Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 5

[DestinyDude0]

No, I think the issue here is your belief that magical items cause the rejection effect in Espers, which is wrong. That only happens when they refine life force into Mana to cast a spell, but relying upon an external source of magic doesn't affect them.

That's part the reason why Accel made the contract with Qliphah Puzzle, for her to act as a proxy. (Another example would be Himegami Aisa and her Celtic Cross necklace). Mikoto herself is not channeling Aleister's magic, the AAA is.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I never said that so you are kind of putting words into my mouth. Aisa is a Gemstone don't forget she is not a normal Esper so the effects of magic might not harm her as they do artifical Espers.

 

[DestinyDude0]

I never said that so you are kind of putting words into my mouth. Aisa is a Gemstone don't forget she is not a normal Esper so the effects of magic might not harm her as they do artifical Espers.

And Gemstones are literally Espers that gained their powers from natural phenomenon mimicking the Power Curriculum Program. Why on earth would they be any different? Don't insert your headcanon, please.

_________________________

As for Notstn:

Dude, I know Aleister can channel magic through the AAA. That's the entire point of it in the first place. There's no need to edit that quote in. And you said exactly that when you claimed that:

"(as such, it would require the use of some form of recoil dampeners, as, otherwise presumingly Aleister channeling magic through it would flat out kill an Esper using it at the time - since Mikoto has no way to fix her internal wounds or dampen recoil by herself)"

Mikoto would not be wounded. No ifs or buts. The AAA is not physically connected to her body, there is no reason for the rejection to happen. There is no evidence for such anti-recoil tech aside from wishful thinking and fan theories.

 

[Zensum]

But...why? Are Phases not equal? The Black World as seen in NT9 wiped out all the physical matter in the universe. That would be 3-A at the very minimum. There's no reason to 'assume' one Phase is smaller or larger than another one. Should they not be treated as equal unless evidence proves otherwise? Heaven is no more 'special' than Asgard or whatnot.

Nah not all phases are universe in size. Worlds in religious phases like heaven, hell, yomi, Asgard, etc need proof of size. Now that you mention it though IIRC I think there is a quote that says Heaven overlaps with the physical world but I'd have to find it.

 

[DestinyDude0]

But...why? Are Phases not equal? The Black World as seen in NT9 wiped out all the physical matter in the universe. That would be 3-A at the very minimum. There's no reason to 'assume' one Phase is smaller or larger than another one. Should they not be treated as equal unless evidence proves otherwise? Heaven is no more 'special' than Asgard or whatnot.

Nah not all phases are universe in size. Worlds in religious phases like heaven, hell, yomi, Asgard, etc need proof of size. Now that you mention it though IIRC I think there is a quote that says Heaven overlaps with the physical world but I'd have to find it.

I think I also know what you're talking about. It might be in Tsuchimikado's explanation of Heaven/Hell in Angel Fall. It was the analogy comparing them to wavelengths.

 

[Notstn]

I never said that so you are kind of putting words into my mouth. Aisa is a Gemstone don't forget she is not a normal Esper so the effects of magic might not harm her as they do artifical Espers.

Dude, I know Aleister can channel magic through the AAA. That's the entire point of it in the first place. There's no need to edit that quote in.
And Gemstones are literally Espers that gained their powers from natural phenomenon mimicking the Power Curriculum Program. Why on earth would they be any different? Don't insert your headcanon, please.

You said exactly that when you claimed that:

"(as such, it would require the use of some form of recoil dampeners, as, otherwise presumingly Aleister channeling magic through it would flat out kill an Esper using it at the time - since Mikoto has no way to fix her internal wounds or dampen recoil by herself)"

Mikoto would not be wounded. No ifs or buts. The AAA is not physically connected to her body, there is no reason for the rejection to happen. There is no evidence for such anti-recoil tech aside from wishful thinking and fan theories.

I think you think you're talking to the same person, I'm not the person you just replied to. Anyway as I said (emphasis added):

Notstn:

• Either that mechanism somehow avoids the magic affecting the Esper (how?) or it doesn't instead relying on something similar to anti-recoil technology used by Aleister early on.
• Without one of the above, Mikoto would have not survived Aleister directing magic through it or at least would have been extremely heavily injured.

