Massive Source Downgrades (Maou Gakuin)

[PrinceofPein]

it proves that destroying the source will erase the past, present and future.

I really do not mind the other argument but the scan itself says.
"destroys the source of the person who pulls it out, present, past and future"
It is talking about the source getting destroyed in the present, past and future and not that the source getting destroyed will destroy the person's past, present and future. This is more of an english problem not CM.
To provide more examples.
"if you put your stick in, it will destroy your stick in the past, present and future"
"This will destroy the book of whoever enters in the past, present and future"

These are all referring to the object mentioned and not the person themself.
Just to clarify that, aside that I am not really interested in this thread and I am of the believe that the first should have been completed first before this is made

 

[YoPercy]

I strongly disagree with this BS bases on Dereck, Elde, Fixxed and Tatsumi's explanation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The main argument is based on the fact that erase the source does not imply erasing it in the past as well..... Which is highly incorrect

No? The source DOES get erased in the past, what are you talking about?

Taking into account the almighty sword, it proves that destroying the source will erase the past, present and future.

No, it will just erase that person's source in the past, present, and future. Where is it stated that it would erase the source in the present, and therefore cause a person to be erased across time?

The main argument is based on the fact that erase the source does not imply erasing it in the past as well..... Which is highly incorrect

Taking into account the almighty sword, it proves that destroying the source will erase the past, present and future.

There is only 1 source for the infinite incarnations of a single being, and if it is destroyed obviously its past and future will be destroyed because the fundamental concept of existence entered directly into the cycle of death. If the source is destroyed then the person will simply disappear from existence. There will be no way to not affect the past due to the existence of only 1 source per being.

...You do realize that there only being one source per person doesn't mean it can't still exist in the past, present, or future, right? I exist in the past too, that doesn't mean there's more than one version of me.

Also, a source being tied to a person's future incarnations doesn't mean it governs the past. At best it'd just govern the future.

Stop your dishonesty. No claim was made that it governs all of reality. It governs past, present, future of an individual.

It actually does as it confirms those incarnations are actually dying not that the possibility of Reincarnation is destroyed as a by product.

If it doesn't govern all of reality then it literally cannot be a type 2 concept. So if you admit it doesn't meet that standard, does that mean you agree?

That still doesn't affect what I said, the scans are still explicitly talking about a person's future incarnations. Them "dying" is just used to say that they can no longer come into being without a source.

Gotta disagree here, the source governs a person being across all of Spacetime and it fits the bill of Type 2;


Type 2 concepts govern all of reality not that just a single concept govern all of reality. Source qualifies easily.

Where does it say the source governs the past?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I really do not mind the other argument but the scan itself says.
"destroys the source of the person who pulls it out, present, past and future"
It is talking about the source getting destroyed in the present, past and future and not that the source getting destroyed will destroy the person's past, present and future. This is more of an english problem not CM.
To provide more examples.
"if you put your stick in, it will destroy your stick in the past, present and future"
"This will destroy the book of whoever enters in the past, present and future"

These are all referring to the object mentioned and not the person themself.
Just to clarify that, aside that I am not really interested in this thread and I am of the believe that the first should have been completed first before this is made

******* thank you for being the only person to understand this lmao

 

[Tatsumi504]

If it doesn't govern all of reality then it literally cannot be a type 2 concept. So if you admit it doesn't meet that standard, does that mean you agree?

Literally wrong. It doesn't need to govern reality. Reality refers to what the concept participates in

That still doesn't affect what I said, the scans are still explicitly talking about a person's future incarnations. Them "dying" is just used to say that they can no longer come into being without a source.

******* no. Explain how their future lives are also dying at the same time, explain how an infinite amount of magic power is released if it doesn't encompass the future.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Fire dew is an type 1 concept and Source is Equivalent to it. So not gonna bother i will wait for staff to evaluate.

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods.

For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

For the love of God OP doesn't understand what TF is type 2 concept. Destroying the source would destroy the existence of the character not vise verse. If you destroy the character then Source won't be affected by the side affects.

 

[theultimate5105]

Neutral on the Concept type 2 downgrade
I agree with the Information type 2 downgrade

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

No? The source DOES get erased in the past, what are you talking about?

