Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 5

[Malox1696]

Re-read my post about his ability being reliant on proxies to manifest it. That is essentially what that entire part was about.

What i mean is that he can't really change magnitude, he can add others or optimize or most likely use the third law of motion and use the opposite that the object would exert towards him against himself

but we really don't know how far his vector optimization amplifies the existing vector

 

[Notstn]

well things are pretty inconsistent about his durability (can take sweep can't take a punch+rock from touma) that's why i think either the wings give him some durability or he uses vector control on himself to "move" the damage away so IB would still knock him out as he can't fully redirect the impact on his body
btw lately he has been more liberal with vector control remotely, example: vector slice vs processor suit, vs nephthys and vs the GD

and vector control is not "crazy power" it's actually a lot less flashy and more difficult than controlling the air

Versus Nephthys was NT22, that was Puzzle/Accelerator duo, Puzzle constantly bridged gaps in his lack of magical knowledge for him as well as helping him in many other ways (yes first time she kinda accidentally screwed up against Nephthys). His "win" against Nephthys nearly KO'd him due to him using occult knowledge and magic, if it wasn't for his ability for self-reparation/surgery, any time something like that happened, he would just bleed out and die.

"Vector Control" is an ability that, if you want to break down is "Proxy Energy/Matter Manipulation". Vector Slice isn't a thing for a proxy ability, he has to manifest it through something.

IB nullifies all supernatural phenomenon, this includes Accelerator's angelic durability during that state (it seems to come back in a few seconds), this negates his reflection too (yes both phenomenon that give him such durability and protection are both nullified for a few seconds letting Touma land a blow, not to mention that Accelerator does not fight strategically during enrages)). The punch and a rock was the time he was actively intending to lose. Otherwise it would be super out of character for him to open at full power with white wings and also approach Touma, who can nullify powers at close range using IB purposely losing the range advantage. Accelerator knew what he was doing. He was intending to lose but he wanted to show as much power as possible just to stop others from going after Touma at that time.

Sweep massively harmed Accelerator, again he would have died if it wasn't for his self-surgery stuff. He uses Aerokinesis since it's something he learned from childhood and since it's a very versatile ability not to mention that it gives him a very good and readily available proxy to use pretty much everywhere.

 

[Malox1696]

actively intending to lose or not he got knocked out he didn't fake it, that's why i say it's a bit inconsistent

i would say more reality warping as u can't flip vectors like he does without affecting the magnitude even with energy manipulations, and it fit's better esper theory as they do quantum changes to the particle that are unknown around them creating result not really possible (example kekinay) by using their personal reality ( or the way they see the world)

 

[KTouma545]

guys shaking the galaxy is obv figuratively, kamachi just meant the rules of the galaxy, it's even more reinforced by the mention of angel fall as it messed with the rules not physical power

LMFAO thats tremendous lowball. Boy in a world where people could destroy universes just by moving their leg you think shaking agalaxy with Angelic powers (even beyond) its figuratevely. Also it clearly states that he wouldve causen WAY MORE damage than angel fall. Dude applied tree on the cosmos thats would be enough to put him on universal tier (like some are already doing)... He is not imo, but shaking the world to the end of the galaxy is clearly not figuratevely.since he already surpassed nerfed magic gods which still could destroy tje world if they felt like it. Its not wank, its just whats written.

Archangel Gabriel erased all the stars in the sky just with his mere presence lol. Accel is similar to an archangel right now (the first archangel of the new tree).

