• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Top 15 Strongest Non-Smurfs for Every Tier Continuation

Status
Not open for further replies.
Fair, then he gets the spot
Yeah it's basically that you need mind/soul destruction to kill Deathwing in his Cataclysm key if you lack Regen neg, combine that with a ludicrously rare ability,(Mind Possession-- not Mind Control or anything like that) a wall of resistances(that don't have layers), and the fact even touching him is deadly if your heat resistance is somehow dogshit when you're a 5-B and yeah
 
I could only find a 3A deathwing, could you send the profile
You're either lying or think Heroes of the Storm is Deathwing's original verse.


Which is it?
 
You're either lying or think Heroes of the Storm is Deathwing's original verse.


Which is it?
I don’t know the character and just googled it…? The only results were someone's blog post and the 3A version so I just asked
 
where should we put this guy
 
where should we put this guy
Depends, but should 2-C for me
 
where should we put this guy
They MAY become 11-D
 
Instead they should be put in the 3-C list.
I tried to read the White Queen profile and blog, and I'm pretty sure Mujin should be above her. Odin is currently at number 2 but his profile got deleted (at least the one linked in the thread) so Mujin could take his place for now I think.
 
I tried to read the White Queen profile and blog, and I'm pretty sure Mujin should be above her.
Don't really see how he would kill her. Her immortality is pretty good. The Core Element seems like the obvious choice, but with Metaphysical Aspect guidelines in place, I feel comfortable saying that I don't see that kill her. Body, Mind and Soul are all things that can be attacked in her verse and her immortality makes her immune to getting killed by anything in her verse. (With one exception) Generally, you need to be beyond the influence of the laws of nature and the laws governing the supernatural, as she made the laws exclude all means of killing her.

No idea which abilities he can specifically use in his 3-C key btw. I figure all, of the first 2 P&A keys, but not well or something?

Don't see a real defense against
Curse Creation: The White Queen can create non-physical, lethal curses that automatically attack her opponent without her needing to aim at them. They can not only attack the opponent at any position in space, but if the opponent attempts to escape through time, the curse will chase them even there. The curses could not even be stopped by the Colorless Little Girl's barriers. Originally, they could be cancelled out through the curse jamming properties of the sun, the planets of the solar system and the stars of the zodiac signs, but the White Queen has since adapted her curses to these, making them unaffected by this kind of interference.
either? Or altering the past in general.

And there's her passive Charisma as well, which I see no resistance to.

I couldn't find anything about Yomoji's layers getting accapted. And he can't resist Hajime's hax like CM type 2 and 1.
Too lazy to debate this right now. He can have the spot until the revision where I give Yomoji the option to tap into 3-B reality warping.
 
Isn't White Queen confirmed to be above 100% Othinus in the Kazuma Kamachi Riot?And it is also mentioned that she can destroy the entire universe in 10 ^ -44 seconds, and there are descriptions in the original work that easily mention the entire universe (the universe is at least H3a because there are infinite numbers of stars inside)
 
Isn't White Queen confirmed to be above 100% Othinus in the Kazuma Kamachi Riot?And it is also mentioned that she can destroy the entire universe in 10 ^ -44 seconds, and there are descriptions in the original work that easily mention the entire universe (the universe is at least H3a because there are infinite numbers of stars inside)
Non canon
 
Don't really see how he would kill her. Her immortality is pretty good. The Core Element seems like the obvious choice, but with Metaphysical Aspect guidelines in place, I feel comfortable saying that I don't see that kill her. Body, Mind and Soul are all things that can be attacked in her verse and her immortality makes her immune to getting killed by anything in her verse. (With one exception) Generally, you need to be beyond the influence of the laws of nature and the laws governing the supernatural, as she made the laws exclude all means of killing her.
How exactly does that work? I tried reading everything but her profile is kinda all over the place.
No idea which abilities he can specifically use in his 3-C key btw. I figure all, of the first 2 P&A keys, but not well or something?
Oh yeah his profile needs major reworking but there's exactly 2 of us working on the entire verse so it's taking time 😭.
He can use everything except his red wings section and Satan abilities
Don't see a real defense against
Can't he just destroy those.
And there's her passive Charisma as well, which I see no resistance to.
Isn't that just passive mind manipulation? Which Mujin resists. This
  • Charisma: The White Queen possesses a powerful level of charisma that passively compels people to bow down and worship her when she's around, without her actually doing anything. Even summoners, who freely call in and control actual gods and legendary monsters, consider the White Queen the supreme being of their world, with many actually praying to and worshipping her. Only humans like Kyousuke and others who possess incredible wills can stand against her, and even they have to be on their guard constantly to not give in to her. As for Materials, Regulation and Divine-class Material utterly refuse to even try to oppose her in battle, with only other Unexplored-classes being able to fight her. Her charisma is not supernatural, it appears to come directly from her beauty and level of power.
Sounds exactly like Mujins passive mind hax that make people bow down and submit to him.
Passive Mind Manipulation (His presence makes people give up and completely submit to him,
And Mujin resists that.

