Touhou - Infinite Speed issues

[Speedblitzer50]

Throws a danmaku pattern infinitely faster than what you can react to at you. Very dogeable

The only instance of a "lower tier" scaling in speed to high tiers is moon rabbits who are possibly high 6-A so people like fairies dont have much reason to scale.
Especially when this makes everybody and their mother in the entire series infinite speed including fairies and humans which is just a fat outlier.

The most logical thing is that the reason why they can dodge such danmaku is precisely because they have infinite speed as well, it the verse has never been said that speed is hold back, and making dodgeable patterns only refers to creating dodgeable patterns of danmaku and not create something like this but completely unavoidable

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

Posts like this makes me wish this forum had a better image posting ui
Okay so she was putting them through a trial. But this wasnt related to the river and it sounds like she wanted them to actually meet with kutaka instead of making the river almost inaccessible soooo...

Your logic is the same as the one I addressed in the comment you quoted.

Yes, Eiki could have asked Komachi to shorten the river. That’s entirely within the realm of possibility.

But that’s just it: it’s a possibility. We can’t say for sure whether or not this happened. As such we should stick to what’s been stated.

And nothing has been said about anyone altering the Sanzu during Touhou 17.

 

[RethPo]

The most logical thing is that the reason why they can dodge such danmaku is precisely because they have infinite speed as well, it the verse has never been said that speed is hold back, and making dodgeable patterns only refers to creating dodgeable patterns of danmaku and not create something like this but completely unavoidable

Funny you should bring up impossible spellcard. Because spellcards such as remillias literally use speedblitzing and making danmaku insanely fast to become undodgeable. And no. Basic common logic dictates that you need to be in the same area of speed to be dogeable. Otherwise why even make a dogeable rule in the first place? You cant just scale people in speed based on a system where everybody holds back and anyone can beat anyone. Tbf you could argue that seija scales to high tier speed

Yes, Eiki could have asked Komachi to shorten the river. That’s entirely within the realm of possibility.

But that’s just it: it’s a possibility. We can’t say for sure whether or not this happened. As such we should stick to what’s been stated.

And nothing has been said about it anyone altering the Sanzu during Touhou 17.

Okay so its stated that eiki approved for them to pass, but was putting them under a test with that fight.
She could have got her subordinate to make the river passable, or she could have just not bothered or tested the opponent that way.
From what i see this still only warrants a possibly infinite rating at best. You cant just give someone a solid rating as ridiculously high as infinite speed with something basically built on 50/50 assumption especially when theres no reason to have a komachi statement here.

Also just wondering, what happens when komachi is ferrying someone? Wouldnt the river be finite then for other people crossing? Or would it be somehow finite for her but infinite for everyone else?

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

Just because it is a light attack does not mean that it is only speed of light, there are many other characters in fiction with infinite speeds who use light attacks and it would be ridiculous to think that those attacks only move at the speed of light. The most logical thing is to think that they move at infinite speed or else it would bring many outliers and problems

Please don't think that the main attack of an infinite speed character is only SOL because it is made of light
please lol

(Damn the message is bugged)

Given context, I think it'd be weird for it not to be light speed. It'd be a contradictory statement for her to say "Nothing's faster than light!" before proceeding to launch an infinitely fast laser.

thank goodness marisa hasn't contradicted any of her statements before

But I digress. It's not relevant to the discussion.

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

Funny you should bring up impossible spellcard. Because spellcards such as remillias literally use speedblitzing and making danmaku insanely fast to become undodgeable. And no. Basic common logic dictates that you need to be in the same area of speed to be dogeable. Otherwise why even make a dogeable rule in the first place? You cant just scale people in speed based on a system where everybody holds back and anyone can beat anyone.

There are no undodgeable spellcards in Touhou. If they could not be dodged they would not be Spellcards. Speedblitzing is not a thing in 99% of Touhou battles because it is prohibited. Even Aya, who's whole shtick is speed, never just blitzes the MoF protagonists before they can breathe. She expresses the concept of her speed in attacks like Wind God Girl, where she moves faster than Marisa could perceive, but it's ultimately a very winnable attack.

Okay so its stated that eiki approved for them to pass, but was putting them under a test with that fight.
She could have got her subordinate to make the river passable, or she could have just not bothered or tested the opponent that way.
From what i see this still only warrants a possibly infinite rating at best. You cant just give someone a solid rating as ridiculously high as infinite speed with something basically built on 50/50 assumption especially when theres no reason to have a komachi statement here.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but you seem to have the arguements reversed. Your rebuttal operates on presumption. We assume that Eiki shortened the river. I'm not saying that's not possible. What I'm saying is that we should go with whatever has been said and to not operate off of asumption.

