Touhou Revisions, Again (Sorry)

[TheGreatJedi13]

I don't see why we should take the visuals and character dialogues on precisely the same level if they so clearly contradict each other. The characters are visually displayed moving at finite speeds to and from Makai and Hokkai, therefore, barring some weird spacetime trickery, Makai and Hokkai are clearly finite, if extensively large.

Sometimes character statements are just wrong, and they shouldn't be presented as true by default.

Then we don't see eye to eye on this. and there is nothing to go on to. we have different interpretations but mine do not see any contradiction to this as nothing disproves it as being true and what you think is a contradiction can also be framed to not contradict the dialogues and lore implications
agree to disagree

besides Lephyr already commented how your debunks of them slowing down and decelerating, seemingly moving on finite speed doesn't make it not infinite because it doesn't matter how much time it takes as long as you crossed an infinite distance
because dividing infinite into several seconds/hours/years is still infinite. and we only need to prove that said infinite distance is truly infinite.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The captain of the ship confirms the ship is on autopilot, even admitting she "doesn't do much these days." She and the ship are then directly compared to a bullet train by Sanae (for context, bullet trains travel at max speed their whole trip, while the "drivers" only oversee the trip and keep an eye in case they need to stop the train for any reason).

As for why the need the ship, there's one possible reason, and one confirmed reason. One possible reason being that they needed to gather several "treasures" which are actually what they need to unseal the character mentioned earlier. So having a large ship would let them carry large quantities of objects.

The second reason is confirmed by Marisa herself.

Marisa: "The miasma usually makes it impossible to go there."

Getting to Makai is impossible because of the miasma near the entrance. Due to being inside of the ship, they are able to bypass this usual barrier.

Then yeah, this supports infinite to me.

When they even take the time to explain the need for the ship despite being as fast

Oh, if only other series would do that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We're still on this? I really don't think we need to waste this much effort on a single dissenting opinion unless it's from staff. Going by his logic, every single lightning dodging/light timing feat would be invalid because the characters don't look like they're moving fast. Hell, nobody would ever surpass FTE speeds.

Everything here stems from a fundamental lack of understanding on how this wiki operates. There is no point trying to explain anything to him, we should've learned a long time ago that he has no interest in fair debate, only stonewalling.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Everything here stems from a fundamental lack of understanding on how this wiki operates. There is no point trying to explain anything to him, we should've learned a long time ago that he has no interest in fair debate, only stonewalling.

You've been warned already by Bambu to stop with this.

Regardless of his personal position, his points do need to be addressed. They have been done, and even my own possible counterarguments in support to his got addressed.

With that, I believe that's everything in the OP. So now we need to wait for staff. I'm still curious what Prom's position is in regards to the ship's speed and scaling to the characters.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean, I did address his points. The idea that characters not visibly appearing to move fast is considered an anti-feat is absurd, and I was pointing that out. If people wanna keep debating him, fine, I'm not gonna stop them, I just advise against it based on personal experience.

I guess if we're moving on from infinite speed for the time being, I would like to discuss the spell cards more. I didn't really get a chance to bring up my own points in support of certain abilities before it got drowned out by the speed debate.

Currently I think using the spell card's genre to grant abilities is fine, since WoG makes it pretty clear that the genre is what kind of attack the card is. So stuff like Reimu's dream manipulation and Youmu's light manipulation should stay.

 

[Malomtek]

Then there's nothing disproving it.

Except for the fact that, "cinematic time" or otherwise, the characters were able to move towards Makai's corner with what are clearly finite speeds.

Then we don't see eye to eye on this. and there is nothing to go on to. we have different interpretations but mine do not see any contradiction to this as nothing disproves it as being true and what you think is a contradiction can also be framed to not contradict the dialogues and lore implications
agree to disagree

besides Lephyr already commented how your debunks of them slowing down and decelerating, seemingly moving on finite speed doesn't make it not infinite because it doesn't matter how much time it takes as long as you crossed an infinite distance
because dividing infinite into several seconds/hours/years is still infinite. and we only need to prove that said infinite distance is truly infinite.

Yeah, let's "agree to disagree" on this.

