Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 5

[Scrlk666777]

I'm only guessing here though and others will correct me if I am wrong but I think it will only be a post headshot upgrade and won't be applied to pre headshot as he has never shown any feats to be put at planetary level.

Like I said this is just a guess,

 

[Malox1696]

it would be applied to the pre head shot too for the barrier as it's literally the same

 

[Scrlk666777]

it would be applied to the pre head shot too for the barrier as it's literally the same

I knew I'd be corrected lol. I'm guessing Black wings and White wings would also be upgraded to 5B as well?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm against applying it to pre-headshot.

It is backwards scaling to a major degree and there is nothing that says that Accelerator's power couldn't have grown in all this time.


Black & White wings would be affected, though, as those keys should show his current power with Black/White wings.

 

[SchroKatze]

I actually agree with not scaling to pre-headshot. Accel's calculation power was nerfed until he got black wings.

Also... I feel that the wings shouldn't be keys, since Accelerator can freely acces them with his emotional state. Its like SSJ transformations.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Also... I feel that the wings shouldn't be keys, since Accelerator can freely acces them with his emotional state. Its like SSJ transformations.

They aren't as freely accessible as SSJ transforms, since Accelerator can't just decide to enter the state, and for example ultra instinct is a separate key for goku as well.

 

[LazyHunter]

A new base key with Qliphah and the new tricks he's got in NT might be a good idea.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Speaking of Accel, shouldn't the fact that he can sense magic be added to the list of his abiltes?

 

[Reyzakurrota]

Ah, one things again. I still confused with pre and post headahot. Does accel post headshot has more calculation than pre headshoot, because post headahoot have nearly 10.000 misaka network?

 

[Siegfried10]

Pre-Headshot has more calculation ability.

Accel > Misaka Network, it was stated on the novel.

 

[Notstn]

Black wings worked more like a "last stand" wildcard for him or as an enrage when he lost control of his emotions completely (it seems he had to fight against it early on not to hurt anyone he cared about). White wings represented him transitioning into Aeon of Horus and a more of a Thelemic mindset where he did actually manage to be "good", regardless of what he himself thought. He has a feat of summonning white wings freely (Othinus arc); though it may have been heavily influenced by his desire to help out Touma intentionally showing off his power and being flashy (he would never do that under normal circumstances) and then getting defeated.

Otherwise I can't think of many reasons for why white wings haven't been seen that much - he got a much better control of his emotion and could avoid enrages, and considering his attitude of least power to get the job done later on and consider that white wings were likely still a state where he was afraid he could lose control (consider that angelic state doesn't have a stop button (at least he doesn't know how to stop it aside from getting KO'd)).

But yeah black and white wings are still subject to emotional state to one degree or another. I don't think platinum wings will reappear if he truly ascended beyond Aeons as he didn't fight using them (the attack against the demon was Thelemic in nature, whether it was true will or just an example of powerful magick is not known).

It also seems that despite Espers not suffering from recoil from most Thelemic abilities, even magicians with sufficiently powerful magic (Aleister had to install anti-recoil measures to dampen the recoil of Blasting Rod which still hurt him, but without them it would just blow him to bits instead). Accelerator being a swiss army knife of proxy abilities can dampen that recoil himself on the other hand.

Regarding "base" Accelerator, aside from all the occult stuff, Puzzle is pretty much bound to him and also cares for and also can spawn by herself, without being summoned explicitly (not only can she fight she can, which is arguably more OP, tell Accelerator how to use his power more efficiently by using occult knowledge). Their current fight choreography is still sloppy but I believe it's just a matter of experience.

 

[Malox1696]

I'm against applying it to pre-headshot.
It is backwards scaling to a major degree and there is nothing that says that Accelerator's power couldn't have grown in all this time.

but it's just reflection the barrier always worked that way so his barrier durability should be the same

 

[DontTalkDT]

It having the same mechanism, doesn't mean it having the same power. Esper abilities can grow in strength.

 

[Malox1696]

yes but strength has nothing to do with this as it's calculations

 

[SchroKatze]

Accel's reflection doesn't involve magnitude tho. Scaling his magic reflection to his base pre-headshot reflection is dumb, but "durability" scaling is totally understandable.

 

[DontTalkDT]

yes but strength has nothing to do with this as it's calculations

Calculation speed relates to the speed of the reflection, but not what the maximum strength of vector he can redirect is.

Accel's reflection doesn't involve magnitude tho. Scaling his magic reflection to his base pre-headshot reflection is dumb, but "durability" scaling is totally understandable.