No, it will just erase that person's source in the past, present, and future. Where is it stated that it would erase the source in the present, and therefore cause a person to be erased across time?

...You do realize that there only being one source per person doesn't mean it can't still exist in the past, present, or future, right? I exist in the past too, that doesn't mean there's more than one version of me.

Also, a source being tied to a person's future incarnations doesn't mean it governs the past. At best it'd just govern the future.

If it doesn't govern all of reality then it literally cannot be a type 2 concept. So if you admit it doesn't meet that standard, does that mean you agree?

That still doesn't affect what I said, the scans are still explicitly talking about a person's future incarnations. Them "dying" is just used to say that they can no longer come into being without a source.

Where does it say the source governs the past?

Nowhere in hell i have seen people asking for concepts governing in timelines. Did your favourite verses got CM type 1 for same reason? Do you have the thread links where you or anyone proves affecting the concept would affect past present and future? It's just you are making things up. Show me in wiki explanation page where it was strictly stated as you need to prove past present and future all getting affected by altering concepts?

CM page only states about area of influence not timeline stop making things up which doens't exists in wiki explaination pages.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Neutral on the Concept type 2 downgrade
I agree with the Information type 2 downgrade

Already explained it here regarding information type 2. Also feel free to show me example and explanation of information type 1 giving Regeneration and reconstruction abilities. I don't see anything like that in our wiki.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/massive-source-downgrades-maou-gakuin.150822/post-5564136

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Literally wrong. It doesn't need to govern reality. Reality refers to what the concept participates in

"2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence."

are you ******* kidding me bro
If it doesn't govern a concept across all of reality, it can't qualify. The source needs to govern a person's concept across all of time and space, which it has not been shown to do.

Nowhere in hell i have seen people asking for concepts governing in timelines. Did your favourite verses got CM type 1 for same reason? Do you have the thread links where you or anyone proves affecting the concept would affect past present and future? It's just you are making things up. Show me in wiki explanation page where it was strictly stated as you need to prove past present and future all getting affected by altering concepts?

CM page only states about area of influence not timeline stop making things up which doens't exists in wiki explaination pages.

Whataboutism aside, both type 1 concepts in my verse literally created space-time, so :v

I would drop the point about past/present/future, but that is the evidence currently being used for type 2. If those scans are NOT why sources are type 2 concepts, then what is? On what basis do sources govern all of reality?

******* no. Explain how their future lives are also dying at the same time, explain how an infinite amount of magic power is released if it doesn't encompass the future.

This has no relation to anything I just said. Their "future lives" are dying in the sense that they can't reincarnate. Drawing magic power from the future is cool and all, but it doesn't debunk what I said.

For the love of God OP doesn't understand what TF is type 2 concept. Destroying the source would destroy the existence of the character not vise verse. If you destroy the character then Source won't be affected by the side affects.

You do realize this can still be true for type 3 concepts, yeah? It's just that their scope is much smaller. This doesn't change anything I've said.

 

[Deceived3596]

Following

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Whataboutism aside, both type 1 concepts in my verse literally created space-time, so :v

I would drop the point about past/present/future, but that is the evidence currently being used for type 2. If those scans are NOT why sources are type 2 concepts, then what is? On what basis do sources govern all of reality?

Already a scan was posted about fire dew being CM type 1 and Source is Equivalent to it by keyword statement by author. I won't bother going in circles regarding other things staffs can review and decide on whatever they think.

You do realize this can still be true for type 3 concepts, yeah? It's just that their scope is much smaller. This doesn't change anything I've said.

3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specifications and explanations are necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not going to meet the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

Source has enough elaboration it doesn't fall under this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Source has enough elaboration it doesn't fall under this.

My guy....
"merely on a more specific scale, OR concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon"
Sources don't need to fit both. It governs concepts on a highly specific scale (literally just the concept of a single person), and that alone is good enough. Do you understand what "or" means, Eldemade?

Already a scan was posted about fire dew being CM type 1 and Source is Equivalent to it by keyword statement by author. I won't bother going in circles regarding other things staffs can review and decide on whatever they think.

I would appreciate it if you could post the full quotes here, as your imgur link won't open. However, the second scan calls fire dew a "visualization of the laws affecting the 'source' of the Earth", which sounds to me like it isn't the same thing (otherwise a source would be a visualization of the laws affecting the source, which doesn't make any sense).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyways I do have to be going to work now, so I will continue this later.