Anyway Mujin doesn't necessarily have to kill her to win. His go-to opening move will be to command her to kill herself, and his verbal mind manipulation is layered so she shouldn't resist it.
He can also seal her with Mt Oheng, absorb her concept/core element, rewrite her concept, etc.
I also don’t see resistance to Mujins passive fear manip which is strong enough to make people fall unconscious.
 
How exactly does that work? I tried reading everything but her profile is kinda all over the place.
She modified the laws of the universe such that nothing under their influence can defeat her. You would need something independent of them to kill her and then you need to have that something remove her influence over the universe, as otherwise that will still resurrect her.
And even then you would have to kill her and her sister Wisdom simultaneously, as they define each other into existence.
Oh yeah his profile needs major reworking but there's exactly 2 of us working on the entire verse so it's taking time 😭.
He can use everything except his red wings section and Satan abilities
So no regen for example, yes?
Can't he just destroy those.
Just destroy a curse? One that attacks him in the past? How?
He also seems to generally have no resistance to time abilities, which coupled with the WQ having precog is also lethal.
Isn't that just passive mind manipulation? Which Mujin resists. This

Sounds exactly like Mujins passive mind hax that make people bow down and submit to him.

And Mujin resists that.
It's not mind manipulation. It's explicitly said to not supernatural or a skill at all, but pure social influencing (charisma and beauty). Hence mind resistance is no counter.
Anyway Mujin doesn't necessarily have to kill her to win. His go-to opening move will be to command her to kill herself, and his verbal mind manipulation is layered so she shouldn't resist it.
He can also seal her with Mt Oheng, absorb her concept/core element, rewrite her concept, etc.
I also don’t see resistance to Mujins passive fear manip which is strong enough to make people fall unconscious.
Her passive power null should be useful here.
Don't think rewriting or absorbing her core element is going to work. That's mind, soul and body, but the WQ can life without those. Fundamentally, as an Unexplored-class material, she is a manifestation of a law of reality herself. To that comes that he can really only target one of her 512 forms at once.
And his fear manip only says something about general dread? Idk.
Can the mind manipulation target non-gods?
 
She modified the laws of the universe such that nothing under their influence can defeat her.
Mujin has law manip resistance so shouldn't that just like, negate that? Or he could just rewrite the laws of the universe to make her killable again since he has conceptual law manip.
So no regen for example, yes?
Regen yes, just not high godly. I think someone recently messed with it but he should have like mid-high regen even without Satan.
Just destroy a curse? One that attacks him in the past? How?
The description says it can follow you in the past, not attack you in the past. Wouldn't that kidna make it 4D which would in turn make it smurf?
He also seems to generally have no resistance to time abilities, which coupled with the WQ having precog is also lethal.
He should (and will soon). Also Mujin resists precog.
It's not mind manipulation. It's explicitly said to not supernatural or a skill at all, but pure social influencing (charisma and beauty). Hence mind resistance is no counter.
So Mujin can just like, get past it through willpower alone?
Her passive power null should be useful here.
Mujin resists power null.
Don't think rewriting or absorbing her core element is going to work. That's mind, soul and body, but the WQ can life without those.
It's also concept and information. Also absorbing it would just straight up give him WQs abilities making it a stalemate at worst.
And his fear manip only says something about general dread? Idk.
Yeah fear hax were extremely underdeveloped before I got and I couldn't fully rework the profiles yet. So far I got them to be layered but didn't do much more.