Okay so you can argue there's nothing there to stop recoil if it's the first case. As I said, in simpler terms either it avoided recoil by magic not affecting the Esper at all or it made it less harmful via some kind of recoil dampeners. Big emphasis on "either/or".

It seems you thought you were still arguing with me. I'll sign posts to avoid confusion.

Notst (talk) 22:30, March 29, 2019 (UTC)

 

[DestinyDude0]

Yeah, that was my mistake. I had to leave my laptop to do something, so I was a bit distracted during that time. I'll split my post in two for better clarity.

 

[Notstn]

I never said that so you are kind of putting words into my mouth. Aisa is a Gemstone don't forget she is not a normal Esper so the effects of magic might not harm her as they do artifical Espers.

And Gemstones are literally Espers that gained their powers from natural phenomenon mimicking the Power Curriculum Program. Why on earth would they be any different? Don't insert your headcanon, please.
_________________________

As for Notstn:

Dude, I know Aleister can channel magic through the AAA. That's the entire point of it in the first place. There's no need to edit that quote in. And you said exactly that when you claimed that:

"(as such, it would require the use of some form of recoil dampeners, as, otherwise presumingly Aleister channeling magic through it would flat out kill an Esper using it at the time - since Mikoto has no way to fix her internal wounds or dampen recoil by herself)"

Mikoto would not be wounded. No ifs or buts. The AAA is not physically connected to her body, there is no reason for the rejection to happen. There is no evidence for such anti-recoil tech aside from wishful thinking and fan theories.

Right, well I mean this thread is full of speculation anyway, I wouldn't call it "wishful thinking", it's literally just a theory. Without speculation or theories you may as well leave Accelerator's power as "currently completely undefined, until we get further information" (we don't even know the exact principle behind his strike against the demon) and end the Accelerator related discussions. Since realistically this is sort of where we are at, LN wise, we don't know a lot, if you want to go by pure "facts" alone (or rather concrete statements backed by LNs in one way or another).

I don't see the point in pointing out the obvious, that speculations are speculations, I mean IMO speculation is what makes part of any ongoing story interesting. But if you're so against that, I won't speculate anymore.

Notst (talk) 04:10, March 30, 2019 (UTC)

 

[Scrlk666777]

I never said that so you are kind of putting words into my mouth. Aisa is a Gemstone don't forget she is not a normal Esper so the effects of magic might not harm her as they do artifical Espers.

And Gemstones are literally Espers that gained their powers from natural phenomenon mimicking the Power Curriculum Program. Why on earth would they be any different? Don't insert your headcanon, please

First of all no one is inserting their headcanon and second of Gemstones have shown to be different from Espers in general and no that is not a headcanon. Aisa and Gunha show very abnormal abilities. Rensa couldn't even copy Gunha's powers. Natural Espers also predate magic if we go by Index's explanation of magic back in OT 1. No one knows if Gemstones can be affected by magic like an artificially made Esper can. Saying they can is also you going into headcanon territory because you have no facts to back your statement up. That's why you have a little something called speculation. I'm guessing you have heard of it? The little thing one does when theirs no real facts to back up anything either way.

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Notstn

I hope you don't stop speculating. I have quite liked some of the stuff you have been speculating about.

 

[Malox1696]

1 there is no magic recoil defense for aleister, blasting rod has a low cost cause it comes all from the opponent and same for spiritual tripping, even using normal christian magic creates more recoil than it, has it has actual effect

2 esper and gemstones are similar but different, AC esper are based on gemstones but are not the same

3 AAA has no recoil defense same as aleister, mikoto is getting nosebleed cause she is trying to access the black box of the AAA that is magical

4 all phases should be universal as they are their own universe

 

[DestinyDude0]

First of all no one is inserting their headcanon and second of Gemstones have shown to be different from Espers in general and no that is not a headcanon. Aisa and Gunha show very abnormal abilities. Rensa couldn't even copy Gunha's powers. Natural Espers also predate magic if we go by Index's explanation of magic back in OT 1. No one knows if Gemstones can be affected by magic like an artificially made Esper can. Saying they can is also you going into headcanon territory because you have no facts to back your statement up. That's why you have a little something called speculation. I'm guessing you have heard of it? The little thing one does when theirs no real facts to back up anything either way.