There are no statements saying Eiki shortened the river. We could assume that she did, but that's the kind of 50/50 logic that you yourself find flawed.

Also just wondering, what happens when komachi is ferrying someone? Wouldnt the river be finite then for other people crossing? Or would it be somehow finite for her but infinite for everyone else?

Good question. I'll admit, I don't know how shinigami could simultaneously ferry people across the Sanzu River. My best guess is that they only shorten certain parts of the Sanzu, or some other crazy spatial manip tomfoolery that allows only their passage to be affected.

I'd wait for a more someone more knowledgeable to comment for a satisfying answer.

 

[RethPo]

There are no undodgeable spellcards in Touhou. If they could not be dodged they would not be Spellcards. Speedblitzing is not a thing in 99% of Touhou battles because it is prohibited. Even Aya, who's whole shtick is speed, never just blitzes the MoF protagonists before they can breathe. She expresses the concept of her speed in attacks like Wind God Girl, where she moves faster than Marisa could perceive, but it's ultimately a very winnable attack.

I agree with this.

I'd wait for a more someone more knowledgeable to comment for a satisfying answer.

Eh maybe. Id rather not go into every single minute detail at this point and try getting the staff whove commented and giving them an easy rundown a bit later on the arguments and come to a conclusion since they know all the wiki standards. This threads been going for too long although by vs battles standards "too long" of a ctr is probably at least 5 years.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And no. Basic common logic dictates that you need to be in the same area of speed to be dogeable.

Aim dodging tbh.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Funny you should bring up impossible spellcard. Because spellcards such as remillias literally use speedblitzing and making danmaku insanely fast to become undodgeable. And no. Basic common logic dictates that you need to be in the same area of speed to be dogeable. Otherwise why even make a dogeable rule in the first place? You cant just scale people in speed based on a system where everybody holds back and anyone can beat anyone.

She makes it """"undodgeable"""" by filling almost the entire screen with danmaku, the speed doesn't matter since there are many other regular danmaku attacks that go at immense speeds like that but have much more dodgeable patterns

In touhou, a 100% undodgeable pattern is one where the entire screen would be filled with danmaku without any space to dodge it, regardless of speed

and the rule that all attacks must ve dodgeable exists for avoid the characters "fill 100% of the screen with danmaku", not so that they can't launch them at incredible speeds because they already do that

There are no undodgeable spellcards in Touhou. If they could not be dodged they would not be Spellcards. Speedblitzing is not a thing in 99% of Touhou battles because it is prohibited. Even Aya, who's whole shtick is speed, never just blitzes the MoF protagonists before they can breathe. She expresses the concept of her speed in attacks like Wind God Girl, where she moves faster than Marisa could perceive, but it's ultimately a very winnable attack.

Maybe characters don't speedblitz outside of their spell cards.

But then, why is Marisa faster than Reimu during spell card battles? If they were holding back their speed then Marisa should have exactly the same speed as Reimu or any of her opponents during these battles but it is not the case

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

She makes it """"undodgeable"""" by filling almost the entire screen with danmaku, the speed doesn't matter since there are many other regular danmaku attacks that go at immense speeds like that but have much more dodgeable patterns

In touhou, a 100% undodgeable pattern is one where the entire screen would be filled with danmaku without any space to dodge it, regardless of speed

and the rule that all attacks must ve dodgeable exists for avoid the characters "fill 100% of the screen with danmaku", not so that they can't launch them at incredible speeds because they already do that

Maybe characters don't speedblitz outside of their spell cards.

But then, why is Marisa faster than Reimu during spell card battles? If they were holding back their speed then Marisa should have exactly the same speed as Reimu or any of her opponents during these battles but it is not the case

While I am enjoying this discussion, I think it's time we direct our attention back to more directly related CRT topics. I feel like this subject kind of strays from the original post, which is about the validity of several infinite speed feats.

I still disagree with the original post and am open to further discussion.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Given context, I think it'd be weird for it not to be light speed. It'd be a contradictory statement for her to say "Nothing's faster than light!" before proceeding to launch an infinitely fast laser.

thank goodness marisa hasn't contradicted any of her statements before

But I digress. It's not relevant to the discussion.

Bro, are you really going to take the statement of a liar like Marisa seriously?

