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Lord of the Rings general revision thread (continued)

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Hellbeast said:
Whuite Wizard is Gandalf at this time, I'd also argue the Amped Witch King could give Saruman trouble
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Amped Witch-King is heavily implied to be Gandalf the White tier.

Hellbeast said:
This applies to Tuor as well right
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Maybe? I forget if he fought a troll or not. He does kill Maeglin though, who was comparable to the Noldor of Gondolin.

On an aside, Hurin kills dozens of troll-guads, but he upscales from Elendil and Turin as the strongest human.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Amped Witch-King is heavily implied to be Gandalf the White tier.
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I know, I do suggest that being why the Witch King gets a key just outright scaling to the higher stuff rather then an 'AT MOST"
Tyranno223 said:
Maybe? I forget if he fought a troll or not. He does kill Maeglin though, who was comparable to the Noldor of Gondolin.

On an aside, Hurin kills dozens of troll-guads, but he upscales from Elendil and Turin as the strongest human.
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LMAO so it's pocket change for scaling
 
Tyranno223 said:
I'm still very much against it. Bambu hasn't commented in a while since my last rebuttal, and Armor and my disagreement's do seem to be gradually narrowing down to a few points.

Dinamic, another knowledgeable member, seems to also support my position as well. NaturalDestroyer too (although they haven't put themselves down in the list yet)
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Okay. Noted. Thank you for your summary. 🙏
 
Also, do not scream at Tyranno223, Armorchompy. He has been rational and polite here.

Would it be reasonable to use "At least... , likely..." compromise tiering for Aragorn, given how inconsistently Tolkien seems to have handled him in terms of raw power?
 
I admittedly might come back to the topic in the future (I didn't have the time to keep up the argument and it might be better to present it in a more organised way rather than as part of the wider scaling), but yeah it's been resolved for now.

Although I would still like to maintain his scaling in terms of speed. I'd also put him at an "at least" compared to the other characters he scales to, as he is very much above them all to the point he is never harmed.
 
To add to the troll stuff, Pippins Westernesse blade (Númenórean) one shotted an Olog-Hai, so Blades from Númenor and Elven swords can at least cut thru stone.

Glamdring shattered the Balrogs sword when Gandalf parried it in the books as well, another feat for Elven swords.
 
TheMerchant66 said:
To add to the troll stuff, Pippins Westernesse blade (Númenórean) one shotted an Olog-Hai, so Blades from Númenor and Elven swords can at least cut thru stone.
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They're actually blades from Cardolan, so it's more of an Arnor/Mid-Gondor feat.

That being said, yeah, I agree, although I am wondering if this is more of a issue with troll skin being weaker to pierce and blunt.

Boromir's slash failed to harm a troll when Thorin, who should not be incomparable to Gloin and thus Gimli (who is below Boromir in strength), could knock the teeth from a troll with a tree branch.

TheMerchant66 said:
Glamdring shattered the Balrogs sword when Gandalf parried it in the books as well, another feat for Elven swords.
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100% agree there. High Noldorin Lords also have regular feats of fighting Balrogs, albeit often at a disadvantage.
 
– Immunity To Fate Manipulation, Transduality Type 2, Causality Manipulation Described in The Nature Of Middle Earth Eru is not at all bound by Themes, or by Ainulindale (as Ainur made it out) he is beyond fundamental things, and has absolutely no destiny. Suddenly in The Nature Of Middle Earth, Eru continued, and stopped history, and it was caused by Eru [1]. Explanation for Transduality Type 2. First we will explain Ainulindalè, it is all the concepts that are present, from metaphysics, to physical concepts. It has also been explained there that Eru is not bound by Ainulindalè and Tema, and Eru is also immune to what arises from these two concepts, as well as Eru is described with two conditions of duality at once and not both, it is clear that Eru has a qualitative advantage [2 ].
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com
– Life Creation, Fate Manipulation, and Emphatic Manipulation In the discussion of Eä when the Valar or Ainur are talking with Ìluvatar, in his statement, Life and Growth originate from Ìluvatar who created them [1]. At the time of Sauron's downfall, it was explained that it was Fate that had been ordained by Iluvatar (part of Eru plan) [2]. Every Mind and Spirit originates from Eru[3].
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com
[1]
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com
[2]
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com
[3]

@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Tyranno223 @TheMerchant66 @Hellbeast
How about this.
 
