Toneri upgrade?

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

3.A vague incoherent and illogical statement further proved by the author ,the characters and showings as he gained a 9 Tomoe Rinne sharingan i heard no such thing but sure.And I wasn't aware of Yhwachs feat being argued to be 20 minutes I assumed 10 minutes or less from my perspective on things but that's just me I guess.

If you're referring to the valley of screams from the non canon movie then I don't know how that's supposed to be accepted in anyway I mean...it is non canon after all.But it is odd that kubo added it to his canon story I will say that much.

Lastly it's no attack but despit that it can be scaled to AP based off the energy required to do such a thing.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

4.So? The time was clearly not disorted which is solid evidence.

Calc is valid.

 

[Anonymousse21]

If the yield was 30 exatons why did the moon only move apart a tiny bit? The GPE calc is much better because it involves less assumptions and the result isn't ridiculously low given the context

Not to mention in the manga not only was the lore and world mechanics from memories of nobody referenced but the actual events that happened in the movie were referenced too. Ichigo says hes been to the valley of screams before and the only time hes every done that was in the movie. Also the scenery shown in the panel is exactly the same as the area the final battle took place in memories of nobody

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Like assuming the moon isn't hollow?

No it's not it's a pretty loose calc as the foundation itself is invalid

 

[Illuminati478]

"3.A vague incoherent and illogical statement further proved by the author ,the characters and showings as he gained a 9 Tomoe Rinne sharingan i heard no such thing but sure."

doesn't say a single thing about his raw power, only about the techniques available to him. face it, its not a statement used to describe power, it was further proved by the mangaka to not be so by making madara's best feats weaker by far from the powerscaled stat he recieved.

"If you're referring to the valley of screams from the non canon movie then I don't know how that's supposed to be accepted in anyway I mean...it is non canon after all.But it is odd that kubo added it to his canon story I will say that much."

author says its canon through his characters, then its canon, his decision not ours.

"Lastly it's no attack but despit that it can be scaled to AP based off the energy required to do such a thing."

yes, had it happaned in a short enough timeframe than it would have, however its a long process, so it can't be used as such.

"4.So? The time was clearly not disorted which is solid evidence. Calc is valid."

no, we do not accept cinematic timeframes , no matter how closely do they seem to represent real timeframes.

also, Anonymousse221 point is also correct. If it did pack that much energy, the moon would have "exploded" for lack of a better word, it didn't.

 

[UncleSpaceman]

Yhwachs Moon-Level feat takes place over 20 minutes iirc

 

[Illuminati478]

"Yhwachs Moon-Level feat takes place over 20 minutes iirc"

more like 2-3 minutes...

 

[Basilisk1995]

Well,for all intents and purpouses The previous calc for Moon-Splitting is the best one.If more than Moon's GBE amount of energy was used to split the moon then the two split parts would have traveled fast enough to overcome moon's GBE and the two split parts would never come back together and just keep going further away from each other.That did not happen The split parts stopped going away.And the previous calc uses the distance the two split parts go from each other.Which is the best way to calc the feat.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

3.It does actually Madaras power increased by several times over after acquiring a second rinnegan iirc based off his use of limbo.And once Madara awakens rinne sharingan he performs techniques straight out of Kaguya Otsutsukis Arsenal to boot.Jutsu require chakra something known in the series.

The location is canon but the movie isn't that simple it's been retconned iirc and it isn't even written by kubo.

.......Still not buying that but K.

The timeframe is legit and I proved it .Cinematic timeframe is disregarded for having time lapses and disortion if I'm not mistaken in this case it doesn't and should be valid.So there is no reason it shouldn't be.

Our calc is flawed obviously I already pointed that out

 

[UncleSpaceman]

Well,for all intents and purpouses The previous calc for Moon-Splitting is the best one.If more than Moon's GBE amount of energy was used to split the moon then the two split parts would have traveled fast enough to overcome moon's GBE and the two split parts would never come back together and just keep going further away from each other.That did not happen The split parts stopped going away.And the previous calc uses the distance the two split parts go from each other.Which is the best way to calc the feat.

Iv'e said this before, it's called plot...

It's the same reason that Beerus & Goku's multi-galaxy punch didn't destroy the earth. You need to apply that logic everywhere, if you're going to use it.

 

[Illuminati478]

i never said i agreed to that particular DBZ upgrade...also if we ignore every piece of physics, in what way you can say that any physics formula, from GPE to KE, can be applied here? this is a bit of classic physics that you can't ignore if you want meaningful results//

 

[Basilisk1995]

"Yhwachs Moon-Level feat takes place over 20 minutes iirc"
more like 2-3 minutes...

