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TOKYO REVENGERS DISCUSSION THREAD: TOKYO MANJI GANG 卍

It's before he attacked Sanzu and got the Dark Impulses as it's shown before that (he was around 6 then) , and it's also after Grandpa Sano adopted Emma (which was when Mikey was like 4 iirc) so I'd say between 4-6 years old?
Wait, Mikey's mom death and Mikey defeating those 3 goons don't happen close to each other.

When Mikey was against the goons, the goons asked him if he was Mikey from class 7, and after Mikey kicked Sameyama (the first time Mikey met Draken) Mikey said he was Mikey from class 7, so that was a 12-13 year old Mikey. That version of Mikey should scale to 1mj.
 
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His 8-9 year old self should also be wall level, since he could knockout shinichiro with a single kick.
Mikey died at 2003 and shinichiro travelled back 4 years ago to save him, and right after he travelled back, Mikey KO'd him, so he's like 8-9
 
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When Mikey was against the goons, the goons asked him if he was Mikey from class 7, and after Mikey kicked Sameyama (the first time Mikey met Draken) Mikey said he was Mikey from class 7, so that was a 12-13 year old Mikey. That version of Mikey should scale to 1mj.
Nope. Mikey was at 5th grade of Elemantary when he met Draken, which would make him 10-11 years old, while Japanese kids start elemantary school at 6 years of age. Class 7 is just his classroom's name, not his grade.

Also, the reason he beat those 3 dudes to near death was heavily implied to be his mother's passing, so yeah it is probably right after his mother passed away.
His 8-9 year old self should also be wall level, since he can knockout shinichiro with a single kick.
Mikey died at 2003 and shinichiro travelled back 4 years ago to save him, and right after he travelled back, Mikey KO'd him, so he's like 8-9
I looked at the scans and it was 1997 July when he kicked Shinichiro. Mikey's birthday August 1990 so he is 6, close to turning 7, and he kicked Shinichiro after his mother passed away, confirming that he was around 4-7 years of age when he beat those dudes.

In addition, we also see him no diffing 3 highschool delinquents (who should all upscale from no name Toman members due to being older) in seconds when he was 10-11.
 
Nope. Mikey was at 5th grade of Elemantary when he met Draken, which would make him 10-11 years old, while Japanese kids start elemantary school at 6 years of age. Class 7 is just his classroom's name, not his grade.

Also, the reason he beat those 3 dudes to near death was heavily implied to be his mother's passing, so yeah it is probably right after his mother passed away.
I know that class 7 is his just class name, I automatically thought they were 12-13 when they just met, my bad.

The chapter briefly showed Mikey's backstory, they don't have necessarily have to be close to each other, but yeah it seems you're correct, I just rechecked the chapter and there's also a page when he was 5th grader and he seemed older, and he mentioned that he's 3rd grader so, he's 8-9.

It looks that he's doesn't change his class group at all, and that got me confused
 
Nope. Mikey was at 5th grade of Elemantary when he met Draken, which would make him 10-11 years old, while Japanese kids start elemantary school at 6 years of age. Class 7 is just his classroom's name, not his grade.

Also, the reason he beat those 3 dudes to near death was heavily implied to be his mother's passing, so yeah it is probably right after his mother passed away.

I looked at the scans and it was 1997 July when he kicked Shinichiro. Mikey's birthday August 1990 so he is 6, close to turning 7, and he kicked Shinichiro after his mother passed away, confirming that he was around 4-7 years of age when he beat those dudes.

In addition, we also see him no diffing 3 highschool delinquents (who should all upscale from no name Toman members due to being older) in seconds when he was 10-11.
I think that was an error, it says 1997, but if you look at the calender, you'd see 999 with the number 1 seemed to be blocked by something.

Also Mikey died at July 30, and when shin tried to commit suicide by jumping down to water, he said he travelled back 4 years, after all the events that happened he went back to the future and then died, and that was 2003.

So 1997 is probably an error
 
The chapter briefly showed Mikey's backstory, they don't have necessarily have to be close to each other, but yeah it seems you're correct, I just rechecked the chapter and there's also a page when he was 5th grader and he seemed older, and he mentioned that he's 3rd grader so, he's 8-9.
Nah he didn't say he was a 3rd grader, he just said that he beat a 3rd grader.

All we know is that it happened between Emma's adoption (which was when Mikey was like 4 iirc) as she was there when Mikey's mom passed away and the time he got Dark Impulses for the first time (which was when he was 8-9 I guess). So 4-9 years old Mikey scales to 21 KJ at least.
I think that was an error, it says 1997, but if you look at the calender, you'd see 999 with the number 1 seemed to be blocked by something.

Also Mikey died at July 30, and when shin tried to commit suicide by jumping down to water, he said he travelled back 4 years, after all the events that happened he went back to the future and then died, and that was 2003.

So 1997 is probably an error
Yep, you seem to be right.
9-10 year old Mikey is gonna scale to 1mj then hahahhahaha
I mean, that'd be kind of an overstatement. Baji was 13 years old when he met Chifuyu, and he fought Kiyomaro a few months after, who should be comparable to Soichiro. a 12-13 year old Mikey should be massively superior to 13 year old Baji, so;

4-11 year old Mikey upscales from 21 KJ
11-14 year old Mikey upscales from 1 MJ

Just to add, Kazutora stated how he brought Chonbo and Chome to fight Mikey as they were the strongest guys in his Juvie, which includes Kensho, who could no diff Soichiro and Ayumu at the same time. 15 year old Mikey could fight Chonbo and Chome at the same time in an unbalanced place where he couldn't ultilize his kicks properly, and Chome and Chonbo still needed Kazutora to hit him with a metal pipe to beat him, till he lost his marbles and oneshotted them all. And that's not even including his Dark Impulse, which made him go from getting his attacks tanked by Hanma, to one shotting him.

So yeah, 15 year old Mikey is on a whole another level compared to Kensho, so he should honestly get a "far higher" from Soichiro's feat. I'm already remaking his profile with references and missing abilities.
 
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Nah he didn't say he was a 3rd grader, he just said that he beat a 3rd grader.