Experiment12 said:
– Immunity To Fate Manipulation, Transduality Type 2, Causality Manipulation Described in The Nature Of Middle Earth Eru is not at all bound by Themes, or by Ainulindale (as Ainur made it out) he is beyond fundamental things, and has absolutely no destiny. Suddenly in The Nature Of Middle Earth, Eru continued, and stopped history, and it was caused by Eru [1]. Explanation for Transduality Type 2. First we will explain Ainulindalè, it is all the concepts that are present, from metaphysics, to physical concepts. It has also been explained there that Eru is not bound by Ainulindalè and Tema, and Eru is also immune to what arises from these two concepts, as well as Eru is described with two conditions of duality at once and not both, it is clear that Eru has a qualitative advantage [2 ].
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com
– Life Creation, Fate Manipulation, and Emphatic Manipulation In the discussion of Eä when the Valar or Ainur are talking with Ìluvatar, in his statement, Life and Growth originate from Ìluvatar who created them [1]. At the time of Sauron's downfall, it was explained that it was Fate that had been ordained by Iluvatar (part of Eru plan) [2]. Every Mind and Spirit originates from Eru[3].
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com
[1]
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com
[2]
gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com gyazo.com
[3]

@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Tyranno223 @TheMerchant66 @Hellbeast
How about this.
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@Tyranno223 @TheMerchant66 @DarkDragonMedeus
 
The Music of the Ainur is an instance of Fate and Concept Manipulation, I can say that much.

Life creation is a given.

I would expand more, but I am quite busy these days. I'll get back to this when I have time.
 
You misunderstood, Eru is a type 2 state of being Transduality, and I don't understand what you're saying, which one are you referring to?

Now Eru's situation is in Duality and Non-Duality, then Qualitative Superior, as I explained abov
Gasper said:
Transduality type 2 isn't an ability, it's a state of being. So no to that one.
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Experiment12 said:
You misunderstood, Eru is a type 2 state of being Transduality, and I don't understand what you're saying, which one are you referring to?

Now Eru's situation is in Duality and Non-Duality, then Qualitative Superior, as I explained abov
Click to expand...
I didn't misunderstood anything. I just don't think Eru qualities for transduality type 2.
 
Experiment12 said:
Immunity To Fate Manipulation, Transduality Type 2, Causality Manipulation Described in The Nature Of Middle Earth Eru is not at all bound by Themes, or by Ainulindale (as Ainur made it out) he is beyond fundamental things, and has absolutely no destiny. Suddenly in The Nature Of Middle Earth, Eru continued, and stopped history, and it was caused by Eru [1]. Explanation for Transduality Type 2. First we will explain Ainulindalè, it is all the concepts that are present, from metaphysics, to physical concepts. It has also been explained there that Eru is not bound by Ainulindalè and Tema, and Eru is also immune to what arises from these two concepts, as well as Eru is described with two conditions of duality at once and not both, it is clear that Eru has a qualitative advantage [2 ].
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My first issue is the word "Immunity." It is prone to NLF, but otherwise not being effected by Fate or Causality Manipulation is called Acausality. Type 4 at least but unsure about type 5. Also, Transduality is a state of being, not a hax. It's more so an ability to effect characters with Transduality. But what is the exact wording is the part I question.
Experiment12 said:
– Life Creation, Fate Manipulation, and Emphatic Manipulation In the discussion of Eä when the Valar or Ainur are talking with Ìluvatar, in his statement, Life and Growth originate from Ìluvatar who created them [1]. At the time of Sauron's downfall, it was explained that it was Fate that had been ordained by Iluvatar (part of Eru plan) [2]. Every Mind and Spirit originates from Eru[3].
Click to expand...
These look fine though.
 
To begin with, I'd like to point out that the universal abilities for the Ainur (and subsequently Eru) will be combined in a verse page (courtesy of Dinamic8000). Right now it's just stuff from the pages, and those need to be reviewed and referenced. Stuff will be added and removed as well.