If a character with infinite speed can launch light attacks that are even faster than him, the most logical thing is that said light attacks are of Infinite speed, otherwise it would be like saying that Goku would use a gun with supersonic bullets to attack MFTL+ characters

just because they are light and a liar said that nothing is faster than light (When there are even FTL feats in Touhou that refute that statement) does not mean that they are only SOL

and as a reminder, the mini-hakkero already has a profile and has infinite speed lol

and I know this is way off topic, but I seriously can't believe anyone would believe that a character with infinite speed would use SOL attacks

 

[Speedblitzer50]

While I am enjoying this discussion, I think it's time we direct our attention back to more directly related CRT topics. I feel like this subject kind of strays from the original post, which is about the validity of several infinite speed feats.

I still disagree with the original post and am open to further discussion.

Okay (I'll ignore that maybe it's an attempt not to answer me lol)

But I was saying all this because I believe that the lower tiers scale in speed to the higher tiers, for all the reasons I have said. Thats all lol

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

Bro, are you really going to take the statement of a liar like Marisa seriously?

If a character with infinite speed can launch light attacks that are even faster than him, the most logical thing is that said light attacks are of Infinite speed, otherwise it would be like saying that Goku would use a gun with supersonic bullets to attack MFTL+ characters

just because they are light and a liar said that nothing is faster than light (When there are even FTL feats in Touhou that refute that statement) does not mean that they are only SOL

and as a reminder, the mini-hakkero already has a profile and has infinite speed lol

and I know this is way off topic, but I seriously can't believe anyone would believe that a character with infinite speed would use SOL attacks

I'm aware my logic doesn't hold up to VSBW standards, and I alluded to this in the slashed through text. It's personal interpretation of perceived authorial intent, which is entirely subjective, and thus holds no bearing on Vs Wiki tiering. I just think Zun wanted Master Spark to be light speed based on context.

I am fine with infinite speed Mini-Hakkero on this wiki. This isn't something I'm interested in debating.

Okay (I'll ignore that maybe it's an attempt not to answer me lol)

But I was saying all this because I believe that the lower tiers scale in speed to the higher tiers, for all the reasons I have said. Thats all lol

I am not attempting to avoid a debate. I just feel as though this conversation of ours has gotten off-topic. I'd like to strictly discuss the validity of the infinite speed feats as presented in the original post. I'm sorry if you feel as though I'm ignoring your argument. This is not my intent.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I'm aware my logic doesn't hold up to VSBW standards, and I alluded to this in the slashed through text. It's personal interpretation of perceived authorial intent, which is entirely subjective, and thus holds no bearing on Vs Wiki tiering. I just think Zun wanted Master Spark to be light speed based on context.

I am fine with infinite speed Mini-Hakkero on this wiki. This isn't something I'm interested in debating.

I am not attempting to avoid a debate. I just feel as though this conversation of ours has gotten off-topic. I'd like to strictly discuss the validity of the infinite speed feats as presented in the original post. I'm sorry if you feel as though I'm ignoring your argument. This is not my intent.

Perhaps Zun wanted his characters to be canonically SOL or FTL, but the infinite speed feats say otherwise. Anyway, authors never know all the time how powerful they make their characters.


And on the other hand, okay, it's better that this CRT continues with the issue of the validity of infinite speed (I actually disagree with the OP). The whole issue of whether the low tiers scale in speed to the high tiers and whether they are
holding back its speed or not, can be discussed later lol

 

[RethPo]

@Armorchompy @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus I know this wont ping but this is so you can find the post.

So heres an easy as possible summary on all the arguments besides the ship because we seem to have let go of that at this point

For starters i brought up the ftl range feats compared to infinite feats in page 2 post 65 so feel free to read that. But its 7 ftl-mftl feats (most casual but treat as impressive for a couple) compared to the two infinite ones.

The infinite corridor​

Kaguya has the ability to create an infinite corridor and it is referred to as "endless" in one of the dialogues. However in IN they reach the end very abruptly. And in eirins dialogue she implies that the corridors an illusion (though that part could be down to weird translation). And more importantly she referrs to the corridor as a passage (implying a deliberate beginning and end) and implies she led the protags out of the infinite corridor somewhat implying she wasnt trying to trap them. Heres the quotes because im too lazy for imgur and your image posting system is the worst >_<
The illusion thing:

Eirin: Yes, you were led through that eternal corridor,and came to this false moon here. The full moon is the one key that links the moon to the earth. If one were to break that key, travel between the moon and earth would be impossible. See? You've been deceived by this fake illusion, just like that.
Ah, it's an illusion. Was that absurdly long corridor just now an illusion too?

Remillia: It might've been. No cleaning mop would stand a chance against a corridor that long.

Sakuya: Well, wouldn't you need a wet rag and not a mop? That'd hurt your back.

