Tolkien Tier High 1-A+ and 0 Proposal

[Lordhesperus]

While Tolkien's faith influenced his writing, the tier justification stands on its own based on the source material's explicit descriptions.

high 1-A+ placement for the Ainur is also well-supported by their described abilities and relationship to sub-creation, while still maintaining a clear qualitative difference from Eru's tier 0 status.

 

[Tyranno223]

While Tolkien's faith influenced his writing, the tier justification stands on its own based on the source material's explicit descriptions.

high 1-A+ placement for the Ainur is also well-supported by their described abilities and relationship to sub-creation, while still maintaining a clear qualitative difference from Eru's tier 0 status.

Edit: Misread this. Yeah, this is pretty on point.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Based Tolkien writing peak fiction as per usual. Completely agree with this

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Agree with everything.

 

[Hsharpe]

I wholeheartedly agree with all of this.

 

[Antvasima]

What Ultima has accepted here seems fine to apply.

 

[Tyranno223]

What Ultima has accepted here seems fine to apply.

Thank you very much!

I suppose 48 hour grace has started so I need to hurry with my drafts.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Thank you very much!

I suppose 48 hour grace has started so I need to hurry with my blogs.

WHOOT. Congrats Tyranno.

 

[Hsharpe]

LESGOOOOOOOO IT'S HAPPENING

LET'S F@&KING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lordhesperus]

Edit: Misread this. Yeah, this is pretty on point.

I had a whole lot of free time to express my understanding of your blog post regarding the proposal for Tolkien High 1-A+ and 0.

I also find your argument about the Ainur’s role as sub-creators to be an essential aspect of understanding their position within Tolkien's mythos.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Thank you very much!

I suppose 48 hour grace has started so I need to hurry with my drafts.

Should we wait for Pein to express whatever their concerns with High 1-A+ Ainur were?

 

[Tyranno223]

Should we wait for Pein to express whatever their concerns with High 1-A+ Ainur were?

Wouldn't they have 48 hours to express their concerns if grace is considered to have started?

They did originally say they would make their statement later yesterday and it has been over a day since they said they would comment. They didnt respond either when I made a note that anything from the Silmarillion past the Valaquenta is a different key so I am currently of the opinion it was likely related to that. There isn't really anywhere else for feats let alone anti-feats afterall.

On a personal note, their activities in relation to this thread have proven rather frustrating as well.

That being said, if you think delaying for a bit is best, I'm not that strongly opposed.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, I think it's best to wait for a bit. If they remain in silence after a day or two, we can go ahead.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yeah, I think it's best to wait for a bit. If they remain in silence after a day or two, we can go ahead.

Sure, no worries. Just to clarify, is this a delay on grace or application? As in 1 or 2 days and then grace starts or just a general wait?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Sure, no worries. Just to clarify, is this a delay on grace or application? As in 2 days and then grace starts or just a general wait?

The latter. Grace's still ticking on as normally.

 

[Tyranno223]

The latter. Grace's still ticking on as normally.

Oh, then that's definitely fine. I've been waiting for them regardless.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we wait for Pein to express whatever their concerns with High 1-A+ Ainur were?

@PrinceofPein

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will make my post in the next 12 to 16 hours.
Just had to catch up on some stuffs, sorry for the delay.

 

[Tyranno223]

I will make my post in the next 12 to 16 hours.
Just had to catch up on some stuffs, sorry for the delay.

I'll make a note that grace will pass in less than two hours, but the thread should stay open for a while since the page drafts still need editing and the cosmology blog to be pieced together, so you should be fine as long as it's a legitimate concern.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I'll make a note that grace will pass in less than two hours, but the thread should stay open for a while since the page drafts still need editing and the cosmology blog to be pieced together, so you should be fine as long as it's a legitimate concern.

grace already passed. it's based on the date the thread was created and not when it was accepted. but ya since pein is planning to comment ig better to wait.

 

[Tyranno223]

grace already passed. it's based on the date the thread was created and not when it was accepted. but ya since pein is planning to comment ig better to wait.

Oh really? Jeez, I've been here so long and I didn't know that.

But yeah, like I said, as long as it's a legitimate concern I'm happy to wait. If it's not, I'm ripping them a new one.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Oh really? Jeez, I've been here so long and I didn't know that.

But yeah, like I said, as long as it's a legitimate concern I'm happy to wait. If it's not, I'm ripping them a new one.