 

[Fixxed]

If it doesn't govern a concept across all of reality, it can't qualify. The source needs to govern a person's concept across all of time and space, which it has not been shown to do.

Why to have CM 2 need govern the object across all of time and space?
Other verse can have CM 2 without govern the past present and future at once of the object

 

[Deceived3596]

I would appreciate it if you could post the full quotes here, as your imgur link won't open.

Does this link work?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

My guy....
"merely on a more specific scale, OR concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon"
Sources don't need to fit both. It governs concepts on a highly specific scale (literally just the concept of a single person), and that alone is good enough. Do you understand what "or" means, Eldemade?

I know what or means where in hell if you destroy a CM type 3 concepts would destroy infinite reincarnation of an character? I don't see how TF this is just CM type 3.

I would appreciate it if you could post the full quotes here, as your imgur link won't open. However, the second scan calls fire dew a "visualization of the laws affecting the 'source' of the Earth", which sounds to me like it isn't the same thing (otherwise a source would be a visualization of the laws affecting the source, which doesn't make any sense).

Check the CM type 1 upgrade thread by Tatsumi your whole thread already gets debunked in those arguments. I don't know why you and glass created this after Tatsumi created that. You guys should deal with on thread if you disagree with something first. Not simultaneously spamming two random things.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Why to have CM 2 need govern the object across all of time and space?
Other verse can have CM 2 without govern the past present and future at once of the object

It doesn't. However, the scans being used to prove sources are type 2 concepts are reliant on it governing the past, present, and future.

So if those scans are NOT why sources are type 2, then can you show me the actual evidence for type 2? And if they ARE why sources are type 2, then all my points still stand. Can you tell me which one it is, please?

Does this link work?

Yeah, thanks.

I know what or means where in hell if you destroy a CM type 3 concepts would destroy infinite reincarnation of an character? I don't see how TF this is just CM type 3.

Check the CM type 1 upgrade thread by Tatsumi your whole thread already gets debunked in those arguments. I don't know why you and glass created this after Tatsumi created that. You guys should deal with on thread if you disagree with something first. Not simultaneously spamming two random things.

I'll get back to this after work, but Glass had no part in making this thread. This was all my doing

 

[Deceived3596]

Yeah, thanks.

Np

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'll get back to this after work, but Glass had no part in making this thread. This was all my doing

If that's the case you should debunk Tastumi thread first. Then we can debate on this one. If thats gets accepted this has no meaning.

 

[theultimate5105]

Already explained it here regarding information type 2. Also feel free to show me example and explanation of information type 1 giving Regeneration and reconstruction abilities. I don't see anything like that in our wiki.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/massive-source-downgrades-maou-gakuin.150822/post-5564136

Except the Information does not directly do this
Instead it is used as an outline so an actual resurrection ability can be used to recreate the persons body

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Except the Information does not directly do this
Instead it is used as an outline so an actual resurrection ability can be used to recreate the persons body

Physical body and memories < Soul < Spirit < Fundamental Concepts < abstract existence made up of memories which can be considered as information. Unless you tell me what TF you call memories? Also this abstract existence can think for themselves. From this information they are reconstructing the body, Soul , Spirit all together. We are not giving information type 2 existence for Physical body or something we are giving information type 2 manipulation for manipulating the information and being able to exists as a seperate information of abstract existence.

For your records we have spirit which are made up of information and they reconstructs their body with source same as how normal beings does. so don't see anything regarding a Downgrade here.

 

[theultimate5105]

Physical body and memories < Soul < Spirit < Fundamental Concepts < abstract existence made up of memories which can be considered as information. Unless you tell me what TF you call memories? Also this abstract existence can think for themselves. From this information they are reconstructing the body, Soul , Spirit all together. We are not giving information type 2 existence for Physical body or something we are giving information type 2 manipulation for manipulating the information and being able to exists as a seperate information of abstract existence.

For your records we have spirit which are made up of information and they reconstructs their body with source same as how normal beings does. so don't see anything regarding a Downgrade here.