Eirin: That's a very pointless thing to worry about, isn't it? It's an illusion. An illusion.

The passage quote and implications they were meant to reach the end:

Eirin: You're so impatient. But, look at the place we're in right now. Do you know where this is?
Reimu: ??
Eirin: This place is between the false moon and the Earth. That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two. You two were fooled by an illusion that the false full moon produced, and came here.
Reimu: And? So what about it?
Eirin: Do you have any method of returning home?
Yukari: I see. Let's take care of that after beating you. We're in no hurry.

Marisa: I'm lookin'. We wound up outside at some point.
Eirin: Yes, the outside. You were led through that eternal corridor, and came here. So, how's the air outside?

So shes fighting to stop the protagonists, but its also vaguely implied she led them through the corridor on purpose before fighting them. This is kaguya and her ability is to make a corridor thats infinite. But its not implied they were trying to trap them and only has one "endless" statement to back it up otherwise.

Sanzu river​

To sum it up. The sanzu river is infinite if you dont pay the ferry woman or she just doesnt want to do her job, and is finite if shes doing her job or changes it on purpose. You probably know more about whatever discussion came near the beginning on it as well so i wont go to too much detail.
In touhou 9 eiki as far as im aware basically says that the Sanzu River is infinite for the living while denying them entry to it.

In touhou 17 however, eiki is completely fine with them crossing and only sends kutaka to fight them as a trial. It is unknown whether eiki contacted komachi to make the river crossable, and though it would seem weird for her not to, it is never stated whether she did or didnt alter the rivers length to be crossable.

So the questions i would like answered atm from staff is:

Is the corridor feat valid enough to have listed on the profiles?
Do you support straight up Infinite, or Mftl+ possibly/likely Infinite based on this post? (incase it changes your mind on anything)
Is the touhou 17 river crossing valid enough to mention on profiles? Or should we simply stick with the touhou 9 feat for being comparitively more solid?
And if you can just explain the reasoning

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

@RethPo even pushing aside the Palanquin (which is all a matter of reassuring that the use of language is correct), you're forgetting Suika's feat of moving and putting together all of the infinitely large Heavens after shattering them in their totality.

As it was discussed in the original CRT that added the feat, the use of "canopy" doesn't matter, because Suika had to fully tear down the Heavens, anyway. Not only that, but the words used to refer to Heaven are always used interchangeably, which means that there shouldn't be anything really preventing Suika's fear from referring to all of the Heavens.

Since I doubt there's any legitimate way to refute this, than there's still one absolute infinite speed feat with no other possible interpretation.

Edit: I don't plan on being heavily involved, but a whole feat being ignored rubbed me the wrong way

 

[RethPo]

Suika uses crazy diamond

Idek if destroying a space then reforming it with presumably density manipulation even qualifies for infinite speed under wiki standards so hell if i know. Thats assuming she even fragmented it on a level that the pieces of heaven were all scattered infinitely far away.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Unfortunately my next reply to saikou and others points will be delayed, VSBW did a silly and ******* wiped my draft off the face of the earth and I could only save some of it

One quick thing though

Idek if destroying a space then reforming it with presumably density manipulation even qualifies for infinite speed under wiki standards so hell if i know. Thats assuming she even fragmented it on a level that the pieces of heaven were all scattered infinitely far away.

It was accepted under wiki standards, so it had to be infinite speed under wiki standards. It’s also blowing apart and then repiecing together an infinitely sized realm. To be frank I don’t see a way you can slice it that this isn’t infinite, especially being able to piece it all back together.

 

[Deidalius]

You know, if someone sharing the words of a banned user is a spirit medium, like, they're using an ouija board to communicate with the dead.

Does that make me a stand of a stand user, since the user I am talking for isn't banned? I'm his stand, hahaha.

Anyway, I'll share what oomf told me to say.
...

(Don't send this one. I will add "-----" to my responses)

I will send 2 messages due to Discord character limits.
-----

It's because Infinite speed, for the characters, ain't an easy feat to achieve. In example of Touhou 19.5, a character whom needs to pass through the route of Sanzu River > Higan > Hell; complains about the sheer length of the journey she needs to take. It's more like an upper cap of what they can do rather than being their base.

How is it possible that something like infinite speed requires so much effort? According to the wiki itself, they should be able to travel a finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance in finite time. Does this mean that most locations in the franchise are infinite? Besides, if the characters are able to reach such speed, then I assume that they must have the necessary reflexes to perceive it, or do they increase as they speed up?