All we know is that it happened between Emma's adoption (which was when Mikey was like 4 iirc) as she was there when Mikey's mom passed away and the time he got Dark Impulses for the first time (which was when he was 8-9 I guess). So 4-9 years old Mikey scales to 21 KJ at least.
Fair enough.
I mean, that'd be kind of an overstatement. Baji was 13 years old when he met Chifuyu, and he fought Kiyomaro a few months after, who should be comparable to Soichiro. a 12-13 year old Mikey should be massively superior to 13 year old Baji, so;

4-11 year old Mikey upscales from 21 KJ
11-14 year old Mikey upscales from 1 MJ
I've already said this, I'll say it again, my reasoning is that Sameyama's gang is stated to control the neighborhood of Shibuya, so these guys are stronger than your average randoms, Mikey's kick to Sameyama dealt more damage than Baji's punch to random goon that cracked a wall.
And people can't complain about durability being inconsistent here since Sameyama isn't a random and that the scene is meant to portray how strong Mikey's kick is, since they mentioned about Mikey caving his face with a kick.
So 5th grader Mikey, 10-11 year old, (not 9-10, that was an error) should scale above Baji when he just met chifuyu, atleast AP wise
 
Just to add, Kazutora stated how he brought Chonbo and Chome to fight Mikey as they were the strongest guys in his Juvie, which includes Kensho, who could no diff Soichiro and Ayumu at the same time. 15 year old Mikey could fight Chonbo and Chome at the same time in an unbalanced place where he couldn't ultilize his kicks properly, and Chome and Chonbo still needed Kazutora to hit him with a metal pipe to beat him, till he lost his marbles and oneshotted them all. And that's not even including his Dark Impulse, which made him go from getting his attacks tanked by Hanma, to one shotting him.
I'm not sure about this, it'll be better if the spin-off is completed to conclude things. And Di Mikey is another thing.
So yeah, 15 year old Mikey is on a whole another level compared to Kensho, so he should honestly get a "far higher" from Soichiro's feat. I'm already remaking his profile with references and missing abilities.
Nice
 
I've already said this, I'll say it again, my reasoning is that Sameyama's gang is stated to control the neighborhood of Shibuya, so these guys are stronger than your average randoms, Mikey's kick to Sameyama dealt more damage than Baji's punch to random goon that cracked a wall.
And people can't complain about durability being inconsistent here since Sameyama isn't a random and that the scene is meant to portray how strong Mikey's kick is, since they mentioned about Mikey caving his face with a kick.
So 5th grader Mikey, 10-11 year old, (not 9-10, that was an error) should scale above Baji when he just met chifuyu, atleast AP wise
To be honest, this reasoning looks fine. To add, Sameyama is a freshman highschooler, while the goon Baji punches is very likely a 3rd year middleschooler (or junior high schooler).

In conclusion, 4-9 year old Mikey should upscale from 21 KJ, while 10-14 year old Mikey should upscale from 1 MJ.
I'm not sure about this, it'll be better if the spin-off is completed to conclude things.
Eh, there's really nothing to get concluded imo. We might get more scaling but nothing's gonna change the fact that Chonbo and Chome scales above Yotsuya Kaidan guys.
 
In conclusion, 4-9 year old Mikey should upscale from 21 KJ, while 10-14 year old Mikey should upscale from 1 MJ.
Agree with the latter, for the former, the wiki would require you to take the lowest end possible to scale him.


Eh, there's really nothing to get concluded imo. We might get more scaling but nothing's gonna change the fact that Chonbo and Chome scales above Yotsuya Kaidan guys.
Kensho might have either left the juvie earlier, ran away or die. He seemed like a strong dude and I'm not comfortable scaling him below kazutora outright, but the other guys' placement seems ok.
 
Agree with the latter, for the former, the wiki would require you to take the lowest end possible to scale him.
Yeah, and 21 KJ is the lowest end so...
Kensho might have either left the juvie earlier, ran away or die.
I mean him getting out earlier doesn't really matter as Kazutora didn't specify. He said "strongest in the juvie" which includes Kensho too, taking anything else into account would be an assumption if we don't see anything contradicting it.
He seemed like a strong dude and I'm not comfortable scaling him below kazutora outright, but the other guys' placement seems ok.
Don't really think Kazutora scales above Kensho. You can at best scale him to Baji, and even then Kensho is superior.

If you're talking about Kazutora scaling to Chombo and Chome, he doesn't have any scaling to them.
 
Yeah, and 21 KJ is the lowest end so...
By lowest end I mean, the character's stats will be indexed as low as possible, here we don't know the exact Mikey's age when he destroyed those goons, so we'd have to go by age 8-9 as default.
I mean him getting out earlier doesn't really matter as Kazutora didn't specify. He said "strongest in the juvie" which includes Kensho too, taking anything else into account would be an assumption if we don't see anything contradicting it.
Don't take every word at face value, especially here where the details aren't all out yet, they don't always have to specify everything, a single sentence could entail more than one thing, it is a problem if there's a character who's portrayed as very strong, much above the mid tiers at the time and then suddenly scaling him below gangsters who work under said mid tiers. For this reason I believe it's best to wait to see what'll happen in the spin-off manga.
Don't really think Kazutora scales above Kensho. You can at best scale him to Baji, and even then Kensho is superior.

If you're talking about Kazutora scaling to Chombo and Chome, he doesn't have any scaling to them.
By default you'd have to scale Chome and Chonbo below Kazutora because they work under him.

But since there are actually no feats or statements of them fighting each other or fighting with their equals, you may as well disagree. But I'll leave this up to other supporters.
 
By lowest end I mean, the character's stats will be indexed as low as possible, here we don't know the exact Mikey's age when he destroyed those goons, so we'd have to go by age 8-9 as default.
He destroyed them at ages between 4-9, we don't know the exact age though, so we don't necessarily have to go with the lowest end.

