Touhou Revisions, Again (Sorry)

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Apologies if this is too soon for another Touhou CRT, I wasn't sure how much downtime was appropriate.

!! READ THIS FIRST !!

One major thing to take note of is that I’m treating spell card names as valid reasons to grant abilities, since as stated in PMiSS, a spell card’s meaning is equal to its power. So a spell card that mentions fire would give fire manipulation, a spell card that mentions water would give water manipulation, a spell card with curse in its name would give curse manipulation, so on and so forth.

Of course, this doesn’t outright equalize names to power; we need a statement that equalizes names to meanings, which we can then use to determine that a name carries the spell card’s power. Thankfully, ZUN does exactly that in the afterword of Imperishable Night.

So a name carries its meaning, and the meaning determines the spell card’s power.

We also have ZUN’s statements that spell card names are indicative of the specific abilities being used.

Yes, I know the "just a name, nothing more" part seems contradictory, but the fact of the matter remains that they're names, which as previously established carry the meaning and therefore the power of a spell card. It's also consistent with spell cards whose effects are clearly dependent on the name in quotations, such as Superhuman "Soaring En no Ozunu" relying on Ran calling upon En no Ozunu and Love Sign "Master Spark Frozen" being a cold-imbued version of the Master Spark. So both parts of a spell card name are valid when it comes to determining abilities.

Finally, as a bit of supporting evidence, we have Ran’s spell card Superhuman "Soaring En no Ozunu", which Marisa describes as boosting her abilities just by picturing the real En no Ozunu. This is important, as En no Ozunu is credited with the founding of Shugendō, a religion primarily concerned with finding supernatural power via religious training, not unlike Ran increasing her own power by using a spell card with said religion's founder in the name.

So when someone uses a spell card, they are in fact utilizing the people, legends, and concepts in the spell card’s name to accomplish effects directly tied to said people, legends, and concepts. This can also be used to confirm the existence of certain cosmological and theological concepts, but that's best saved for another time.

Now, one could argue that ‘power’ here is simply referring to the attack power or overall potency of the spell card. This is clearly contradicted by ZUN's statements above, but there are a few other reasons I feel the need to address; first is that a large number of spell cards have nothing to do with raw power, as many control time, create illusions, possess people, utilize curses, and so on and so forth. It would not make any sense to apply “attack power” to these abilities. But what about potency? That doesn’t necessarily imply the raw power of a thing.

Unfortunately, this would be inconsistent with how character abilities are portrayed, as well as the entire point of the spell card rules. We never see a character’s ability somehow become more powerful under spell card rules. In fact, we see the exact opposite; a good example of this is Cirno, who’s best non-spell card ice creation feat is dozens of times larger, and therefore dozens of times more potent, than her best spell card ice creation feat. Other examples include Sakuya’s time stop having a limit under spell card rules when she can do it indefinitely without them, and most infamously, Reimu’s Fantasy Nature being indefinite under normal circumstances, but being limited under spell card rules after being given a name.

There’s also the fact that spell cards, by design, are meant to impose limits on characters to prevent Gensokyo from falling into complete chaos and being destroyed. To say that a spell card’s meaning is its power in the attack power/potency sense would imply that spell cards are more powerful than nameless, and therefore meaningless attacks. This would mean that spell cards would actually increase the amount of destruction and bloodshed present in combat when they were designed to do the exact opposite.

In conclusion, the statements of “meaning = power” are referring to power in the abilities/hax sense, because every other interpretation directly contradicts canon and WoG. Names and meanings in Touhou give things form and function; they are not the equivalent of DBZ power levels.

This is incredibly important for most of the individual character abilities listed below, so if you have any objections, please at least acknowledge this.

Everyone
Everyone in the verse (except Renko) should get Resistance to Gravity Manipulation from Dr. Latency’s Freak Report, since when Maribel is recalling her vision of Gensokyo (confirmed by the fact that she’s seeing the Shining Needle Castle in this specific instance), Renko concludes that the gravitons there must have different properties. Essentially, the laws of gravity just work differently in Gensokyo, and everyone who lives there is unaffected by it.

If you’re wondering why this applies to Maribel, it’s because she’s physically visited Gensokyo and didn’t really seem to be affected. Renko has never been there with her, so she’s the only one excluded sadly (technically she went with Maribel to TORIFUNE but I can’t confidently say it has the same weird structure that Gensokyo does).

There’s also stuff about the world being made of different particles, and particles having different qualities (outside of gravitons), buuuut I know so little about quantum mechanics that I’m not gonna take the risk of making myself look like an idiot and try to quantify how that affects the structure of Gensokyo and the nature of everyone who lives there.

Infinite Speed, Again
If we beat this horse anymore it'll come back from the dead and become WBaWC's extra boss

First is one of Yukari's spell cards, which should have infinite speed based on its name alone. If this sounds dumb, read the several paragraphs of text and scans posted at the start of this CRT. Considering characters can dodge this attack, that would give them infinite speed. Easy.

Next is from UFO, where the Palanquin Ship flies to Hokkai. Hokkai is one of the corners of Makai, and Makai is stated to be infinite, so flying to Hokkai would be flying to the edge of an infinite space, obviously granting infinite speed.

Now, you could argue that this could just be using the definition of corner that refers to a remote or secretive location. This isn't possible; the kanji used to refer to corner in the original text (角) is only defined as the corner or edge of an object. So the conflicting English definition of the word corner doesn't apply here.

You could also argue that nobody scales to this since the Palanquin Ship made the trip to Hokkai and everyone else was just along for the ride. However, the first few stages of the game involve the protagonists catching up to the ship, so they should absolutely scale to its speed (which is infinite).

Assuming these are accepted, we would have 3 infinite speed feats to work with here instead of the 1 we're currently using, which should give the verse a solid infinite speed rating instead of just possibly.

Magicians
Every magician (Patchouli, Alice, Byakuren, and Narumi) should get Self Sustenance (Types 2 & 3) since PMiSS states that part of the process of becoming a magician includes learning “abandon food” magic, and Alice’s article states that she does not need to sleep.

More Time Stop Resistance
This kinda got shuffled off to the side in the infinite speed CRT so I’ll repost it here.

Avici, Higan, and Eientei are currently treated as timeless voids on the wiki. However, this is inaccurate, since nothing about these locations states or implies that time does not exist there. We simply have numerous statements that time does not flow. Therefore, because the flow of time is frozen, being able to move freely in these locations grants resistance to time stop.

It is also worth noting that Eientei can’t be a timeless void considering it contains an entire space-time continuum, which obviously needs time to exist in order to exist at all.

The following characters could move in the listed locations, so they should get Resistance to Time Stop. Note that Eientei’s spell of eternity that acts as a time stop was broken after Imperishable Night, so only characters who could move in Eientei prior to and during the events of that game are being considered here.

Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Remilia, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Tewi, Mokou, Reisen, Eirin, Komachi, Eiki, Tenshi, Kasen, and Kutaka. Let me know if I missed anyone.

I’m not giving Kaguya resistance based on moving within Eientei because she’s the one who stopped time in the first place. Mokou is included because she regularly escorts people to Eientei, and due to her repeated duels with Kaguya, it’s safe to assume she’s been there a few times even outside of escorts. Tewi is included because while she did break the spell over Eientei initially, it was reinstated afterwards.

Reimu
She has a lot more than I expected, honestly.

Dimensional Travel from WaHH, where she unconsciously brought her body to Avici, and Lotus Eaters, where she was apparently able to enter the Land of the Back Door without any outside help.

Holy Manipulation from being able to perform exorcisms and blessings.

Summoning. Do I even need to explain this? She already has an entire key dedicated to her summoning, yet the ability itself is nowhere to be found in her P&A.

All of these are already technically on her profile but not under her powers and abilities section for whatever reason, so I'm listing them here :v

Dream Manipulation from Dream Sign "Evil-Sealing Circle", Dream Sign "Duplex Barrier", and Dream Sign "Fine Line Fantasy" (the existence of the last one is dubiously canon since it's a contribution ZUN made to a doujin circle in 2004).

Light Manipulation from Light Spirit "Divine Spirit Orbs".

Illusion Creation in base from Spirit Sign "Hakurei Illusion" and Dream Battle "Illusionary Moon".

Limited Precognition from being able to perform accurate fortune telling.

Limited Power Nullification from being able to break through magical seals in Forbidden Scrollery. She also does it in Oriental Sacred Palace.

For her summoning key, she should get Creation and Metal Manipulation, as she can call upon Kanayamabiko no Mikoto to create palladium alloy (and likely other metals as well). Additionally, she should get Multiple Selves (Type 1) while channeling a god, since they co-inhabit her body and act as an alternate personality.

Finally, the manual for HRtP mentions she's trained in Martial Arts. Not sure what we should do for PC-98 exclusive abilities, to be honest.

Marisa
Should get Ice Manipulation from Love Sign "Master Spark Frozen".

Gravity Manipulation from Black Magic "Event Horizon".

Illusion Creation from Magic Sign "Illusion Star" and Star Sign "Satellite Illusion".

4th Wall Awareness for her and Flandre, since they both briefly discuss game mechanics in their EoSD fight. She also briefly mentions the 'last boss' in her MoF route.

For her stamina, her current justification ("Lives in the Forest of Magic, where the very air is poisonous, without problems") has nothing to do with stamina. It's a poison resistance feat. There may be better stamina feats, but her climbing youkai mountain should be a suitable replacement for now.

Lastly, I have no idea what hax this would give, but this exists for some reason. Why the **** did Great Fairy Wars of all things give Marisa the most OP spell card?

Rumia
Light Manipulation from Moon Sign "Moonlight Ray". Moonlight counts as light, right?

Cirno
Absolute Zero with Freeze Sign "Minus K".

Meiling
Plant Manipulation with Flower Sign "Gorgeous Sweet Flower" and Flower Sign "Selaginella 9".

Light Manipulation from Light Sign "Blossoming Light Orb" and Polar Light "Flower-Adorned Morning Star".

Illusion Creation with Illusion Sign "Imaginary Flower Yumekazura".

Patchouli
Poison Manipulation with Metal & Water Sign "Mercury Poison".

Sakuya
Should get Illusion Creation from Illusion Existence "Clock Corpse", Illusion Image "Luna Clock", Illusion Phantom "Jack the Ludo Bile", and many, many more spell cards that mention illusions.

Now for some downgrades.

Currently the justification for her Density Manipulation is her statement in chapter 35 of WaHH, where she claims she isn’t really stopping time, just moving so fast she becomes massless. The issue here should be obvious; the context of the scene is that she’s lying about the nature of her abilities so Reimu will stop suspecting her of kidnapping people, further backed up by the fact that she attempts to deflect blame to Byakuren moments later. So we can reasonably assume this is something she just came up with on the spot.

In fact, her profile literally mentions that just “being massless” is inconsistent with her ability’s portrayals, so I have no idea how it got accepted in the first place.

Next is her weapon creation, the justification for which is that she summons her knives out of thin air. This is blatantly wrong; the manual for PCB states that she has a limited supply and simply stops time to pick them all up.

TL;DR: We should get rid of her Density Manipulation and Weapon Creation.

Remilia
Curse Manipulation from Curse "Curse of Vlad Tepes"

Illusion Creation from Divine Art "Vampire Illusion".

Flandre
Fire Manipulation from Taboo "Lævateinn".

Alice
Darkness Manipulation from Darkness Sign "Foggy London Dolls".

Curse Manipulation from Curse Sign "Shanghai Doll" and Curse Sign "Straw Doll Kamikaze".

Light Manipulation from Evil Light "Devilry Light Ray".

Youmu
Fire Manipulation from Hell Fire Sword "Sudden Phantom Formation Slash of Karmic Wind".

Light Manipulation from Light Sign "Light Flash of the Netherworld".

Sound Manipulation from Celestial Star Sword "As the Silent Nirvana" cutting out all sound around her.

Life Manipulation from Four Births Sword "Echoes of the Inclemency of All Beings" (the term "Four Births" referring to viviparity, oviparity, spontaneous generation from water, and incarnation in Heaven).

Void Manipulation from Voidness Sword "Slash Clearing the Six Senses".

Ran
Illusion Creation from Shiki Brilliance "Princess Tenko -Illusion-" and Illusion God "Descent of Izuna-Gongen".

Yukari
Curse Manipulation and Dream Manipulation from Barrier "Curse of Dreams and Reality".

Darkness Manipulation from Barrier "Mesh of Light and Darkness".

Life Manipulation and Death Manipulation from Barrier "Boundary of Life and Death"

Void Manipulation from Border Sign "Boundary of Form and Emptiness".

Physics Manipulation from Border Sign "Boundary of Wave and Particle".

Telepathy from Luna Child still hearing Yukari's words in her heart even after she cut out all sound around her.

Limited Statistics Amplification and Statistics Reduction from BAiJR where she states that when one of her shikigami follows her orders they'll be empowered to the point of equaling Yukari herself, but if they go against her orders they'll be severely weakened.

Finally, a small AP addition: In CoLA, she's credited with the creation of constellations. This isn't technically necessary because it's nowhere near universal, but it never hurts to have justifications for cosmic level Touhou.

Mystia
Curse Manipulation from Moth Sign "Hawk Moth's Insect Curse".

Poison Manipulation from Deadly Toxin "Poisonous Moth's Dance in the Dark".