The captain of the ship confirms the ship is on autopilot, even admitting she "doesn't do much these days." She and the ship are then directly compared to a bullet train by Sanae (for context, bullet trains travel at max speed their whole trip, while the "drivers" only oversee the trip and keep an eye in case they need to stop the train for any reason).

Now wait just one minute.

Sanae was comparing Palanquin Ship to a bullet train in the sense of it being on autopilot, not in the sense of it being at "max speed", whatever that may be, at all times, or any other particular function of a bullet train.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Quick question: how exactly would one 'visualize' infinite speeds in a way that you find satisfactory? I mean, humans can't even perceive the speed of light, let alone something infinitely faster than it. And again, no piece of media on the planet represents fictional characters' speeds with 100% visual accuracy, because the audience needs to ******* see what's happening. Same reason Sonic doesn't seemingly run at FTL speeds all the time, or why we can perceive lightning dodging feats despite that not being possible IRL.

If you truly, genuinely believe that being able to visually see characters move is a debunk for speed feats, then by all means, make a CRT about it. Because the way you're treating Touhou's speed feats would need to be applied to every other verse as well for consistency's sake, and I can't really see staff agreeing to axe the majority of speed feats on the wiki because "it doesn't look fast enough". But as it stands now, the standards in place don't agree with you.

You're still ignoring the fact that the ship still crossed an infinite distance in a finite amount of time with 0 indication that the ship ever stopped or slowed down. You need evidence of these things, and considering I and a few others here have repeatedly gone through UFO's script for scans that back up our points and haven't found anything suggesting the ship slowed down or stopped, then I can confidently say that such evidence doesn't exist. Bring evidence for these claims or stop making them.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Quick question: how exactly would one 'visualize' infinite speeds in a way that you find satisfactory? I mean, humans can't even perceive the speed of light, let alone something infinitely faster than it. And again, no piece of media on the planet represents fictional characters' speeds with 100% visual accuracy, because the audience needs to ******* see what's happening. Same reason Sonic doesn't seemingly run at FTL speeds all the time, or why we can perceive lightning dodging feats despite that not being possible IRL.

If you truly, genuinely believe that being able to visually see characters move is a debunk for speed feats, then by all means, make a CRT about it. Because the way you're treating Touhou's speed feats would need to be applied to every other verse as well for consistency's sake, and I can't really see staff agreeing to axe the majority of speed feats on the wiki because "it doesn't look fast enough". But as it stands now, the standards in place don't agree with you.

You're still ignoring the fact that the ship still crossed an infinite distance in a finite amount of time with 0 indication that the ship ever stopped or slowed down. You need evidence of these things, and considering I and a few others here have repeatedly gone through UFO's script for scans that back up our points and haven't found anything suggesting the ship slowed down or stopped, then I can confidently say that such evidence doesn't exist. Bring evidence for these claims or stop making them.

No offence, but I'm pretty sure he already answered this earlier in the thread. Its just no one seems to have noticed how he would treat them. Just scroll up through his comments man, you should find the one where he's responding to either Lephyr or Overlord and says how it could be within fiction.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Except for the fact that, "cinematic time" or otherwise, the characters were able to move towards Makai's corner with what are clearly finite speeds.

We are told the distance is infinite. The ship can travel it and they are shown speeds able to tag the ship. Nothing contradicts the distance being infinite.

Muh visuals is not sufficient argument. If they have context that contradict the distance being infinite, that's an entirely different beast. But it seems it doesn't from what have been brought up.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

No offence, but I'm pretty sure he already answered this earlier in the thread. Its just no one seems to have noticed how he would treat them. Just scroll up through his comments man, you should find the one where he's responding to either Lephyr or Overlord and says how it could be within fiction.

None of his examples contradict this particular feat, so they are irrelevant.

Simply put, visuals by themselves mean nothing. We are given the context and specific information regarding this realm that has yet to be contradicted.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I assume you're referring to this post, correct?

I will admit I overlooked that, but the fundamental point remains the same. A viewer has to be able to parse what they're looking at, and the descriptions given here would be visually incoherent, possibly even posing the risk of seizures in some people. No game developer on the ******* planet is going to display speeds 100% in conjunction with lore, because doing so is difficult, and even if they decided to do so, it'd make whatever they're working on hell to play. The Sonic comparison comes into play again here, in that Sonic is quite obviously FTL, but designing a stage around that is nigh impossible in the vast majority of settings, and the game would be virtually impossible to play.