As for the incident resolving thing, you see, there needs to be some clue collection (and plot, duh) needed to progress through the stages and let the game have its playability remain intact.

I would say that's a good point, but I think it's still unnecessary to cross the stages and deal with the low level enemies, the protagonists should only confront the bosses.

Just because all characters have infinite speed does not mean that there cannot be some faster than others. FOR EXAMPLE FROM ANOTHER VERSE, Sonic and Tails have infinite speed but obviously Sonic is faster, and in Touhou the same thing happens, Aya is faster than Reimu for example

I dunno how that is possible with infinite speed.
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No, I don’t think Touhou characters are fighting at infinite speed all the time. This would make something like Marisa’s Master Spark pretty redundant since it only travels at the speed of light. And, as Speedblitzer mentioned, there are canon travel times (ex: Imperishable Night) that are quite lengthy.

The Master Spark can reach the speed of light and Sakuya surpasses it. Why are these treated as impressive when most characters can reach infinite speed?

Why would Marisa lie about this? In an attempt to trick Yorihime? Who a few moments ago had faced Sakuya?

Sakuya being faster than light isn't stated by a character, but by the narrator.

If someone wanted to debunk the speed of the characters based on travel time outliers (For example, characters who have demonstrated about 10 times that they have FTL/infinite speed, taking 2 hours to travel a few kilometers) they would have to debunk 80% of the fiction

I wouldn’t say this is a valid debunk, but more so showing how they don’t always move or fight at their top speed. After all, that being the case would contradict the meaning of Spellcard battles (no meaning in speedblitzing someone into oblivion) and directly oppose canon travel times.

I wouldn't dare to say that you're accusing me, but I want to clarify that my intentions aren't to debunk this, but to understand how it works.
-----

 

[Speedblitzer50]

You know, if someone sharing the words of a banned user is a spirit medium, like, they're using an ouija board to communicate with the dead.

Does that make me a stand of a stand user, since the user I am talking for isn't banned? I'm his stand, hahaha.

Anyway, I'll share what oomf told me to say.
...

(Don't send this one. I will add "-----" to my responses)

I will send 2 messages due to Discord character limits.
-----

How is it possible that something like infinite speed requires so much effort? According to the wiki itself, they should be able to travel a finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance in finite time. Does this mean that most locations in the franchise are infinite? Besides, if the characters are able to reach such speed, then I assume that they must have the necessary reflexes to perceive it, or do they increase as they speed up?

I would say that's a good point, but I think it's still unnecessary to cross the stages and deal with the low level enemies, the protagonists should only confront the bosses.

I dunno how that is possible with infinite speed.
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The Master Spark can reach the speed of light and Sakuya surpasses it. Why are these treated as impressive when most characters can reach infinite speed?

Why would Marisa lie about this? In an attempt to trick Yorihime? Who a few moments ago had faced Sakuya?

Sakuya being faster than light isn't stated by a character, but by the narrator.


I wouldn't dare to say that you're accusing me, but I want to clarify that my intentions aren't to debunk this, but to understand how it works.
-----

Ehh I think this is off topic again lol

I'll just quickly say that if it's possible infinite speed characters fasters than others, I'm not sure exactly how it works (perhaps having more "infinity" than others??) but they exist, they exist, there are already many characters like that in the wiki

now I will return to the shadow for now

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

How is it possible that something like infinite speed requires so much effort? According to the wiki itself, they should be able to travel a finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance in finite time. Does this mean that most locations in the franchise are infinite? Besides, if the characters are able to reach such speed, then I assume that they must have the necessary reflexes to perceive it, or do they increase as they speed up?

I would say that's a good point, but I think it's still unnecessary to cross the stages and deal with the low level enemies, the protagonists should only confront the bosses.

I dunno how that is possible with infinite speed.

Just because a character crosses a certain distance instantly doesn't mean they're not exerting themselves.

No, not all locations in Touhou are infinite. Most of them are, yes.

Yes, characters are able to react to things at infinite speeds. The protagonists dodged danmaku while crossing the Sanzu and Kaguya's infinite corridor.

The Master Spark can reach the speed of light and Sakuya surpasses it. Why are these treated as impressive when most characters can reach infinite speed?

Why would Marisa lie about this? In an attempt to trick Yorihime? Who a few moments ago had faced Sakuya?

Sakuya being faster than light isn't stated by a character, but by the narrator.

It's not explicitly clear why Marisa said as much. It could be an attempt to intimidate Yorihime or boast about the speed of her laser. In any case, she definitely wasn't speaking objectively given how only a few panels later she contradicts her statement and dodges it.