I'll also not gonna be indexing his stats like "At least Wall level at ages 4, At least Wall level at ages 5....", I'll just index it like, "At least Wall level at ages 4-9 (Much superior to no name delinquents at this age), higher at ages 10-14 (scales much higher than Soichiro)".
Don't take every word at face value, especially here where the details aren't all out yet, they don't always have to specify everything, a single sentence could entail more than one thing,
There's nothing suggesting the opposite though? There's no detail that will change the fact that Chonbo and Chome being stated as the strongest dudes Kazutora met in Juvie, except for a scene of Yotsuya dudes beating them.
much above the mid tiers at the time and then suddenly scaling him below gangsters who work under said mid tiers. For this reason I believe it's best to wait to see what'll happen in the spin-off manga.
By default you'd have to scale Chome and Chonbo below Kazutora because they work under him.
Working under someone doesn't = to being below them in terms of fighting prowess. Examples of this would be Shinichiro leading 1st gen Black Dragons even though he's stated to be a bad fighter and Kisaki leading Moebius (Osanai being a really good example of how muscles ≠ leadership in TR) and Valhalla even though he's comparable to Base Takemichi.

Shinichiro had the charisma and Kisaki had the intelligence. You can tell how Kazutora has charisma as well as he was able to influence Yotsuya Kaidan members to work for him and take down Toman. He also has a big reputation through being a founding Toman member and being close with Kensho, who's stated to be known in whole Yotsuya.

There are so many other interperations of him influencing Chonbo and Chome, other than the "He beat them up and got them to work under him" interperation.
 
He destroyed them at ages between 4-9, we don't know the exact age though, so we don't necessarily have to go with the lowest end.

I'll also not gonna be indexing his stats like "At least Wall level at ages 4, At least Wall level at ages 5....", I'll just index it like, "At least Wall level at ages 4-9 (Much superior to no name delinquents at this age), higher at ages 10-14 (scales much higher than Soichiro)".
The thing is that we know he's at least 8-9 year old when he beat up the goons, but we have no idea if he's below that age, it's just a possibility.
There's nothing suggesting the opposite though? There's no detail that will change the fact that Chonbo and Chome being stated as the strongest dudes Kazutora met in Juvie, except for a scene of Yotsuya dudes beating them.
There's nothing that will change that Kazutora said they're the strongest obviously, the problem is what he means, based on just that statment, it could mean more than one thing, it could mean out of the people that remained in the juvie with him, they're the strongest. Let me make a scenario, let's say there's X gang, there are 50 members, some of them died in an accident including the strongest one, and they're left with like 35 members, and after quite some time, someone, let's name him Y, who knew the gang really well took the strongest out of the remaining 35 gang members and introduced him to train in Z facility, the head of Z facility might ask Y who's he is, it's as, if not more plausible that he'd answer the head of Z facility by telling him that he's the strongest X gang member, he may not want to explain every single thing about it.

Kazutora doesn't have to say everything, it's redundant and it has no relevancy to the main story.

Or Kazutora could mean that, Chonbo and Chome are the strongest when they're together and not necessarily individually.

The thing is we don't have enough information to conclude things so it's better to wait for what will happen.

Working under someone doesn't = to being below them in terms of fighting prowess. Examples of this would be Shinichiro leading 1st gen Black Dragons even though he's stated to be a bad fighter and Kisaki leading Moebius (Osanai being a really good example of how muscles ≠ leadership in TR) and Valhalla even though he's comparable to Base Takemichi.

Shinichiro had the charisma and Kisaki had the intelligence. You can tell how Kazutora has charisma as well as he was able to influence Yotsuya Kaidan members to work for him and take down Toman. He also has a big reputation through being a founding Toman member and being close with Kensho, who's stated to be known in whole Yotsuya.

There are so many other interperations of him influencing Chonbo and Chome, other than the "He beat them up and got them to work under him" interperation.
I am well aware of that, but the thing is Kazutora isn't necessarily comparable to the two.

Shinichiro is followed by others way stronger than him because of his personality, he never gives up, that's why he's looked up by everyone.

In Kisaki's case, his plans and methods works, so he's where he is.

Kazutora got neither of the above-mentioned qualities, so by default if someone works under him they'll be weaker than him, just like how things are by default.
 
There's nothing that will change that Kazutora said they're the strongest obviously, the problem is what he means, based on just that statment, it could mean more than one thing, it could mean out of the people that remained in the juvie with him, they're the strongest. Let me make a scenario, let's say there's X gang, there are 50 members, some of them died in an accident including the strongest one, and they're left with like 35 members, and after quite some time, someone, let's name him Y, who knew the gang really well took the strongest out of the remaining 35 gang members and introduced him to train in Z facility, the head of Z facility might ask Y who's he is, it's as, if not more plausible that he'd answer the head of Z facility by telling him that he's the strongest X gang member, he may not want to explain every single thing about it.
It's a really straight forward statement so I don't understand why we have to make up all these assumptions to discard it. "Let's say" or "for example"s are all specific assumptions, while the statement we have is a really on-point one.

Kazutora stated that Chonbo and Chome were the strongest people he met when he was in juvie, which is a time frame that includes Kensho's stay in juvie, which means Chome>Kensho and Chonbo>Kensho.
Kazutora doesn't have to say everything, it's redundant and it has no relevancy to the main story.

Or Kazutora could mean that, Chonbo and Chome are the strongest when they're together and not necessarily individually.

The thing is we don't have enough information to conclude things so it's better to wait for what will happen.
For your assumptions to work he would need to be specific.

That would again be a weird assumption. Kazutora stated that they were both expert fighters, refering to both of them individually.

Chonbo and Chome are likely not gonna be mentioned in the spinoff chapters so I disagree with this and I don't wanna delay the scaling chain CRT I'm planning on making for the spinoff to end as it gets released monthly. A CRT later can be made to change the scaling chain if anything gets contradicted later.
Kazutora got neither of the above-mentioned qualities, so by default if someone works under him they'll be weaker than him, just like how things are by default.
Each Toman founder has crazy reputation in verse by default, due to defeating 9th Generation Black Dragons back then with only 6 members. He's also friends with Kensho, who has influence over an entire city.

Kazutora is also extremely charismatic as he was able to influence Yotsuya Kaidan guys to go after Baji.

I don't see how he'd need to be physically stronger than guys to get them under his control.


I'm not suggesting that Chonbo and Chome can each no diff Kensho or anything as something like that isn't stated. What I'm saying is those dudes both should at least scale to Kensho's stats, as they are stated to be superior to him.
 