Regarding Experiment on Eru
  • In regards to the proposed resistances, he is fundamentally Acausal. He predates time, space, concepts, etc. He also remains outside of these things upon their inception. This is Type 5 I believe and covers the suggested resistances. It would also cover the last key of the Ainur and the theoretical ones that remain outside of creation
  • Fate Manipulation: Well, he already has Plot Manipulation and is described as the "Author". He'll have this regardless once the Ainur ability revisions happen, but sure.
  • Life Creation. It's repeated A LOT that Eru is the only one who can make sentient and free life. Plus he gave life to the Ainur
    • "Then Ilúvatar said to them: ‘Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
    • "And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: ‘Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.’ Then Aulë cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Ilúvatar, saying: ‘May Eru bless my work and amend it!" - The Silmarillion: Chapter 2 - OF AULË AND YAVANNA
  • Transduality: Sure he has qualitative superiority, hence 5-D, but I don't think that's enough. I don't know enough here.
Regarding Fate Manipulation, I might as well post this since this is already relatively compiled and relevant

The Music of the Ainur/The Ainulindalë: Fate Manipulation
  • The Silmarilion blatantly calls it Fate.
    • "Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. " - Chapter 1: OF THE BEGINNING OF DAYS
  • The Ainulindalë is described as having real power over creation. As experiment stated, The Nature of Middle-Earth notes that the Music has real power, with Eru having to be specified as being unbound by it. This power is
    • "But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: The Primal Impulse
  • Text A of Tolkien's thoughts on the matter of "primal impulse" describes the Ainulindalë as fate, with the Music's themes being the events that will carry out within reality, aka the created universe
    • "For it is clear in such lore as we have received from the Valar that they set in motion the unfolding of different living patterns at many different points in the Ainulindalë, and therefore this was repeated in Eä. Within Eä we have then not one single Ermenië or Great Pattern, but a number of early or Major Patterns (Arkantiër)." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: The Primal Impulse
Is the Music genuine?
  • Here lies the rub, the Ainur expended a genuinely large amount of power in their discourse over the Music, to the point that the entirety of the Timeless Halls were shaken
    • "In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased." - The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë
  • However, the issue is that the Music was not "real" until Eru gave it life. It is repeatedly stated that the Music was mere drama or thought until Eru gave it life. Yet the rub remains that the Ainur did genuinely expend significant power in the wake of their Music. So to what extent did they genuinely do something? - Below details the relevant parts of Letter 212
    • "They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an 'historical vision'. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'."
    • "At this stage it had still only a validity, to which the validity of a 'story' among ourselves may be compared: it 'exists' in the mind of the teller, and derivatively in the minds of hearers, but not on the same plane as teller or hearers. When the One (the Teller) said Let it Be, * then the Tale became History, on the same plane as the hearers; and these could, if they desired, enter into it." - Worth noting is that Tolkien does not write in a literal sense here. The story analogy is an analogy - "it had still only a validity, to which the validity of a 'story' among ourselves may be compared"
  • Proposal, I believe that Tolkien's notes make it clear that, while the Ainur did not make the living world, they did make the "layout". Their design is a genuine instance of Fate Manipulation (and anything else relevant) as Tolkien emphasises that the Ainur were the ones to design what will occur. In essence, they performed Fate Manipulation, but this could only come into play once Eru made the universe.
    • "But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: The Primal Impulse - The emphasis is on Eru not being bound by a creation of the Ainur, not a creation of Himself
    • "Elves and Men were called the 'children of God', because they were, so to speak, a private addition to the Design, by the Creator, and one in which the Valar had no part. (Their 'themes' were introduced into the Music by the One, when the discords of Melkor arose.) The Valar knew that they would appear, and the great ones knew when and how (though not precisely), but they knew little of their nature, and their foresight, derived from their pre-knowledge of the Design, was imperfect or failed in the matter of the deeds of the Children." - an example of what I'm proposing. Themes are genuinely fated to occur, with Morgoth's being one example
    • "In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken." - Letter 212 - Again, the universe's creation is separated from the Music's details. Eru made the universe, but Morgoth's theme introduced evil to be fated to occur (and conceptually exist)