I mean shouldn't it be fine to edit Eru's profile at least, since Pein is just going to be discussing the Ainur ?

 

[Tyranno223]

I mean shouldn't it be fine to edit Eru's profile at least, since Pein is just going to be discussing the Ainur ?

Should be, but I'm still editing drafts and waiting on Ultima's response to some stuff.

We recently went over and resolved a potential anti-feat for the Ainur funnily enough. Only found that one due to my ass ability to word tier 1 and 0 profiles.

Also, the cosmology blog needs to be pieced together from the proposal draft and the new stuff that came up in the thread itself.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Here it goes
First Argument

To return to an earlier extract from Letter 153, we have the following description of the capacities of Sub-creators in terms of their creative abilities.

"Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds, but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is required – Letter 153"

The OP claims this is referring to the sub-creators within his stories but this is untrue and Tolkien actually referring to himself and how he can write what he wants in his stories in a reply to Petwr Hasting.
Here is the full quote to which the context is him saying he may write things as he wish cause it is his story.

Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job'
except those imposed by his own finiteness?
No bounds,but the laws of contradiction, I
should think. But, of course, humility and an
awareness of peril isrequired. A writer may
be basically 'benevolent' according to his lig-
hts (as I hope I am) and yet not be 'benef-
icent' owing to error and stupidity. I would
claim, if I did not think it presumptuous in
one so ill-instructed, to have as one object
the elucidation of truth, and the encour-
agement of good morals in this real world,
by the ancient device of exemplifying them
in unfamiliar embodiments, that may tend
to 'bring them home'. But, of course, I may
be in error (at some or all points): my truths
may not be true, or they may be distorted :
and the mirror I have made may be dim
and cracked. But I should need to be fully
convinced that anything I have 'feigned' is
actually harmful, per se and not merely bec-
ause misunderstood, before I should recant or
rewrite anything.

This is a summary of Peter Hastings questions on whether he had overstepped the boundaries of theological speculations by his writing.

Peter Hastings, expressing enthusiasm for The Lord of the Rings, but asked if Tolkien had not 'over- stepped the mark in metaphysical matters'. He gave several examples: first, 'Treebeard's statement that the Dark Lord created the Trolls and the Orcs'. Hastings suggested that evil was incapable of creating anything, and argued that even if it could create, its creatures 'could not have a tendency to good, even a very small one'; whereas, he argued, one of the Trolls in The Hobbit, William, does have a feeling of pity for Bilbo. He also cited the description of Bombadil by Gold- berry: 'He is.' Hastings said that this seemed to imply that Bombadil was God. Hastings was most of all concerned with the reincarnation of the Elves, which Tolkien had mentioned to him in a conversation. He wrote of this: 'God has not used that device in any of the creations of which we have knowledge, and it seems to me to be stepping beyond the posi- tion of a sub-creator to produce it as an actual working thing, because a sub-creator, when dealing with the relations bet- ween creator and created, should use those channels which he knows the creator to have used already..... "The Ring" is so good that it is a pity to deprive it of its reality by over-stepping the bounds of a writer's job.' He also asked if the reincarnation of the Elves did not produce practical problems: What happens to the descendants of a human and an elf who marry?' And, on another matter, he asked how Sauron, given his extreme evil, could 'keep the co-operation of the elves' until the time when the Rings of Power were forged.]

To which Tolkien tried his best to resolve his misunderstanding of his work in his letter (153) and said in conclusion; he as a writer is not limited by anything he wish to happen except by his own imagination and he needs to be convinced that what he has written is harmful before he can recant or rewrite anything. I.e. hasting needs to convince him why his writing is harmful especially since it is a fictional work and should be looked at as such and not as a religious/theology book
The immediate continuation of his reply said this;

Great harm can be done, of course, by this potent mode of 'myth' especially will-fully. The right to 'freedom' of the sub- creator is no guarantee among fallen men that it will not be used as wickedly as is Free Will. I am comforted by the fact that some, more pious and learned than I, have found nothing harmful in this Tale or its fei- gnings as a 'myth'.

He accepted that great harm can be done cause this kind of work is opened to allegory, but regardless him granting the sub-creators their own rights (creating of orcs, men and elves marrying e.t.c.) is exactly like free will.