Rensa couldn't copy Gunha's powers because they couldn't understand how they worked. It was never stated that she could never copy his powers period. Gemstones still produce AIM & work off of Personal Realities, they are the same until it's proven not to be. Try again.

 

[Scrlk666777]

Again no one is stated any facts, it's all speculation. You do know what that is? It's something you do when you only have very little information to go on. Gemstones COULD be different. I bolded the word "could" for you just so you know I'm not talking facts here because you seem to think every speculation is us talking as facts.

Stop making out that you have all the facts or know all the facts when you are just as clueless about this stuff as we are because again we have very little to go on. But at least I know I'm speculating and that others are to.

I'm not going to speculating because you don't like it.

 

[DestinyDude0]

Again no one is stated any facts, it's all speculation. You do know what that is? It's something you do when you only have very little information to go on. Gemstones COULD be different. I bolded the word "could" for you just so you know I'm not talking facts here because you seem to think every speculation is us talking as facts.
Stop making out that you have all the facts or know all the facts when you are just as clueless about this stuff as we are because again we have very little to go on. But at least I know I'm speculating and that others are to.

I'm not going to speculating because you don't like it.

Cool beans. I just didn't want the anti-recoil tech to be added as part of Aleister's profile. If you're just speculating out of fun, then by all means have some fun. My apologies lmao XD

 

[Notstn]

Again no one is stated any facts, it's all speculation. You do know what that is? It's something you do when you only have very little information to go on. Gemstones COULD be different. I bolded the word "could" for you just so you know I'm not talking facts here because you seem to think every speculation is us talking as facts.
Stop making out that you have all the facts or know all the facts when you are just as clueless about this stuff as we are because again we have very little to go on. But at least I know I'm speculating and that others are to.

I'm not going to speculating because you don't like it.

Cool beans. I just didn't want the anti-recoil tech to be added as part of Aleister's profile. If you're just speculating out of fun, then by all means have some fun. My apologies lmao XD

I'm not Scrlk666777. You replied to the wrong person again

This is why I said I'll start signing my posts, it seems everyone is getting confused now. I wish these threads made nicknames more noticeable without having to explicitly sign them every time.

Notst (talk) 05:55, March 31, 2019 (UTC)

 

[DestinyDude0]

I'm not Scrlk666777. You replied to the wrong person again
This is why I said I'll start signing my posts, it seems everyone is getting confused now. I wish these threads made nicknames more noticeable without having to explicitly sign them every time.

Notst (talk) 05:55, March 31, 2019 (UTC)

Actually no, I meant to reply to him/her. The Gemstone-Magic argument was linked together with the Anti-recoil tech argument by association, so I just lumped it together, since one grew out of the other anyways. Two birds with one stone.

 

[DestinyDude0]

Can somebody compile a complete list of what the CRT needs to change? Lazy mentioned majority of the content, but with the extra discussion, I'm not sure if opinions have changed or somebody else noticed new info in the meantime.

Considering I've heard that some NT21 edits still haven't been completed, I don't want us to fall behind too much.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I'll be happy to jot down a list and put it here.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I'm not sure what is happening with Coronzon's tier/AP/Dura and whether she will be having an upgrade or not. There seems to be both pros and cons to her possibly being universal or not.

But if it is decided that she is universal that could affect other tier ratings.

 

[DestinyDude0]

I'm not sure what is happening with Coronzon's tier/AP/Dura and whether she will be having an upgrade or not. There seems to be both pros and cons to her possibly being universal or not.
But if it is decided that she is universal that could affect other tier ratings.

I'd argue that she IS universal. While it's true that her attack was being compared to Othinus's crossbow arrows instead of Gungnir, it was referring to the aftermath, not the power level. The event she compared it to was NT9, where Othinus blew Touma's body away. However, Imagine Breaker had nothing to do with that fight, as it was entirely Precognition-based.

Touma DID deflect one of the arrows in NT10, but that instance was where he was succesful. So clearly when the narration says "Othinus once blew his body away" (paraphrase) it means the fight inside the Black World, and thus not comparing the attack potency.