It's a really straight forward statement so I don't understand why we have to make up all these assumptions to discard it. "Let's say" or "for example"s are all specific assumptions, while the statement we have is a really on-point one.

Kazutora stated that Chonbo and Chome were the strongest people he met when he was in juvie, which is a time frame that includes Kensho's stay in juvie, which means Chome>Kensho and Chonbo>Kensho.

For your assumptions to work he would need to be specific.

That would again be a weird assumption. Kazutora stated that they were both expert fighters, refering to both of them individually.

Chonbo and Chome are likely not gonna be mentioned in the spinoff chapters so I disagree with this and I don't wanna delay the scaling chain CRT I'm planning on making for the spinoff to end as it gets released monthly. A CRT later can be made to change the scaling chain if anything gets contradicted later.
Kazutora never stated that Chonbo and Chome were the strongest people he met when he was in juvie, he just said "they were the strongest guys in the juvie I went to" in one translation and in the other he said "they were the strongest guys at my reform school". This changes meaning because if he said what you said, it includes every single person he met there when he was in the juvie, but he never mentions such.

I re-read the spin-off chapters, Kiyomaro, Ayumu, Soichiro and Kensho were already out of the juvie.
Kensho was stated to be undefeated, the 3 guys stated that they were the most feared in the juvie and later when they got stomped by Kensho, they told him and Kazutora that both of them are the people they couldn't beat in a while.

This means that Chonbo and Chome either were weaker than them or that they never fought with them to conclude that they're the strongest in the first place, with the former being more likely in my opinion.

If someone was to make a statement or respond to something, it's not likely that they'll include things that are already out of the picture, because it's not very necessary, in this case Kensho and the 3 guys already left the juvie, there's no need to include them.
 
Each Toman founder has crazy reputation in verse by default, due to defeating 9th Generation Black Dragons back then with only 6 members. He's also friends with Kensho, who has influence over an entire city.

Kazutora is also extremely charismatic as he was able to influence Yotsuya Kaidan guys to go after Baji.

I don't see how he'd need to be physically stronger than guys to get them under his control.


I'm not suggesting that Chonbo and Chome can each no diff Kensho or anything as something like that isn't stated. What I'm saying is those dudes both should at least scale to Kensho's stats, as they are stated to be superior to him.
They're not always enough to make someone follow you though, Mikey has crazy reputation, and he still needs to fight to get people on his side.

Kazutora reputation will be based on how strong he is, gang members, especially the stronger ones won't automatically follow you because of it since they also have pride on their strength, and by default you'd have to be stronger than them to get them on your side.
 
Kazutora never stated that Chonbo and Chome were the strongest people he met when he was in juvie, he just said "they were the strongest guys in the juvie I went to" in one translation and in the other he said "they were the strongest guys at my reform school". This changes meaning because if he said what you said, it includes every single person he met there when he was in the juvie, but he never mentions such.
Reform school is a synonym for juvie so it doesn't change anything. He went to one juvie and Yotsuya Kaidan guys, Chome and Chonbo were all there. Chome and Chonbo are the strongest.
I re-read the spin-off chapters, Kiyomaro, Ayumu, Soichiro and Kensho were already out of the juvie.
Kensho was stated to be undefeated, the 3 guys stated that they were the most feared in the juvie and later when they got stomped by Kensho, they told him and Kazutora that both of them are the people they couldn't beat in a while.

This means that Chonbo and Chome either were weaker than them or that they never fought with them to conclude that they're the strongest in the first place, with the former being more likely in my opinion.
They don't have to fight them. Kazutora has eyes. He can observe if one character is superior to other.
If someone was to make a statement or respond to something, it's not likely that they'll include things that are already out of the picture, because it's not very necessary, in this case Kensho and the 3 guys already left the juvie, there's no need to include them.
Well he should specify if he means something else which he doesn't, so we should go with what's stated.
They're not always enough to make someone follow you though, Mikey has crazy reputation, and he still needs to fight to get people on his side.
He mostly doesn't. He only fought Pah, Peh, Kawata Bros and Mucho to get them on his side.

Pah and Peh are idiots so they likely wouldn't understand Mikey's influencing. Kawata Bros were an another gang who also had influence over a part of Tokyo. Mucho was from the "Deadly Generation", who Mikey couldn't even properly influence. Anyone else just joined cuz they were influenced by Mikey. Sure, strength was also a factor, but Kazutora has many factors to influence Chonbo and Chome, not just strength.

Chonbo and Chome aren't idiots, don't have a gang and they weren't from a gang that despises Mikey or something. They have no reason to not get influenced by Kazutora to join him.
 
Reform school is a synonym for juvie so it doesn't change anything. He went to one juvie and Yotsuya Kaidan guys, Chome and Chonbo were all there. Chome and Chonbo are the strongest.

They don't have to fight them. Kazutora has eyes. He can observe if one character is superior to other.

Well he should specify if he means something else which he doesn't, so we should go with what's stated.
I'm not arguing about the synonymity of 'juvie' and 'reform school'; in fact, I do agree with you. You misinterpreted what I said, what I meant is that, Kazutora just said they're the strongest in the juvie, he doesn't say that they're the strongest people he met when he was in the juvie.

The latter (strongest people he met when he was in the juvie) refers to how during his entire time in the juvie, the guys were the strongest people he encountered out of all people.

The former (strongest in the juvie) refers more about what's in the present timeframe.
For example, if the smartest student of some school was to left the school, the smartest student next to him would be the smartest student, and if a random person were to ask a random student who's the smartest student in the said school, his answer would not be the former smartest student but the new one because he's not a part of the school anymore.
Here there's no need for Kazutora to include people if they're not part of what he talks about which is the juvie.
But of course, they can mean the same sometimes, but we don't have any other information on that.

If we go exactly with what Kazutora said, then that means you'll have options to choose since they can mean more than one things, and if you do choose one of them then you're inherently assuming things (since obviously they can mean more than one thing). And if we're talking about what's more probable, his direct statement refers more to what's in the present as I mentioned above.
He mostly doesn't. He only fought Pah, Peh, Kawata Bros and Mucho to get them on his side.