Fate Manipulation: Other
  • Tolkien writes that Morgoth cursed Hurin and his descendants to be fated with ill-fortune.
    • "Therefore Húrin was brought before Morgoth, for Morgoth knew that he had the friendship of the King of Gondolin; but Húrin defied him, and mocked him. Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow; and taking Húrin from prison he set him in a chair of stone upon a high place of Thangorodrim. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth, and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again; and he said: ‘Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda."
  • His son, Christopher, expands on his father's thoughts within the introduction to the "Children of Hurin". As the curator and successor of J.R.R Tolkien, as well as a constant consultant to him since childhood (regarding the fantasy universe) he is a very knowledgeable source
    • "The curse of such a being, who can claim that 'the shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda [the Earth], and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will', is unlike the curses or imprecations of beings of far less power. Morgoth is not 'invoking' evil or calamity on Húrin and his children, he is not 'calling on' a higher power to be the agent: for he, 'Master of the fates of Arda' as he named himself to Húrin, intends to bring about the ruin of his enemy by the force of his own gigantic will. Thus he 'designs' the future of those whom he hates, and so he says to Húrin: 'Upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair." - THE CHILDREN OF HÚRIN: Introduction
    • For further emphasis, he is outright just explaining/paraphrasing his father's thoughts "My father gave a definition of what this meant: if one were forced to look into Morgoth's eye he would..."
  • It can surmised that Morgoth is capable of Fate Manipulation. Moreover, as this was achieved by mere force of will, and not a unique ability, this should be possible for comparable characters. This includes the Valar, and possibly the top tier Greater Maiar (for it is unknown if Arien outright scales above Morgoth or not prior to this event)
  • For the record, this is long after the Ainur have descended into reality. Many millennia

Concept Manipulation:
  • The Ainur, with the Valar being the most obvious examples, are described as having great power over their "material"
    • "The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material. Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations. Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found; for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: Power of the Valar
  • This ability is inherent, and expressed in a manner akin to breathing
    • "The Eldar believed that “spirits”, and the more so as they had greater inherent native powers, could “emit” their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily and most easily upon other spirits, or upon the fëar of Incarnates; but also in the case of the greater Máyar (of whom the Valar were the chief) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of corporeal instruments. [fn2] [6] This direct action upon things was held to be quite different from direct calling of attention from other spirits... The words used to describe this action or emission of “power” were derived (apparently) by analogy from emission of breath, and such physical phenomena as breathing upon frost (which melts). In addition Manwë, who was held to be Lord of Air and Winds, was the most powerful of the Valar in this respect, and the most powerful spirit in Arda."
  • They are also able to exert their influence on things that are not directly under their purview
    • "The latter was a natural operation within one mode of being, it being of the nature of spirits to be aware of one another. The former was an exhalation of dominance of one mode over another; and according to the Eldar all exertions of dominance make demands upon those who exert the power – something of their “spirit” is expelled, and transferred to the thing in a lower mode. Hence all tyrants slowly consume themselves, or transfer their power to things, and can only control it so long as they can [?possess or control the thing with its?] but power is dissipated. So Morgoth had become in fact less powerful than the other Valar, and much of his native power had passed into things [?? diminished?] Hence his malice could live on after his extrusion."
  • Now, naturally all this does not necessitate Concept Manipulation, but it is useful groundwork. All the Ainur have their spheres of influence, and all of them have their specialties.
  • The Nature of Middle-Earth and Letters emphasises the role of the Ainur in creating/designing the framework of creation. All things that make up creation (minus specific Eru designs) are made by the Ainur
    • "The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material. Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: Power of the Valar - erma ‘prime substance’, aka the primal substance
    • Prior to their Music, no concepts existed. Time, space, etc, all had their origins in the Music of the Ainur. There isn't really a single quote for this, but Eä, the universe, was made by the Eru giving "life" to the Music. All within Eä was designed by the Music, which would include time and space. We have multiple references in our pages which emphasise that the Ainur were not in time and space in their origin, only descending into it post its creation
    • Much as Fate is created by the Ainur, before the universe is given life by Eru, so too did they create the base concepts of the universe. The most explicit example is Morgoth, who is repeatedly said to have made evil and discord
      • "In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'." - Letter 212
      • "Elves and Men were called the 'children of God', because they were, so to speak, a private addition to the Design, by the Creator, and one in which the Valar had no part. (Their 'themes' were introduced into the Music by the One, when the discords of Melkor arose.)" - Letter 212
      • "In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. " - Letter 212
      • "Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Ilúvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
      • "The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern" - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË - The final theme, were discourse is integrated into creation properly
      • "“Openness” is the natural or simple state (indo) of a mind that is not otherwise engaged. [fn2] In “Arda Unmarred” (that is, in ideal conditions free from evil) [6] openness would be the normal state." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: ÓSANWE-KENTA - conceptually speaking, evil did not exist within the original planned design
 