Keine
Time Manipulation from one of her spell cards reversing time. We already give people resistance to time manipulation from fighting Keine, so this should be pretty obvious. She should also get Resurrection with this ability, since it’s said to be able to return lost lives, albeit only temporarily.

Fire Manipulation from Great Fire "Flower of Edo".

Light Manipulation from Light Sign "Amaterasu".

Purification from “Total Purification”.

Mokou
Curse Manipulation from Limiting Edict "Curse of Tsuki-no-Iwakasa".

Possession from "Possessed by Phoenix".

I'd also like to change her image to this since I'm biased and don't like her design in ULiL. I'd remove the text if I knew how to :v

Hina
Fire Manipulation from Tragic Fate "Old Lady Ohgane's Fire".

Pain Manipulation from Wound Sign "Pain Flow".

Momiji
Disease Manipulation from Dog Sign "Rabies Bite".

Get ******* vaccinated Momiji

I'd also like to petition to change Momiji's image on her profile to this. We should probably use official art for minor characters, even if that official art is primarily background cameos.

Kanako
Dimensional Travel from Lotus Eaters, where it's heavily implied she went to the outside world to buy sake.

Suwako
Fire Manipulation from "Hellish Heat Geyser" and "Magma Amphibian".

Tenshi
Resistance to Pain Manipulation from Spirit Sign "State of Freedom from Worldly Thoughts".

Yamame
Poison Manipulation from Poison Sign "Japanese Foliage Spider", Poison Rain "Unsanitary Rain", and Poison Spider "Venom Web".

Byakuren
Light Manipulation from Light Magic "Star Maelstrom".

Goliath Doll
Its Tier 9 key should get removed. Alice was downgraded to tier 9 both on the basis that she can only reach tier 3/2 via her dolls, and that her body is very physically weak. The latter should not apply to the Goliath Doll given that it's something specific to magicians (and not even all of them at that). The former should just put her dolls at flat tier 3/2 since they're the entire reason Alice is keeping her high tiering in the first place.

Seiga
Fear Manipulation and Perception Manipulation from Demonify "Zouhuo Rumo" (Zouhuo Rumo being a psychological state that causes panic, discomfort, and hallucinations).

Possession from Possession "Corpse Tongji".

Mamizou
Darkness Manipulation from creating an aura of darkness around Miyoi.

Sealing from being able to trap people inside her pipe.

Junko
Light Manipulation from "Pure Light of the Palm" and "Exceedingly Majestic Pure Light".

Kasen
Immortality Negation (Type 4) from being able to crush spirits and remove them from the wheel of life (ie; the cycle of reincarnation).

Electricity Manipulation from Thunder Sign “Slow-Speed Mukou”.

Resistance to Poison Manipulation from being able to withstand inhaling sulfurous gas for extended periods of time.

As a little AP justification addition, here's Miko stating that Kasen possesses power far beyond her own.

Kutaka
Water Manipulation from Water Sign "Trial of Mikumari".

Light Manipulation from Light Sign "Trial of Miwatashi".

Also we can replace her picture with this now.

I am 100% positive I missed a spell card name that grants an ability given that I skimmed most of the spell card sections for characters, so feel free to suggest any you feel are missing.

I'd like to say this will be my last Touhou CRT for a while, but we all know that'll never happen :v

---

See you all in the tier 1 revisions!

 

[Shmooply]

Following, obviously.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Considering that I helped with finding one or two of these things, I agree with all of the listed above.

Every day is 2hu day.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

See you all in the tier 1 revisions!

sshhhh

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

See you all in the tier 1 revisions!

10D touhou lets go

Can we do Digimon vs Touhou haha

Anyways, following, and also agree with all of this. They're all explained well enough and are reasonable revisions.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Spell Card stuff

I mostly agree with this, like i posted in the previous CRT marisa relates it to natural phenomena, but we should likely avoid ones that just have zero context like "servant sign" since it isn't necessarily related to phenomena in general, it's explained as this:

"A 護法天童 / gohou-tendou (or 護法童子 / gohou-douji) is a spiritual entity that likewise defends Buddhist law; in addition, the term can refer to oni or other such spirits employed as servants by an onmyoudou practitioner."

This is just a quick little thing to note I still agree with the main basis.

Everyone in the verse (except Renko) should get Resistance to Gravity Manipulation from Dr. Latency’s Freak Report, since when Maribel is recalling her vision of Gensokyo (confirmed by the fact that she’s seeing the Shining Needle Castle in this specific instance), Renko concludes that the gravitons there must have different properties. Essentially, the laws of gravity just work differently in Gensokyo, and everyone who lives there is unaffected by it.

Ehhh, I'll put myself as neutral on this one, I just think this helps cosmologically define how brane's work inverse, isn't really an ability thing since normal world gravitational effects like marisa's "Event Horizon" still work on the characters.

Infinite speed part 2:electreic boogaloo

-They have time to dodge the first one which iirc in standards does not qualify as infinite. (Plus we kinda see in the same video different timestamp they're not instant persay.)

-The second one is fine.

Magicians

This stuff is good.

Time stop resistance

This is pretty blatant. So I agree.

Keine Purification from “Total Purification”.

Seems to be more like environmental destruction or Earth manipulation since it's the reconstruction of the nature . Doesn't seem to follow purification like lunarians.

Everything else seems okay at first glance.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah, everything seems fine

The only things that might be take a long time to be concluded are the further time stop resistance and infinite speed

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Also another thing: We should change the front image of Touhou verse page to something official

 

[Malomtek]

Was about to post a thread in the general only to see this

Everyone
Everyone in the verse (except Renko) should get Resistance to Gravity Manipulation from Dr. Latency’s Freak Report, since when Maribel is recalling her vision of Gensokyo (confirmed by the fact that she’s seeing the Shining Needle Castle in this specific instance), Renko concludes that the gravitons there must have different properties. Essentially, the laws of gravity just work differently in Gensokyo, and everyone who lives there is unaffected by it.

If you’re wondering why this applies to Maribel, it’s because she’s physically visited Gensokyo and didn’t really seem to be affected. Renko has never been there with her, so she’s the only one excluded sadly (technically she went with Maribel to TORIFUNE but I can’t confidently say it has the same weird structure that Gensokyo does).

There’s also stuff about the world being made of different particles, and particles having different qualities (outside of gravitons), buuuut I know so little about quantum mechanics that I’m not gonna take the risk of making myself look like an idiot and try to quantify how that affects the structure of Gensokyo and the nature of everyone who lives there.

Just because the gravity of some place is weird or whatever doesn't mean any sort of particular resistance to gravity manipulation.

We see what Gensokyo is like. Aside from the presence of magic and mystical stuff, it really doesn't operate in any way differently from the outside "real" world.