The fear manip can knock people unconscious and make them lose the will to fight.
Can the mind manipulation target non-gods?
Yes. The profiles wording is not the best rn but the ability was never limited to gods. Mujin is just an anti-god racist so he mainly targeted them 💀
 
Mujin has law manip resistance so shouldn't that just like, negate that? Or he could just rewrite the laws of the universe to make her killable again since he has conceptual law manip.
I see nothing on his profile that would suggest that he can ignore or rewrite all laws of the universe simultaneously, much less on an interdimensional scale. Laws include those which rule over fate and causality, which he has no resistance to. The White Queen indicates that even logic is part of said laws.
Like, his only law manipulation feat listed is little more than a magical binding of three races of living creatures. That's really far off from what he would need to accomplish here.
Regen yes, just not high godly. I think someone recently messed with it but he should have like mid-high regen even without Satan.
Well, high-godly would be debatable, but for just mid-high the WQs resurrection negation definitely just ignore that.
The description says it can follow you in the past, not attack you in the past. Wouldn't that kidna make it 4D which would in turn make it smurf?
Time powers that affect the past are not considered smurf, no. It's only smurf if you rewrite the whole timeline through power.
The White Queen can also change the past at will btw. She technically does not need to use the curse.
He should (and will soon).
Time stop in particular?
Also Mujin resists precog.
Then Wisdom (the omniscience counterpart to the WQs omnipotence) would still give the WQ intel over all Mujin ever did.
So Mujin can just like, get past it through willpower alone?
In theory yes. In practice, good luck.
Gods and professional soldiers immediately submit to her.
Kyousuke was raised in a controlled environment by a huge genius whose whole goal was to indoctrinate him so that he will never abandon a goal once it is set. He was raised into a human "precision guided missle" and gave himself the goal to defeat the Queen. The White Queen killed his mother and sister. Then he got adopted in a new family and the White Queen killed most of that, his friends and his teacher as well. Additionally, Kyousuke is convinced that the White Queen is at fault for half of all problems in the world.
And yet, despite all of that, he is said to have to constantly be at high alert to not get pulled into the White Queen's charisma.
If a basically bloodlusted person with a huge personal grudge, ample rational reason to want to kill her and special training to not submit is at risk of getting overwhelmed... well, how will it be for Mujin who has no real stakes in this battle and no particular reason to harm her?
Mujin resists power null.
That resistance seemed to be related to absorption? Or how does it look like in practice.
Given, even an effect not cancelled by the WQs null was still weakened, so it would still have an effect even with resistance.
It's also concept and information. Also absorbing it would just straight up give him WQs abilities making it a stalemate at worst.
I don't think he would get much of the WQs abilities. Like, first he would only get one of her 512 forms as the rest are not really present. Then he would not get her relationship to Wisdom. He would not get anything related to her being a living law, as that's not something he could absorb. He can not geta anything that is a result of her accomplishments, i.e. no rule over the laws of the universe, as her servants would stay loyal to her. And he can not get the sword of truth, as that is constructed to always make the WQ win, even against her own will.
If he tries that he just gets suprise killed while he thinks he won.
Yeah fear hax were extremely underdeveloped before I got and I couldn't fully rework the profiles yet. So far I got them to be layered but didn't do much more.

The fear manip can knock people unconscious and make them lose the will to fight.
That looks like someone intimidating fodder. Doubt it will do much against the WQ, who doesn't even get nervous when she gets one-sidedly stomped.
Yes. The profiles wording is not the best rn but the ability was never limited to gods. Mujin is just an anti-god racist so he mainly targeted them 💀
Any evidence for that and for it to be his leading move in a majority of his fights?
Given, the sword of truth may just kill him before he gets that far or shortly after. And the WQ could still prevent herself hearing his command (e.g. by letting her presence erase spacetime around her). If he does that at all, 'cause charisma.
 