Imagine playing Touhou like this. Or like this. Nobody will ever deliberately design a game like that because it ******* sucks. Hell, I don't think game devs even consider what speeds characters should 'reasonably' be traveling at anyways (unless it's a racing game but Touhou definitely isn't one of those).

Of course, there's also the fact that the speeds visually shown are just as inconsistent with MFTL+, FTL, or whatever other high speeds Touhou characters have canonically reached. If we're following this line of logic, let's just say '**** it' and downgrade everyone to subsonic. But we all know that's never ******* happening.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

None of his examples contradict this particular feat, so they are irrelevant.

Simply put, visuals by themselves mean nothing. We are given the context and specific information regarding this realm that has yet to be contradicted.

So both Makai and Hokkai are part of the same dimension then? Or are they separated by dimensional boundaries? Also I never argued for the sake of visuals, so I don't know why you're assuming I go by that line of logic. I will say this though. Them reaching the edge of a supposedly infinite dimension doesn't really sell me on its infiniteness, since I'm pretty sure infinity isn't supposed to have a beginning or an end. Kinda contradicts the whole point of it, since its not really supposed to be a number.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Oh yeah,
Also none of his examples actually imply infinite without a mountain of context.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Them reaching the edge of a supposedly infinite dimension doesn't really sell me on its infiniteness, since I'm pretty sure infinity isn't supposed to have a beginning or an end. Kinda contradicts the whole point of it, since its not really supposed to be a number.

This is wrong.

Watch this

 

[Shmooply]

So both Makai and Hokkai are part of the same dimension then?

Yes. Makai is the dimension, while Hokkai is a corner of it.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

I assume you're referring to this post, correct?

I will admit I overlooked that, but the fundamental point remains the same. A viewer has to be able to parse what they're looking at, and the descriptions given here would be visually incoherent, possibly even posing the risk of seizures in some people. No game developer on the ******* planet is going to display speeds 100% in conjunction with lore, because doing so is difficult, and even if they decided to do so, it'd make whatever they're working on hell to play. The Sonic comparison comes into play again here, in that Sonic is quite obviously FTL, but designing a stage around that is nigh impossible in the vast majority of settings, and the game would be virtually impossible to play.

Imagine playing Touhou like this. Or like this. Nobody will ever deliberately design a game like that because it ******* sucks. Hell, I don't think game devs even consider what speeds characters should 'reasonably' be traveling at anyways (unless it's a racing game but Touhou definitely isn't one of those).

Of course, there's also the fact that the speeds visually shown are just as inconsistent with MFTL+, FTL, or whatever other high speeds Touhou characters have canonically reached. If we're following this line of logic, let's just say '**** it' and downgrade everyone to subsonic. But we all know that's never ******* happening.

Bro, you're honestly getting a bit too heated here. I'm not about to try and downplay Touhou characters to subsonic, there's no need to throw that in there, especially since that's not even an argument. Also, to the whole seizure thing, that isn't much of an argument either, especially when you consider his last point, about showing a timer on screen stating zero seconds have passed. That's a more than valid way, and another one would be stating outright as a character's attack hits immediately that it no-sold distance entirely. That's another good way to demonstrate infinite/instant speed. And I mean something immediate, not overtime. Does Touhou have something legitimately like that as an attack which someone managed to react to and evade/block? If so, that would be great evidence for it, as would the timer example or something similar.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

This is wrong.

Watch this

Already seen it. Same channel covers a finite universe that runs counter to what is said in that video, and has an equal amount of backing from scientists given their limited understanding of the universe currently.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Oh yeah,
Also none of his examples actually imply infinite without a mountain of context.

State a character moving with raw speed alone, moving across any distance in zero time, and show on panel everything frozen around them. Boom. Easiest thing in the world.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

State a character moving with raw speed alone, moving across any distance in zero time, and show on panel everything frozen around them. Boom. Easiest thing in the world.

Zero time will probably be stated as zero time. So same thing here, a statement to support the feat.