I wouldn't dare to say that you're accusing me, but I want to clarify that my intentions aren't to debunk this, but to understand how it works.
-----

All good! Not trying to accuse you of everything. It's great you have such an open mindset.

 

[RethPo]

Unfortunately my next reply to saikou and others points will be delayed, VSBW did a silly and ******* wiped my draft off the face of the earth and I could only save some of it

Fyi imma not reading through every single bit of a post thats longer than the sanzu river when i deliberately underpay komachi for the ride

It was accepted under wiki standards, so it had to be infinite speed under wiki standards. It’s also blowing apart and then repiecing together an infinitely sized realm. To be frank I don’t see a way you can slice it that this isn’t infinite, especially being able to piece it all back together.

The reason im questioning is 1. thats sorta scaling to reality warping but ig thats sometimes accepted like with alien x? but 2. If i use high 3-A strength to shatter an infinite sized ball of glass, and the infinite pieces of shattered glass all separate several kilometers apart, while i shattered and then repieced the high 3-A object, i didnt make those shards cross an infinite distance. Itd just be range and ap.

 

[Deidalius]

Again, I am speaking for an offsite friend and yari yara. In case y'all haven't read the past pages.

...

Just because a character crosses a certain distance instantly doesn't mean they're not exerting themselves.

So this is quite complicated for the characters, do they also need to accelerate to reach infinite speed?

No, not all locations in Touhou are infinite. Most of them are, yes.

If most of them are infinite, then what makes the Infinite Corridor and the Sanzu River stand out among other locations? What use are they if most characters can reach that speed? Eirin seemed confident enough to continue using that method despite what had happened. I suppose the same applies to the Sanzu River.

I believe that in the Infinite Corridor there are some lamps that emit a trail of light due to the movement. Shouldn't the infinite speed make this impossible, or is this unique to the corridor?

Yes, characters are able to react to things at infinite speeds. The protagonists dodged danmaku while crossing the Sanzu and Kaguya's infinite corridor.

And doesn't this require the same effort as reaching infinite speed? An infinite perception should be quite useful for the characters, why don't they make use of it?

It's not explicitly clear why Marisa said as much. It could be an attempt to intimidate Yorihime or boast about the speed of her laser. In any case, she definitely wasn't speaking objectively given how only a few panels later she contradicts her statement and dodges it.

It could be. I would say that when her attack was reflected, Marisa had enough time to react, but the sequence shows her reaction just after it was reflected. It also looks like she had difficulty evading it, so I guess that supports the possibility that they need to accelerate to reach infinite speed.

And what about the narrator stating that Sakuya is faster than light? If most characters are much faster than light, then it shouldn't be treated as impressive.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I don't think mewheneasymodo meant that the characters need to accelerate to reach such speeds, but rather that despite the fact that they can travel distances instantly they still get tired and stuff like that, at least that's what I understood

For example, the fact that a character has enough speed to travel the entire planet in 0 seconds just by running, does not mean that such a feat will not make him strive, he is literally traveling million kilometers in 0 seconds, that must be very exhausting and requires a lot of exerting

and in fact, so far I haven't seen any character on the wiki that needs to accelerate to reach speeds like this, and if there are characters like that
I still very much doubt that this is the same case.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

I don't think mewheneasymodo meant that the characters need to accelerate to reach such speeds, but rather that despite the fact that they can travel distances instantly they still get tired and stuff like that, at least that's what I understood

For example, the fact that a character has enough speed to travel the entire planet in 0 seconds just by running, does not mean that such a feat will not make him strive, he is literally traveling million kilometers in 0 seconds, that must be very exhausting and requires a lot of exerting

and in fact, so far I haven't seen any character on the wiki that needs to accelerate to reach speeds like this, and if there are characters like that
I still very much doubt that this is the same case.

Pucci btw-

Jokes aside, to Marisa FTL debaters, there's a Discussion Rule about disregarding Marisa's statement about "Nothing is faster than light". ._.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Pucci btw-

Jokes aside, to Marisa FTL debaters, there's a Discussion Rule about disregarding Marisa's statement about "Nothing is faster than light". ._.

That's accelerating time, Touhou characters don't reach infinite speeds this way lol

And about the other thing, I never said that Marisa was FTL and it would be very funny if someone used that as an serious argument here lol

 

[Deidalius]

I'm speaking for my friend again and yari yara, I'll call him Fulano Metal. You know, I should probably give my take on this opinion, up here? Since I'm letting my friend talk a lot and stuff. But I feel lazyy.

....