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Okay, first I will discuss why Eru will get Transduality Type 2 benefits. First, he goes beyond and there was a situation with Eä. Let's discuss Eä first, it belongs to Duality, because it includes Space and Time, and Eru himself is also the opposite of this. And Eru is a "Source of all things" which can also be included in Non-Dualiy because all sources of any such fundamental things come from Eru and Flame Imperishable. Now proceed to the next stage, which is where we have to surpass the two above, and Eru has surpassed these two, as I explained above.
How? @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Tyranno223 @Hellbeast @Mr._Bambu
 
Experiment12 said:
Okay, first I will discuss why Eru will get Transduality Type 2 benefits. First, he goes beyond and there was a situation with Eä. Let's discuss Eä first, it belongs to Duality, because it includes Space and Time, and Eru himself is also the opposite of this. And Eru is a "Source of all things" which can also be included in Non-Dualiy because all sources of any such fundamental things come from Eru and Flame Imperishable. Now proceed to the next stage, which is where we have to surpass the two above, and Eru has surpassed these two, as I explained above.
How? @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Tyranno223 @Hellbeast @Mr._Bambu
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predating concepts dosen't make you non-dual.
 
Experiment12 said:
So you deviate from the text, what I said "Source of all things" shows Non-Duality.
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Source of all things isn't non dualism at all. There are thousands of characters in fiction that are stated to be "the Source of everything" but they don't get transduality type 2 just based on that. You need an explicit statement about superiority from duality.
 
Gasper said:
Source of all things isn't non dualism at all. There are thousands of characters in fiction that are stated to be "the Source of everything" but they don't get transduality type 2 just based on that. You need an explicit statement about superiority from duality.
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Hufft, let me explain why "source of all things" can be considered as Non-Duality, primarily, it must refer to the idea that there is one universal source or reality that is the basis for something that exists. We can take from "Flame Imperishable" he created all the basic things, like concepts, etc. Secondly, Non-Duality is often also associated with consciousness or universal awareness that pervades something, and because of that, everything is considered to come from one inseparable source, we take from Eä, when music is created with a tune in Eru's mind, and represents it to Ainur.
 
Tyranno223 said:
To begin with, I'd like to point out that the universal abilities for the Ainur (and subsequently Eru) will be combined in a verse page (courtesy of Dinamic8000). Right now it's just stuff from the pages, and those need to be reviewed and referenced. Stuff will be added and removed as well.

Regarding Experiment on Eru
  • In regards to the proposed resistances, he is fundamentally Acausal. He predates time, space, concepts, etc. He also remains outside of these things upon their inception. This is Type 5 I believe and covers the suggested resistances. It would also cover the last key of the Ainur and the theoretical ones that remain outside of creation
  • Fate Manipulation: Well, he already has Plot Manipulation and is described as the "Author". He'll have this regardless once the Ainur ability revisions happen, but sure.
  • Life Creation. It's repeated A LOT that Eru is the only one who can make sentient and free life. Plus he gave life to the Ainur
    • "Then Ilúvatar said to them: ‘Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
    • "And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: ‘Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.’ Then Aulë cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Ilúvatar, saying: ‘May Eru bless my work and amend it!" - The Silmarillion: Chapter 2 - OF AULË AND YAVANNA
  • Transduality: Sure he has qualitative superiority, hence 5-D, but I don't think that's enough. I don't know enough here.
Regarding Fate Manipulation, I might as well post this since this is already relatively compiled and relevant