And you could still downplay as "actually, it isn't shown as literally 0, so calc it compared to a snail pace".

That's why the context matters in such a case.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Also, you don't want to open the can of worms for an infinite universe that has an edge, otherwise literally every bloody finite universe in fiction given that purely for having an edge has to be thrown out the window, and we'd have to do away with how we tier universal feats for the most part.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also, you don't want to open the can of worms for an infinite universe that has an edge, otherwise literally every bloody finite universe in fiction given that purely for having an edge has to be thrown out the window, and we'd have to do away with how we tier universal feats for the most part.

Not really, because context matters. And it has already been brought before and for multiple verses. Their own context disprove the notion of infinite.

What's the context to disprove it here?

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Zero time will probably be stated as zero time. So same thing here, a statement to support the feat.

And you could still downplay as "actually, it isn't shown as literally 0, so calc it compared to a snail pace".

That's why the context matters in such a case.

A statement with a proper visualization so there is no argument to be had. The latter can mostly exist without the former, unless in special cases like portraying infinite speed(though even this can be leap frogged over by showing a character breaking into the timestream and time-travelling through raw speed for something even better in immeasurable.) The former on its own though, is the very reason why stuff took ages to be accepted. A good example that comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure Fujiwara will be sick of this series being used as an example, is dragon ball, with Cell's solar system busting statement. Sure, its accepted now, but go back a while ago when there was much less evidence other than just Cell's word and not many were willing to use it, because it could've been hyperbole or some other such reason for why it was invalid, because he never actually did it.

The last part FYI isn't to be aimed at Touhou specifically, its just as a response to what you're saying.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to Malomtek with that last bit. If he wants to insist that visuals take precedence over all else, the least he could do is go the full distance with it.

Also, reaching the 'end' of an infinite distance isn't particularly uncommon in fiction (one example being Necrozma's light 'crossing all of Ultra Space', despite said space being infinite). Does this make sense with real world logic? No, of course not, but just like the thousands of other things on this wiki that violate real world logic, we can't just disregard them entirely.

This whole debate over visuals is stupid. We don't 'see' classic Sonic running at FTL speeds, we don't 'see' Dante or Sol Badguy fighting at immeasurable speeds, and we don't 'see' Touhou characters flying at infinite speeds. None of their speed tiers are invalid because of this. This is no longer a Touhou debate; what we're arguing with here is wiki policy. So go take it up with staff if it's an issue. But if you have an issue with visual discrepancies in speed feats, going one verse at a time isn't the way to fix it.

By the way, an infinite speed feat similarly reliant on 'reaching the end of infinity' (Kaguya's corridor crossing) was already accepted by staff. I really don't think they'll have a problem with this feat as well, considering both are more or less the same thing in practice.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

Not really, because context matters. And it has already been brought before and for multiple verses. Their own context disprove the notion of infinite.

What's the context to disprove it here?

I've seen the threads where its been brought up. When using this as a benchmark in particular, it kinda negs any argument for it not being, because then you have to prove conclusively that said fictional verse stops at some arbitrary number after bringing in this logic, which is not really something I saw being done for some of them. It just got rejected. Hell, I'm pretty sure some of the staff even no-sold using the PBS video as a good reasoning for it, purely because it either wasn't actual fact yet, or because, ironically enough, they pulled the fiction card. Either way, I suppose this topic has gotten rather derailed by me, since its supposed to be about Touhou, and not other shit. My only real peeve is with the infinity stuff. I really don't care for the other stuff being discussed here. It mostly seems fine from what I can see. Not that my opinion matters all that much, but eh.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to Malomtek with that last bit. If he wants to insist that visuals take precedence over all else, the least he could do is go the full distance with it.

Also, reaching the 'end' of an infinite distance isn't particularly uncommon in fiction (one example being Necrozma's light 'crossing all of Ultra Space', despite said space being infinite). Does this make sense with real world logic? No, of course not, but just like the thousands of other things on this wiki that violate real world logic, we can't just disregard them entirely.

This whole debate over visuals is stupid. We don't 'see' classic Sonic running at FTL speeds, we don't 'see' Dante or Sol Badguy fighting at immeasurable speeds, and we don't 'see' Touhou characters flying at infinite speeds. None of their speed tiers are invalid because of this. This is no longer a Touhou debate; what we're arguing with here is wiki policy. So go take it up with staff if it's an issue. But if you have an issue with visual discrepancies in speed feats, going one verse at a time isn't the way to fix it.