I don't think mewheneasymodo meant that the characters need to accelerate to reach such speeds, but rather that despite the fact that they can travel distances instantly they still get tired and stuff like that, at least that's what I understood

For example, the fact that a character has enough speed to travel the entire planet in 0 seconds just by running, does not mean that such a feat will not make him strive, he is literally traveling million kilometers in 0 seconds, that must be very exhausting and requires a lot of exerting

and in fact, so far I haven't seen any character on the wiki that needs to accelerate to reach speeds like this, and if there are characters like that
I still very much doubt that this is the same case.

And how does their energy consumption work even though they don't need to accelerate? And what about those situations where the characters are in a hurry and need to move from one place to another, but they don't? Especially in manga, it's as if a lot of the places in Gensokyo are infinite, including the Human Village.
-----
Just send the message above.

Jokes aside, to Marisa FTL debaters, there's a Discussion Rule about disregarding Marisa's statement about "Nothing is faster than light". ._.

It's fine, I get the point, it was a statement made by a character, after all.

But what about Sakuya being faster than light? That one was stated by the narrator, is this a contradiction? According to the glossary, this falls under Word of God, right?

 

[Shmooply]

(I really don't see the point in replying to proxy posts, especially ones that are coming from an off-site individual who uses questions only someone new to powerscaling would say.)

 

[Speedblitzer50]

I'm speaking for my friend again and yari yara, I'll call him Fulano Metal. You know, I should probably give my take on this opinion, up here? Since I'm letting my friend talk a lot and stuff. But I feel lazyy.

....

And how does their energy consumption work even though they don't need to accelerate? And what about those situations where the characters are in a hurry and need to move from one place to another, but they don't? Especially in manga, it's as if a lot of the places in Gensokyo are infinite, including the Human Village.
-----

Honestly, the message is somewhat confusing, at least for me, and I would need to know what situations he is talking about specifically to know what to respond.

But tell that Funalito Metalcito that I'll respond tomorrow because I'm using the cell phone since I literally woke up and it's time to sleep lol, although if someone else answers for me it would be nice

 

[Speedblitzer50]

(I really don't see the point in replying to proxy posts, especially ones that are coming from an off-site individual who uses questions only someone new to powerscaling would say.)

I guess it's rude not to answer lol

The only thing is that this departed a little from the main theme of the CRT, that is.

Anyway, I'm going to go to sleep and I hope that when I wake up it turns out that this whole CRT was just a dream lmao

 

[Quibster]

Okay so she was putting them through a trial.

Test, trial—sure, it’s just semantics, but yes.

But this wasnt related to the river and it sounds like she wanted them to actually meet with kutaka instead of making the river almost inaccessible soooo...

This is both speculative and undermines the sequence of events: Kutaka's test took place in Higan after the protagonists had crossed the Sanzu River. It is not inherently tied to the crossing of the Sanzu itself.

Touhou 17 plot is clearly absent of Komachi and Yama though

Komachi (referred to as "the shinigami") is actually mentioned directly in WBaWC. Though she did not aid the protagonists in the crossing, which is outright verified in Youmu (Otter)'s route while crossing crossing the Sanzu River alone. Eiki is also shown in Youmu's ending too (scans in my previous post)

Not to mention in PoFV profile of Komachi, it is stated that the river's depth and width changes depending on her mood, not Yama's, to be precise

"Oh no, proof. Um, actually it completely varies depending on the mood of komachi"

And this is where the issues in the last entire page have arised; Noth took the statement about her mood here literally. Here's Komachi's PoFV profile (scanned below);

The Sanzu River is described as infinitely wide here, outright. The claim about Komachi’s mood affecting the river’s depth width refers specifically to her ability to ferry spirits across, not the river itself. It literally pertains to her generosity when transporting souls, not that her mood literally affects the actual river.

"The river is infinite by default unless proven otherwise"

That's not the precedent. You'd understand this if you reviewed the 3, going on 4, attempted speed downgrade CRTs.

Dude. Youre completely contradicting yourself. If something as uncontrollable as mood can affect the rivers size then theres no reason to call it infinite by default.

Both of you are, ironically. Please stop butting your heads together over this specific topic. It's needlessly bloating this thread.

Posts like this makes me wish this forum had a better image posting ui

Personally? I just want a complete makeover. The navy-patterned background reminds me of granny's wallpaper and everything else just hurts my eyes. It's kind of tacky.

The only instance of a "lower tier" scaling in speed to high tiers is moon rabbits who are possibly high 6-A so people like fairies dont have much reason to scale.

Even more circular reasoning in an already circular thread. Lovely.