Pah and Peh are idiots so they likely wouldn't understand Mikey's influencing. Kawata Bros were an another gang who also had influence over a part of Tokyo. Mucho was from the "Deadly Generation", who Mikey couldn't even properly influence. Anyone else just joined cuz they were influenced by Mikey. Sure, strength was also a factor, but Kazutora has many factors to influence Chonbo and Chome, not just strength.

Chonbo and Chome aren't idiots, don't have a gang and they weren't from a gang that despises Mikey or something. They have no reason to not get influenced by Kazutora to join him.
By fighting I also mean fighting the leaders of other gangs so the people working under them joins him, this happens with ran, rindou, mochi, shion and Kakucho.

When we get other characters joining Mikey, it's mostly due to Mikey's superiority in terms of strength.

In what way would Kazutora influence them to join him?
 
You misinterpreted what I said, what I meant is that, Kazutora just said they're the strongest in the juvie, he doesn't say that they're the strongest people he met when he was in the juvie.
Basically the same thing.
The former (strongest in the juvie) refers more about what's in the present timeframe.
You would need evidence on that if it did.
For example, if the smartest student of some school was to left the school, the smartest student next to him would be the smartest student, and if a random person were to ask a random student who's the smartest student in the said school, his answer would not be the former smartest student but the new one because he's not a part of the school anymore.
You're constructing your argument on the fact that Kensho is already proven to be stronger than Chonbo and Chome, while that's literally the thing in question here, which is fallacious. This is pretty much saying "Mikey is the strongest character in the series because he's the strongest". You're using your premise to prove your point.
By fighting I also mean fighting the leaders of other gangs so the people working under them joins him, this happens with ran, rindou, mochi, shion and Kakucho.
It's more about the character's preference of recruiting captains. Like how South "negotiates" with people, how Shinichiro influences people, like how Takemichi influences people to get them under their control. It's a case by case basis tbh.
When we get other characters joining Mikey, it's mostly due to Mikey's superiority in terms of strength.
No...
In what way would Kazutora influence them to join him?
He is a charismatic dude with good reputation. He can easily influence people without needing to throw hands.
 
Basically the same thing.
Not really as I explained, the latter is very specific, it shows that they're clearly the strongest, the former statement has a room for different possibilities.
You would need evidence on that if it did.
Things in general actually, if X person no longer is a part of Y group he used to be in and Z person were to rate the Y group members in terms of XYZ, he wouldn't include the X person because he's no longer part of that group.

You're constructing your argument on the fact that Kensho is already proven to be stronger than Chonbo and Chome, while that's literally the thing in question here, which is fallacious. This is pretty much saying "Mikey is the strongest character in the series because he's the strongest". You're using your premise to prove your point.
Not really, the example I gave was directed at this
The former (strongest in the juvie) refers more about what's in the present timeframe.
On how if someone were to rank people of the same group, they won't include the people who are not part of the group anymore.
It's more about the character's preference of recruiting captains. Like how South "negotiates" with people, how Shinichiro influences people, like how Takemichi influences people to get them under their control. It's a case by case basis tbh.

No...

He is a charismatic dude with good reputation. He can easily influence people without needing to throw hands.
Yeah, South had his methods, which is the most basic way to recruit teams, Shinichiro and Takemichi are loved because they never give up.

Kazutora's charisma and reputation would mostly be due to being in the, team that defeated black dragons, not really something similar to others.
 
Not really as I explained, the latter is very specific, it shows that they're clearly the strongest, the former statement has a room for different possibilities.
Not really. If I say "Mike Tyson is the hardest hitting boxer", the first thing that would came to mind wouldn't be "Mike Tyson is the hardest hitting heavyweight boxer", as "the hardest hitting boxer" refers to all time.
Things in general actually, if X person no longer is a part of Y group he used to be in and Z person were to rate the Y group members in terms of XYZ, he wouldn't include the X person because he's no longer part of that group.
Though being in the detention center isn't being a part of a group. Kazutora says "they were the strongest guys in the juvenile center I stayed in", which include both Yotsuya Kaidan guys' stay and Chonbo and Chome's stay, even if they got into juvie later.
On how if someone were to rank people of the same group, they won't include the people who are not part of the group anymore.
It goes to the same thing. You think Kensho is stronger than Chonbo and Chome and make your arguments using your own premise. That's not how you construct arguments.
Kazutora's charisma and reputation would mostly be due to being in the, team that defeated black dragons, not really something similar to others.
It doesn't have to be similar. Ofc his charisma isn't equal to Shinichiro's or Takemichi's. Though he only needs to influence two guys, not entire gangs. Come on now, any Toman captain can do that.

He was also capable of turning Kensho aganist Baji while they were all former friends, without needing to throw hands or something.
 
Not really. If I say "Mike Tyson is the hardest hitting boxer", the first thing that would came to mind wouldn't be "Mike Tyson is the hardest hitting heavyweight boxer", as "the hardest hitting boxer" refers to all time.

Though being in the detention center isn't being a part of a group. Kazutora says "they were the strongest guys in the juvenile center I stayed in", which include both Yotsuya Kaidan guys' stay and Chonbo and Chome's stay, even if they got into juvie later.
Using Mike Tyson is not a good example because it's a timeless, broad and general assessment which is not limited with context unlike the other which is context specific.

A better example would be asking a boxing gym owner who is the strongest boxer in his boxing gym, who do you think he'll answer? The strongest boxer in his gym or a boxer who is not the gym anymore who is stronger than his current strongest boxer? Most likely the former.

Kazutora's statement about Chonbo and Chome being the strongest could be limited to the time after others left the juvie. It depends on when Kazutora made the assessment.

Now that I think about it they're like as equally as probable even though I prefer to go for more conservative and consistent route, but I see your point.
It goes to the same thing. You think Kensho is stronger than Chonbo and Chome and make your arguments using your own premise. That's not how you construct arguments.
I do think Kensho is superior of course, but this in specific isn't about that, it is strictly about what I explicitly wrote.
It doesn't have to be similar. Ofc his charisma isn't equal to Shinichiro's or Takemichi's. Though he only needs to influence two guys, not entire gangs. Come on now, any Toman captain can do that.