Tldr: The quote where the quote of writers been able to create any world of their chosen is by no means referring to Sub-creators but rather Tolkien himself and even arguments could have been made for it been Eru, as everything in the book is his design but certainly no arguments can be made for reason why the OP said this was referring to sub-creators. And even no where is it referred to as all possible space can be created e.t.c.


My second argument as to why Sub-creators being High 1-A+ is wrong is cause;

Sub-creators is used to refer to all things with free-will within the creation of Eru.

Still on what he said in letter 153

To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides: sub-creators. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences.

This is further buttressed in many works, as sub-creation is simply free-will to do that which you want within the created world of God and due to that there are infinite possibilities as to which way things can go but regardless of all these, everything will end up in God's final design that he has already made

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thou- ghts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.'

- Ainulindale

There might be other 'makings' all the same which were more like puppets filled (only at a distance) with their maker's mind and will, or ant-like operating under direction of a queen centre.

- Letter to Hastings.

I will not treat your dusty path and flat,
denoting this and that by this and that,
your world immutable wherein no part
the little maker has with maker's art.
I bow not yet before the Iron Crown,
nor cast my own small golden sceptre down.

- Mythopoeia

Practically, sub-creators are simply things with Free-will within the creation of Eru, but regardless everything the sub-creators do are still by the design and originates from God himself, much like how Tolkien views our Real world.

My third argument is the Secret Flame:
The Ainur have no power to actually create anything, as in the world of Tolkien that can only be done with the aid of the secret flame and also Tolkien himself said it explicitly that they have no power of creation.
This he said in his letter to Milton explaining what is the Silmarillion is

The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not cre- ation, making or re-making).

Due to the fact that they have no power to create things of their own, Melkor was seeking out the secret flame so he can create beings and things of his own design.

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Impe- rishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar.

After the music of the Ainur, what was used to bring to life the things sung by them was the secret flame i.e. the song was more like a drawing or painting without life and was brought to reality by the secret flame, hence they may sing according to Eru's design but they by no means have any power to actually create these things as only Eru wields the secret flame.

Then there was unrest among the Ainur; but Il úvatar called to them, and said: 'I know the des- ire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it.' And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.

Essentially, the music was something in their thoughts as our Ea will be after Eru showed it to them and then he brought it to life with the flame.

Also I do not want to say things about when they were inside Ea but Aule needed the secret flame also to give life to the dwarfs after he created them, to which Eru had to intervene to give them life.

I think with this, I have proven that there is no such thing as sub-creators creating all possible space or worlds. As everything with free-will is a sub-creator.
I will like to note that point 1 is the major argument as it is what disproves the entire tiering claim. The quote was referring to Tolkien himself and not sub-creators.

 

[Tyranno223]

I am pleasantly pleased this is a genuine rebutall. I feared the worst after the initial posts, I apologise for judging too quickly. I'll have my response in a bit.

I'll note there's already some stuff thay has been discussed in previous threads and disputed however.

Edit: Annoyingly some of the stuff you discuss was specifically noted and disputed in the blog. My pleased state is decreasing.

 

[Tyranno223]

Edit 2: This post was far too heated. I have apologised to Pein privately, but yeah, I'm not going to lie, this was bad on my part. I still maintain my problems, and I still have genuine issues, but the language here is far too insulting and condescending. While I stand by parts of this rebuttal, I point people to my post below about Sub-creators as a whole. This was bad on the personal front.

This is better than feared and worse than hoped in terms of a rebuttle. I am consistently getting annoyed by your poor reading comprehension Pein. Consider my upvote rescinded (for how little that matters).

Here it goes
First Argument

The OP claims this is referring to the sub-creators within his stories but this is untrue and Tolkien actually referring to himself and how he can write what he wants in his stories in a reply to Petwr Hasting.
Here is the full quote to which the context is him saying he may write things as he wish cause it is his story.

This is a summary of Peter Hastings questions on whether he had overstepped the boundaries of theological speculations by his writing.

To which Tolkien tried his best to resolve his misunderstanding of his work in his letter (153) and said in conclusion; he as a writer is not limited by anything he wish to happen except by his own imagination and he needs to be convinced that what he has written is harmful before he can recant or rewrite anything. I.e. hasting needs to convince him why his writing is harmful especially since it is a fictional work and should be looked at as such and not as a religious/theology book
The immediate continuation of his reply said this;

He accepted that great harm can be done cause this kind of work is opened to allegory, but regardless him granting the sub-creators their own rights (creating of orcs, men and elves marrying e.t.c.) is exactly like free will.

