Toaru Majutsu no Index Discussion Thread 5

[SchroKatze]

 

[DontTalkDT]

Personally I would appreciate if we could keep this thread spoiler free until the volume is completly translated and maybe 1 day after as well to give people time to finish reading.

 

[SchroKatze]

Just saying that we will know the truth about a certain AIM being, a new chairman and etc.

 

[Malox1696]

and the translations are out accel reflect coronzon attacks, should we remove the magnitude restriction now ?

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

From what I have seen nobody really listens to the magnitude restriction anyway. People boi ust use the other (correct) interpretation.

 

[Reyzakurrota]

Interesting fact from new nt translation that accel reflection can work against water absorbtion. But still dont understand why nephytys can kick through accel reflection even she damaged herself. Is it because she is magic god so her body is abnormal?

 

[Ellydesperado]

Where do you read NT22 translated?

 

[Accelerate420]

It seems that Neph is able to 'get through' his reflection due to the fact that her body is abnormal and pure essence itself. So his vector field may not be able to register it properly. The intial reflection happens but it seemed the force wasn't distributed properly as it bent rather than went straight back into her. Either way it doesn't seem like it matters /too/ much because the initial reflection still happens, so it's not really a big deal. TL;DR it seems to be a case of 'her body is literally abnormal magic'.

 

[Reyzakurrota]

In baka tsuki but still not fully translated

 

[SchroKatze]

Just saying that Accel will definitely get an upgrade.

 

[Ellydesperado]

I might missing something but what the 78 cards gonna do? I think accelerator vsbattles profile needs a huge revision and upgrade after this.

 

[Accelerate420]

Well I can't go into detail without spoiling that much but from the power-up alone it makes Accel jump up from low-high to easily low-top tier IMO. Depending on if the other spoilers are true he might even be higher. It'll be fun seeing the revisions for sure.

 

[Everything12]

Well this part seems interesting:

" An explosive noise burst out.

But it was not the sound of the violent gale Accelerator had been trying to unleash.

This was less distinct.

It was an invisible power that covered every part of the world.

His vector control ability twisted it into a vortex that rushed toward Nephthys like a giant spear.

"Tch!!"

The brown goddess had preserved her beauty even as her torso was blown away, but she finally clicked her tongue and pushed Accelerator off of her. This slightly diverted the spear's trajectory so it only sliced off a tuft of her long silver hair.

Something was different from before.

The separated hair did not reconnect and it simply rotted away. "

 

[Accelerate420]

( Spoilers I guess then?)


Accelerator has knowledge beyond aeons now, so any being inside the aeons/made up of magic from them is now more or less able to be perma-gibbed. So Nephthys dumb Regenerationn thing is more or less useless, due to her being: A: A being from ISIS, and B: Made up of ISIS Magic. The 'invisible power' is likely AIM from the misaka network or something along those lines. She does say 'we're always with him'. Either way what we can take from that is Accelerator is essentionally on the same level as Coronzon as in: standing outside the toolbox where magic no longer effects him most likely. How this can contribute to vsbattles is yet to be determined but in-verse this makes him practically a science-Fiamma. More or less it's durability negation of some sort mixed with similar insta-killing mechanics similar to AAA vs magic.

 

[SchroKatze]

Accelerator doesn't need math/calculations anymore, and 545 called him a "transcendent being that has the power over the nameless third three"... Maybe thats literally what Level 6 was meant to be? Since he can now lolnope magic and science, making him the perfect "anti-magic weapon".

 

[Accelerate420]

Accelerator and transcendent being being used together is funny to me, but from spoilers this isn't the end of his power-ups so we'll likely get more context there. I feel like he does reach Level 6 in this volume, or at least is 5.5 the way.

 

[SchroKatze]

iirc, he will get new wings too.

 

[SchroKatze]

"Thus, I can become the manager seated in the unmarked 11th sphere!! My name is Qliphah Puzzle 545, my number is the true 11, and its meaning is 'the stepping stone of wickedness that supports good deeds'! The path of 78 cards is found here. I provide power to my contractual master, the transcendent lifeform who controls the entirety of the still nameless third three. I offer the path of survival to that being! I offer him the wisdom found beyond the Abyss!!!!!"