Memories are not type 2 information
Yes which you can do using type 1 information and the ability to create all of those things

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Memories are not type 2 information

Nice way of Ignoring what i said. They can exists as abstract existence and Memories are abstract information. Which is deeper than even fundamental concepts which clear cut comes under type 2 information manipulation.

Yes which you can do using type 1 information and the ability to create all of those things

Give examples buddy I don't need your trust me bro policy. Information type 1 explanation doesn't even have any explanation to do with reconstruction.

Feel free to point out where type 1 talks about creation & reconstruction?

---

1. Knowledge: These characters can manipulate information as the medium of knowledge as opposed to just manipulating what a specific person knows, which would be considered Mind Manipulation. Characters with this ability can, for example, destroy information on a subject and by that make it inherently unknowable. Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else.
2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

 

[Fixxed]

It doesn't. However, the scans being used to prove sources are type 2 concepts are reliant on it governing the past, present, and future.

So if those scans are NOT why sources are type 2, then can you show me the actual evidence for type 2? And if they ARE why sources are type 2, then all my points still stand. Can you tell me which one it is, please?

What?? The thing that make it type 2 is because it govern the entire existence or all aspects of that person (body soul and spirit). The past present and future thing is just a bonus

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What?? The thing that make it type 2 is because it govern the entire existence or all aspects of that person (body soul and spirit). The past present and future thing is just a bonus

ohhhh my god you cannot be serious

Souls, minds, and bodies are not realities in and of themselves and this governing them cannot qualify for type 2 (which requires acting as the concept of a thing across all of reality). This is explicitly a type 3 concept, so thank you for making my job easier.

alright back to work now

 

[Fixxed]

ohhhh my god you cannot be serious

Souls, minds, and bodies are not realities in and of themselves and this governing them cannot qualify for type 2 (which requires acting as the concept of a thing across all of reality). This is explicitly a type 3 concept, so thank you for making my job easier.

alright back to work now

Wow... dont say you think the reality that mean in CM 2,1's explanation is the world it self

 

[Guileal]

I disagree with the downgrade, I'll give my opinions later

 

[Dog3352]

ohhhh my god you cannot be serious

Souls, minds, and bodies are not realities in and of themselves and this governing them cannot qualify for type 2 (which requires acting as the concept of a thing across all of reality). This is explicitly a type 3 concept, so thank you for making my job easier.

alright back to work now

We are repeating this in 2 CRTS, with several comments, and still with it mentioned in the OP of the other CRT.
On the other CRT there is already in the OP the confirmation of admins saying that "governing reality" is about what the concept governs, and not literally reality, did you even read the OP of the previous CRT? Not to mention the VARIOUS comments addressing this and explaining exactly this.

 

[Dog3352]

I already disagreed with this CRT, now I disagree 10000%+ than before, clearly the person who made the OP doesn't even know how conceptual manipulation works.

 

[Guileal]

The sources not only govern the life of a person, but all his infinite reincarnations in the entire cosmology of the work.

Let's take examples like Celis and Luna, who are from different layers that Anos lives in, and both reincarnated in the world of Anos (Layer 0), this just proves that the source reaches and covers even infinite distances of universes.

It is literally stated that the source is in everything in the world and in all things, it is not for nothing that even the Spirits and Gods (Abstract Beings) in the work that embody universal and platonic concepts need a source to continue existing.

No, the characters don't manipulate memories or things like that to reincarnate, honestly whoever says that must not have even seen the anime, since it's something so basic and explained in the beginning, to manipulate memories, minds or whatever, you need to manipulate the origin, with origin magic, those who don't reincarnate with their life memories are those who don't have skills with origin magic, no wonder Shin asked Anos to use origin magic on him so they wouldn't lose his memories and skills.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What?? The thing that make it type 2 is because it govern the entire existence or all aspects of that person (body soul and spirit). The past present and future thing is just a bonus

The thing is, that is clearly governing a personal concept. It's just a collection of things that make you, you. The definition of type 3 is "personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale", and the concept of you is extremely personal.

The sources not only govern the life of a person, but all his infinite reincarnations in the entire cosmology of the work.

Okay, a concept can still be type 3 and do that. Not to mention, that only applies to the future, and not the past.

Let's take examples like Celis and Luna, who are from different layers that Anos lives in, and both reincarnated in the world of Anos (Layer 0), this just proves that the source reaches and covers even infinite distances of universes.