He was also capable of turning Kensho aganist Baji while they were all former friends, without needing to throw hands or something.
Fair enough, though how he got Kensho can be attributed how close they were and how closer they become after they went to juvie because they have more things in common and how he spent less time with baji.
 
Also this discussion is boring and repetitive, so I would like to not continue it. There are a lot more interesting things to talk about.
Kazutora's statement about Chonbo and Chome being the strongest could be limited to the time after others left the juvie. It depends on when Kazutora made the assessment.

Now that I think about it they're like as equally as probable even though I prefer to go for more conservative and consistent route, but I see your point.
And about this, I prefer things to be clearer but I'm necessarily opposed to it, so you get my point.
 
Using Mike Tyson is not a good example because it's a timeless, broad and general assessment
Just like Kazutora's statement lol.
A better example would be asking a boxing gym owner who is the strongest boxer in his boxing gym, who do you think he'll answer? The strongest boxer in his gym or a boxer who is not the gym anymore who is stronger than his current strongest boxer? Most likely the former.
I can tell the opposite.
Kazutora's statement about Chonbo and Chome being the strongest could be limited to the time after others left the juvie. It depends on when Kazutora made the assessment.

Now that I think about it they're like as equally as probable even though I prefer to go for more conservative and consistent route, but I see your point.
We always go with the most probable interperation when we're at equal interperation, which would be my interp.
though how he got Kensho can be attributed how close they were and how closer they become after they went to juvie because they have more things in common and how he spent less time with baji.
I mean, they seemed like pretty close friends so don't think he'd just hate him after spending less time with him. Also, Baji stated that Kensho was a ghost Kazutora "created", created most likely meaning some kind of manipulation, or we can also use my theory which is Kazutora's Dark Impulses triggering something in Kensho to like obey Kazutora, like what Mikey did to Sanzu when they were kids.
I do think Kensho is superior of course, but this in specific isn't about that, it is strictly about what I explicitly wrote.
Like I said, you're using your premise and base your argument on that, which would be question begging.
Also this discussion is boring and repetitive, so I would like to not continue it. There are a lot more interesting things to talk about.
I agree. We can discuss it more in the CRT I'm gonna make.
 
Just like Kazutora's statement lol.

I can tell the opposite.

We always go with the most probable interperation when we're at equal interperation, which would be my interp.
Agree to disagree.
Like I said, you're using your premise and base your argument on that, which would be question begging.
Not really, this is the thing in question
if the smartest student of some school was to left the school, the smartest student next to him would be the smartest student, and if a random person were to ask a random student who's the smartest student in the said school, his answer would not be the former smartest student but the new one because he's not a part of the school anymore.
Premise 1: The smartest student leaves the school.
Premise 2: The next smartest student becomes the smartest student.
Premise 3: A random person asks a random student who the smartest student is.
Conclusion: The answer would be the new smartest student, not the former one, because the former student is no longer part of the school.

This is a straightforward logical argument where the conclusion follows from the premises. The reasoning is sound: if the smartest student leaves, the next smartest student takes their place.


I agree. We can discuss it more in the CRT I'm gonna make
I'm probably neither oppose or support about that specific thing but I'm curious to see the other things you'd include
 
Agree to disagree.
I guess.
Premise 1: The smartest student leaves the school.
Premise 2: The next smartest student becomes the smartest student.
Premise 3: A random person asks a random student who the smartest student is.
Conclusion: The answer would be the new smartest student, not the former one, because the former student is no longer part of the school.

This is a straightforward logical argument where the conclusion follows from the premises. The reasoning is sound: if the smartest student leaves, the next smartest student takes their place.
I've bolded the part where you were wrong. You're assuming that, the smartest student is the smartest while that's also your premise.

Just like how you're assuming that Kensho is stronger than Chonbo and Chome while making your argument.
I'm probably neither oppose or support about that specific thing but I'm curious to see the other things you'd include
Inverse speed and AP scalings are mostly fine, other than some bad errors. Though the lifting strength scaling of the verse is pretty ******. Like so many characters scaling to Average Human or Above Average Human, while even non fighters/characters that scale to no names have accepted Class 1, and non evaluated at least Superhuman LS feats.
 
I've bolded the part where you were wrong. You're assuming that, the smartest student is the smartest while that's also your premise.

Just like how you're assuming that Kensho is stronger than Chonbo and Chome while making your argument.
The argument does not assume without reason that the smartest student is the smartest. It begins with the accepted fact that a particular student is recognized as the smartest within the school. The argument does not assume its conclusion within the premises, it logically derives the conclusion from a set of accepted facts.

Not sure why you're bringing up the Kensho example again it's completely independent from the other as like I said

Inverse speed and AP scalings are mostly fine, other than some bad errors. Though the lifting strength scaling of the verse is pretty ******. Like so many characters scaling to Average Human or Above Average Human, while even non fighters/characters that scale to no names have accepted Class 1, and non evaluated at least Superhuman LS feats.
3.87MJ ap looking tasty, also if that choji calc gets accepted it should probably scale to most of the characters I guess.
 
The argument does not assume its conclusion within the premises, it logically derives the conclusion from a set of accepted facts.
And those accepted facts are your premise so
Not sure why you're bringing up the Kensho example again it's completely independent from the other as like I said
If it's completely independent from Kensho, why bring it up?
3.87MJ ap looking tasty
I don't understand why Taiju's percentage multipliers aren't used tbh. They are pretty consistent both AP and speed wise, maybe even lifting strength wise.
also if that choji calc gets accepted it should probably scale to most of the characters I guess.
Choji has no lifting strength scaling lol. He is shown being able to beat no names, but he only does so via speed advantage and weaponry, not raw strength. His lifting strength would still scale relatively to no names, thus the whole verse pretty much.
 