 

[Accelerate420]

Yup, this means he effectively has surpassed Crowley in knowledge outside of Aeons. I'm surprise Kamachi is making him so OP, he's jumping an entire damn tier with the stuff that's happening now.

 

[Ellydesperado]

That's crazy! Wouldn't all this knowledge about magic makes him magic God level? I can see his shift to 6... He will get new wings too?

 

[Accelerate420]

Realistically the way it's looking, he's gonna be at the apex just under Full Power Magic Gods. Until we learn what the wings do at least. Even then it's hinted at that he'll gain power beyond it too since the Magic Gods are people who 'stopped half-way up the mountain' and Accel intends to climb it and beyond.

 

[KTouma545]

Realistically the way it's looking, he's gonna be at the apex just under Full Power Magic Gods. Until we learn what the wings do at least. Even then it's hinted at that he'll gain power beyond it too since the Magic Gods are people who 'stopped half-way up the mountain' and Accel intends to climb it and beyond.

So you are saying he's gonna destroy universes just by moving? Lol what? Full power magic gods are all at least high multiversal and such is their destructive powers. What type of wings does he get? What was the third tree already?

 

[KTouma545]

This is interesting for Accel vsbattles upgrade. Galaxy level? Also he now has new wings and this invisible third tree which I wait more clear infos about"Are you trying to apply a powerful external pressure to remove my soul from this temporary body!?"

The microcosm of the body and the macrocosm of the planet were linked.

When something happened to one, it affected the other.

That theory was usually applied to use the micro as a way of moving the macro. To put it extremely simply, refining magic power in the body and moving the arms or legs would distort the larger physical world and produce flames or ice from the hand.

But this monster was different.

He used the macro as a way of moving the micro.

By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person's flesh and blood.

All to force an astral projection initiated by an external third party.

 

[Notstn]

In short it seems Accelerator seems to have acquired something similar to what was speculated to be Level 6 throughout all of the LNs. That's been said to be on a level similar or slightly above a Magic God (Toaru magic is weird, since at least real world is essentially many phases overlaid onto each other with Magic Gods being able to actually control/apply/destroy entire phases (on a universal level)), Othinus arc being a good example of Magic God's true power.

Magic Gods. Norse Gods, Level 6 Espers (I guess Accelerator would be classified as such, it seems he had some sort of epiphany to a point of understanding of how everything works, with aid of the third new "tree" constructed by combined effort of Misaka network giving him the processing power needed to fully understand it all with Puzzle's explanations suddenly making sense) are immensely powerful but are not true deities as such and can be very much mortal under right conditions (Aleister, at his peak being able to overpower Magic Gods, and severely weaken them, as well as breaching their hidden world. Due to Aeon of Horus and the idea of true free will, Aleister would have to remain human to surpas Magic Gods as the principle only applies to humans or Thelemic entities). Level 6 Espers originating in Aeon of Horus would be along the lines of Thelemic Gods, with Accelerator's "attack" (he just said that being the strongest gets boring and then struck the demon down with a universal (?) level attack, seemingly with just a thought) being universal in nature actually splitting the demon from its physical body. Accelerator also seemed to posses enough power to kill off a weakened (by Aleister's spell) Magic God even before his epiphany (it was more of a draw, Accelerator had the upper hand most of the fight, would give him a win but recoil from an Esper using old magic did injure him pretty badly, not that it mattered for long).

Regarding his "new wings", they seemed to resemble the wings of avatar of Aiwass, possibly symbolizing them turning Thelemic in nature (I guess his white wings were Telesma although it's never been confirmed, and black wings being Telesma-like according to Index and definitely not Thelemic as Aiwass referred to them as from Aeon of Osiris).