By the way, an infinite speed feat similarly reliant on 'reaching the end of infinity' (Kaguya's corridor crossing) was already accepted by staff. I really don't think they'll have a problem with this feat as well, considering both are more or less the same thing in practice.

Wasn't the corridor thing previously rejected though? What exactly changed about it that convinced them it was golden?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And I agree with you on that

A statement with a proper visualization so there is no argument to be had. The latter can mostly exist without the former, unless in special cases like portraying infinite speed(though even this can be leap frogged over by showing a character breaking into the timestream and time-travelling through raw speed for something even better in immeasurable.) The former on its own though, is the very reason why stuff took ages to be accepted. A good example that comes to mind, and I'm pretty sure Fujiwara will be sick of this series being used as an example, is dragon ball, with Cell's solar system busting statement. Sure, its accepted now, but go back a while ago when there was much less evidence other than just Cell's word and not many were willing to use it, because it could've been hyperbole or some other such reason for why it was invalid, because he never actually did it.

The last part FYI isn't to be aimed at Touhou specifically, its just as a response to what you're saying.

And I would say visualization should not be used exclusively against something. And the wiki, up to from what I've seen, doesn't just take it.

Cell straight up has no visualization in the manga or anime. In fact, the feat got accepted because of the immense support through statements in all manner of media.

The only visualization it has is from a non-canon source, that's used only to confirm that his statement is legit alongside the mountain of statements from all possible media. It's the case of an statement so well supported that there's no question to be had that is legit.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I've seen the threads where its been brought up. When using this as a benchmark in particular, it kinda negs any argument for it not being, because then you have to prove conclusively that said fictional verse stops at some arbitrary number after bringing in this logic, which is not really something I saw being done for some of them. It just got rejected. Hell, I'm pretty sure some of the staff even no-sold using the PBS video as a good reasoning for it, purely because it either wasn't actual fact yet, or because, ironically enough, they pulled the fiction card. Either way, I suppose this topic has gotten rather derailed by me, since its supposed to be about Touhou, and not other shit. My only real peeve is with the infinity stuff. I really don't care for the other stuff being discussed here. It mostly seems fine from what I can see. Not that my opinion matters all that much, but eh.

You don't have to be convinced. That's completely fair.

I personally don't have a problem with these statements. We simply share different views there.

But am specially curious with what Prom's gotta say.

 

[Shmooply]

Wasn't the corridor thing previously rejected though? What exactly changed about it that convinced them it was golden?

I think Mokou's talking about a different feat. The "Reisen has infinite speed for closing all the doors in the corridor" was the one that got rejected.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Wasn't the corridor thing previously rejected though? What exactly changed about it that convinced them it was golden?

You may be thinking of the prior argument of Reisen sealing up every door in the infinite corridor, which was in fact rejected due to a translation error.

The one I'm talking about is the Imperishable Night cast reaching the end of the corridor in every route, something that is consistently stated between routes. That's what got accepted, and IIRC Promestein even admitted she didn't have any real counterpoints against it, so that's what we're currently using for the possibly rating.

I really hope this doesn't turn into a thread about the validity of infinite speed feats...

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Shmooply stop being faster than me, you're making me look bad >:V

 

[Shmooply]

Shmooply stop being faster than me, you're making me look bad >:V

Not my fault I have infinite speed, maybe you should get good at Touhou.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not my fault I have infinite speed, maybe you should get good at Touhou.

 

[Derpmaster9000]

In any case, I have nothing else to really say here.

And I agree with you on that

And I would say visualization should not be used exclusively against something. And the wiki, up to from what I've seen, doesn't just take it.

Cell straight up has no visualization in the manga or anime. In fact, the feat got accepted because of the immense support through statements in all manner of media.

The only visualization it has is from a non-canon source, that's used only to confirm that his statement is legit alongside the mountain of statements from all possible media. It's the case of an statement so well supported that there's no question to be had that is legit.