We have been over this. We do not have the evidence to make a solid case of that not being a NLF. That's literally the only reason he has a durability stat for his reflection.

 

[LazyHunter]

I'm personally on the "giving a Durability to Accelerator's redirection/reflection" makes no sense camp, but I understand why we do it. I think we can leave that choice of whether it scales or not to the CRT, I personally don't lean either way.

Checking the raws and translations for the new manga chapters it looks like Misaki gets an upgrade (Astral Buddy has a profile page and translation mentions that the maximum amount of people she can control with simple commands is in the triple digits). It also looks like Accelerator might get Sound Manipulation. Offensive, that is.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Here's a thread.

Best we get this done before we start the NT 22 CRT.

 

[Malox1696]

i think u misunderstood what i said, i meant if the barrier can reflect an attack post head shot it should reflect it just fine pre head shot unless it involves unknown vector, he does not get any boost in the novel, he just learns to use his power in varied ways and some vector he did not know before, his calculation power with just the electrode is still lower than it was before

 

[Malox1696]

Removing the barrier restriction would better cause now that he can mess with the phases and rules we can clearly see that it's an hax and not something that can brute forced

 

[DontTalkDT]

You don't know if his vector manipulation ability didn't get stronger. Esper abilities can grow in power due to various things, which includes through battles. If his ability has a limit on how powerful an attack he can reflect, then the limit could at the beginning of the series have been lower than it currently is.


Bring the barrier restriction stuff up in the thread. The tree stuff is not or only very indirectly related to his vector manipulation, though. It doesn't really tell you anything about his ability to maniulate energy.

 

[Scrlk666777]

It looks like Accel can manipulate sound.

 

[Malox1696]

well yes sound has a vector like anything else

 

[Scrlk666777]

well yes sound has a vector like anything else

I think this is the first time we actually see him manipulate sound though instead of just nulifying it. I also can't see it in the abilities section on his profile.

 

[Malox1696]

well this: The ability to manipulate and control any vector he comes in contact with encompasses sound manipulation

 

[Scrlk666777]

well this: The ability to manipulate and control any vector he comes in contact with encompasses sound manipulation

Ah, that makes sense.

 

[JBennett]

About 5-b pre-headshot I have a question before stating my opinion, how much of the battle involved 'unknown vectors'?

 

[Notstn]

A lot (at least at the start). At the very start he was not capable of doing anything as fancy as manipulating AIM, only learning about the nature of it during his first encounter with Aiwass, it seems that when fighting alongside Kazakiri against Gabriel he somewhat refined it and was able to control her concentrated AIM protrusions and direct them for his attacks. By NT22 at least half of the things he comes in contact with he either learned from Puzzle or experiencied it firsthand and then likely incorporated that into his technique. I guess it's not stated in LNs but it's unlikely his abilities just improve like that, I would guess that during brief times he gets "off", he probably refines various techniques (similar to his Aerokinesis).

By the end he seems to be able to control magic, magick and for his grand finale in NT22 actually managed to unleash a massive Thelemic attack (whether that was using his ability or not is not known however, Thelemites don't seem to require casting depending on the occasion).

Also currently as AC's superintendent he can likely get his hands on the plans for A.A.A. as well as anti-recoil technology that was incorporated into the Blasting Rod, which means it's pretty viable for him to integrate it into something like the handle of his crutch to dampen the effects of using magic directly.

 

[Malox1696]

What is this anti recoil technology u are talking about ?

 

[Notstn]

What is this anti recoil technology u are talking about ?

Aleister developed some fancy anti-recoil technology, early on for the Blasting Rod (it was so powerful that even magicians suffered recoil from using it). Without it, using the Blasting Rod would probably blow the user to pieces, although it didn't completely eliminate the recoil, it made it "safe".

For A.A.A. he had to make it usable by Espers, this involved some more advanced and not-well-explained improved anti-recoil technology that dampened recoil Espers experienced when using it (as it is a magical item). That said Mikoto still needed Misaki to help her overcome the pain of using A.A.A. and concentrate.

Since that was developed in Academy City which is now under Accelerator's control, he would have access to all the research facilities and everything else used by the previous superintendent - Aleister. With that, he could attempt to integrate similar type of tech into something he usually has on him (like the handle of his crutch) to dampen the recoil without him having to do it using his Esper power, allowing him to actually use magic(k) in a more versatile way (ie. in combat) versus having to focus all of his ability on preventing recoil when casting (a feat was capable of at least on one occassion, casting while mostly nullifying the recoil via "vector control" on himself).