That said, while they (individuals ascended to some form of "godhood") may be able to put up a fight or even "beat" actual deities (Aiwass and Coronzon being fairly obvious examples), deities are still way beyond their league at full power. They possess a different sort of immortality and while they also may possess an avatar, at least for Aiwass, it fundamentally exists outside of phases with it being unscathed by Othinus' universal schenanigans. Aiwass is also capable of destroying phases but appears to have very little interest in doing so (or doing anything for that matter, it didn't actually play a huge role in LNs aside from passive observations and very light interferences in things it found to be amusing, almost cutting Accelerator in half was the avatar's self defense mechanism so I suppose yes despite its gruesome nature it was an "accident").

Also Accelerator can summon Puzzle (or she can just appear), who aside from being somewhat useful in battle, more importantly helped bridge the gap in Accelerator's lack of knowledge of magic. It seems that it doesn't matter anymore, however, even though she makes parts of her body from random trash laying around and is not generally super appealing, she's the first actual companion Accelerator had who wasn't someone he was trying to protect or wasn't siding with due to having a common enemy, which is kind of sweet, even if she's kind of gross Accelerator always seemed super lonely (I mean he's often referred to as a monster due to his immense power and ruthlessness in combat, even though he's just a really traumatized person trying to redeem himself, his long redemption path, in fact, is what made him the second main character).

Regarding a Level 6 Esper vs Magic God, it seems Thelemic abilities/Magick massively surpasses old magic, given that one of the core traits attributed to Level 6 is "understanding everything", and given that Aleister (at his peak) gave them a hard time, a Level 6 Esper who is essentially akin to a Thelemic Angel/God (Toauru universe is pretty polytheistic) would easily resist or cancel out magical attacks due to personal realities/AIM fields themselves being "phases" - anyone of that caliber is unlikely to be affected by old magic. Meanwhile Magic Gods have considerable weaknesses, Aleister being able to make use of magick of the new Aeon to kill and severely weaken certain Magic Gods despite being human (and yes, he did get considerably injured). Given that a Level 6 is supposed to have knowledge far beyond Aleister's, it seems it's a very clear win for a Level 6 (well let's not forget that Accelerator almost killed a weakened Magic God without making use of angelic states and with Puzzle being somewhat unhelpful during those encounters).

 

[KTouma545]

Thank you Notstn.

What I don't understand is this new tree.. 545 installed the 78 cards in Accel giving him knowledge beyond the aeons right? (I'm quoting people above) also he now has the aid of this tree with grants him an understanding about "everything". Could you define everything?

So making a quick recap of his upgrades: 78 cards, new wings (they have to show feats, but comparable to Aiwass), knowledge to nullify aeons Magick or beings created by aeons, galaxy level attacks, 545 knowledge in magic.. Its a lot but to rival a full power magic God? Hmmm 100% Othinus would smack him up around. Or I missed something?

 

[Accelerate420]

Realistically the way it's looking, he's gonna be at the apex just under Full Power Magic Gods. Until we learn what the wings do at least. Even then it's hinted at that he'll gain power beyond it too since the Magic Gods are people who 'stopped half-way up the mountain' and Accel intends to climb it and beyond.

So you are saying he's gonna destroy universes just by moving? Lol what? Full power magic gods are all at least high multiversal and such is their destructive powers. What type of wings does he get? What was the third tree already?

Who knows? Accelerator's main character gimmick is he attains power the more bullshit encounters he runs into. Maybe he'll eventually reach that high.

 

[Accelerate420]

Thank you Notstn.
What I don't understand is this new tree.. 545 installed the 78 cards in Accel giving him knowledge beyond the aeons right? (I'm quoting people above) also he now has the aid of this tree with grants him an understanding about "everything". Could you define everything?

So making a quick recap of his upgrades: 78 cards, new wings (they have to show feats, but comparable to Aiwass), knowledge to nullify aeons Magick or beings created by aeons, galaxy level attacks, 545 knowledge in magic.. Its a lot but to rival a full power magic God? Hmmm 100% Othinus would smack him up around. Or I missed something?

