could just as easily mean MFTL+ or infinite since, y'know, those are both above the speed of light. And we have several explicit feats showing those speeds.

Even taking everything you're saying at face value, this would be a massive outlier for a series that quite regularly displays FTL speeds and much higher. We wouldn't really use it regardless of its accuracy if its too far out of line with what's consistently shown.