Tldr: The quote where the quote of writers been able to create any world of their chosen is by no means referring to Sub-creators but rather Tolkien himself and even arguments could have been made for it been Eru, as everything in the book is his design but certainly no arguments can be made for reason why the OP said this was referring to sub-creators. And even no where is it referred to as all possible space can be created e.t.c.

Pein, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the blog. To quote from the blog

---

"While Tolkien is a real person and not a character in the Legendarium, not even as a self-insert (outside of perhaps the notion he is rediscovering an ancient mythological past), his view of Creation and Sub-creation has created a cosmology where his and the position of all other writers are tributary to God.

To return to the extract from Letter 153, all writers create as per the “channels” provided by God, they can only operate as per what the Creator has already used, but within this framework they are utterly unbound except for the laws of contradiction. They cannot perform contradictory actions (as a form of logical omnipotence on a lower scale)

Are there any 'bounds to a writer's job' except those imposed by his own finiteness? No bounds,

but the laws of contradiction, I should think. But, of course, humility and an awareness of peril is

required – Letter 153


To repeat myself, Tolkien is not a true character in the Legendarium, only the position of Sub-creators is relevant to the cosmology of Tolkien. We will return to this when we address the tiering."

---

Did you read this part? Tolkien is indeed considered a Sub-creator. What he is not is a character in so much as it matters to the Legendarium. The position of Sub-creators, aka the writers and creators of myths in the Primary Reality, is what matters. This is not a cosmology matter (they're seperate from that anyway) but a metaphysics matter. In fact, majority of page 2 of this thread discussed the applicability of Tolkien's metaphysics to the verse.

My second argument as to why Sub-creators being High 1-A+ is wrong is cause;

Sub-creators is used to refer to all things with free-will within the creation of Eru.

Still on what he said in letter 153

This is further buttressed in many works, as sub-creation is simply free-will to do that which you want within the created world of God and due to that there are infinite possibilities as to which way things can go but regardless of all these, everything will end up in God's final design that he has already made


- Ainulindale

- Letter to Hastings.

- Mythopoeia

Practically, sub-creators are simply things with Free-will within the creation of Eru, but regardless everything the sub-creators do are still by the design and originates from God himself, much like how Tolkien views our Real world.

... Yes. Read the BLOG

---

If you have followed the discussions in Lord of the Rings threads, you might have encountered the term “Sub-creator” or “Sub-creation” a few times. To put it in a basic definition, any created being that undergoes the process of creative works is both a Sub-creator and a being performing Sub-creation. This can be any created entity, even those within Eä.

By the making of gems the sub-creative function of the Elves is chiefly symbolized, but the Silmarilli were more than just beautiful things as such – Letter 131

However, this term is used by Tolkien in a more specific way as well, in reference to those who create fictional worlds, aka writers. This includes Tolkien himself, as any Sub-creator who creates a Sub-creative work, a fictional work, has necessarily made a world that is under God’s will as a tribute to God’s infinite creative potential.

---

We are referring specifically to the Sub-creators of the Primary Reality. Not sub-creators in general. I am using it as a term to refer to the specific instance that is relevant. This has been stated in the blog.

This isn't even a point, this is a linguistics quibble.

My third argument is the Secret Flame:
The Ainur have no power to actually create anything, as in the world of Tolkien that can only be done with the aid of the secret flame and also Tolkien himself said it explicitly that they have no power of creation.
This he said in his letter to Milton explaining what is the Silmarillion is

Due to the fact that they have no power to create things of their own, Melkor was seeking out the secret flame so he can create beings and things of his own design.

After the music of the Ainur, what was used to bring to life the things sung by them was the secret flame i.e. the song was more like a drawing or painting without life and was brought to reality by the secret flame, hence they may sing according to Eru's design but they by no means have any power to actually create these things as only Eru wields the secret flame.

Essentially, the music was something in their thoughts as our Ea will be after Eru showed it to them and then he brought it to life with the flame.

Also I do not want to say things about when they were inside Ea but Aule needed the secret flame also to give life to the dwarfs after he created them, to which Eru had to intervene to give them life.

... This is known and was discussed in an earlier revision. It is in fact already accepted. This one I won't fault you for admittedly.

The Ainur cannot create anything, this is true, but they have the ability to sub-create using the chanells of the Creator. Eru is the only thing that can give life, yes, but they created the frameworks. The Music of the Ainur is a genuine power.