Theoryetically speaking, at the moment, MG's should win in pure output but when it comes to their more conceptual abilities and the like Accelerator may be able to take the win if he's able to enforce his own laws on the world to the ends of the galaxy and more. It's likely even phase creation could be something he could work against. He may not be able to blow up a universe as far as I know/create one, but he could counter MG's who try. It's a very rock-paper-scissors way of looking at it where the MG's have only rock to play and that's -blow up the multiverse by moving-.

 

[Notstn]

Thank you Notstn.
What I don't understand is this new tree.. 545 installed the 78 cards in Accel giving him knowledge beyond the aeons right? (I'm quoting people above) also he now has the aid of this tree with grants him an understanding about "everything". Could you define everything?

So making a quick recap of his upgrades: 78 cards, new wings (they have to show feats, but comparable to Aiwass), knowledge to nullify aeons Magick or beings created by aeons, galaxy level attacks, 545 knowledge in magic.. Its a lot but to rival a full power magic God? Hmmm 100% Othinus would smack him up around. Or I missed something?

Theoryetically speaking, at the moment, MG's should win in pure output but when it comes to their more conceptual abilities and the like Accelerator may be able to take the win if he's able to enforce his own laws on the world to the ends of the galaxy and more. It's likely even phase creation could be something he could work against. He may not be able to blow up a universe as far as I know/create one, but he could counter MG's who try. It's a very rock-paper-scissors way of looking at it where the MG's have only rock to play and that's -blow up the multiverse by moving-.

I believe Thelemic "true free will" can be used to erase the notion of MGs without requiring any sort of rituals, magical items or spells. To add to how broken that is, "Level 6" implies pretty much near omniscience, which would include all known weaknesses and plans of MGs. Aeon of Osiris "old magic" still heavily relies on such even for beings like Othinus; It's comparable in destructive power, catch is, MGs are still casters, artifact and mana users. Aeon of Horus concept of "true free will" does not require such. It's basically a result of a flawed and incomplete idea of an artificial heaven for every human, reality being, only Accelerator seems to have (?) reached that and that's pretty much at the end of LNs after a massive redemption story (He's a well written and developed character, his story especially as one of the main characters being my favourite).

I'm not sure about "Level 6 Espers" who are more like Thelemic Gods, but regular Espers do not create phases per se, rather they possess a personal reality (imperfect concept of what I mentioned earlier) which is exactly what it sounds like. Esper abilities stem from being able to both control said personal reality to some degree and applying it (with limited success for most Espers) to existing reality. In essence every Esper including Level 0s have such trait, as such unlike magicians every Esper exists in a phase of their own, although for most inability to apply that outwards causes them to lack any notable abilities. Obviously there's some power scaling as a MG can easily shatter a personal reality of a level 4 or 5. Level 6 however is an exponential jump from 5 however, it also does not seem to be obtainable through anything devised in AC (Mikoto's shift attempt by Kiharas would have likely killed her before she reached that, not to mention that even at 5.3 she was miles away from 6 - the gap is really that massive, with her attack on the windowless building doing no damage showing that).

Theoretically a personal reality of a Level 6 is something vastly different and is unlikely to be susceptible to being shattered or breached by magician of any sort (even if otherwise matched in power), though this is just my guess, so take it with a grain of salt. MGs, unlike Aleister, also lack the knowledge about Aeon of Horus and Thelemic phenomenon, it being a "modern" idea centered around humans (Magic Gods would have given up their humanity, in fact Aleister actually went out of his way to avoid becoming a MG himself, not just because of his hate for MGs but because he would lose his humanity).

 

[Accelerate420]

Damn. AFter this novel is over, Accelerator's gonna get some MASSIVE buffs and revisions if I'm interpreting what he did to Coronzon right too. The fact of what his current height can do too is very interesting, as most fictions have their foot in christianity or Aeons in general as well. Only difficulty I'd see is if it comes to applying that to fantasies, but even most fantasies have stuff along the lines of Aeons in terms of how the world operates.

 

[KTouma545]

So basing on what you guys explaining Accel should get a terrific vsbattles upgrade: -Tier 3C (galaxy level) -Power nullification (having gained knowledge beyond aeons) -new wings (still without feats) -nigh omniscience (?) -qlihpah 545 and third tree aid

What do you think?