 

[Malox1696]

the damage is to the rules of the world technically speaking that's way more dangerous to just shaking the galaxy (lets say i change the rules from gravity pulls u in to gravity pushes u instead or time move forward to time goes back to itself) but pure AP is not really applicable

btw Gabriel uses a spell that's again reality warping and reality warping in to aru is broken as **** (blasting rod, MG, accel reflection, holly right,etc) as it does not exactly follows equal exchange (that's why we have sparks) but spell are either very specific and difficult to counter or ultra wide but even saying "go away wicked spirit" counters them

 

[Notstn]

guys shaking the galaxy is obv figuratively, kamachi just meant the rules of the galaxy, it's even more reinforced by the mention of angel fall as it messed with the rules not physical power

LMFAO thats tremendous lowball. Boy in a world where people could destroy universes just by moving their leg you think shaking agalaxy with Angelic powers (even beyond) its figuratevely. Also it clearly states that he wouldve causen WAY MORE damage than angel fall. Dude applied tree on the cosmos thats would be enough to put him on universal tier (like some are already doing)... He is not imo, but shaking the world to the end of the galaxy is clearly not figuratevely.since he already surpassed nerfed magic gods which still could destroy tje world if they felt like it. Its not wank, its just whats written.
Archangel Gabriel erased all the stars in the sky just with his mere presence lol. Accel is similar to an archangel right now (the first archangel of the new tree).

If we go by that theory, Accelerator would be similar to Michael (Daniel 12:1 from the Bible basically says that Michael would appear at end times to save humanity), except instead of a Christian Archangel he would be a Thelemic Archangel. Michael is incredibly powerful, considering Christian entities are below Thelemic entities ... but it gets complicated quickly due to Thelemites being hard to gauge in terms of power.

Also logically next Archangel would be the parallel to Christian Lucifer. That could be interesting if that train of thought (Thelemic Trinity) is correct.

 

[Malox1696]

btw the real talk is IT

even after the creation of the new tree, anna appearance, etc everyone was far more fixated on it now that the "lock" is broken

 

[Notstn]

btw the real talk is IT
even after the creation of the new tree, anna appearance, etc everyone was far more fixated on it now that the "lock" is broken

Very very little is known about any of that, it's difficult to even start speculating. Touma's "beyond the right hand" power is related to him having attributes of Hadit, a Thelemic (Aeon of Horus) Deity of a rather weird nature as he is basically the Horus counterpart to Ra (Aeon of Osiris Correctio, Ra is not of any Aeon, he is supposedly "the Creator", as far as where Ra came from, there's multiple theories, one involving "he just sort of popped up"). Egyptian Mythology implies that Hadit is an incarnation of Ra. I'm too tired to write an explanation at this point but basically "Ra is like a super big deal and also like super super powerful and stuff".

That's basically the summary of what's known about "IT" at this point. Touma has attributes of Hadit (which often come out as serpents when he's separated from IB). IB suppressed the actual power, considering that unless IB was reconnected to Touma the Hadit attributes would actually run out of control ... well yeah that's about all that's known for now.

(Sorry for the sloppy explanation, I'm kinda tired)

 

[Malox1696]

i knew about the Hadit theory but coronzon using him for spell seems to debunk it, people are thinking of thyphon (that even has hand of dragons) now

 

[LazyHunter]

Besides the new stuff in this volume we are still missing a couple of Aleister's spells (St. Margaret's stepping spell and Babalon's beam) and updating Junko Hokaze.

Rereading OT22 I've also found a statement for Aiwass being capable of easily destroying the planet, so we can also add that as an extra justification for his first key.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Besides the new stuff in this volume we are still missing a couple of Aleister's spells (St. Margaret's stepping spell and Babalon's beam) and updating Junko Hokaze.
Rereading OT22 I've also found a statement for Aiwass being capable of easily destroying the planet, so we can also add that as an extra justification for his first key.

That and Coronzon's and others speed would probably also have changed if anything of this gets accepted.

If you want to do the Aleister edits I can unlock him.

I have for now decided to not read everything written above, 'cause it's lots of text and not all about stats. So I will for now just write my thoughts of some stuff.


First, scaling wise nerfed Magic God's, Coronzon and Base Accel are probably around the same ballpark, due to putting up decent fights against each other. Considering Aleister put up a decent fight against Coronzon as well, I guess he also profits.

Planet level is a given all of them, I think.

The question is if universe level is an option as well.