Infinite Speed, Again
If we beat this horse anymore it'll come back from the dead and become WBaWC's extra boss

First is one of Yukari's spell cards, which should have infinite speed based on its name alone. If this sounds dumb, read the several paragraphs of text and scans posted at the start of this CRT. Considering characters can dodge this attack, that would give them infinite speed. Easy.

"then [the lasers] silently expand"
"the expanded lasers can't be blocked or grazed"

The infiniteness only refers to the expansion of the lasers, not the speed of the lasers themselves.

Also what Guardian_Doge said: "-They have time to dodge the first one which iirc in standards does not qualify as infinite. (Plus we kinda see in the same video different timestamp they're not instant persay.)"

Next is from UFO, where the Palanquin Ship flies to Hokkai. Hokkai is one of the corners of Makai, and Makai is stated to be infinite, so flying to Hokkai would be flying to the edge of an infinite space, obviously granting infinite speed.

Now, you could argue that this could just be using the definition of corner that refers to a remote or secretive location. This isn't possible; the kanji used to refer to corner in the original text (角) is only defined as the corner or edge of an object. So the conflicting English definition of the word corner doesn't apply here.

You could also argue that nobody scales to this since the Palanquin Ship made the trip to Hokkai and everyone else was just along for the ride. However, the first few stages of the game involve the protagonists catching up to the ship, so they should absolutely scale to its speed (which is infinite).

Assuming these are accepted, we would have 3 infinite speed feats to work with here instead of the 1 we're currently using, which should give the verse a solid infinite speed rating instead of just possibly.

You're not explaining how Marisa caught up to the ship, and you seem to be deliberately keeping that part vague in order to make the feat seem more solid than it really is. For all we know, Marisa was lying in wait at a specific area, and then just jumped on the ship at a point when it slowed down for a bit.

And, to be quite frank, all this "infinite speed Touhou" garble is nothing more than pretending clear and obvious outliers are legitimate feats anyway.

As for the entire gobbledygook about spell name meanings:

Finally, as a bit of supporting evidence, we have Ran’s spell card Superhuman "Soaring En no Ozunu", which Marisa describes as boosting her abilities just by picturing the real En no Ozunu. This is important, as En no Ozunu is credited with the founding of Shugendō, a religion primarily concerned with finding supernatural power via religious training, not unlike Ran increasing her own power by using a spell card with said religion's founder in the name.

Funnily enough, this alone proves that spell card names are not necessarily to be interpreted literally, or in some manner that automatically grants a preferred character new abilities. We need to go by how the spell cards are actually described to work, not just some poetic and flashy titles for them. And no, a spell card's "genre", whatever that may mean, doesn't necessarily amount to anything in particular either, and fits into the "poetic title" category of things.

And honestly, interpreting the poetic title of something as a literal description of its nature and ability, or with a very disproportionately generous interpretation of its nature and ability, is stupid in and of itself.

There's also the fact that how the spell cards are actually described to work is quite vague in and of themselves, and could mean any number of things. I certainly don't know how "the player can't move any closer or further away from a certain point" particularly equates to gravity manipulation, especially since that's not how black holes or event horizons work.

There's also also the fact that many of these spell cards don't have any descriptions at all, and so don't really amount to anything in particular in indexing terms beyond a new pattern of bullet hell. I certainly don't know how a generic "Curse Sign" with a vague "Curse of Vlad Tepes" is representative of a new ability. What is this "curse of Vlad Tepes"? Is Remilia drawing on the power of Vlad Tepes? Is Remilia trying to put some "impalement curse" on someone? Is Remilia attempting to turn her opponent into a Vampire? A Romanian? An Ottoman Turk?

 

[Promestein]

Everyone in the verse (except Renko) should get Resistance to Gravity Manipulation from Dr. Latency’s Freak Report, since when Maribel is recalling her vision of Gensokyo (confirmed by the fact that she’s seeing the Shining Needle Castle in this specific instance), Renko concludes that the gravitons there must have different properties. Essentially, the laws of gravity just work differently in Gensokyo, and everyone who lives there is unaffected by it.

This is a maybe and refers purely to the inchling castle, which is supernaturally flipped by Seija. No.

I think spellcard names are way too little to go off of regardless of what's been said about them. We don't know anything in most cases.

 

[Malomtek]

And since infinite speed Touhou has been brought up again, I want to go over the reason we have "possibly Infinite" on their profiles again.

The example: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reimu_Hakurei

"Flew across Kaguya's infinite corridor in a short period of time"

Now, I thank the people doing this for doing the hard work for me, because their own scans debunk this statement.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Barrier_Team%27s_Scenario

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Scarlet_Team%27s_Scenario

Eirin Yagokoro EXITS
Yukari	この廊下はおかしいわ。 いくらなんでもこんなに長い筈がない。	This corridor is strange. It can't possibly be this long.
Reimu	外が見たことが無い世界になってる！	The outside's turned into some world I've never seen!
Reimu	長い廊下ももう終った見たいね そろそろ観念したらどう？	It looks like that long corridor has ended now. How about giving up soon?

Eirin	ここは偽の月と地上の間。 さっきの永い廊下は、偽の月と地上を 結ぶ偽物の通路。 貴方達は偽満月が生み出した幻像に 騙されてここまで来たのよ。	This place is between the false moon and the Earth. That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two. You two were fooled by an illusion that the false full moon produced, and came here.

Eirin	そう、外よ。 貴方達は永い廊下に導かれてここまで来た。 どう？ 外の空気は。	Yes, the outside. You were led through that eternal corridor, and came here. So, how's the air outside?

	Eirin Yagokoro EXITS
Sakuya	でも、さっきから大分進んでいるけど……。 この廊下、終わりが見えません！	We've gone so far by now, but... I can't see an end to this corridor!
Sakuya	廊下は終ったみたいだけど、 ここは一体……。	It looks like the corridor has ended, but where on earth is this...?

None of the 2hus involved actually crossed an infinite distance. They traversed the corridor only up until they got to a space of indeterminate distance between the Earth and the "false Moon". Unless we're supposed to believe that there was actually an infinite distance between the Earth and the "false moon", or that there was somehow infinite space already inside the Eientei estate, this is proof positive they didn't cross an infinite space.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I have at least some responses, but first let me add that if you want to downgrade infinite speed, you need to make your own downgrade thread after this, Mal. Right now, bringing up an already accepted feat is a clear example of derailing. Please refrain from doing that.

 

[Malomtek]

I have at least some responses, but first let me add that if you want to downgrade infinite speed, you need to make your own downgrade thread after this, Mal. Right now, bringing up an already accepted feat is a clear example of derailing. Please refrain from doing that.

The literal third section of the OP brought up infinite speed and brought up two other supposed feats in an attempt to "support" it. This is entirely relevant to the thread at large, and I'm not going to clog up the content revision board with a downgrade thread right after this thread, when this thread alone is a sufficient enough platform to post what I have to. Don't try to play "rules lawyer" now.