• The Silmarilion blatantly calls it Fate.
  • "Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. " - Chapter 1: OF THE BEGINNING OF DAYS
• The Ainulindalë is described as having real power over creation. As experiment stated, The Nature of Middle-Earth notes that the Music has real power, with Eru having to be specified as being unbound by it. This power is
  • "But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: The Primal Impulse
• Text A of Tolkien's thoughts on the matter of "primal impulse" describes the Ainulindalë as fate, with the Music's themes being the events that will carry out within reality, aka the created universe
  • "For it is clear in such lore as we have received from the Valar that they set in motion the unfolding of different living patterns at many different points in the Ainulindalë, and therefore this was repeated in Eä. Within Eä we have then not one single Ermenië or Great Pattern, but a number of early or Major Patterns (Arkantiër)." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: The Primal Impulse

I think with this, I have proven that there is no such thing as sub-creators creating all possible space or worlds. As everything with free-will is a sub-creator.
I will like to note that point 1 is the major argument as it is what disproves the entire tiering claim. The quote was referring to Tolkien himself and not sub-creators.

Irrelevant whether or not the term point regardless, it was a term I was using to refer to specific sub-creators, not all anyway.

And as noted in point 1, Tolkien and his position is being considered even if he is not being "used" as a character.

Edit: From the OP as well

"From the Creator comes forth Sub-creators. At the basest form, anything can be a sub-creator, for the act of sub-creation is simply the act of creation through the channels provided by God. However, the title of Sub-creator is given by Tolkien in reference to those who create stories. For example, Tolkien himself is a Sub-creator and subordinate to God. This does not mean that Tolkien is a true character within the Legendarium in a way that matters, but what this revision does consider is that the position of Sub-creators is very real within the Legendarium."

Note, the specific wording here is a bit off (Legendarium not so much as Tolkien's metaphysics). It's not really a title he used per say, but one I am using as quick hand, but point stands.

 

[Robo432343]

there is more proof pein didn't even read the blog properly then proof the counter arguments from them are legit

 

[Tyranno223]

there is more proof pein didn't even read the blog properly then proof the counter arguments from them are legit

Uh, sorry, bit confused. Are you saying there are more legitimate counter arguments that Pein could have used?

 

[Robo432343]

Uh, sorry, bit confused. Are you saying there are more legitimate counter arguments that Pein could have used?

oh, no

does this have enough staff votes to be applied?

 

[Tyranno223]

oh, no

does this have enough staff votes to be applied?

Well grace passed a while back. I'm just finishing up page drafts really and later combining the proposal blog + new discussed info into a cosmology page.

Waiting on Ultima to get back to me on one thing about the pages.

 

[Hsharpe]

Bravo Tyranno. You have cooked again.

 

[Antvasima]

Waiting on Ultima to get back to me on one thing about the pages.

@Ultima_Reality

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will reply later, but the thing here is that I did read the blog, if I state something contrary to it, it means I did not agree with what was written in the blog or rather your explanation of a text, as your opinions on this matter is not the law. Hence, I will give my own opinion too, this is also very condescending, it is like me replying to you and saying for every point you raised against my argument, it is because you never read the arguments.

 

[Tyranno223]

@Ultima_Reality

Oh, we're discussing it in the Conversations section. Just waiting for a response there, no need to worry.

Thanks either way Ant!

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Tyranno223]

I will reply later, but the thing here is that I did read the blog, if I state something contrary to it, it means I did not agree with what was written in the blog or rather your explanation of a text, as your opinions on this matter is not the law. Hence, I will give my own opinion too, this is also very condescending, it is like me replying to you and saying for every point you raised against my argument, it is because you never read the arguments.

Pein, I am being condescending (and I am admittedly being harsh, so I apologise about that) because you are stating things that are laid out in the blog. If the rebuttle focused on disputing what is laid out, I would be fine and even pleased as you saw.

But you are not. You are making statements about things I have already discussed! How can I not be annoyed? To put it plainly, you are missing the points I made in pre-emptive defense and going straight to the things I have already made statements against.

 

[Tyranno223]

For example:

---

"Sub-creators is used to refer to all things with free-will within the creation of Eru.

Still on what he said in letter 153

This is further buttressed in many works, as sub-creation is simply free-will to do that which you want within the created world of God and due to that there are infinite possibilities as to which way things can go but regardless of all these, everything will end up in God's final design that he has already made"

Is a fine point in isolation. But in my blog I have already prepared a point regarding this.