So they reincarnated in a place different from where they died. That doesn't mean the concept resurrecting them is spread across all of reality itself, just that it can resurrect people at a distance, which is cool and all, but again, not type 2.

It is literally stated that the source is in everything in the world and in all things, it is not for nothing that even the Spirits and Gods (Abstract Beings) in the work that embody universal and platonic concepts need a source to continue existing.

Okay, so beings embodying type 2/1 concepts have type 3 concepts. Again, why is this proof of sources being type 2? You keep bringing up all this stuff, but none of it proves type 2 or debunks type 3.

No, the characters don't manipulate memories or things like that to reincarnate, honestly whoever says that must not have even seen the anime, since it's something so basic and explained in the beginning, to manipulate memories, minds or whatever, you need to manipulate the origin, with origin magic, those who don't reincarnate with their life memories are those who don't have skills with origin magic, no wonder Shin asked Anos to use origin magic on him so they wouldn't lose his memories and skills.

That's exactly my point though... the memories are stored in the source, which counts as information. The issue is that information, being memories, would be classified as knowledge, and therefore type 1 information. Memories aren't fundamental and do not qualify as type 2 information.

Anyways, I've been looking through old CM threads and it is pretty consistently agreed that type 2 concepts DO need to govern all of reality, while concepts that only govern specific things (like the concept of a person) are only type 3 (as accepted here, here, and here... probably some other threads but 3 examples should be enough). As sources only govern personal concepts, they can only ever qualify for type 3. You would need to rewrite the CM standards themselves to change this, unfortunately.

As an aside, can we please get some CM experts in here lol

 

[Dog3352]

Anyways, I've been looking through old CM threads and it is pretty consistently agreed that type 2 concepts DO need to govern all of reality, while concepts that only govern specific things (like the concept of a person) are only type 3 (as accepted here, here, and here... probably some other threads but 3 examples should be enough). As sources only govern personal concepts, they can only ever qualify for type 3. You would need to rewrite the CM standards themselves to change this, unfortunately.

The first link is just about deleting a person's name, Bleach is FAR from being anything like what we're discussing here.
The second link literally proves nothing, Tatsumi has confirmation from experienced CM admins saying that reality is not about a universe, cosmology or anything like that, a type 1 concept can be related to a single object, the concept can only be related to a planet, galaxy, or something like that, but it can still be type 1.
The third is from 2021, the CM has not changed from 2021 to today? I'm reading about mental concepts and feelings in concept type 3, which I don't see on the current page.

Because being able to grant names for Zanpakutos or removing/erasing Yhwach’s name is only a type 3 concept he’s affecting since the names are tied to a specific object, not an overarching concept that governs existence.

A name is not a "concept governant", let's say that everyone knows a person named Thiago, but that name (the person's name specifically) is erased from existence, does that mean that it is erasing the person named Thiago? Obviously not, the person named Thiago will still exist, as well as the source, if you erase/destroy him, you will erase/destroy everything, mind, body, soul, etc. Comparing these topics makes no sense.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The first link is just about deleting a person's name, Bleach is FAR from being anything like what we're discussing here.

It's about "personal concepts" that only govern a single person not qualifying as type 2, and being type 3 instead. It is the same logic here.

The second link literally proves nothing, Tatsumi has confirmation from experienced CM admins saying that reality is not about a universe, cosmology or anything like that, a type 1 concept can be related to a single object, the concept can only be related to a planet, galaxy, or something like that, but it can still be type 1.

And are these "experienced CM admins" in the room with us right now? Either call them to the thread to give their opinions, or don't bother mentioning them.

The third is from 2021, the CM has not changed from 2021 to today? I'm reading about mental concepts and feelings in concept type 3, which I don't see on the current page.

I was referring to this specific post, which defines type 3 as only governing specific concepts that aren't universal in nature. That's the basis for what we have now, and replaced the stuff about mental concepts/feelings.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Reading through, I agree with the thread

 

[Dog3352]

It's about "personal concepts" that only govern a single person not qualifying as type 2, and being type 3 instead. It is the same logic here.

See the rest of the comment, a name does not cover anything about a person, erasing the name does not erase the person, VERY different from the source.
Source exists deeper than the soul, body and mind, it is not affected by the destruction of any of these, it is the fundamental concept of existence, and you are comparing this to ERASE ONE NAME.