It also got accepted because a calc for a first form Frieza feat put him at dwarf-star level+, which made it not much of a leap to assume that Cell, who was much stronger than final form Frieza, could be capable of what he suggested. In fact, from what I recall, there was still tension over Cell having solar system level until that boyo came around, which solidified it much more than just all the statements in media. Regardless though, this isn't the place to be talking about this shit, lol. I could save this for a discord or somewhere else. Outside of the infinity shit, which'll always be a bit of a annoyance with me, I'm no expert on Touhou, but the evidence presented for most of the other stuff looks solid, so I won't say anything on that. Regardless, I'm about done here. Not to say I accomplished anything really, but I'm out.

Malomtek, if you want to continue this bro, have at it. More power to you. As for the rest of you, have a fine evening. Or morning or whatever depending on where you live. I'll see some of you back in the death battle thread for some more casual talk.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I do genuinely think if 'reaching the end of an infinite space' feats are this controversial then maybe this would be better suited for a staff thread. By no means is this something specific to Touhou. It doesn't seem like anybody here cares so much as to do so, but I could be wrong. Either way our best option is to wait for staff input since I don't see this debate going anywhere lmao.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Either way our best option is to wait for staff input since I don't see this debate going anywhere lmao.

what I said earlier yes

 

[Derpmaster9000]

I do genuinely think if 'reaching the end of an infinite space' feats are this controversial then maybe this would be better suited for a staff thread. By no means is this something specific to Touhou. It doesn't seem like anybody here cares so much as to do so, but I could be wrong. Either way our best option is to wait for staff input since I don't see this debate going anywhere lmao.

It isn't just Touhou doing it that got on my nerves by the way. There are numerous verses on this site that aggravate me the same way. Some of them even franchises I adore, but it doesn't stop me from cringing whenever they pull stuff like this. Either way, again, I'm done here. I got nothing further to give. See you guys around.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Wasn't accusing you of any bias against Touhou, this seems like a problem that applies to multiple verses (GoW and Pokemon off the top of my head), which is why I suggested a staff thread. Regardless, see you around.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well, to me, as long as the series doesn't contradict it too explicitly (pokemon) then I'm ok with these statements.

 

[Malomtek]

We are told the distance is infinite. The ship can travel it and they are shown speeds able to tag the ship. Nothing contradicts the distance being infinite.

Muh visuals is not sufficient argument. If they have context that contradict the distance being infinite, that's an entirely different beast. But it seems it doesn't from what have been brought up.

But Touhou is a visual media, first and foremost, and to insist that the visuals be entirely juxtaposed with, and superseded by, the "lore" - or in this case some character statements - is ludicrous.

Infinite speed stuff is a bit more extraordinary than what can just be handwaved away with "cinematic time" or the like.

I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to Malomtek with that last bit. If he wants to insist that visuals take precedence over all else, the least he could do is go the full distance with it.

Statements and "lore" can give context to visuals, but they cannot be juxtaposed to visuals, or supersessionary to visuals.

If Sonic is stated to be FTL at top speed, and the visuals show him not necessarily being FTL at all times, but displaying visibly or calculably FTL speeds when it "counts" or "matters" (such as outrunning a planet-eating black hole in a game or gameplay), then of course I'd accept Sonic being FTL.

If a 2hu character is supposed to have moved towards the edge of some "infinite" area, and are therefore supposedly "infinitely fast", despite the visuals show their movement being incredibly finite, even accounting for "cinematic time" (unless, among other things, we assume those random UFO enemies just have "infinite speed" too for whatever), and they never otherwise display "infinite speed" when it would otherwise "count" or "matter", then I can't say that any given 2hu has "infinite speed", or that the area itself was ever truly "infinite" to begin with.

And @DarkDragonMedeus just commented on this issue in private, so here we go:

Well, Infinite in general can often be a hyperbole unless there's other details to suggest it isn't hyperbolic. But it's a case by case scenerio.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Anyway, for the purpose of keeping track, do we know who has accepted or disagreed with what?

Like for the spell cards/ability additions, I agree with almost of them, but am more than willing to agree with what Doge has accepted. I obviously agree with infinite speed minus the lasers, and the downgrades/removal of abilities presented as well.

I may have missed something but in my defense the OP was very long.