---

"If you have followed the discussions in Lord of the Rings threads, you might have encountered the term “Sub-creator” or “Sub-creation” a few times. To put it in a basic definition, any created being that undergoes the process of creative works is both a Sub-creator and a being performing Sub-creation. This can be any created entity, even those within Eä.

By the making of gems the sub-creative function of the Elves is chiefly symbolized, but the Silmarilli were more than just beautiful things as such – Letter 131

However, this term is used by Tolkien in a more specific way as well, in reference to those who create fictional worlds, aka writers. This includes Tolkien himself, as any Sub-creator who creates a Sub-creative work, a fictional work, has necessarily made a world that is under God’s will as a tribute to God’s infinite creative potential."

or

"From the Creator comes forth Sub-creators. At the basest form, anything can be a sub-creator, for the act of sub-creation is simply the act of creation through the channels provided by God. However, the title of Sub-creator is given by Tolkien in reference to those who create stories. For example, Tolkien himself is a Sub-creator and subordinate to God. This does not mean that Tolkien is a true character within the Legendarium in a way that matters, but what this revision does consider is that the position of Sub-creators is very real within the Legendarium."

---

Pein, what I mean about "reading comprehension" is that you are not reading the points I have already made! Might I also justify my annoyance with the fact this is the third time in this thread alone?

 

[Tyranno223]

I suppose I might as well cover as much ground as I can recall to avoid repetition.

What can be a sub-creator?​

Sub-creators as a term can refer to any created being who performs sub-creative actions. This can be of varying range and scaling, including the artistic creations of Elves such as say gems or jewels.

"The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. That is: they have a devoted love of the physical world, and a desire to observe and understand it for its own sake and as 'other' – sc. as a reality derived from God in the same degree as themselves – not as a material for use or as a power-platform. They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of great excellence" - Letter 181.

What do WE mean by sub-creator?​

However, this is not what we refer to when we use the term "sub-creator". When we refer to sub-creator, we specifically refer to the authors and writers of the Primary Reality, something which Tolkien (unintentionally or not) has made a exceedingly higher thing than any other sub-creator. Essentially, we refer to the real world and its creators of myths and fictions. This is what we refer to when we speak of those who can realise "any possible world"... something that was made exceedingly clear if you were keeping up with the actual thread folks.

We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation 'from the channels the creator is known to have used already' is the fundamental function of 'sub-creation', a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety, one of the ways in which indeed it is exhibited, as indeed I said in the Essay. I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysic – there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones –that declared the channels known (in such a finite comer as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him! - Letter 153

• Note, I am not denying that Tolkien is making a theological defense, this is indeed acknowledged in page 2 of this thread in fact, but the point is that his metaphysical position has resulted in this kind of... result.

Mythopoeia​

As noted in the extract posted in page 2, Tolkien created this poem as a rebuttal "To one who said that myths were lies and therefore worthless, even though 'breathed through silver'." Aka to C.S Lewis. However, through this, we are given much detail again on the position of "writers" within the perspective of Tolkien's metaphysics. Specifically, storytellers, or "sub-creators" as Tolkien likes to call this specific form of subcreation, are those who "reflect" a "splintered fragment of the true light" of God. Aka, they are those who tell a portion of God's light in their role as filtered and refracted fragments of it.

"...myths are “lies and therefore worthless, even though breathed through silver.” No, said Tolkien. They are not lies... Tolkien continued, not merely the abstract thoughts of man but also his imaginative inventions must originate with God, and must in consequence reflect something of eternal truth. In making a myth, in practising 'mythopoeia' and peopling the world with elves and dragons and goblins, a storyteller, or 'sub-creator' as Tolkien liked to call such a person, is actually fulfilling God's purpose, and reflecting a splintered fragment of the true light."

This specific instance of sub-creators certainly refers to the former the one mentioned in Letter 153 at least.

Do also recall that High 1-A+ is the realisation of all "possible" worlds. Eru makes it so the selection of "possible" worlds is limited by His únati. Aka, his impossibilities. Eru has made it so many things in the Legendarium, and therefore Tolkien's metaphysics, is impossible. For instance, the creation of life without Eru/God's interventions. That's not even a concern as a result.