The Music of the Ainur/The Ainulindalë: Fate Manipulation
  • The Silmarilion blatantly calls it Fate.
    • "Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. " - Chapter 1: OF THE BEGINNING OF DAYS
  • The Ainulindalë is described as having real power over creation. As experiment stated, The Nature of Middle-Earth notes that the Music has real power, with Eru having to be specified as being unbound by it. This power is
    • "But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: The Primal Impulse
  • Text A of Tolkien's thoughts on the matter of "primal impulse" describes the Ainulindalë as fate, with the Music's themes being the events that will carry out within reality, aka the created universe
    • "For it is clear in such lore as we have received from the Valar that they set in motion the unfolding of different living patterns at many different points in the Ainulindalë, and therefore this was repeated in Eä. Within Eä we have then not one single Ermenië or Great Pattern, but a number of early or Major Patterns (Arkantiër)." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: The Primal Impulse
Is the Music genuine?
  • Here lies the rub, the Ainur expended a genuinely large amount of power in their discourse over the Music, to the point that the entirety of the Timeless Halls were shaken
    • "In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased." - The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë
  • However, the issue is that the Music was not "real" until Eru gave it life. It is repeatedly stated that the Music was mere drama or thought until Eru gave it life. Yet the rub remains that the Ainur did genuinely expend significant power in the wake of their Music. So to what extent did they genuinely do something? - Below details the relevant parts of Letter 212
    • "They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an 'historical vision'. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'."
    • "At this stage it had still only a validity, to which the validity of a 'story' among ourselves may be compared: it 'exists' in the mind of the teller, and derivatively in the minds of hearers, but not on the same plane as teller or hearers. When the One (the Teller) said Let it Be, * then the Tale became History, on the same plane as the hearers; and these could, if they desired, enter into it." - Worth noting is that Tolkien does not write in a literal sense here. The story analogy is an analogy - "it had still only a validity, to which the validity of a 'story' among ourselves may be compared"
  • Proposal, I believe that Tolkien's notes make it clear that, while the Ainur did not make the living world, they did make the "layout". Their design is a genuine instance of Fate Manipulation (and anything else relevant) as Tolkien emphasises that the Ainur were the ones to design what will occur. In essence, they performed Fate Manipulation, but this could only come into play once Eru made the universe.
    • "But since Eru was not bound by the Theme, nor by the Ainulindalë (as made by the Ainur), it would be rash to assert that He is or will be bound by Eä realized; since He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: The Primal Impulse - The emphasis is on Eru not being bound by a creation of the Ainur, not a creation of Himself
    • "Elves and Men were called the 'children of God', because they were, so to speak, a private addition to the Design, by the Creator, and one in which the Valar had no part. (Their 'themes' were introduced into the Music by the One, when the discords of Melkor arose.) The Valar knew that they would appear, and the great ones knew when and how (though not precisely), but they knew little of their nature, and their foresight, derived from their pre-knowledge of the Design, was imperfect or failed in the matter of the deeds of the Children." - an example of what I'm proposing. Themes are genuinely fated to occur, with Morgoth's being one example
    • "In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken." - Letter 212 - Again, the universe's creation is separated from the Music's details. Eru made the universe, but Morgoth's theme introduced evil to be fated to occur (and conceptually exist)

Fate Manipulation: Other
  • Tolkien writes that Morgoth cursed Hurin and his descendants to be fated with ill-fortune.
    • "Therefore Húrin was brought before Morgoth, for Morgoth knew that he had the friendship of the King of Gondolin; but Húrin defied him, and mocked him. Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow; and taking Húrin from prison he set him in a chair of stone upon a high place of Thangorodrim. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth, and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again; and he said: ‘Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda."
  • His son, Christopher, expands on his father's thoughts within the introduction to the "Children of Hurin". As the curator and successor of J.R.R Tolkien, as well as a constant consultant to him since childhood (regarding the fantasy universe) he is a very knowledgeable source
    • "The curse of such a being, who can claim that 'the shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda [the Earth], and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will', is unlike the curses or imprecations of beings of far less power. Morgoth is not 'invoking' evil or calamity on Húrin and his children, he is not 'calling on' a higher power to be the agent: for he, 'Master of the fates of Arda' as he named himself to Húrin, intends to bring about the ruin of his enemy by the force of his own gigantic will. Thus he 'designs' the future of those whom he hates, and so he says to Húrin: 'Upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair." - THE CHILDREN OF HÚRIN: Introduction
    • For further emphasis, he is outright just explaining/paraphrasing his father's thoughts "My father gave a definition of what this meant: if one were forced to look into Morgoth's eye he would..."
  • It can surmised that Morgoth is capable of Fate Manipulation. Moreover, as this was achieved by mere force of will, and not a unique ability, this should be possible for comparable characters. This includes the Valar, and possibly the top tier Greater Maiar (for it is unknown if Arien outright scales above Morgoth or not prior to this event)
  • For the record, this is long after the Ainur have descended into reality. Many millennia