OK.Here it is.You would not accept the idea that Toneri pushed the moon towards earth(like my ball-throwing example) and did not need to put any more energy afterwards.(This idea is what was used in the calculation in question since the calc uses constant velocity for the moon moving and uses .5*m*v^2 for the energy).So if you by any chance accept the calc than you also have to accept the idea.

But anyone with some common sense should understand this idea is inconsistent and absurd taking into acount what happened in the movie.Because if Toneri did move the moon at constant velocity then even after Toneri was defeated the should have kept coming towards earth.The moon came towards earth only as long as Toneri had his Tenseigan.Which led you to believe that Toneri contantly invested energy to move the moon.

If you think thats what happened then the moon should also have constantly accelerated towards earth.Then we would have to change the entire method for the calculation.The calculation in NF uses contant velocity.Using constant acceleration would yield a much lower and different result.And probably someone should redo the calc using that idea.

 

[Illuminati478]

"Yhwachs Moon-Level feat takes place over 20 minutes iirc"
more like 2-3 minutes...

OK.Here it is.You would not accept the idea that Toneri pushed the moon towards earth(like my ball-throwing example) and did not need to put any more energy afterwards.(This idea is what was used in the calculation in question since the calc uses constant velocity for the moon moving and uses .5*m*v^2 for the energy).So if you by any chance accept the calc than you also have to accept the idea.
But anyone with some common sense should understand this idea is inconsistent and absurd taking into acount what happened in the movie.Because if Toneri did move the moon at constant velocity then even after Toneri was defeated the should have kept coming towards earth.The moon came towards earth only as long as Toneri had his Tenseigan.Which led you to believe that Toneri contantly invested energy to move the moon.

If you think thats what happened then the moon should also have constantly accelerated towards earth.Then we would have to change the entire method for the calculation.The calculation in NF uses contant velocity.Using constant acceleration would yield a much lower and different result.And probably someone should redo the calc using that idea.

what? but i do treat Yhwach feat as a process, just a very short one, th problem isn't that the moon moving feat it is a process, just that its a process that takes to long to complete...

 

[Basilisk1995]

""""what? but i do treat Yhwach feat as a process, just a very short one, th problem isn't that the moon moving feat it is a process, just that its a process that takes to long to complete.."""

The idea is very simple. If you keep investing energy into a moving object its speed would increase (basic physics) meaning the object would accelerate.If you assume the speed was constant and never increased then The inergy was input into moving the object at one-go.Not over a period of time.

 

[UncleSpaceman]

i never said i agreed to that particular DBZ upgrade...also if we ignore every piece of physics, in what way you can say that any physics formula, from GPE to KE, can be applied here? this is a bit of classic physics that you can't ignore if you want meaningful results//

What? No, simply the fact that the moon wasn't destroyed because, plot, should not be a reason to invalidate a calc. Toneri still performed the feat, but the moon was not destroyed because, plot.

 

[Basilisk1995]

If you invest energy over a period of time then the same would happen to the objects speed.First it would be slow then its speed would increase due to acceleration and once you stop giving in any more energy then The object keeps moving at a constant velocity.The calc in question uses constant velocity.To do that giving energy at one-go is enough.(I personally don't agree this is what happened).

 

[Illuminati478]

""""what? but i do treat Yhwach feat as a process, just a very short one, th problem isn't that the moon moving feat it is a process, just that its a process that takes to long to complete.."""
The idea is very simple. If you keep investing energy into a moving object its speed would increase (basic physics) meaning the object would accelerate.If you assume the speed was constant and never increased then The inergy was input into moving the object at one-go.Not over a period of time.

i... don't get you, could you please rephrase...

 

[Illuminati478]

"What? No, simply the fact that the moon wasn't destroyed because, plot, should not be a reason to invalidate a calc. Toneri still performed the feat, but the moon was not destroyed because, plot."

umm... yes it is, its certainly have been for a few other calcs...

 

[Illuminati478]

If you invest energy over a period of time then the same would happen to the objects speed.First it would be slow then its speed would increase due to acceleration and once you stop giving in any more energy then The object keeps moving at a constant velocity.The calc in question uses constant velocity.To do that giving energy at one-go is enough.(I personally don't agree this is what happened).

i can't argue two at once. listen, the problem is as follows: Yhwach feat is a short process, Toneri's is a very long one, thats the difference and that is the problem...that and the fact it violates some classic physics...