Pro:

-Coronzon overpowered Imagine Breaker

-Coronzon's Flaming Sword Magick is stated to be comparable to Gungnir

Contra:

-Coronzon needs the Ceremony of Mo Athair to destroy the universe or even just half the universe. It is made clear that she can not archieve that without it

-Without vessel the same magick didn't manage to overpower Imagine Breaker. Maybe Coronzon's just weaker like that, but it could also be a compatibility issue.

-This would upgrade lots of people without comparable showings

I would like opinions on that ranking.


With that let's get to platinum wings Accelerator. Given the holistic esper comparision him shaking the galaxy is probably literal.

I will make a calc for that feat, but it seems like I have to retract my prior statements. It quite possibly is just 4-B.

That aside, the only real power he has shown to gain at this point is forced astral projection. Which is a pretty good power.


Then we have new abilities for Coronzon. I haven't made myself a list, so if someone else writes those descriptions I would be thankful. One of the most debatable ability is probably the priority of Aeon of Horus stuff to Aeon of Osiris & Isis stuff. Would "Resistance to non-thelematic religion based magic" be a suitable translation into vs-battles terms of that? Should she have resistance to exorcism?


Misaki gets Category 061. I don't think we know how strong Aethyr Avatars, aside from Coronzon, are so Misaka probably doesn't gain anything. (Unless we mention her "boosted by Aleister" potention, but I think that would just clutter the page)

Niang Niang gains spark stuff and Nephthys gets boosting magic. Qliphah gets tornado stuff.

Anything else?

 

[LazyHunter]

@DontTalkDT

We can add Aleister's stuff with everything else in the CRT, I think.

Magic Gods/Accelerator scaling to Coronzon seems clear.

As for universe level and the Flaming Sword, Flaming Sword is directly scaled to Gungnir by the novel itself and wrecked Touma pretty badly even through IB (Gungnir only broke two of his fingers). But it is clearly stronger than her regular attacks, and the attack obviously doesn't have much AoE, despite the novels remarks. So maybe give the scaling to that attack in particular.

We still have the issue with Mina Mathers stopping one of Coronzon's attacks, even if it was the "weaker because not using a pure element" one.

Agree with Accelerator's wings. Probably should mention vector defense probably saving him from Nepthys' water magic, and the water weakness. Can't think of anything else that's new besides the "spear". (Probably should add Energy Manipulation and Water Manipulation to the list of things he can do with vector manipulation).

I'll have to reread the novel for Coronzon's new powers, like the mental knockout trick.

Misaki has two new Categories.

Nephthys also has water magic and Regenerationn.

Aethyr Avatars are clearly much weaker than Coronzon, but they should still have a couple feats/statement. Might mean an upgrade to A.A.A, I don't know. I can only think of these two.

It was not that a golden mass burst from the ocean floor and pierced the bottom of the ship. That would sink the ship before they could hijack it.

A giant golden pillar burst up right next to the gray ship. The wave that produced was enough to lift up the 150,000-ton ship, flood the coastal area, and cause a slight panic. Meanwhile, the golden hair complexly intertwined so the tip formed the silhouette of a winged human. From there, it was like something out of a comedy. The hair shot toward the ship's doors and struck them all like the needle of a sewing machine. It accurately grabbed the people inside, pulled them outside, and tossed them aside like weeds. The people inside the ship were thrown out into the cold sea. It did not matter what kind of experts they were. There was nothing at all they could do. They were probably defeated before figuring out who was attacking them.

[...]

It was an Aethyr Avatar, the false image of an angel.

That monster made of hair viewed its target.

It had mercilessly destroyed dozens and maybe hundreds of tons of stone when appearing inside the castle. An attack from that would be more powerful than a head-on collision with a large dump truck. The swimsuit girl would be immediately torn to pieces.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree, universe level for the flaming sword alone probably makes most sense.

Not sure what to do regarding Mina stopping a weak attack from Coronzon. Maybe an "at most" ranking?

More general than water weakness we can probably write down a weakness to having his connection the the network severed. One ability I just remembered is how Nephthys Regenerationn didn't seem to work against Acceleratorwith platinum wings (her hair staying severed and rotting away). So he can probably negate Regenerationn to some extent.