 

[Pixy]

This is a maybe and refers purely to the inchling castle, which is supernaturally flipped by Seija. No.

Nope it flip by her own oni mallet isn't it ?
it happen since shinmy still doesn't born yet probably her old gen

here

 

[Promestein]

It doesn't matter why it flipped, it's supernaturally flipped, and they theorize that gravitons are different when they see that and just that

 

[Malomtek]

Avici, Higan, and Eientei are currently treated as timeless voids on the wiki. However, this is inaccurate, since nothing about these locations states or implies that time does not exist there. We simply have numerous statements that time does not flow. Therefore, because the flow of time is frozen, being able to move freely in these locations grants resistance to time stop.

I'm pretty sure that's not how any of this works, and that a character has to be resisting "active" distortions of time get time manipulation resistance in any case, not just "passive" dimensional background stuff.

Or, in other words, moving in a realm with stopped time is just as meaningful resistance-wise as moving in a timeless voice is speed-wise. That is, none.

And that's assuming that "time does not flow" automatically equates to time stop in the cases of Avici, Higan, and Eientei, which is absurd because we don't see anything being "frozen in time" in those realms. Indeed, time, or at least its appearance, seems to work pretty normally in Avici, Higan, and Eientei.

Those last two scans you linked are pretty instructive though, because "it is as though this forest has taken on the illusion of existing outside the flow of time and history" is the very opposite of a direct statement of time not flowing in Eientei, and that entire "spell of eternity" scan implies that Kaguya was actively ******* with the "history" and types of changes that occur in Eientei, i.e. not time per se, and that she undid it herself when "faced with the charms of Earth", meaning that it is irrelevant either way in describing the properties of the Eientei estate. And if we were to assume that Kaguya was messing with time in itself, then it establishes the exact opposite of time not flowing in Eientei, especially by the time the protagonists arrive there.

 

[Malomtek]

However

Magicians
Every magician (Patchouli, Alice, Byakuren, and Narumi) should get Self Sustenance (Types 2 & 3) since PMiSS states that part of the process of becoming a magician includes learning “abandon food” magic, and Alice’s article states that she does not need to sleep.

This is fine, though.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I’ll take a look at what spellcards can possibly be applied when I get home.

 

[Mobi2]

I'll comment on the other portions of the thread later, but light manipulation should be fine for Reimu, but I'd use something other than the name of the spell card. Fantasy seal itself has been stated to be light bullets on 2 occasions.


(also side note, but if any of you need actual raw scans I've bought every Touhou book besides the strange creators of outer world magazines Idk why those are so expensive to buy).

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I certainly don't know how "the player can't move any closer or further away from a certain point" particularly equates to gravity manipulation, especially since that's not how black holes or event horizons work.

So just in quick response to this, the concept is how: an event horizon's gravitational pull is so strong it can't be escaped, so marisa equates to that by making it so X character can't escape its pull either via forward or backward.

Other than that I took a quick glance, these should be the spellcards that can be applied face value:

Fire Manipulation from Taboo "Lævateinn"
Ice Manipulation from Love Sign "Master Spark Frozen"
Gravity Manipulation from Black Magic "Event Horizon"
Light Manipulation from Moon Sign "Moonlight Ray"
Plant Manipulation with Flower Sign "Gorgeous Sweet Flower" and Flower Sign "Selaginella 9".

(plant manip is fine because yuuka also uses flower sign and directly uses flowers so) https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View/Spell_Cards/Yuuka_Kazami#Spell_Card_Lv2

Light Manipulation from Light Sign "Blossoming Light Orb" and Polar Light "Flower-Adorned Morning Star". (kinda directly creating light)
Poison Manipulation with Metal & Water Sign "Mercury Poison".
Illusion Creation from Illusion Existence "Clock Corpse", Illusion Image "Luna Clock", Illusion Phantom "Jack the Ludo Bile", and many, many more spell cards that mention illusions. (she does this directly here the illusion being the fireballs)
Darkness Manipulation from Darkness Sign "Foggy London Dolls".
Light Manipulation from Evil Light "Devilry Light Ray"
Curse Manipulation and Dream Manipulation from Barrier "Curse of Dreams and Reality".
Darkness Manipulation from Barrier "Mesh of Light and Darkness".
Life Manipulation and Death Manipulation from Barrier "Boundary of Life and Death"
Void Manipulation from Border Sign "Boundary of Form and Emptiness".
Physics Manipulation from Border Sign "Boundary of Wave and Particle".
Poison Manipulation from Deadly Toxin "Poisonous Moth's Dance in the Dark".
Possession from "Possessed by Phoenix".
Disease Manipulation from Dog Sign "Rabies Bite".
Resistance to Pain Manipulation from Spirit Sign "State of Freedom from Worldly Thoughts".
Fire Manipulation from "Hellish Heat Geyser" and "Magma Amphibian".
Poison Manipulation from Poison Sign "Japanese Foliage Spider", Poison Rain "Unsanitary Rain", and Poison Spider "Venom Web". (self explanatory because well her power IS creating diseases and poisons.)
Electricity Manipulation from Thunder Sign “Slow-Speed Mukou”.
Light Manipulation from Light Magic "Star Maelstrom".

Ones that shouldn't apply:

Dream Manipulation from Dream Sign "Evil-Sealing Circle", Dream Sign "Duplex Barrier", and Dream Sign "Fine Line Fantasy"
Light Manipulation from Light Spirit "Divine Spirit Orbs"
.Illusion Creation in base from Spirit Sign "Hakurei Illusion" and Dream Battle "Illusionary Moon"
Illusion Creation from Magic Sign "Illusion Star" and Star Sign "Satellite Illusion".
Absolute Zero with Freeze Sign "Minus K". (this one needs to be elaborated on)
Illusion Creation with Illusion Sign "Imaginary Flower Yumekazura". (needs more context)
Curse Manipulation from Curse "Curse of Vlad Tepes"
Illusion Creation from Divine Art "Vampire Illusion".
Curse Manipulation from Curse Sign "Shanghai Doll" and Curse Sign "Straw Doll Kamikaze".
All of youmus:
Fire Manipulation from Hell Fire Sword "Sudden Phantom Formation Slash of Karmic Wind".
Light Manipulation from Light Sign "Light Flash of the Netherworld".
Sound Manipulation from Celestial Star Sword "As the Silent Nirvana" cutting out all sound around her.
Life Manipulation from Four Births Sword "Echoes of the Inclemency of All Beings" (the term "Four Births" referring to viviparity, oviparity, spontaneous generation from water, and incarnation in Heaven).
Void Manipulation from Voidness Sword "Slash Clearing the Six Senses"
Curse Manipulation from Moth Sign "Hawk Moth's Insect Curse".
Illusion Creation from Shiki Brilliance "Princess Tenko -Illusion-" and Illusion God "Descent of Izuna-Gongen".
Purification from “Total Purification”.
Fire Manipulation from Great Fire "Flower of Edo"
Curse Manipulation from Limiting Edict "Curse of Tsuki-no-Iwakasa".
Fire Manipulation from Tragic Fate "Old Lady Ohgane's Fire".
Pain Manipulation from Wound Sign "Pain Flow".
Fear Manipulation and Perception Manipulation from Demonify "Zouhuo Rumo" (Zouhuo Rumo being a psychological state that causes panic, discomfort, and hallucinations).
Light Manipulation from "Pure Light of the Palm" and "Exceedingly Majestic Pure Light".