And are these "experienced CM admins" in the room with us right now? Either call them to the thread to give their opinions, or don't bother mentioning them.

I don't think a normal user can do this.

I was referring to this specific post, which defines type 3 as only governing specific concepts that aren't universal in nature. That's the basis for what we have now, and replaced the stuff about mental concepts/feelings.

Was this specific post accepted? As far as I can see, things like "on a smaller scale" are not in the CM's explanation, in addition to the but, the very post in the first CRT talks about the fact that a name does not cover the person at all, since even if the name is deleted , the person (body, mind, soul, or whatever it is in Bleach) is unaffected when the name is not erased.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Was this specific post accepted? As far as I can see, things like "on a smaller scale" are not in the CM's explanation, in addition to the but, the very post in the first CRT talks about the fact that a name does not cover the person at all, since even if the name is deleted , the person (body, mind, soul, or whatever it is in Bleach) is unaffected when the name is not erased.

Yes, it's just phrased a bit differently. "personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale" is just saying the concepts are on a smaller scale since they only apply to specific things and not everything across all of reality (like the concept of a single apple vs the concept of all apples in the universe). Idk why you brought the first thread up again though

See the rest of the comment, a name does not cover anything about a person, erasing the name does not erase the person, VERY different from the source.
Source exists deeper than the soul, body and mind, it is not affected by the destruction of any of these, it is the fundamental concept of existence, and you are comparing this to ERASE ONE NAME.

None of this changes the fact that the source is a personal concept that only applies to one person. That is quite literally the definition of type 3. Anything that comes after that is irrelevant, regardless of if it erases people, or exists beyond the soul, or what have you.

I don't think a normal user can do this.

Then don't pull the "actually all the staff agree with me" card if you can't back it up.

 

[Dog3352]

None of this changes the fact that the source is a personal concept that only applies to one person. That is quite literally the definition of type 3. Anything that comes after that is irrelevant, regardless of if it erases people, or exists beyond the soul, or what have you.

My goodness in heaven, are you really understanding my comments? ERASE A NAME does not qualify as a type 2 CM because THE NAME DOES NOT GOVERNS ANYTHING, erasing a name does not erase or affect the person, as it does not governs anything at all, so it does not qualify as a type 2, and not because it is related to a single person.

"Because being able to grant names for Zanpakutos or removing/erasing Yhwach’s name is only a type 3 concept he’s affecting since the names are tied to a specific object (Body), not an overarching concept that governs existence."

The name is not linked to existence or anything like that, a person exists even if he has no name, not the source, the source is the fundamental concept of existence, it GOVERNS the body, mind and soul, different from a mere name, that not governs nothing.

Yes, it's just phrased a bit differently. "personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale" is just saying the concepts are on a smaller scale since they only apply to specific things and not everything across all of reality (like the concept of a single apple vs the concept of all apples in the universe). Idk why you brought the first thread up again though

"3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon."

"1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts."

"2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence."

Everyone has a specific area, the difference is that to be type 3, it would not meet the requirements of 1, nor 2, the concept type 3 is something that does not cover anything, which even if destroyed, will not affect the person in question, like THE NAME FOR EXAMPLE.

Then don't pull the "actually all the staff agree with me" card if you can't back it up.

It's in the topic of source being updated for CM type 1, it literally has the links in the OP, you haven't even read it apparently.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dude, why are you so ******* fixated on the name stuff? I'll drop it, the point remains that sources are personal concepts that only govern a single person and thus cannot be type 2.

 

[Dog3352]

Dude, why are you so ******* fixated on the name stuff? I'll drop it, the point remains that sources are personal concepts that only govern a single person and thus cannot be type 2.

Maybe because of the name and reason why it's just CM type 3?

Name: Doesn't governs anything (apparently, just the "identity"), it's not fundamental (I don't need a name to exist), erasing a name doesn't affect the person at all (the person continues to exist even if the name is erased, and nothing in the person is affected, be it body, mind, soul, memory, existence, or the like).


Source: Is one abstract concept; Governs the body, mind and soul; it is the fundamental concept of existence; erasing it (the source) would erase the person, erasing the body, mind and soul.