• Limits upon sub creators such as the "únat, a thing impossible to be or to be done" that are "...a perpetual reminder of the existence of Eru and His invincibility" and hence not a significant mark against them - Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX
  • Commands are literal and we have examples - "axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state" - Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX

Can the Ainur create?​

No one but God/Eru can create anything, this is a null-point. However, subcreatively speaking, they can realise many things through the channels of God's infinity.

For instance, The Nature of Middle-Earth notes that even in the heavily reduced state they were within Eä, they were capable of designing things with corporeal life, even as they could not make corporeal life that has "independent minds or spirits".

• "The Valar had power to endue things that they designed with corporeal life; but they could not make things with independent minds or spirits: sc. they could not make things of equal order, but only ones of lower order. In ultimate truth they did not in fact “make” even corporeal life, which proceeded from Eru. But they had assisted in the general design of Eä, and severally, in different degrees and modes, in the production from the erma (or prime substance) of things of many kinds." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Three: The World, its Lands, and its Inhabitants, III Powers of the Valar

Certainly an irrelevant point overall, but a handy example to their ability to subcreatively act.

Now, for a relevant point, did the Music have a real effect? This is something I painstakingly looked over before getting it accepted, but yes.

• "But to the Atani I will give a new gift.’ Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else..." - The Silmarillion, Chapter 1: OF THE BEGINNING OF DAYS
  • The Music of the Ainur is as fate, not the Flame Imperishable. The Music has a real effect.
• "The Valar reportno such [?intrusive] things in the Music other than the coming of the Children. But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur)" - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Three: The World, its Lands, and its Inhabitants, II The Primal Impulse
  • While Eru gave life to the Drama formed from the Music, it is the Music itself that binds the inhabitants and it is the Ainur who are acknowledged by Tolkien as its creators and those who cause the binding.
• "Nienna, sister of the Fëanturi; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
  • The common example of Ainur creating concepts is Melkor's discord, but we do have a description of Nienna being the one to weave "the sound of mourning" into the World before it had even begun.
• "Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Ilúvatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
  • Making the Void "not void" is pretty explicitly a real effect.

Etc, there's plenty of real effects and given credit to the Ainur for the actual creation of the Music and its effects even as Eru was the one to give life to Eä. As previously agreed, it is therefore likely that Eru made Eä whereas the Music of the Ainur became something akin to the "framework", with the history, concepts, material, etc of Eä defined by the Ainur.

---

For the record, everything prior has already been covered in the blog, the thread itself, or previously accepted threads (and are on profile).

Sub-creator power levels?​

This is the result of a relatively new discussion I had with Ultima, the matter of whether Ainur contradict the tier of High 1-A+ in terms of "are they all as powerful as each other" in a "punchy punchy" way. Of course, while 1-A characters (which Ainur would be even if High 1-A+ was rejected post-grace by a foundd issue) can be stronger than others in their tier, High 1-A+ can only "differ" in strength between the two types of beings in the tier.

To post a shortened version of my post in that convo.

Morgoth is the most powerful among the Ainur, even in their origin. This is a clear issue.

• "To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

So why was this not a crippling issue? It has to do with what we mean by "might" for the Ainur in their origin (not once in Eä. DO NOT use that for pre-Eä).

So let us look at Melkor's description. The knowledge part is just that, knowledge. The share in "all the gifts" is again, seemingly just that, knowledge (my intelligence revision noting that the Ainur were all given a certain amount of knowledge, that is the gift).

• "The Valar were themselves “on trial” – an aspect of the mystery of “free will” in created intelligences. They had a sufficient knowledge of the will of Eru and his “design” to undertake the responsibility of guiding its development by means of the great prowess given to them and according to their own reason and intelligence." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Two: Body, Mind and Spirit, XII The Knowledge of the Valar
  • The "gift" seems to refer to their provided knowledge of Eru's design. It is this which allows them to guide the development of Eä upon entry into it according to their own ideas and will.
• "Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
  • Again, it is by an understanding of their part and the intent behind it that they would comprehend each other and thus the whole of the Music in the creating of it.
• "Nienna, sister of the Fëanturi; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
  • To reuse this example, Nienna was acquinted with the concept of grief, and it was her knowledge of it that let her weave it into the World before it had even begun. Knowledge seems to be the rub.
• "In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken." - Letter 212
  • The more common example

Power is a stickling point, but it wasn't something that distinguished Melkor in capacity per say. Tolkien notes

• "...Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA"

and

• "In the cosmogonic myth Manwë is said to be 'brother' of Melkor, that is they were coëval and equipotent in the mind of the Creator." - Letter 211

So clearly, "mightiest" doesn't necessarily refer to sheer strength if any of the Valar could accomplish what he did and the "weaker" sibling was coeval and equipotent to the "mightier".