Ah, right. Misaki gets 433 as well.

How high would Nephthys Regenerationn be at least? High-Mid?


Destroying dozens of tons of stone is only Small Building level.

The wave feat is probably better, but difficult to quantify.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Would Accel need an upgrade in durability as well or maybe just the magatude bit removed?

 

[DontTalkDT]

He would get reflection dura equal to his AP.

 

[SchroKatze]

>Forced Astral Projection


Or just the classic soul ripping,

 

[Scrlk666777]

He would get reflection dura equal to his AP.

Thanks! I wasn't sure how it worked due to Accel being able to reflect Coronzon's attacks including the one she used on IB, although it might have been weaker due to the fact she didn't finish it. Who knows it was kinda ambiguous.

Another question regarding Accel but will the knowledge stuff be added? Like him gaining the 78 cards, the knowledge of the Sephiroth and the Qliphah as well as gaining knowledge beyond the abyss itself? Or will that be left out for now? I guess the last one applies to Aleister to as it mentions at the end he was able to cross the abyss.

 

[Malox1696]

1 i think the galaxy shaking is figuratively, he just added a new tree to the system screwing up a lot of rules (more similar to phase adding) and already adding removing phases is holism, i think it's more similar to what fiamma did to fix the elements but instead of fixing the rules he added a new system that does not follow the previous rules, so he screwed up a lot o things similar angel fall, we will prob see some consequence next volumes

2 the magick flame sword beat IB cause it was part physical, to further prove this later in the novel touma negates it just fine when coronzon used it with its thelema body, but from the description of the spell it still something similar to gungunir/liquid proof railgun in the mechanic as it infinitely accelerate by descending the tree

3 coronzon should be able to destroy the universe but the problem lies in the fact that she can't destroy all the other layer that's why she needed the altar and to destroy the last layer as she wanted to remove it all and restart fresh no unneeded remains of other civilizations and wanted to remove itself too

btw we have confirmation that accel can redirect the rebound force from his attacks too, so he can pretty much double whatever hit's he already deals and that thing that would affect his body (like energy manipulation remotely ,etc) will still somehow get reflected during his fight with nephtys

i still think we should remove the AP restriction on his vector reflection as this novel makes clear he only manipulates directions and ignores whatever magnitude as he can't manipulate it directly

 

[DontTalkDT]

@Scrlk: He would get the knowledge in his platinum wings form. The question is if that is sufficient to constitute an upgrade of his intelligence ranking.


Oh, just remembered: We should make a profile for Lilith as well.

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Scrlk: He would get the knowledge in his platinum wings form. The question is if that is sufficient to constitute an upgrade of his intelligence ranking.

Oh, just remembered: We should make a profile for Lilith as well.

Personally I would say yes since the knowledge is installed in him but that is just me.

Speaking of profiles I noticed that there isn't one of Takitbuso.

 

[DontTalkDT]

-snip-

1. The wording is "By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person's flesh and blood."

If it said that the adding of the tree was shaking the galaxy I would see it as figuratively, but it says "and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy", which means that what is described there seems to be a separate action.

To that comes the comparision to a hollowistic esper. In NT 4 it was described as "However, a holistic esper would only notice the flames coming from their palm. Even if some distant galaxy was crushed in the process, that would be all they could comprehend."

That seems to match the phenomenon desribed here quite well.

2. It being beaten by IB without vessel is a point, as I listed in my cons. Though one can also see it as Coronzon just being weaker without a vessel (as we know from Aiwass having a vessel makes this kind of beings more powerful). In any case, with the Gugnir comparision the ranking is probably fine.

3. I don't think she can't destroy the universe without the ceremony. That is made clear when the ceremonies capacity is reduced and she hence predicts that she can only destroy half the universe now and has to destroy the rest later. At that point destroying all layers is already off the table, but she still needs the ceremony to perform even the half-universe destruction.