 

[DestinyDude0]

What is this anti recoil technology u are talking about ?

Aleister developed some fancy anti-recoil technology, early on for the Blasting Rod (it was so powerful that even magicians suffered recoil from using it). Without it, using the Blasting Rod would probably blow the user to pieces, although it didn't completely eliminate the recoil, it made it "safe".
For A.A.A. he had to make it usable by Espers, this involved some more advanced and not-well-explained improved anti-recoil technology that dampened recoil Espers experienced when using it (as it is a magical item). That said Mikoto still needed Misaki to help her overcome the pain of using A.A.A. and concentrate.

Since that was developed in Academy City which is now under Accelerator's control, he would have access to all the research facilities and everything else used by the previous superintendent - Aleister. With that, he could attempt to integrate similar type of tech into something he usually has on him (like the handle of his crutch) to dampen the recoil without him having to do it using his Esper power, allowing him to actually use magic(k) in a more versatile way (ie. in combat) versus having to focus all of his ability on preventing recoil when casting (a feat was capable of at least on one occassion, casting while mostly nullifying the recoil via "vector control" on himself).

Uh, citation for the Blasting Rod claim. I don't remember that being said at all, and the Rod is a Spiritual Item anyways, so it's unlikely to be modified (less it lose it's functionality)

No, the AAA was designed solely to be used by Kihara Noukan, who was a sentient dog and unlikely to be part of the Esper program. And magical recoil is very different from experiencing a bad headache. Citation needed again.

The reason why Misaka gets nosebleeds is because of the curse-reversal circle (Abrakadabra) accidentally causing her to perform magic. Not the actual AAA itself.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Mikoto also has an AAA which she has been using since NT 15. She even has her own key with he AAA on this very site. Mikoto gets headaches because she only indirectly uses magic rather than directly but even indirectly she gets headaches and nose bleeds which is subdued by Misaki. You must not have read the novels from NT 15 onwards if you don't know about Mikoto having an AAA of her own, she is literally never without it.

 

[DestinyDude0]

Mikoto also has an AAA which she has been using since NT 15. She even has her own key with he AAA on this very site. Mikoto gets headaches because she only indirectly uses magic rather than directly but even indirectly she gets headaches and nose bleeds which is subdued by Misaki. You must not have read the novels from NT 15 onwards if you don't know about Mikoto having an AAA of her own, she is literally never without it.

I know all of that, I'm on NT22. That doesn't change the fact that the DESIGN for the AAA is meant for Noukan's use alone, regardless of what materials are used in its replicas. And Mikoto had been using her AAA long before Misaki became connected to it anyways, so there's a disrepancy there. Keep reaching though.

 

[DestinyDude0]

I also have a question regarding Fiamma's tier though. Why is he listed as only being Planet level in LPSaD form? Base Fiamma is limited by the degradation of the Holy Right, so I understand that. But in his LPSaD form, Fiamma has complete control over the Phase of Heaven. Nephthys is granted a single-use 1-C attack for being able to embed a new Phase over the current one, so clearly the general consensus of this community is that Phase = Universe. Is this not a logical contradiction? I vote in favor of updating his profile page.

 

[Scrlk666777]

What discrepancy?

No one even said that Mikoto started to only use the AAA when Misaki came connected with it. The only thing that was said was that Misaki helps subdue the nosebleeds and headaches.

Quick break down

Nt 15-17 Mikoto uses AAA on her own and receives headaches and nosebleeds.


NT 19-22 Mikoto allows Misaki connection and this helps with the headaches and nosebleeds.

 

[Zensum]

@Destiny We treat Heaven as a planet sized phase or else he would be a higher tier.

 

[DestinyDude0]

@Destiny We treat Heaven as a planet sized phase or else he would be a higher tier.

But...why? Are Phases not equal? The Black World as seen in NT9 wiped out all the physical matter in the universe. That would be 3-A at the very minimum. There's no reason to 'assume' one Phase is smaller or larger than another one. Should they not be treated as equal unless evidence proves otherwise? Heaven is no more 'special' than Asgard or whatnot.

 

[DestinyDude0]

What discrepancy?
No one even said that Mikoto started to only use the AAA when Misaki came connected with it. The only thing that was said was that Misaki helps subdue the nosebleeds and headaches.

Quick break down

Nt 15-17 Mikoto uses AAA on her own and receives headaches and nosebleeds.