And those accepted facts are your premise so
A premise is a statement or an idea upon which an argument is built, so nothing wrong with that.
If it's completely independent from Kensho, why bring it up?
It goes back to this actually
if X person no longer is a part of Y group he used to be in and Z person were to rate the Y group members in terms of XYZ, he wouldn't include the X person because he's no longer part of that group.
About how the time of the assessment is critical when someone states things.
Of course you can associate with the Kensho thing, but the main thing I'm trying to say there isn't what you think I'm trying to say but that we don't have definitive proof on when Kazutora made his assesment which was my main gripe. And I prefer this to be left already since it's always going circular.
I don't understand why Taiju's percentage multipliers aren't used tbh. They are pretty consistent both AP and speed wise, maybe even lifting strength wise.
People weren't really invested in Taiju's multiplier, but there are evidences of it being correct, i doubt anyone would disagree with it using your reasoning you gave me on discord. The only people I can imagine disagreeing with it are the fans of characters Mikey got compared to, since they are also capable of disagreeing with reading manga based on panel orders.
Choji has no lifting strength scaling lol. He is shown being able to beat no names, but he only does so via speed advantage and weaponry, not raw strength. His lifting strength would still scale relatively to no names, thus the whole verse pretty much.
Maybe, but in my humble opinion, it'd just scale to him, Kisaki and characters above him.
We don't really have hard evidence on why randoms and Kisaki would scale to it.
But the fact that Kisaki is shown stronger than him (though it was Kisaki's plan for him to target Mikey [so you may as well disagree with this]), or at the very least equal to him in terms of ap, made me believe that he'd scale to him since if you're portrayed to be stronger than someone, it's more likely that you'll also scale above in other stats.
 
A premise is a statement or an idea upon which an argument is built, so nothing wrong with that.
It's question begging which is a fallacy as you're using your own premise to prove something, while the premise is already at question.
People weren't really invested in Taiju's multiplier, but there are evidences of it being correct, i doubt anyone would disagree with it using your reasoning you gave me on discord. The only people I can imagine disagreeing with it are the fans of characters Mikey got compared to, since they are also capable of disagreeing with reading manga based on panel orders.
The thing is that it's at best a 3.3x multiplier, and I've seen 5x multipliers getting accepted with only one statement on this site. Like the multipliers page states, we only need really reliable proof for 100x or above multipliers.
Maybe, but in my humble opinion, it'd just scale to him, Kisaki and characters above him.
We don't really have hard evidence on why randoms and Kisaki would scale to it.
Eh, Kisaki was shown to be struggling aganist a really weakened Takemichi without his Resolution (I think?) and that Takemichi is comparable at best to no name delinquents.
But the fact that Kisaki is shown stronger than him (though it was Kisaki's plan for him to target Mikey [so you may as well disagree with this]), or at the very least equal to him in terms of ap, made me believe that he'd scale to him since if you're portrayed to be stronger than someone, it's more likely that you'll also scale above in other stats.
Don't think wiki scales lifting strength like that. It literally gets stated that AP and Lifting Strength gets scaled differently.
 
Also, I'm planning to make like a series of matchups of Tokyo Revengers characters vs Wind Breaker characters though TR has a vs thread ban for now, so I'll wait till that ban gets lifted i guess. I'll just list some possible matchups here;

Sakura (doesn't have a profile yet) vs Takemichi (both are MCs)
Umemiya vs Mikey (both are charismatic commanders and top tiers of their verse)
Suo or Tomiyama vs Izana (Suo is a provocative fighter like Izana and Tomiyama is (was) insane like Izana)
Hiragi vs Draken (both seen as kinda like vice commanders of their gangs and extremely royal to their commander)
Kaji vs Angry (both have berserk states they get into when they're pushed to the limit)
 
It's question begging which is a fallacy as you're using your own premise to prove something, while the premise is already at question.
Question begging is a fallacy where the conclusion is assumed in the premise.

However, in this case, the argument is not question begging because it does not assume the conclusion within the premises. Instead, it follows a logical progression from accepted facts to a reasonable conclusion.
The thing is that it's at best a 3.3x multiplier, and I've seen 5x multipliers getting accepted with only one statement on this site. Like the multipliers page states, we only need really reliable proof for 100x or above multipliers.
Yeah it should easily be accepted for AP and Speed since it's pretty consistent, I doubt people would disagree with it except for the ones I talked about.
Eh, Kisaki was shown to be struggling aganist a really weakened Takemichi without his Resolution (I think?) and that Takemichi is comparable at best to no name delinquents.
That Takemichi is with his resolution, Takemichi without resolution is the Takemichi at the beginning of the Valhalla fight, the coward version of him, but once his resolution kicks in, he easily defeated a goon, Takemichi without resolution is weaker than goons, at least from what they portrayed.
Also I don't think fatigue doesn't affect Takemichi as much as it does to other characters because of his resilience and his strong will (or supernatural willpower), and he had time to physically rest for the entire time from when Mikey arrived into the battlefield upto when Draken drove him at his motorcycle and chased down Kisaki and Hanma.
Don't think wiki scales lifting strength like that. It literally gets stated that AP and Lifting Strength gets scaled differently.
Yeah, that's why I'm not sure, but I think that if someone is superior to another character, it's more likely than not they're superior if not, equal to the other one in stats as well.
 
Also, I'm planning to make like a series of matchups of Tokyo Revengers characters vs Wind Breaker characters though TR has a vs thread ban for now, so I'll wait till that ban gets lifted i guess. I'll just list some possible matchups here;

Sakura (doesn't have a profile yet) vs Takemichi (both are MCs)
Umemiya vs Mikey (both are charismatic commanders and top tiers of their verse)
Suo or Tomiyama vs Izana (Suo is a provocative fighter like Izana and Tomiyama is (was) insane like Izana)
Hiragi vs Draken (both seen as kinda like vice commanders of their gangs and extremely royal to their commander)
Kaji vs Angry (both have berserk states they get into when they're pushed to the limit)
I hope it doesn't get lifted, I've seen people who vote against Mikey every single time he's matched with other characters. I've also seen them voting against him even when he had massive advantage (you know this particular one I'm talking about).

I haven't watched windbreaker but have seen people talking about them, comparing them to TR characters, is it good?
 
Question begging is a fallacy where the conclusion is assumed in the premise.

However, in this case, the argument is not question begging because it does not assume the conclusion within the premises. Instead, it follows a logical progression from accepted facts to a reasonable conclusion.
Yeah and that's what you did. You pretty much assumed that Kensho was stronger than Chonbo and Chome with the "smartest student in school leaves" stuff.
That Takemichi is with his resolution, Takemichi without resolution is the Takemichi at the beginning of the Valhalla fight, the coward version of him, but once his resolution kicks in, he easily defeated a goon, Takemichi without resolution is weaker than goons, at least from what they portrayed.
He doesn't really defeat goons easily before the final arc. He still gets damaged by them.