I don't think we have new evidence regarding a power limit of his vector manipulation, as such I would stay with the "maybe" verdict we currently have.

 

[SchroKatze]

>The attack is comparable to Gungnir

>3-A to Low 2-C only


Excuse me? Gungnir destroyed every single phase, leaving nothing but the black world. Thats High 1-C.

 

[Malox1696]

1 yes but it was compared to angel fall too, that messed up the rules of the world not the world physically, that's why i think this is the same, think of it the opposite of what fiamma did by fixing the elements

2 i remember something about shock waves and her physical body creating a natural phenom so it does not get negated by it "

"Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe him in thy power."

Even if the direct explosion missed, the shockwave alone may have been enough to obliterate a human body

"

3 the ceremony would still destroy half of the last layer, if the planet earth is in that half all the phases born from it get destroyed too as they all originate from there

 

[DontTalkDT]

High 1-C would be only if that included the higher dimensions. Which we don't know, as those aren't really noted to contain anything of relevance yet.

 

[Malox1696]

>The attack is comparable to Gungnir
>3-A to Low 2-C only


Excuse me? Gungnir destroyed every single phase, leaving nothing but the black world. Thats High 1-C.

that's not how MG work they can't destroy the phases she just used the shard of the existing one as a weapon

 

[SchroKatze]

Gungnir destroyed the entirety of the world. High 1-C.

Unless you want to ignore how Othinus was using Gungnir power at first to destroy and recreate reality. And that would be obvious bias and downplay.

 

[Malox1696]

btw the magick flame sword is compared to her cross bow not her lance

 

[SchroKatze]

I give up.

 

[Malox1696]

we should add his ability to kill immortal being now tho

edit: and have guys read the raw of the new accel manga ?

 

[Scrlk666777]

we should add his ability to kill immortal being now tho
edit: and have guys read the raw of the new accel manga ?

Who can kill an immortal?

No, do you know where I can read them?

 

[Malox1696]

Accel can kill MG now or at least remove their immortality

 

[Scrlk666777]

Doesn't this fall into Regenerationn negation? It seems that he can kill or harm immortals who can regenrate as he can stop the Regenerationn itself. I wouldn't say he could remove immortality in general though, just immortals who use Regenerationn to substain immortaility.

 

[KTouma545]

1. The wording is "By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person's flesh and blood."

If it said that the adding of the tree was shaking the galaxy I would see it as figuratively, but it says "and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy", which means that what is described there seems to be a separate action.

To that comes the comparision to a hollowistic esper. In NT 4 it was described as "However, a holistic esper would only notice the flames coming from their palm. Even if some distant galaxy was crushed in the process, that would be all they could comprehend."

That seems to match the phenomenon desribed here quite well.

2. It being beaten by IB without vessel is a point, as I listed in my cons. Though one can also see it as Coronzon just being weaker without a vessel (as we know from Aiwass having a vessel makes this kind of beings more powerful). In any case, with the Gugnir comparision the ranking is probably fine.

3. I don't think she can't destroy the universe without the ceremony. That is made clear when the ceremonies capacity is reduced and she hence predicts that she can only destroy half the universe now and has to destroy the rest later. At that point destroying all layers is already off the table, but she still needs the ceremony to perform even the half-universe destruction.


I don't think we have new evidence regarding a power limit of his vector manipulation, as such I would stay with the "maybe" verdict we currently have.

I completely agree with this! Gg @malox this tree is completely different lol It clearly exaplains how holistic use macro to affec the micro. Normal espers will ignite their hands to set a branch on fire. You are purposely ignoring that "AND THROUGHLY shaking..." my man Aleister is universal to complext multiversal since day one and none said anything. Accelerator in base kicked a nerfed magic god ass, surpassed Aleister knowledge and gained platinun wings (like Aiwass) and new tree and you complain about being Galaxy level lmfao. That's a serious lowball you have there. But again you are comoaring angel fall and claiming it figuratevely. Cant help but laugh

 

[Malox1696]

YEs but power in index was never important, it's all about priority mostly, and even if u want to translate the galaxy shaking feat to AP how do u do it ? He can't add more trees And I'm not low balling as I said I consider messing with the rules a much better feat than "muh AP" and it makes more sense in context

 

[LazyHunter]

Nephthys regenerated a broken leg, having her insides destroyed and Accelerator blowing her torso away, plus she and the narration mention she can survive losing any of her organs including her heart and brain so at least Mid level regen just from that.