Concept Manipulation:
  • The Ainur, with the Valar being the most obvious examples, are described as having great power over their "material"
    • "The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material. Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations. Or rather, among them all such knowledge was to be found; for individually they had possessed from their own creation, and had shown in their assistance in the designing of Eä, different talents, and each of them possessed some skill or knowledge of his or her own." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: Power of the Valar
  • This ability is inherent, and expressed in a manner akin to breathing
    • "The Eldar believed that “spirits”, and the more so as they had greater inherent native powers, could “emit” their influence to make contact with or act upon things exterior to themselves: primarily and most easily upon other spirits, or upon the fëar of Incarnates; but also in the case of the greater Máyar (of whom the Valar were the chief) directly upon physical things without the mediacy of corporeal instruments. [fn2] [6] This direct action upon things was held to be quite different from direct calling of attention from other spirits... The words used to describe this action or emission of “power” were derived (apparently) by analogy from emission of breath, and such physical phenomena as breathing upon frost (which melts). In addition Manwë, who was held to be Lord of Air and Winds, was the most powerful of the Valar in this respect, and the most powerful spirit in Arda."
  • They are also able to exert their influence on things that are not directly under their purview
    • "The latter was a natural operation within one mode of being, it being of the nature of spirits to be aware of one another. The former was an exhalation of dominance of one mode over another; and according to the Eldar all exertions of dominance make demands upon those who exert the power – something of their “spirit” is expelled, and transferred to the thing in a lower mode. Hence all tyrants slowly consume themselves, or transfer their power to things, and can only control it so long as they can [?possess or control the thing with its?] but power is dissipated. So Morgoth had become in fact less powerful than the other Valar, and much of his native power had passed into things [?? diminished?] Hence his malice could live on after his extrusion."
  • Now, naturally all this does not necessitate Concept Manipulation, but it is useful groundwork. All the Ainur have their spheres of influence, and all of them have their specialties.
  • The Nature of Middle-Earth and Letters emphasises the role of the Ainur in creating/designing the framework of creation. All things that make up creation (minus specific Eru designs) are made by the Ainur
    • "The Valar, however, had of course far greater power over their material. Not only had they enormously greater force of will, scope of mind, and subtlety of skill, but they had complete understanding of the erma and of the structure of its variations, since they had themselves (under Eru) designed and brought about these variations, and their combinations." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: Power of the Valar - erma ‘prime substance’, aka the primal substance
    • Prior to their Music, no concepts existed. Time, space, etc, all had their origins in the Music of the Ainur. There isn't really a single quote for this, but Eä, the universe, was made by the Eru giving "life" to the Music. All within Eä was designed by the Music, which would include time and space. We have multiple references in our pages which emphasise that the Ainur were not in time and space in their origin, only descending into it post its creation
    • Much as Fate is created by the Ainur, before the universe is given life by Eru, so too did they create the base concepts of the universe. The most explicit example is Morgoth, who is repeatedly said to have made evil and discord
      • "In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One then presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'." - Letter 212
      • "Elves and Men were called the 'children of God', because they were, so to speak, a private addition to the Design, by the Creator, and one in which the Valar had no part. (Their 'themes' were introduced into the Music by the One, when the discords of Melkor arose.)" - Letter 212
      • "In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. " - Letter 212
      • "Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Ilúvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË
      • "The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern" - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË - The final theme, were discourse is integrated into creation properly
      • "“Openness” is the natural or simple state (indo) of a mind that is not otherwise engaged. [fn2] In “Arda Unmarred” (that is, in ideal conditions free from evil) [6] openness would be the normal state." - The Nature of Middle-Earth - Part Three: ÓSANWE-KENTA - conceptually speaking, evil did not exist within the original planned design
Click to expand...
@DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about this? It seems to make sense to me.
 
Thank you. For the record, powers and abilities won't be applied directly but to the draft of the universal power page.

Eru specific powers being the exception.

I believe Experiment12 is still arguing for transduality, but I have no stake there.
 
Tyranno223 said:
For the record, powers and abilities won't be applied directly but to the draft of the universal power page.
Click to expand...
What does the universal powers page refer to? Can somebody link to it please?
 
Okay. That seems good to me. Thank you for the replies. 🙏
 
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