NT 19-22 Mikoto allows Misaki connection and this helps with the headaches and nosebleeds.

Yes, but what does this have anything to do with the anti-recoil technology you claimed was in the AAA? You've gone completely off-topic.

 

[Notstn]

What is this anti recoil technology u are talking about ?

Aleister developed some fancy anti-recoil technology, early on for the Blasting Rod (it was so powerful that even magicians suffered recoil from using it). Without it, using the Blasting Rod would probably blow the user to pieces, although it didn't completely eliminate the recoil, it made it "safe".
For A.A.A. he had to make it usable by Espers, this involved some more advanced and not-well-explained improved anti-recoil technology that dampened recoil Espers experienced when using it (as it is a magical item). That said Mikoto still needed Misaki to help her overcome the pain of using A.A.A. and concentrate.

Since that was developed in Academy City which is now under Accelerator's control, he would have access to all the research facilities and everything else used by the previous superintendent - Aleister. With that, he could attempt to integrate similar type of tech into something he usually has on him (like the handle of his crutch) to dampen the recoil without him having to do it using his Esper power, allowing him to actually use magic(k) in a more versatile way (ie. in combat) versus having to focus all of his ability on preventing recoil when casting (a feat was capable of at least on one occassion, casting while mostly nullifying the recoil via "vector control" on himself).

Uh, citation for the Blasting Rod claim. I don't remember that being said at all, and the Rod is a Spiritual Item anyways, so it's unlikely to be modified (less it lose it's functionality)
No, the AAA was designed solely to be used by Kihara Noukan, who was a sentient dog and unlikely to be part of the Esper program. And magical recoil is very different from experiencing a bad headache. Citation needed again.

The reason why Misaka gets nosebleeds is because of the curse-reversal circle (Abrakadabra) accidentally causing her to perform magic. Not the actual AAA itself.

I didn't say recoil was like getting a bad headache, I said that A.A.A. despite being a partially magical item, having been originally designed by Aleister and includes the ability for Aleister to directly channel magic through it, I believe Mikoto's A.A.A. had the same "option" since Aleister was able to make use of it in NT21 (I doubt she was fully aware of what A.A.A. itself entailed or how some of its internal components functioned including the link to Aleister - it would make no sense for her to knowingly incorporate that part into it).

I think it was explicitly stated at the end of NT21 that A.A.A. was not designed for Noukan's use alone with it being adaptable enough even for Espers (as such, it would require the use of some form of recoil dampeners, as, otherwise presumingly Aleister channeling magic through it would flat out kill an Esper using it at the time - since Mikoto has no way to fix her internal wounds or dampen recoil by herself).

Just going by NT21 alone:

• Aleister still had some control control over A.A.A. in form of his link to it, even in Mikoto's variation, that was clearly demonstrated.
• Either that mechanism somehow avoids the magic affecting the Esper (how?) or it doesn't instead relying on something similar to anti-recoil technology used by Aleister early on.
• Without one of the above, Mikoto would have not survived Aleister directing magic through it or at least would have been extremely heavily injured.
• At the end of NT21 it was stated that A.A.A. was designed to be adaptable by Aleister from the very start.
• A.A.A. itself is a partially magical item, namely due to the link.

For some citations (NT21 only); Aleister being able to directly channel magic through A.A.A.:

NT21 Ch3.19:
A.A.A.

Anti Art Attachment.

"I see."

It was meant to be piloted by Kihara Noukan. While hiding in the Windowless Building, Aleister had used that device to send her own magic elsewhere in order to kill the Magic Gods.

"That really is a fruit of your labors, isn't it!?"

Intercepting the attack from the sky had created a slight opening.

Mathers could do nothing in that time, but he still had a savage smile on his lips.

The colossal motorcycle fired an identical red light from one of its cannons and it tore into Mathers's side.

 

[Scrlk666777]

What discrepancy?
No one even said that Mikoto started to only use the AAA when Misaki came connected with it. The only thing that was said was that Misaki helps subdue the nosebleeds and headaches.

Quick break down

Nt 15-17 Mikoto uses AAA on her own and receives headaches and nosebleeds.


NT 19-22 Mikoto allows Misaki connection and this helps with the headaches and nosebleeds.

Yes, but what does this have anything to do with the anti-recoil technology you claimed was in the AAA? You've gone completely off-topic.

I was just Mikoto had an AAA because before you edited your post, you made it sound like she didn't have one. This was just a case of getting wires crossed.