The sheer fact that Flaming_Sword was able to overpower IB is grounds for its universal rating. Every single other instance where IB was unable to fully negate a magical attack was when the power was very weak (Thor's Arc Fusion Blades, PenDex's Dragon's Breath) and Touma was actually able succesfully deflect it.

There are only two incidents where Touma was unable to deflect attacks, and that was with Aiwass (Windowless Building fight scene) and the current volume with Coronzon. And both of them are Ascended beings, who should be on par with full-power Maijins.

I'd also want to throw out a counterargument for those that claim Coronzon's Flaming_Sword was negated by Touma in the finale of Chapter 4. While it might be considered an inconsistency, do remember that Ascended Beings require a physical avatar to stabilize themselves. Therefore, after Accel enacted his forced spiritual-projection on her, Coronozon was severely weakened and vulnerable.

 

[Scrlk666777]

The only question there is if Coronzon is 3-A/Low 2-C tier in general or just with the flaming-sword spell.

I agree that the Flaming-Sword is universal though.

But if Coronzon is given 3-A/Low 2-C tier in general it could possibly mean other characters getting upgrades due to scaling to Coronzon.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I have just put everything I remember down. Somethings might be missing but I tried to be as through as I could be. I hope this helps.

Tier/AP upgrades


5-B/Planetary upgrades for Aleister, Accelerator and the Nerfed Magic Gods. All of them were able to fight on par with Coronzon and/or fight on with someone who scales to Coronzon.

Accelerator

Platinum wing key needs to be added.

Tier key and AP still needs to be decided upon. I'm guessing it will be in the region of 4-B/Solar System, 4-A/Multi-Solar System or 3-C/Galaxy.

Range should be at least Galaxy though. It should also be noted that he can attack anyone anywhere and doesn't seem to need to know their exact location.

Astral Projection and Possibly Soul removal possibly added to Platinum wings abilities.

Upgrades to Post headshot.

Durability possibly upgraded to Universal due to being able to reflect Coronzon's attack.

Range: Possibly Planetary range via spear.

New abilities: Energy and Water Manipulation. Possibly Regenerationn negation.

Water weakness needs to be added.

Possibly the Clonoth being added as equipment. I also think he should get Aleister's mobile as Equipment.

I also think the 78 cards, knowledge of the Qliphoth and the Sephiroth as well him crossing the Abyss should also be added somewhere. Not sure if this would mean an intelligence upgrade or not.

I think that is everything with Accelerator.

Misaki

Category 061 need to be added.

"Mental Out! Use Category 061: Sensory Misidentification. It only has to be temporary, but trick his brain into thinking his right arm exists past the elbow!!"

Category 433: Pain shut off.

"Category 433: Pain Shutoff. I can reduce my body's pain enough to keep moving."

Niang-Niang

Spark magic need to be added.

Nephthys

Boost and water magic need to be added. Regenerationn (Possibly Low to High Mid) also need to be added.

Qliphah

Ice tornado added to abilities.

I'm not sure if something should be added about the Clonoth.

Coronzo

Aethyr Avatars

Flaming-Sword (This should be given a universal feat as it was able to completely destroy IB)

I'm guessing the Aeon stuff will need to be added.

Coronzon's durability would probably need to be discussed as IB is ineffective while she has an avatar but is vulernable without the Avatar.

I'm probably missing a few thing with Coronzon as I can't remember everything at the top of my head.

Aleister

Should healing magic be added to his abilities? I also think that him being able to control the AAA probably should be mentioned as well as him gaining knowledge from the Abyss.

Again I might need some help with Aleister since I'm sure I'm missing some stuff.

I will look over the Novel later.

I think that is it. Please let me know if I have missed anything out.

 

[DestinyDude0]

The only question there is if Coronzon is 3-A/Low 2-C tier in general or just with the flaming-sword spell.
I agree that the Flaming-Sword is universal though.

But if Coronzon is given 3-A/Low 2-C tier in general it could possibly mean other characters getting upgrades due to scaling to Coronzon.

I wouldn't say that, since Coronzon only has a single universal attack, all her other attacks are weaker. For example, the Aethyr Avatars. If other characters haven't shown the ability to withstand Flaming_Sword, then it wouldn't be scaled. Niang-Niang was able to go toe to toe with Coronzon, but considering it was entirely off-screen, we can assume it was because of her godly regneration that enabled such a feat, rather than raw durability.