We know a very small part of her managed to recreate her body from just her primary organs after WR by using the same trick. In NT17 Touma says it was 10% of her, but in NT14 it's said to be 99% of her from her own viewpoint, which fits better that the only mark left by the event, which Nephthys can't regen because she can't reconnect it to her body, is a scar on her cheek, but doesn't fit the "primary organs were left" part. Although those organs weren't in her body anyway. So High-Mid, maybe?

Her body was destroyed, but she kept moving.

That was the crucial point.

The same had happened during Kamisato Kakeru's domination in the shadows of Academy City. His World Rejecter had definitely hit Nephthys, but it had not completely annihilated her. She had pulled that one off by splitting apart her own body so a portion of it could remain in this world.

She was not built so losing any one of her organs would kill her.

The brown beauty managed herself via percentages.

NT13

Suddenly, the side of the box burst open and a brown leg slipped out.

"Wha-?"

This was clearly insane. The cardboard box was only thirty centimeters on each side, so not even a child would be able to hide inside. How had a beautiful young woman's leg gotten inside?

Nevertheless, the bizarre scene continued.

Next came an arm, then another leg, and finally the whole box was torn to shreds. An entire silver-haired woman with chocolate skin burst out. The color of her eyes did not match and she had a teardrop tattoo below one eye. Also, her shapely body was only covered by white bandages.

He recognized her.

"Neph…thys?"

"Gh…kh. I was right to leave…just my primary organs behind."

NT14

That person was Nephthys, one of the Magic Gods. Her existence itself was hard to believe, but based on what Index had heard, more than 99% of her body had been exiled to another world by Kamisato Kakeru's World Rejecter.

[...]

When Kamisato Kakeru had attacked her with World Rejecter and over 99% of her body had been torn away, she had honestly not wanted to die. She had not wanted to travel down the same unknown path as Niang-Niang. But why not? Was it due to the fear? If so, where did that fear come from? Was it fear of having her existence erased or simply of the pain? But as previously stated, she was a group of servants closed inside the pyramid with the pharaoh. She had been so thoroughly twisted from her very origin that she no longer had it in her to fear simple violence.

[...]

The feeling that had overwhelmed her during Kamisato Kakeru's attack was not here. But that was not because she was taking the logical view that more than 99% of her body had been exiled to another world and thus her "main" consciousness would remain somewhere else even if this tiny portion died.

NT17

"It's Nephthys!! 90% of her was erased in advance and the remaining 10% was remade into Patricia Birdway's body. That Magic God exists in both worlds!!"

 

[Reyzakurrota]

is there any update for base accelerator feat without any wings?

 

[Scrlk666777]

is there any update for base accelerator feat without any wings?

Water manipulation

Energy manipulation

These will probably be added in base I'm guessing.

78 cards. Knowledge of the Qliphoth and the Sephiroth. Knowing beyond Aeons and possible being beyond aeons himself now.

This personally should also be counted in his base form as the knowledge gained shouldn't be forgotten and the 78 cards themselves were installed into him.

Apart from that I think his tier ranking is going to be upgraded to 5B, along with the Nerfed magic Gods.

 

[Reyzakurrota]

Scalling from what, his tier upgraded to 5B tier? And this 5B tier is it applicable to pre headshoot as well or just after nt22

 

[Scrlk666777]

Being able to fight on par with a nerfed magic god and they in turn being able to fight on par with Coronzon. So the nerfed magic gods and Accel from the looks of it will be upgraded to 5B.

That was what was said above anyway.

 

[Reyzakurrota]

Is 5B tier applicable to pre headshot as well or just posy headshoot?