I see nothing on his profile that would suggest that he can ignore or rewrite all laws of the universe simultaneously, much less on an interdimensional scale. Laws include those which rule over fate and causality, which he has no resistance to. The White Queen indicates that even logic is part of said laws.
Like, his only law manipulation feat listed is little more than a magical binding of three races of living creatures. That's really far off from what he would need to accomplish here.
Mujin could casually break a law that made it physically impossible for Gods to interact with humans. Like the universe would literally stop them from doing so. It also has interdimensional range as the taboo works across all 3 dimensions (human, monster, and heavenly). We actually see it get changed 2 other times with direct results in the other dimensions.
Well, high-godly would be debatable, but for just mid-high the WQs resurrection negation definitely just ignore that.
Mid high is definitely still useful ngl.
Time powers that affect the past are not considered smurf, no. It's only smurf if you rewrite the whole timeline through power.
The White Queen can also change the past at will btw.
Mujins is actually aware of the past being affected. When Dean tried to pick the right future from the past Mujin in the future became aware of him.
Time stop in particular?
Yeah.
Then Wisdom (the omniscience counterpart to the WQs omnipotence) would still give the WQ intel over all Mujin ever did.
Would her omniscience include other series?
In theory yes. In practice, good luck.
Gods and professional soldiers immediately submit to her.
Mujin already kinda beat something like that with Tataghata multiple times. Whenever Mujin wanted to give up and submit to his opponent the prophets inside his mind pushed him through those feelings.
Kyousuke was raised in a controlled environment by a huge genius whose whole goal was to indoctrinate him so that he will never abandon a goal once it is set. He was raised into a human "precision guided missle" and gave himself the goal to defeat the Queen. The White Queen killed his mother and sister. Then he got adopted in a new family and the White Queen killed most of that, his friends and his teacher as well. Additionally, Kyousuke is convinced that the White Queen is at fault for half of all problems in the world.
And yet, despite all of that, he is said to have to constantly be at high alert to not get pulled into the White Queen's charisma.
If a basically bloodlusted person with a huge personal grudge, ample rational reason to want to kill her and special training to not submit is at risk of getting overwhelmed... well, how will it be for Mujin who has no real stakes in this battle and no particular reason to harm her?
Yeah and Mujins entire character and backstory is about his ridiculous hatred towards gods. Mujins entire motivation for everything is that his lover was killed by the gods while trying to revive the supreme god, and the fact that gods have enslaved humanity for billions of years. He literally ends up committing a mass genocide of the entire god race and even went out of his way to kill Mori who has saved the entire human race (who Mujin was obsessed with) multiple times just because Mori is technically a god.

Yet Tataghata - the literal supreme god who caused all of this, who enslaved the human race for billions of years, and now wants to basically do it again, was capable of making Mujin submit to him. And yet the prophets pushed him through those feelings.
That resistance seemed to be related to absorption? Or how does it look like in practice.
Actually there was a thread where gods having resistance to Sujins power null was accepted, I just didn't make the God Physiology verse-ability. Sujins power null basically just makes you completely incapable of using your abilities with a single glance.
I don't think he would get much of the WQs abilities. Like, first he would only get one of her 512 forms as the rest are not really present. Then he would not get her relationship to Wisdom. He would not get anything related to her being a living law, as that's not something he could absorb.
He absorbed Satans core element. Core elements are concepts and information. I really don't see why he couldn't just gain everything she has.
He can not geta anything that is a result of her accomplishments
Why not?
That looks like someone intimidating fodder. Doubt it will do much against the WQ, who doesn't even get nervous when she gets one-sidedly stomped.
Because fear manipulation is canonically a skill of every fighter in GoH.
It's hax that affects the instincts of the target 💀. WQ has no fear manip resistance and Mujin can straight up knock her unconscious, there's literally no way for her to get around this....
Any evidence for that and for it to be his leading move in a majority of his fights?
It's his opening move.
Given, the sword of truth may just kill him before he gets that far or shortly after. And the WQ could still prevent herself hearing his command (e.g. by letting her presence erase spacetime around her).
He can make people hear his voice inside their minds and has interdimensional range.
Actually both his telepathy and fear manipulation have interdimensional range so running away won't save her from getting her mind crushed under his fear hax and from getting commanded to kill herself.
 
Characters from The Fairly OddParents! for spots in Low 7-B and 6-C. More specifically, the non-fairy magic keys of characters (As fairy magic has low multiversal range and is therefore smurf) like Shirley and the Eliminator, the former of which is able to automatically adapt to any attack he gets hit with/is facing while the latter has both mid-high regeneration and absorption to gain the powers of weapons it sucks into its void. Both of them are also Massively FTL in speed, so they are sure to blitz a good amount of the list assuming they don't get screwed over by characters with passive hax.

Already in the Low 7-B spot, I can see them placing high, most likely up to 7th place. Basically:
  • Black Fire doesn't seem haxxed enough to really do much against Shirley's adaption and the Eliminator's absorption
  • World Gobbler has its madness type 2 get ignored through Shirley's adaption and the Eliminator being a robot
  • Flect Turn has his passive attack reflection bypassed by either Shirley nullifying his quirk or the Eliminator simply sucking him into his void
  • Clover has her luck bypassed by Shirley's adaption and the Eliminator's duplication/summoning of more Eliminators to overwhelm her
  • Enel doesn't have an answer to Shirley's adaption or the Eliminator's absorption
 
Characters from Fire Emblem for a spot in Low 1-C.
They are already accepted in the other list but aren't smurf.
They are 6D with the biggest AP of the tier and a pletora of hax like Reality Warping or Transmutation for Freya, Existance Erasure and Time Manipulation for Seiðr, passive Death hax for Hel and more.
Plus they all resist, Death Manipulation, Corrosion Inducement, Chaos Manipulation,Space-Time Manipulation, Reality Warping, Causality Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Law Manipulation and Soul Manipulation.
 