That's what I gathered, I know I could've formatted it a lot better but I'm working on a drawing and I need sleep, so I'll check on this in the morning.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I can't link images on mobile and therefore can't provide arguments for everything so I'll tackle what I can. I hope that's alright with everybody.

You're not explaining how Marisa caught up to the ship, and you seem to be deliberately keeping that part vague in order to make the feat seem more solid than it really is. For all we know, Marisa was lying in wait at a specific area, and then just jumped on the ship at a point when it slowed down for a bit.

Please do not accuse anyone of deliberately hiding or withholding information. It's extremely rude of you to openly assume foul play on someone's part like that. It's quite the accusation.

Anyway here we can see the Marisa flying throughout the whole level, even during the boss fight. She then states that she's caught up to the ship.

And here we can see her catch up to the ship, fly besides it, fly directly over it, and even go through the boss fight while keeping up with it.

Minamitsu herself states during stage 4 with Marisa that they're "already under way" in regards to Marisa asking about the ship going to Hokkai, meaning it crossed into Makai and later would finish during that timeframe and after the stage. Why is this important?

It is important because in Reimu and Sanae's routes, we get confirmation from Minamitsu that the ship itself is on autopilot. She even essentially states in the Sanae route that despite being captain, she doesn't get to do much anymore due to the autopilot.

This pretty much confirms that the ship isn't being slowed or hastened by any pilot or captain operating it, which supports that the cast caught up to a consistently infinite speed ship. Yes, we don't explicitly get confirmation that Minamitsu was never piloting, but her dialogue heavily implies that she doesn't get to actually Captain the ship anymore, or at least not very often at all. The comparison to a bullet train implies that she mainly watches to make sure nothing goes wrong.

Seems fairly explicit to me, since the only speed feat the ship has is reaching Makai and Hokkai while under autopilot. This is the speed that the main characters reached, and they even had spell card battles while going at these speeds.

Also, apologies for not having screenshots or scans. Again, I can't send any on mobile, so I can only hope that somebody uploads the scans referenced above.

And, to be quite frank, all this "infinite speed Touhou" garble is nothing more than pretending clear and obvious outliers are legitimate feats anyway.

If every ounce of proof that keeps piling on is just an outlier in your mind, then providing sources to you feels like it's in vain. Nothing we show you will convince you otherwise, no matter how much we bring.

One should come into a discussion like this with at least a somewhat open mind and a willingness to change their thoughts if properly convinced. Arguing against it is one thing, but openly and constantly dismissing all evidence as garble and outliers hurts any chance for legitmate discussion, Mal. Surely, you realize that.

 

[Orioreeem]

Disagree with giving abilities based on the name. This is really reaching it when we don't know much about them, not to mention Yukari's "Infinite superspeed flying object" sounds really hyperbolic.
Separate thread for speed downgrade should be made instead of clogging this one that will become pretty long considering how long the op already is.

 

[Pixy]

I can't link images on mobile and therefore can't provide arguments for everything so I'll tackle what I can. I hope that's alright with everybody.


Please do not accuse anyone of deliberately hiding or withholding information. It's extremely rude of you to openly assume foul play on someone's part like that. It's quite the accusation.

Anyway here we can see the Marisa flying throughout the whole level, even during the boss fight. She then states that she's caught up to the ship.

And here we can see her catch up to the ship, fly besides it, fly directly over it, and even go through the boss fight while keeping up with it.

Minamitsu herself states during stage 4 with Marisa that they're "already under way" in regards to Marisa asking about the ship going to Hokkai, meaning it crossed into Makai and later would finish during that timeframe and after the stage. Why is this important?

It is important because in Reimu and Sanae's routes, we get confirmation from Minamitsu that the ship itself is on autopilot. She even essentially states in the Sanae route that despite being captain, she doesn't get to do much anymore due to the autopilot.

This pretty much confirms that the ship isn't being slowed or hastened by any pilot or captain operating it, which supports that the cast caught up to a consistently infinite speed ship. Yes, we don't explicitly get confirmation that Minamitsu was never piloting, but her dialogue heavily implies that she doesn't get to actually Captain the ship anymore, or at least not very often at all. The comparison to a bullet train implies that she mainly watches to make sure nothing goes wrong.

Seems fairly explicit to me, since the only speed feat the ship has is reaching Makai and Hokkai while under autopilot. This is the speed that the main characters reached, and they even had spell card battles while going at these speeds.

Also, apologies for not having screenshots or scans. Again, I can't send any on mobile, so I can only hope that somebody uploads the scans referenced above.



If every ounce of proof that keeps piling on is just an outlier in your mind, then providing sources to you feels like it's in vain. Nothing we show you will convince you otherwise, no matter how much we bring.

One should come into a discussion like this with at least a somewhat open mind and a willingness to change their thoughts if properly convinced. Arguing against it is one thing, but openly and constantly dismissing all evidence as garble and outliers hurts any chance for legitmate discussion, Mal. Surely, you realize that.

here

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well, I mostly agree with what the OP is saying, although for the Spell Cards we should go part by part to see who could be used to apply the abilities, by either names, description or visuals. That being said, I agree with @Guardian_Doge's list of SCs that apply and not apply.

For the rest, wellll...

Gravity resistance shouldn't apply for everyone, as living with a different set of gravitational laws is not the same as being capable of resist your gravity being altered.

Magician's stuff seems fine.

Sakuya's stuff also looks good.

The infinite part, well, I kinda see it work. I remember that part of the game dodging constantly the lasers, but I'll remain somewhat neutral on that. However the other stuff looks good.

Time Stop resistance also looks fine.

Lastly.

Purification from “Total Purification”.

This seems mostly related with Keine's history eating, so Purification here doesn't seem as literal purification. However, as is apparently reconstructing the world via this, I think it could be mostly something like Reality Warping.

Edit: One extra not-so-related thing. Shouldn't Yukari have Law Manipulation as she was capable of altering the rules of Perfect Possession, plus one of her Spell Cards messing with SCR in order to change a non-lethal danmaku into lethal danmaku?