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

The first calc isn't acceptable ,if the attack possesed such energy the two parts of the moon would already be flying through space something that didn't happen.

About the second calc.

1.In order to "drop" the moon you need to stop it so the energy required to that would be equal to it's KE which is Multi Continent level

2.The calc doesn't take into account the Earth's gravitational pull

3.Even if the calc is correct the feat is done over time and it requires pret time and yeah a moon to spare so it shouldn't directly translate into Toneri's AP.

 

[Illuminati478]

The first calc isn't acceptable ,if the attack possesed such energy the two parts of the moon would already be flying through space something that didn't happen.
About the second calc.

1.In order to "drop" the moon you need to stop it so the energy required to that would be equal to it's KE which is Multi Continent level

2.The calc doesn't take into account the Earth's gravitational pull

3.Even if the calc is correct the feat is done over time and it requires pret time and yeah a moon to spare so it shouldn't directly translate into Toneri's AP.

finally i'm not alone in this, i was tired arguing alone...

 

[Basilisk1995]

What happens when you drive a car??If you burn fuel=Speed increase.Say you are going at 20 kmph.Now you burn some fuel then you would go at higher, say 25 kmph.Now you may argue that even when driving a car at 60 kmph always it still burns fuel.But this is simply because the roar on which you are driving is always trying to slow down the car because of Frictio.If there was no friction then once your car reaches 60 kmph then the speed would never decrease/increase if some outside element is working here.At that point even if you have no fuel in the car tank the car would still keep going at 60 kmph.

The moon is in space.There is no friction there.So once the moon started moving at a constant speed you do not need to give any more energy into it.The moon would keep coming towards earth using the energy you have input the first time.Not requiring any more energy.

But after Toneri's defeat the moon stopped.This has to be PIS.Cause no matter how you move the moon, at the time Toneri lost, the moon had a speed towards earth and nobody did anything about it. OR moon-moving is a special ability of Tenseigan users which can't be normally calculated using simple physics.

 

[Illuminati478]

What happens when you drive a car??If you burn fuel=Speed increase.Say you are going at 20 kmph.Now you burn some fuel then you would go at higher, say 25 kmph.Now you may argue that even when driving a car at 60 kmph always it still burns fuel.But this is simply because the roar on which you are driving is always trying to slow down the car because of Frictio.If there was no friction then once your car reaches 60 kmph then the speed would never decrease/increase if some outside element is working here.At that point even if you have no fuel in the car tank the car would still keep going at 60 kmph.
The moon is in space.There is no friction there.So once the moon started moving at a constant speed you do not need to give any more energy into it.The moon would keep coming towards earth using the energy you have input the first time.Not requiring any more energy.

But after Toneri's defeat the moon stopped.This has to be PIS.Cause no matter how you move the moon, at the time Toneri lost, the moon had a speed towards earth and nobody did anything about it. OR moon-moving is a special ability of Tenseigan users which can't be normally calculated using simple physics.

there are other forces at work that can stop and slow down and affect movment in outer space, gravity, magnetic forces and others, there are plenty of physical reasons for a need in the constant effort to move the moon for it to move....

 

[Basilisk1995]

'''Yes'''.I agree.In this case only Earth's Gravitational Pull is what gonna come into play. Which will make Toneri's job easier.And ultimately yield a lower result.That's why I am saying please '''redo the calc''' taking into account earth's gravitational pull.

 

[Illuminati478]

ok, now i get you, however, the fact remains its still a process, no matter how low the result will become it won't matter, it could be wall level for all i care, its still doesn't matter as it isn't applicable to DC, we know that earth gravity would have an affect once the moon gets out of orbit, we say there is no difference either way because that is not the main issue here...

 

[Antvasima]

I have upgraded Toneri according to this calculation: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Nibbler3100/Toneri_pulls_the_moon_out_of_orbit

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

This is resolved then as far as I'm aware

 

[Basilisk1995]

There is one more thing which needs to be resolved before closing this thread.Which is Naruto in the Last.The Toneri accepted calc is 8.75 exatons. Now Naruto overpowered Toneri in his weakest he could possibly be at that time(he didn't have kurama + he didn't use any 6 path power or even basic sage mood nor even rasengan)Naruto overpowered toneri's attack with bare hands and one-punched him.So it should be enough to suggest that at that time Naruto with 6 path power and Kurama would be moon level.(need to be about 3.5 times stronger than base).