 

[Accelerate420]

The galaxy level upgrade seems to be a byproduct of the wings IMO but it could be seen differently. 3C is definitely a given though as well as power nullification and maybe even some form of regen negation since Nephthys couldn't regen and I doubt any other Magic Gods could either from him.

 

[Notstn]

So basing on what you guys explaining Accel should get a terrific vsbattles upgrade:
-Tier 3C (galaxy level) -Power nullification (having gained knowledge beyond aeons) -new wings (still without feats) -nigh omniscience (?) -qlihpah 545 and third tree aid

What do you think?

That specific state (specifically when his new wings came out) that would be a glimpse of true powers of Aeon of Horus. I'll note that he could not kill a deity, but he did manage to split the demon from its physical body, something Aleister (albeit depowered) was unable to do, meeting a seemingly impossible precondition to killing the otherwise immortal demon (a demonic deity is still a deity). He seems to have used a pretty much universal attack to do so without casting or anything alike (only taunting the demon once before unleashing it), that's "true free will" for you.

His wings are likely purely symbolic (I think I said in the previous post, him gaining those wings was more of a sign of transition to a Thelemic being). Kamachi's stuff is heavily inspired by IRL Crowley's works which are pretty weird and occult based, with a lot of parallels, so some guesses can be made from drawing parallels between the two.

Accelerator's fight with Nephthys was before his "ascension", he also got hurt pretty badly (recoil from attempting to use magic). Though it didn't kill him and the middle finger scene was pretty funny despite him being badly injured (his injuries wouldn't matter shortly after anyway).

(I'll note that deities like Aiwass at full strength are beyond realm of MGs or Level 6, Aiwass supposedly being able to anihilate MGs in an instant if it felt like it. Aleister's failure was in thinking he could use summon Aiwass and use it, Aiwass didn't share the sentiment. Even weakened deities possess a completely different tier of immortality with very specific conditions required to be met to kill such a deity. Going back to Egyptian Mythodology which Kamachi's stuff is also based on, Osiris was killed by his brother Set (there was actually a throwback to Osiris' death in NT22), meeting very specific and unique preconditions by another extremely powerful deity)

 

[Ellydesperado]

Damn. AFter this novel is over, Accelerator's gonna get some MASSIVE buffs and revisions if I'm interpreting what he did to Coronzon right too. The fact of what his current height can do too is very interesting, as most fictions have their foot in christianity or Aeons in general as well. Only difficulty I'd see is if it comes to applying that to fantasies, but even most fantasies have stuff along the lines of Aeons in terms of how the world operates.

Most of anime can be fit into Aeons. Most of Fairy tail evil characters for example believed in Zeref as savior.. Sounds like Aeon of Isis.. Fairy tail guild believed in self realization, despite not being Christians. Sounds like accelerator case and he was put into Aeon of Horus... Black Clover has Christianity in it etc... Everu fantasy anime with a religion can be fit into aeons or seems like that.

 

[KTouma545]

That specific state (specifically when his new wings came out) that would be a glimpse of true powers of Aeon of Horus. I'll note that he could not kill a deity, but he did manage to split the demon from its physical body, something Aleister (albeit depowered) was unable to do, meeting a seemingly impossible precondition to killing the otherwise immortal demon (a demonic deity is still a deity). He seems to have used a pretty much universal attack to do so without casting or anything alike (only taunting the demon once before unleashing it), that's "true free will" for you.