 

[Malomtek]

So just in quick response to this, the concept is how: an event horizon's gravitational pull is so strong it can't be escaped, so marisa equates to that by making it so X character can't escape its pull either via forward or backward.

But that's still not how event horizons work. Event horizons always pull you in towards a singularity. They don't stick you in some specific "boundary zone" where you can't even move towards the singularity. What Marisa is doing amounts to a weird variety of space manipulation, if anything.

Anyway here we can see the Marisa flying throughout the whole level, even during the boss fight. She then states that she's caught up to the ship.

In the first fifteen seconds of that linked video, we see Marisa initially moving fast over some road on the ground, then slowing down as the road gets further and further obscured by cloud cover. It is the same case when Marisa finally catches up to the ship, the only difference being that the deacceleration occurs after nine seconds.

She, and the ship by extension, are clearly moving at a finite speed, otherwise that road on the ground would barely even be blur. That is, unless you want me to believe that even that portion of the road somehow had infinite length.

There's also the fact that neither of them seem to be in Makai in general yet, let alone one of its corners. Makai/Hokkai consistently looks completely differently from the realm with the road in it.

"But what about infinite Makai-"

Doesn't matter. We see Marisa and the ship visibly moving at finite speeds, and that's what counts.

 

[Pixy]

But that's still not how event horizons work. Event horizons always pull you in towards a singularity. They don't stick you in some specific "boundary zone" where you can't even move towards the singularity. What Marisa is doing amounts to a weird variety of space manipulation, if anything.


In the first fifteen seconds of that linked video, we see Marisa initially moving fast over some road on the ground, then slowing down as the road gets further and further obscured by cloud cover. It is the same case when Marisa finally catches up to the ship, the only difference being that the deacceleration occurs after nine seconds.

She, and the ship by extension, are clearly moving at a finite speed, otherwise that road on the ground would barely even be blur. That is, unless you want me to believe that even that portion of the road somehow had infinite length.

There's also the fact that neither of them seem to be in Makai in general yet, let alone one of its corners. Makai/Hokkai consistently looks completely differently from the realm with the road in it.

"But what about infinite Makai-"

Doesn't matter. We see Marisa and the ship visibly moving at finite speeds, and that's what counts.

You gonna say Marisa and the ship can move to A corner of the infinite area of Makai with finite speed ? seem bruh for me

 

[Malomtek]

You gonna say Marisa and the ship can move to A corner of the infinite area of Makai with finite speed ? seem bruh for me

If they were somehow able to get to a corner of the "infinite area" of Makai with what is visibly finite speed, then it only proves that Makai doesn't actually have an "infinite area", and that any description of it's "infinity" is just hyperbolic figurative speech.

Or, to re-summarize:

"But what about infinite Makai-"

Doesn't matter. We see Marisa and the ship visibly moving at finite speeds, and that's what counts.

 

[Pixy]

If they were somehow able to get to a corner of the "infinite area" of Makai with what is visibly finite speed, then it only proves that Makai doesn't actually have an "infinite area", and that any description of it's "infinity" is just hyperbolic figurative speech.

I mean You can't just judge they're infinite or not by just said We see Marisa and the ship visibly moving at finite speeds
or You have to explain how much fast we see with our eyes to judge they're infinite

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

If they were somehow able to get to a corner of the "infinite area" of Makai with what is visibly finite speed, then it only proves that Makai doesn't actually have an "infinite area", and that any description of it's "infinity" is just hyperbolic figurative speech.

You're talking about infinite speed like it's a real-life occurence that we can directly compare to fiction. We can't do that. In fact, visualizing infinite distance is essentially impossible, so narrative is key here.

In the given context, the ship is autopiloting towards Hokkai, with Minamitsu doing nothing as captain. The narrative tells us multiple times in almost every playthrough that Makai is infinite, and Hokkai is at the edge. Then the ship reaches said destination in an unspecific timeframe.

We never see the outside of the ship during its travel into and through Makai to compare if it's going any faster than previously, but we know that the ship has been on autopilot the whole, as stated by its own captain that "doesn't really do much these days." The ship and its captain's lack of piloting is also given a direct comparison to bullet trains.

Want to know how bullet trains work? They move at their top speed throughout the trip to get there quickly, and the "driver" doesn't even actually pilot it. They just makes sure nothing gets in the way. This comparison supports the ship going quickly while Minamitsu simply oversees it.

Look, infinite speed can't be compared to real life because we've never truly seen such a thing. However, the narrative statements, the narrative evidence, and the stated comparisons, all point towards the ship being at top speed. We have no exact timeframe for how long it took, so you can't necessarily disprove that the speed we see, isn't the speed it used to cross infinity. In fact, most of the narrative supports that it is.

Hell, it could look slower because we as the players need to be able to visually see what's happening. By your logic of, "it looks slow therefore it isn't fast," 90% of fiction would get downgraded below "faster than the eye can see," and we know that wouldn't be correct at all.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

But that's still not how event horizons work. Event horizons always pull you in towards a singularity. They don't stick you in some specific "boundary zone" where you can't even move towards the singularity. What Marisa is doing amounts to a weird variety of space manipulation, if anything.

Well let’s look at what Wikipedia defines it as:

In astrophysics, an event horizon is a boundary beyond which events cannot affect an observer. The term was coined by Wolfgang Rindler in the 1950s.[1]

In 1784, John Michell proposed that in the vicinity of compact massive objects, gravity can be strong enough that even light cannot escape. At that time, the Newtonian theory of gravitation and the so-called corpuscular theory of light were dominant. In these theories, if the escape velocity of the gravitational influence of a massive object exceeds the speed of light, then light originating inside or from it can escape temporarily but will return.

And let’s look if event horizons do in fact make boundaries even if not completely physical:

The boundary of a black hole is its event horizon. It’s not a surface in the usual sense—there’s no physical barrier—but it’s very much a real thing. Outside the horizon, an object can escape the black hole’s gravitational pull if it’s moving sufficiently fast; inside, it would need to move faster than light-speed, something forbidden by the laws of nature.

I think this fits the representation well, after all Touhou character are ftl, so them moving away is consistent.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hello there! Was invited to the thread, can I call myself a touhou expert ovo

I agree primarily with Guardian_Doge.

 

[Shmooply]

can I call myself a touhou expert ovo

Which little girl in a dress is your favorite. Answer now.

Jokes aside, I agree with Doge.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Which little girl in a dress is your favorite. Answer now.

Patchouli

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

How about the spellcards abilities addition? @Guardian_Doge

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

WoG is fine for the spellcards but we still have to check with some abilities especially obscure or ones that is hard to determine properly. since some names can be fancy but still deliver something that doesn't really match it.