I'll check your CRT list later, I'm busy right now. Thank you though.

EDIT: Category 061 is the one she used to trick the IT into thinking Touma's right hand still existed, right? I guess that would be Perception manipulation.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I think 061 was that one. I need to look it up She actually has two categories. I added the second one.

Edit. 061 is this: "Mental Out! Use Category 061: Sensory Misidentification. It only has to be temporary, but trick his brain into thinking his right arm exists past the elbow!!"

 

[DestinyDude0]

Alright, just posted the CRT. We need to figure out exactly what tier Platinum-wing Accel is.

Is he Solar System, Multi-stellar, or Galaxy? That's for the physical action of "shaking" the galaxy.

In terms of metaphysical and conceptual manipulation, that's probably universal.

 

[Scrlk666777]

I'll check out the CRT in a bit but thanks for doing it!

I'm not sure on the AP tier feat for his platinum wings. I think calcs will be needed for that. It will probably most likely be 4-B or 4-A but I'm not too sure.

That's a good point. I never thought of that.

 

[Shiroyama_Kyousuke]

So have any of you disscsuss the feats of the Tobio twin sisters from Accelerator spin off manga just looking over their feat and their definetly highest shown feats for espers below level 5 not even the top end feats from level 4 espers can compared

 

[Malox1696]

im quite sure awaki telporting a building is better, then there is umidori

 

[Notstn]

I'd say that "Remote Vector Control" part which quotes OT19 needs to be moved up to Air Control/Aerokinesis, the OT19 feats were not "Remote Vector Control", and yes he is capable of it, but attributing that to OT19 is incorrect (if you only watched the anime, the Kakine scene was, unlike in LNs, actual display of Remote Vector Control, in LNs Kakine just got whacked with a black wing).

With base Accelerator, Aerokinesis is pretty much his to-go ability for most things (Flight, powerful wind-based attacks, very rapid changes in air pressure mimicking telekinesis (direct blast from highly compressed air is comparable to at the very least comparable to getting hit with an axe), atmospheric based attacks have a large range). The quoted OT19 hostages scene got very little screentime in the anime but it showed Aerokinesis in line with that potential. On the other hand OT22 was one of the notable feats of actual Remote Vector Control in LNs, a lot of things are however are misattributed to that particular ability.

I can't remember where exactly but he himself stated that the "atmosphere was (his) weapon".

Notst (talk) 11:56, April 8, 2019 (UTC)

 

[Accelerate420]

I'd say that "Remote Vector Control" part which quotes OT19 needs to be moved up to Air Control/Aerokinesis, the OT19 feats were not "Remote Vector Control", and yes he is capable of it, but attributing that to OT19 is incorrect (if you only watched the anime, the Kakine scene was, unlike in LNs, actual display of Remote Vector Control, in LNs Kakine just got whacked with a black wing).
With base Accelerator, Aerokinesis is pretty much his to-go ability for most things (Flight, powerful wind-based attacks, very rapid changes in air pressure mimicking telekinesis (direct blast from highly compressed air is comparable to at the very least comparable to getting hit with an axe), atmospheric based attacks have a large range). The quoted OT19 hostages scene got very little screentime in the anime but it showed Aerokinesis in line with that potential. On the other hand OT22 was one of the notable feats of actual Remote Vector Control in LNs, a lot of things are however are misattributed to that particular ability.

I can't remember where exactly but he himself stated that the "atmosphere was (his) weapon".

Notst (talk) 11:56, April 8, 2019 (UTC)

In the LN Accelerator didn't whack Kakine with any wings. He was forced down onto the ground by the flick of his hand which was remote control vectors, after that he proceeded to meat-pound him with his fists in the LN. Kakine didn't get wing-wacked until NT7.