He "only shook" the galaxy, how he became universal now? Lol That's just wank.. He didn't destroy the phase, maybe he can but let's see.. Also aeons are applicable to every fiction lol accel can nullify basically almost any magic in the series lol. Almost everyone in toaru belongs to an aeon. So he has knowledge to nullify those magics even in deathbattles

 

[Accelerate420]

Well if the Tree itself is being applied to the 'phase' it's not a far-cry to assume it's a universal range feat. Maybe it only shook the galaxy but applying a new Tree to the world would count as effecting the entire phase itself. So it could be either 3C or "possibly" universe level. I'll go for the low-ball and for the direct translation for 3C but the possibility is there,

 

[Accelerate420]

"By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person's flesh and blood" 'the world' is generally the term for 'universe' and 'phase' in Index. Kamachi has examples of separating the 'planet' from the 'world' various times so it's not a far-cry from possible universal level. It even says 'to the ends of the galaxy' which can be interpreted as going further or just a bit more. I'm not saying it's 100% universal but the logic is there.

 

[Notstn]

Damn. AFter this novel is over, Accelerator's gonna get some MASSIVE buffs and revisions if I'm interpreting what he did to Coronzon right too. The fact of what his current height can do too is very interesting, as most fictions have their foot in christianity or Aeons in general as well. Only difficulty I'd see is if it comes to applying that to fantasies, but even most fantasies have stuff along the lines of Aeons in terms of how the world operates.

Most of anime can be fit into Aeons. Most of Fairy tail evil characters for example believed in Zeref as savior.. Sounds like Aeon of Isis.. Fairy tail guild believed in self realization, despite not being Christians. Sounds like accelerator case and he was put into Aeon of Osiris... Black Clover has Christianity in it etc... Everu fantasy anime with a religion can be fit into aeons or seems like that.

I think pre-NT21 Accelerator is still a good "baseline" as far as comparing power (especially relative to other LNs/Manga/Anime). End of NT22 Accelerator is extremely hard to scale, assuming he keeps "true free will", aside from beings that exist outside of phases (deities), well, he's just another super broken character (though unlike most, I doubt he's going to do a lot with that power, a lot of his development also came from learning restraint in using power), the guy literally just wants something like a family (Aiho, LO, Worst, Puzzle (?!)), something he seemed to have lost out on as a child. I mean for a long time he considered himself useless "good for nothing villian", and on several occassions was pretty much prepared to die for his newfound "family". Ironically compared to him at the very start, where he pretty much had a god complex, current Accelerator will likely turn out "fine" even if he has such power, he does share some traits with Aiwass namely not interfering with most things aside from protecting his new family. I'm hoping for a GROUP reunion too, though unlikely, it would be pretty heartwarming too.

 

[Accelerate420]

To add to it, I think Accelerator is fully capable of killing 'dieties' so long as they belong to the Aeons. Coronzon he probably could not reliably kill because they're on the same stage and the fact that she doesn't belong to aeons. So beings with Regenerationn bullshit that belong to an aeon should be fair game, because Neph's hair rotted away entirely and never came back, as well as needing to actually evade that attack entirely or else she probably would've lost her entire head.

 

[KTouma545]

"By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person's flesh and blood" 'the world' is generally the term for 'universe' and 'phase' in Index. Kamachi has examples of separating the 'planet' from the 'world' various times so it's not a far-cry from possible universal level. It even says 'to the ends of the galaxy' which can be interpreted as going further or just a bit more. I'm not saying it's 100% universal but the logic is there.

Lol if he reached the galaxy he didn't reach the universe lol you're saying the galaxy is as big as universe? He added the tree to the cosmos

 

[Accelerate420]

"By adding a large tree to the cosmos and thoroughly shaking the world out to the ends of the galaxy, he was applying a physical blow to a single person's flesh and blood" 'the world' is generally the term for 'universe' and 'phase' in Index. Kamachi has examples of separating the 'planet' from the 'world' various times so it's not a far-cry from possible universal level. It even says 'to the ends of the galaxy' which can be interpreted as going further or just a bit more. I'm not saying it's 100% universal but the logic is there.

Lol if he reached the galaxy he didn't reach the universe lol you're saying the galaxy is as big as universe? He added the tree to the cosmos

Not what i said. Read it carefully. Kamachi interprets 'The world' and 'planet' differently, and he specifically mentions 'the world'. It's applied on the phase itself, so while as a sapling it only shook the galaxy, it's not a far-cry to say it can't be universal to some degree. But that's still only a possibility but the 3C is factual.