Guardian Doge seems to have said things I'm concerned about and agree with his idea for spellcard and abilities to be given for them so I agree with him on this

the infinite speed is fine as supporting evidence except for the spellcard ones

The gravity resistance seems a bit unconvincing for me since in order to gain resistance to gravity manip someone must be directly influencing you with the ability and not just having different or irregular gravity as a nature of the place you're visiting it. unless it's something like actively influencing the gravity and not something that happens naturally in that world.

Magicians self sustenance and time resistance is solid enough


wish I have fujiwarayesmokous time and energy to make CRT after CRT

 

[Malomtek]

I mean You can't just judge they're infinite or not by just said We see Marisa and the ship visibly moving at finite speeds
or You have to explain how much fast we see with our eyes to judge they're infinite

I already explained that:

In the first fifteen seconds of that linked video, we see Marisa initially moving fast over some road on the ground, then slowing down as the road gets further and further obscured by cloud cover. It is the same case when Marisa finally catches up to the ship, the only difference being that the deacceleration occurs after nine seconds.

She, and the ship by extension, are clearly moving at a finite speed, otherwise that road on the ground would barely even be blur. That is, unless you want me to believe that even that portion of the road somehow had infinite length.

You're talking about infinite speed like it's a real-life occurence that we can directly compare to fiction. We can't do that. In fact, visualizing infinite distance is essentially impossible, so narrative is key here.

This is little more than an attempt to dance around the clear visuals as portrayed in the stage.

We see when characters can move faster than light in fiction, because they show FTL feats. They show feats that are either clearly faster than light, or can be calced as such. We would know when a character moves at an "infinite" speed, because he would be shown zipping towards the edge of an infinite universe, or some other feat of that kind, with everything around him being nothing more than a blur at most.

We see how Marisa and the ship move, and it's so relatively slow that the road they're flying over is still clearly distinguishable. That doesn't at all suggests "infinite speed" to me.

Trying to put something as subjective as "the narrative" over the very clear visuals of the stage's progression is a neat rhetorical trick, but it won't work here. I could just as easily say that all references to Makai's "infinite area" are just nonsense that should be ignored, because that's what "the narrative" suggests. Self-serving interpretations of "the narrative" don't mean anything in a character indexing sense, for pretty much the same reasons we don't take "essence of the character" arguments seriously.

Well let’s look at what Wikipedia defines it as:
And let’s look if event horizons do in fact make boundaries even if not completely physical:
I think this fits the representation well, after all Touhou character are ftl, so them moving away is consistent.

None of that really contradicts anything I've said. Even your own quotes say that light that "temporarily escapes" the black hole will eventually be pulled back inside.

Event horizons don't work like some "border zones" that "stick" you in some region that you can't move away or even towards the singularity from. If you get stuck in a black hole's event horizon, you're either moving towards the singularity because you're not FTL, or moving away from the singularity because you are FTL. It's either one or the other, but not both, because that's how event horizons work.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

None of that really contradicts anything I've said. Even your own quotes say that light that "temporarily escapes" the black hole will eventually be pulled back inside.

Things that exceed the speed of light eventually get pulled back into the border zone that’s the point, on the contrary none of what you’re saying really disproves the application of what we’re saying.

Event horizons don't work like some "border zones" that "stick" you in some region that you can't move away or even towards the singularity from. If you get stuck in a black hole's event horizon, you're either moving towards the singularity because you're not FTL, or moving away from the singularity because you are FTL. It's either one or the other, but not both, because that's how event horizons work.

Then you did not read the source(s) because this is a pretty blatant representation, because they CAN move just not too far or forward because
•they’re fast enough to escape the centre of the pull, but
•due to the gameplay and description of the spellcard cannot escape the entire event horizon.

I don’t know why we’re making this difficult really, Marisa’s spellcard that can pull planets isn’t exactly spatial manipulation, it’s just a basic use of gravity. It isn’t really hard to just apply a singular hax mal.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

We would know when a character moves at an "infinite" speed, because he would be shown zipping towards the edge of an infinite universe, or some other feat of that kind, with everything around him being nothing more than a blur at most.

You realize that Crossing infinity can still be achieved over different timeframes, right? It doesn't have to specifically happen nearly instantaneously. Your argument is in itself a fallacy that insists an infinite speed feat has to look and act a certain way.

We see how Marisa and the ship move, and it's so relatively slow that the road they're flying over is still clearly distinguishable. That doesn't at all suggests "infinite speed" to me.

This is still an argument from incredulity and I will be ignoring it moving forward as you're being circular with your arguments. The narrative says otherwise, which brings me to:

Trying to put something as subjective as "the narrative" over the very clear visuals of the stage's progression is a neat rhetorical trick, but it won't work here. I could just as easily say that all references to Makai's "infinite area" are just nonsense that should be ignored, because that's what "the narrative" suggests. Self-serving interpretations of "the narrative" don't mean anything in a character indexing sense, for pretty much the same reasons we don't take "essence of the character" arguments seriously.

You're comparing two completely different situations to on another. Yet another fallacy.

This is Makai, Hokkai, and the ship's first appearance in the series (and Makai's in the new canon). We are told it is infinitely large, and that Hokkai is at the edge, all in the same lines of dialogue. The ship crosses that distance and is on autopilot.

You can't ignore the plot of the entire game being that the ship is heading to Hokkai, at the edge of the infinite Makai, to unseal Byakuren. The narrative and the information given ties directly into the story of UFO. Like, are you kidding me right now???

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh my ******* god what happened here while my internet was out

Apologies for the long wait. I cannot reply to absolutely everything that was posted while I was gone, that'd be impossible.

Valid points have been made against using Yukari's spell card for infinite speed scaling, so it's basically dead.

In response to Doge's post about which spell cards are fine to use:
-Cirno's "Minus K" spell card is described as having an "impossible to measure temperature" by Marisa, so that's consistent with the name.
-Youmu's sound manipulation isn't based on the spell card name, but rather the fact that Aya states she cut out all sound around her (something Aya would only notice if it were an external effect).

I would like to keep the others, but if that isn't possible then I at least think these two can stay based on other evidence.

I also don't agree with the idea that not knowing the specifics of how a given ability works is enough to discredit it entirely, since things like Remilia's fate manipulation operate on a similar level of vagueness. Having descriptions of how a given ability works is good, but not strictly necessary in order to add it to a profile. It just makes it more difficult to quantify in a VS debate.

Also, I would appreciate it if we stopped arguing with Malomtek on infinite speed. We're not gonna get anywhere with someone who argues from incredulity. We have more important things to focus on if everyone else here agrees with the Palanquin Ship scaling being valid.

Can someone sum up what else has been agreed and disagreed with? I will try to respond to everything once I'm more fully awake.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh right, should also mention that ZUN is pretty explicit about the part about the genre of the spell card equaling its effect. So stuff like Reimu's dream manip should stay. I'm neutral about the stuff in quotations being invalid without further elaboration.