Mujin Park and timeskip Satan should be removed from 4-A as they just got upgraded (#3 spot)
Instead they should be put in the 3-C list.
I tried to read the White Queen profile and blog, and I'm pretty sure Mujin should be above her.
Bumping this. Idk if we came to a conclusion on the WQ stuff but if we still disagree we can either have them share the spot or open a thread
 
Black Hole tied for the 4th spot in High 3-A. In his maximum-sized form, he literally becomes as big as his universe which is infinite in size, combined with the fact that he has passive deconstruction for his event horizon. Due to how he is infinitely large, SBA would end up starting his opponent literally inside of him which would kill them instantly if they don't resist deconstruction. As such:
  • Pokémon characters get instantly deconstructed due to the lack of deconstruction resistance (+the Ghost types have their incorporeality negated with NPI that is able to interact with nonexistent beings)
  • Kurzgesagt Narrator gets instantly deconstructed due to the lack of deconstruction resistance (+gets its incorporeality negated with NPI that is able to interact with nonexistent beings)
  • Monica Pinkston gets instantly deconstructed due to the lack of deconstruction resistance
  • W.I.T.C.H. characters get instantly deconstructed due to the lack of deconstruction resistance
  • Sauron gets instantly deconstructed due to the lack of deconstruction resistance (+gets his incorporeality negated with NPI that is able to interact with nonexistent beings)
  • Mônica gets instantly deconstructed due to the lack of deconstruction resistance
Black Hole would ultimately stop at Godcat, who ends up being an inconclusive match for him as he can't interact with Godcat's Abstract Existence while Godcat doesn't have the range to affect Black Hole's infinitely large size combined with the fact that he's 0-dimensional. Hence why I suggest they should be tied for that spot.
 
Last edited:
Black Hole tied for the 4th spot in High 3-A. In his maximum-sized form, he literally becomes as big as his universe which is infinite in size, combined with the fact that he has passive deconstruction for his event horizon. Due to how he is infinitely large, SBA would end up starting his opponent literally inside of him which would kill them instantly if they don't resist deconstruction. As such:
  • Pokémon characters get instantly deconstructed due to the lack of deconstruction resistance (+the Ghost types have their incorporeality negated with NPI that is able to interact with nonexistent beings)
  • Kurzgesagt Narrator gets instantly deconstructed due to the lack of deconstruction resistance (+gets its incorporeality negated with NPI that is able to interact with nonexistent beings)
  • Sauron gets instantly deconstructed due to the lack of deconstruction resistance (+gets his incorporeality negated with NPI that is able to interact with nonexistent beings)
Black Hole would ultimately stop at Godcat, who ends up being an inconclusive match for him as he can't interact with Godcat's Abstract Existence while Godcat doesn't have the range to affect Black Hole's infinitely large size combined with the fact that he's 0-dimensional. Hence why I suggest they should be tied for that spot.
Non existent NPI doesn't work against Pokemon, Narrator or Sauron. For Pkmn you need spiritual (for Lunala as a Ghost) although Necrozma would be affected as its made from Light, Sauron is based on will(so abstract) and Narrator is based on... Uh... Idk lol, but not non-existent. He ain't deconstructing them.

That said, Lunala can't beat it anyways. While it has portals to travel to infinite universes, the portals are rather small, so can't BFR a High 3-A-thicc target.

Sauron and Narrator I don't know with enough detail to argue for, however.
 
Narrator is packing plothax so take a wild guess

Sauron has CM1 and the haxes required to deal with Black Hole otherwise
 
I think making a rock sleep, is a little bit different FROM MAKING A BORDELINE 0 DIMENSIONAL ******* BLACKHOLE SLEEP, Also..I mean, they can't affect him, and he will just wake up
That, and the fact he's the size of a literal infinite universe to the point where I don't ever recall moves in Pokemon affecting people of this size.
Sauron has CM1 and the haxes required to deal with Black Hole otherwise
...except his range is only thousands of kilometers, which is ineffective against an infinitely-large being.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top