 

[Malox1696]

I'd say that "Remote Vector Control" part which quotes OT19 needs to be moved up to Air Control/Aerokinesis, the OT19 feats were not "Remote Vector Control", and yes he is capable of it, but attributing that to OT19 is incorrect (if you only watched the anime, the Kakine scene was, unlike in LNs, actual display of Remote Vector Control, in LNs Kakine just got whacked with a black wing).
With base Accelerator, Aerokinesis is pretty much his to-go ability for most things (Flight, powerful wind-based attacks, very rapid changes in air pressure mimicking telekinesis (direct blast from highly compressed air is comparable to at the very least comparable to getting hit with an axe), atmospheric based attacks have a large range). The quoted OT19 hostages scene got very little screentime in the anime but it showed Aerokinesis in line with that potential. On the other hand OT22 was one of the notable feats of actual Remote Vector Control in LNs, a lot of things are however are misattributed to that particular ability.

I can't remember where exactly but he himself stated that the "atmosphere was (his) weapon".

Notst (talk) 11:56, April 8, 2019 (UTC)

i said again look at accel manga he does it there too

 

[Notstn]

I'd say that "Remote Vector Control" part which quotes OT19 needs to be moved up to Air Control/Aerokinesis, the OT19 feats were not "Remote Vector Control", and yes he is capable of it, but attributing that to OT19 is incorrect (if you only watched the anime, the Kakine scene was, unlike in LNs, actual display of Remote Vector Control, in LNs Kakine just got whacked with a black wing).
With base Accelerator, Aerokinesis is pretty much his to-go ability for most things (Flight, powerful wind-based attacks, very rapid changes in air pressure mimicking telekinesis (direct blast from highly compressed air is comparable to at the very least comparable to getting hit with an axe), atmospheric based attacks have a large range). The quoted OT19 hostages scene got very little screentime in the anime but it showed Aerokinesis in line with that potential. On the other hand OT22 was one of the notable feats of actual Remote Vector Control in LNs, a lot of things are however are misattributed to that particular ability.

I can't remember where exactly but he himself stated that the "atmosphere was (his) weapon".

Notst (talk) 11:56, April 8, 2019 (UTC)

In the LN Accelerator didn't whack Kakine with any wings. He was forced down onto the ground by the flick of his hand which was remote control vectors, after that he proceeded to meat-pound him with his fists in the LN. Kakine didn't get wing-wacked until NT7.

Oh yeah you're right, I must have forgotten or misread something - anime was actually more or less in line with LN. That's still him in angelic form however, that's very different from base Accelerator. That adds one more feat of him using Remote Vector Control (Gravity?) in angelic form. That doesn't make everything else I said invalid. Though it's probably a good feat to put under Remote Vector Control as opposed to what happened in OT19 without angelic forms and just Aerokinesis. And yes I agree, the OT15 fight you're describing was definitely "Remote Vector Control". It's not something he does often however, that's my main point.

OT15 Ch4:

An attack made of Dark Matter came suddenly, and cut off Accelerator's thought. The target wasn't him.
Yomikawa opened her eyes wide in shock. She slowly looked down. The white wing made of unknown materials had stabbed through the side of her stomach like a knife.

-snip-

He no longer saw Accelerator as a threat, but only a thing to test his new powers on. "Wha…?!"
He completely didn't understand what just happened.
Splat.
Kakine Teitoku's body was pressed into the asphalt by a great power.
He completely didn't understand what just happened. Accelerator's wings didn't move at all. He only stared at Kakine and slightly moved his hands. With just that, he defeated Kakine who had absolute power and ground him deep into the ground.

Notst (talk) 17:18, April 8, 2019 (UTC)

 

[Accelerate420]

I'd say that "Remote Vector Control" part which quotes OT19 needs to be moved up to Air Control/Aerokinesis, the OT19 feats were not "Remote Vector Control", and yes he is capable of it, but attributing that to OT19 is incorrect (if you only watched the anime, the Kakine scene was, unlike in LNs, actual display of Remote Vector Control, in LNs Kakine just got whacked with a black wing).
With base Accelerator, Aerokinesis is pretty much his to-go ability for most things (Flight, powerful wind-based attacks, very rapid changes in air pressure mimicking telekinesis (direct blast from highly compressed air is comparable to at the very least comparable to getting hit with an axe), atmospheric based attacks have a large range). The quoted OT19 hostages scene got very little screentime in the anime but it showed Aerokinesis in line with that potential. On the other hand OT22 was one of the notable feats of actual Remote Vector Control in LNs, a lot of things are however are misattributed to that particular ability.