Tanned Cirno and Clownpiece, both fairies, have demonstrated solid scaling by battling high-tier characters—Tanned Cirno against Okina and Clownpiece against the cast of LoLK, among other instances. Eternity, who is also an enemy god to Okina, purposefully granted Cirno power to fight her in the HSIFS Extra Stage. Additionally, the only other fairy mentioned on this wiki is Lily, who gets Spring Amps, and Dai. Even mid-tier characters like Reisen scale higher after their og appearances; in AOCF, she fights on equal terms with Mokou and is stated to have grown in strength since IN.

So, how can you claim there's no reason to scale? What is your basis for that blanket conclusion?

Throws a danmaku pattern infinitely faster than what you can react to at you. Very dogeable

This undermines the fact that characters operate under specific rules during combat; the Spellcard Rules.

Especially when this makes everybody and their mother in the entire series infinite speed including fairies and humans which is just a fat outlier.

Not all fairies have solid Infinite Speed ratings. Humans in general also don't have infinite speed; it's literally just Reimu, Marisa, and Sakuya.

Throws a danmaku pattern infinitely faster than what you can react to at you. Very dogeable

Spellcard fights need to have their attacks dodgeable as part of the rules so yes, characters can and would hold back their speed in non serious fights.

One of the people in this thread has already correctly pointed out; speed is not the focus of a spellcard duel; beautiful and flashy attacks through danmaku— spellcards. As Marisa puts it; "The most beautiful one wins. It's a very mental contest." (Scans from Ch. 13, SSiB);

Watatsuki no Yorihime goes onto win each duel in SSIB overwhelmingly; clearly showing that Spellcard Duels can both be one-sided and that restraint in speed is not a factor at all;

---

Responding more later as I see fit. Please cease these unnecessary side discussions, these topics have already been discussed so many times before. So many new, misleading things have already been spoken about erroneously in this thread. It's already a f****** headache.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why are time limits an argument here?

Just asking because most of the time in-verse timeframes don't match with the actual speeds.

Examples being DBS' Tournament of Power lasting 48 minutes (wouldn't make sense if they're all Septillion times FTL, it would be over in less than a second if they're portrayed as that fast), Jojo's Time Stop being 5/11 seconds long (if they're actually hundreds times FTL they'd do their deed way sooner).

Aka why shouldn't it be just a case of Zun not knowing the implications of his speed feats, given it's pretty common?

 

[RethPo]

The main issue with scaling everyone in speed based on spellcards is that it leads to massive outliers.
It means junko and hecatia = marisa = cirno = fairies of light = normal humans (Including some from outside world)
Theres no way youre expecting me to believe that infinite speed is valid when everybody in existence has it

 

[StrymULTRA]

The main issue with scaling everyone in speed based on spellcards is that it leads to massive outliers.
It means junko and hecatia = marisa = cirno = fairies of light = normal humans (Including some from outside world)
Theres no way youre expecting me to believe that infinite speed is valid when everybody in existence has it

Did I say that? No.

I am saying that making infinite speed invalid coz of timeframe is silly. Scaling however is something else.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I know the verse is shit but wasn't this all debunked in a past thread... The irony here lmao. Gow is getting that karmic retribution.

 

[Robo432343]

wasn't this all debunked in a past thread...

yes
such as here, this one, this thread, this one, this one here, also this one, and finally this.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

yes
such as here, this one, this thread, this one, this one here, also this one, and finally this.

Holy shit, this IS the third opposition thread. A Discussion Rule may take place if this gets rejected.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Holy shit, this IS the third opposition thread. A Discussion Rule may take place if this gets rejected.

The verse was just released from a rule that banned all CRT's being made for the verse just a little bit ago, which is beyond me a rule like that ever got passed in the first place. Prob be best rules being made to restrict thread making be halted for a while.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

The verse was just released from a rule that banned all CRT's being made for the verse just a little bit ago, which is beyond me a rule like that ever got passed in the first place. Prob be best rules being made to restrict thread making be halted for a while.

It was solely because Fuji had a huge blog to apply her researches through all 2hu content before she, well..

 

[Quibster]

Yeah, Fuji was central to the planned revisions, and laid out a plan to address every outdated page that this verse has on the wiki. This is why the thread rule was accepted, and naturally overturned after her ban.

 

[Deidalius]

The verse was just released from a rule that banned all CRT's being made for the verse just a little bit ago, which is beyond me a rule like that ever got passed in the first place. Prob be best rules being made to restrict thread making be halted for a while.

That CRT ban was dumb and I don't see how it's related to Infinite speed Touhou.