So what does Tolkien mean by "mightiest" or "mightier" is these contexts? Knowledge appears to be the definer of power in the Ainur, at least prior to their descent and restriction by Eru. For example

• "Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds)." - Letter 200. - emphasis on fairly, Manwë comes as close as possible, no more than that.
  • The lesser spirits being lesser in part as they were interested in subsidiary matters and would therefore possess less knowledge. Manwë's relative complete knowledge seems to have been part of the reason why he was, second to Melkor, "mightier" than other Ainur.
• "I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices" - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
  • A rather explicit example. The "power" of the Ainur is kindled from their thoughts and "devices". It is their mind which defined whether they were more "powerful" or not.
• "God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama... The Knowledge of the Creation Drama was incomplete: incomplete in each individual 'god', and incomplete if all the knowledge of the pantheon were pooled." - Letter 131
  • Another explicit example. The power of the Ainur derived from their knowledge. Indeed, this seems to have had some effect as to the varying levels of power among the Ainur following their descent when they became more "defined".

Of course, this lack of knowledge isn't restricting beyond say their creativity, they can go beyond their given roles due to their free-wills afterall. Therefore, there isn't a restriction on their ability to influence/create all possible words (having the capacity even if not the knowledge seems acceptable judging by profiles like The Star-Maker).

• "...Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwë was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Two, IX ÓSANWE-KENTA
• "In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken." - Letter 212

Moreover, there isn't a true "power" difference in the "punch harder" way. For example, even at point-blank (relatively speaking on such a higher scale), none of the "lesser" Ainur were harmed by Melkor.

• "But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery..." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
  • Btw, if the post-descent "power levels" were accurate to pre-descent, they would have been obliterated by Melkor considering none of them were noted as Valar.

Therefore, while an anti-feat can be argued here, it isn't one that cannot be explained away. In fact, it seems to have been resolved by what we know from the Legendarium alone.

Highest created beings?​

"To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way... to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences. So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'subcreative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions." - Letter 153

• Feigned as Tolkien doesn't know literal angels from which to guarantee whether Angels/Ainur would possess these abilities or traits. Heck, Tolkien notes everything about his writing is "feigned" since it's not literal reality, or at least not known as literal reality with certainty.
  • "But, of course, I may be in error (at some or all points): my truths may not be true, or they may be distorted : and the mirror I have made may be dim and cracked. But I should need to be fully convinced that anything I have 'feigned' is actually harmful, per se and not merely because misunderstood, before I should recant or rewrite anything."- Letter 153

So the Ainur are the "highest created beings". Does this make them stronger than sub-creators? Is that not contradictory? No, although I don't doubt Tolkien believed literal angels to be stronger than himself, for the context of his writings, no.

Let us do a brief (and it will be brief) breakdown of words (limitless extensions flashback).

• "Highest created beings" makes logical sense as they are Eru's first creation and Eru's "closest" in that they receive direct gifts of knowledge and such from Eru (alongside more of a direct connection in terms of relative communication).
• The "special" subcreative power could also refer to this knowledge too (in the sense of knowledge of what to create). Afterall, knowledge relates to the capacity of a sub-creator to realise any possible world, even if they hold the actual power to do so already (star-maker much?).

And, most importantly, there isn't exactly a mention of "power" in the sense of might in regards to the "highest" or "special 'subcretive' powers" per say. What is mentioned is "certainty". The Ainur receive a special boon to their "powers" in that they are given certainty in their creation of possible things unlike say, "the writers". This is a byproduct of the writers... well literally being people rather than the closest finite things to God.

Now, I'm done with this post, refer to page 2 with stuff like this or this if you have issues with the Metaphysics. They have (also) been discussed already in fair detail.

Edit: While the language here is still condescending, I believe this is the rebuttal I am more proud of.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

No offense, but most of Pein's contentions so far have already been quite elegantly rebutted against in the actual blog (which is again the only thing bolded in the OP), and even further in this thread. Is the delay for Pein's response still in effect? Personally, I do not see this going anywhere it has not already gone.