I can't remember where exactly but he himself stated that the "atmosphere was (his) weapon".

Notst (talk) 11:56, April 8, 2019 (UTC)

In the LN Accelerator didn't whack Kakine with any wings. He was forced down onto the ground by the flick of his hand which was remote control vectors, after that he proceeded to meat-pound him with his fists in the LN. Kakine didn't get wing-wacked until NT7.

Oh yeah you're right, I must have forgotten or misread something - anime was actually more or less in line with LN. That's still him in angelic form however, that's very different from base Accelerator. That adds one more feat of him using Remote Vector Control (Gravity?) in angelic form. That doesn't make everything else I said invalid. Though it's probably a good feat to put under Remote Vector Control as opposed to what happened in OT19 without angelic forms and just Aerokinesis. And yes I agree, the OT15 fight you're describing was definitely "Remote Vector Control". It's not something he does often however, that's my main point.

In fairness, there's nothing really stopping Accel from not doing it either. Accel's entire ability is based around knowledge and if he learns how to do something, it shouldn't disappear just because his wings aren't there. He can probably still do it, but if he just kept spamming remote vectors the story wouldn't really get much anywhere as he would've killed Hamazura right off the bat in NT22 and the Neph fight would've had a lot less tension. It's basically plot-restricted but for the sake of argument I guess it's 'only there' in his wings forms I guess.

 

[Accelerate420]

To add to it, I'm not sure why Accelerator doesn't have gravity manipulation on his profile when it's stated in the LN's that he has to 'consciously allow gravity to take hold of him' implying that he can reverse, manipulate, and reflect the direction of grabity too if he really wanted too. He even displays various moments of ignoring gravity entirely when standing on the side of buildings and the like.

 

[Omimi]

so IB cant affect high 1-C

https://www.reddit.com/r/toarumajut...athread_toaru_majutsu_no_index_new_testament/

IT has taken over Touma's whole body and isn't just contained in his right arm and held back by IB anymore, and from the second epilogue, it seems to act out uncontrollably now.

someone even said he lost IB

is this true ?

 

[Malox1696]

@omimi

half-and-half true, the "lock" is broken It had grown too much to contain

@notstn as i said read the manga, i konow it's bad, he shows his remote control before launching the thelema bomb out of orbit

 

[Scrlk666777]

In fairness, there's nothing really stopping Accel from not doing it either. Accel's entire ability is based around knowledge and if he learns how to do something, it shouldn't disappear just because his wings aren't there. He can probably still do it, but if he just kept spamming remote vectors the story wouldn't really get much anywhere as he would've killed Hamazura right off the bat in NT22 and the Neph fight would've had a lot less tension. It's basically plot-restricted but for the sake of argument I guess it's 'only there' in his wings forms I guess.

Yeah, Kamachi likes to find ways to make things more interesting. The power ups he received in NT 22 should be permanent though as unlike the wings which have always been temporary power ups when his back was against the wall, these are different. The Clonoth isn't going away and he has, not only full access but control over the Clonoth as well. He has knowledge from beyond the Abyss and it was even stated he surpassed Aleister although only briefly. He has the 78 tarot cards implanted in him by Qliphah and also Qliphah herself.

Accel has completely stepped up his magic game.

That said this is Kamachi. He very much like the warp effect. It would not surprise me if Accel defeat Aiwass at full power but yet loses to Hamazura. The latter has never happened but I still wouldn't put it past Kamachi.

 

[Malox1696]

accel is still not aleister lvl tho, aleister can make scientific super weapon on the fly and created the 2 system currently used by both sides (esper and modern magic)

accel has the potential but u can think for now similar to him having Wikipedia for magic and science side (545 for magic and the phone which he has to acces for the missing science side)

 

[Scrlk666777]

@Malox

He surpassed Aleister in crossing the Abyss which Aleister did in the end himself but at that point and in that regard Accel surpassed Aleister.

It's why the Aleister bit was only added on after the Abyss part and not after the whole thing. I should have made it clear that this was also briefly though. But I just fixed that.

 

[Schnee_One]

Pretty sure Aleister still destroys Accelerator, especially since Accel doesn't underestimate his opponents