To be honest, Takemichi's Resolution amp is really weird. It's shown in the final arc that it gets activated for more than once, like aganist Taiju but it wasn't really treated as an amp before his fight with Kakucho, and that's why I don't like using it for different scenes.
Also I don't think fatigue doesn't affect Takemichi as much as it does to other characters because of his resilience and his strong will (or supernatural willpower), and he had time to physically rest for the entire time from when Mikey arrived into the battlefield upto when Draken drove him at his motorcycle and chased down Kisaki and Hanma.
Eh, I agree.
I hope it doesn't get lifted, I've seen people who vote against Mikey every single time he's matched with other characters. I've also seen them voting against him even when he had massive advantage (you know this particular one I'm talking about).
Yeah I do hate vs threads made with Mikey. Don't have good memories with them.
I haven't watched windbreaker but have seen people talking about them, comparing them to TR characters, is it good?
They scale to 1 megajoule rn, which is pretty good imo. I've not seen many good speed feats from the verse, but they should scale to around Subsonic, and Class 1 through bending a baseball bat.

It's also pretty good writing wise. The characters are interesting and the overall story is fun to read.
 
Yeah and that's what you did. You pretty much assumed that Kensho was stronger than Chonbo and Chome with the "smartest student in school leaves" stuff.
So you do realise the example itself has nothing wrong with it, and I don't even strictly say that Kensho is superior to them, just that I personally believe that he's superior. The example was about how critical the time of assessment is in order to conclude things as I explained above.

He doesn't really defeat goons easily before the final arc. He still gets damaged by them.

To be honest, Takemichi's Resolution amp is really weird. It's shown in the final arc that it gets activated for more than once, like aganist Taiju but it wasn't really treated as an amp before his fight with Kakucho, and that's why I don't like using it for different scenes.
I didn't say he can easily defeat goons, just that he easily defeated a goon in the Valhalla arc after his resolution.

Takemichi's resolution in the final arc shouldn't be compared with the one before, the final arc Takemichi is him realising he's actually strong. The resolution before the final arc is the textbook definition of resolution (according to definition when browsing it: a firm decision to do or not to do something) just about him being determined to do things.
Yeah I do hate vs threads made with Mikey. Don't have good memories with them.
I can smell people trying to remove his abilities, and I wouldn't be surprised if they try to remove what's explicitly stated canonically, it happened once with one of his abilities disarticulation, it will likely happen with his genius level intelligence in martial arts, even though his grandfather explicitly stated he's a genius even in the japanese raws.
They scale to 1 megajoule rn, which is pretty good imo. I've not seen many good speed feats from the verse, but they should scale to around Subsonic, and Class 1 through bending a baseball bat.

It's also pretty good writing wise. The characters are interesting and the overall story is fun to read.
Might have to watch it later
 
So you do realise the example itself has nothing wrong with it, and I don't even strictly say that Kensho is superior to them, just that I personally believe that he's superior. The example was about how critical the time of assessment is in order to conclude things as I explained above.
I mean ur argument literally derived from Kensho already being accepted to be stronger than Chonbo and Chome so...
Takemichi's resolution in the final arc shouldn't be compared with the one before, the final arc Takemichi is him realising he's actually strong. The resolution before the final arc is the textbook definition of resolution (according to definition when browsing it: a firm decision to do or not to do something) just about him being determined to do things.
Yeah. His resolution before the Final Arc is more like actual willpower stuff, while in the final arc it becomes more like an Awakaned Power type amp.
I can smell people trying to remove his abilities, and I wouldn't be surprised if they try to remove what's explicitly stated canonically, it happened once with one of his abilities disarticulation,
People are still trying to remove that lmao. Being able to attack inner layers of the body is explicitly stated to be Dura Neg in the verse page. I don't get why those certain people are trying to remove that so much.

The funny part is how the same people who think hitting throats is durability negation are trying to remove an actual durability negation ability.
it will likely happen with his genius level intelligence in martial arts, even though his grandfather explicitly stated he's a genius even in the japanese raws.
Yeah, I saw some people working on setting a BIQ standard just to remove that, evfen though Mikey has much better skill feats than being stated to being a genius.
Might have to watch it later
I'm sure you'll want to start reading the manga after finishing the anime.
 
I mean ur argument literally derived from Kensho already being accepted to be stronger than Chonbo and Chome so...
It's not directly about Kensho, but I see why you're confused.

Yeah. His resolution before the Final Arc is more like actual willpower stuff, while in the final arc it becomes more like an Awakaned Power type amp.
Yup, also I forgot to mention the punch that got Taiju on his knees, it was probably due to the combined effects of Taiju having his back stabbed a while ago and Takemichi punching him in the chin.
I don't get why those certain people are trying to remove that so much.
See who they are a fan of and check if they're compared with Mikey, you'll get your answer lmao

The funny part is how the same people who think hitting throats is durability negation are trying to remove an actual durability negation ability.
😭
Yeah, I saw some people working on setting a BIQ standard just to remove that, evfen though Mikey has much better skill feats than being stated to being a genius.
I'm curious to see that
 
Yup, also I forgot to mention the punch that got Taiju on his knees, it was probably due to the combined effects of Taiju having his back stabbed a while ago and Takemichi punching him in the chin.
I mean the stab shouldn't affect him as he already stated that it wasn't a deep enough wound, and Taiju probably has enough stamina to fight normally after losing some blood.

Also that punch didn't really damage him at all imo. He stated that the punch didn't even hurt him but fell down cuz he got hit in the chin and got surprise attacked. It's like the time when Takemichi counter punched Mikey using his precog and made him fall, which didn't actually hurt Mikey at all as Takemichi scales to Kakucho stats wise who got no diffed by DI Mikey before. The only reason Mikey fell down was because he got caught off guard. I think the same thing happened with Taiju.
See who they are a fan of and check if they're compared with Mikey, you'll get your answer lmao
Hmmmmmmm
 
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