Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[XDragnoir]

Btw, which is more likely the reason of the number of each LV5? Calc power, usefulness to Aleister or the order they became LV5s?

 

[ZERO7772]

usefulness to Aleister

.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Btw, which is more likely the reason of the number of each LV5? Calc power, usefulness to Aleister or the order they became LV5s?

Pretty sure it was literally stated at some point that they are ranked by usefulness.

 

[DontTalkDT]

How do I notice only now that someone once requested to use Tree Diagram to calculate "The color of panties that Misaka wears" lol
(At least according to the wiki that's what it is supposed to say)

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

How do I notice only now that someone once requested to use Tree Diagram to calculate "The color of panties that Misaka wears" lol

You probably skipped Toaru Anbu no Conference.

 

[XDragnoir]

Pretty sure it was literally stated at some point that they are ranked by usefulness.

Meh, i don't remember this, any idea where it is?

But at least i had already noticed the Panties Diagram, lmao.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Meh, i don't remember this, any idea where it is?

In railgun chapter 30 Mugino mentions that the ranking is based on the value of the ability to research. Would need to search for the Aleister part.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's some interesting calc for volume 1 Kanzaki. Gotta get that evaluated at some point.

 

[XDragnoir]

What's her current speed? Around mach 100? Yeah that would be a nice upgrade.

And LMAO, the high end is a bit above Coronzon's speed feat right? The calc at mach 11188.8

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yep, slightly higher. I like that the feat is kinda consistent these days, with Elizard blocking satellite beams or Mathers blocking lightrays.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, the high end is very consistent and Kanzaki isn't far from being a high tier anyway, she even has a spell that can block Dimensional Slicing.

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, i remember someone saying IB's power null and thus it's backup is based in the Pure World, does everyone agree with that? Are there quotes confirming this? Because i think it is really contradictory with the setting's cosmology

 

[Zensum]

Yes. What's contradictory?

“The man who names himself the Silver Star seems to have been attempting to directly tamper with the ‘pure world’ beyond all the filters...that is, the world of science that is unaffected by religion. ...Honestly, you are quite fortunate to see this. Not even the Golden cabal of Europe that dreamed in Tibet was able to reach this point.”

Kamijou could not guess how much value this had.

If Index saw it, she might have felt differently.

But...

(She is the extreme form of one who creates. She forces unnecessary or mistaken gears into the world and that completely changes the scene before me.)

Kamijou Touma tightly clenched his right fist.

(That must mean Imagine Breaker is special to her. It destroys. It does the opposite of what a god does. This hand holds the possibility of erasing what is unnecessary. In that case, it should be possible to fix the gears that have been thrown out of order.)

Ollerus had said Imagine Breaker was the selfish dreams of all magicians.

If their twisting of the world produced a disadvantageous result, that reference point or restoration point could return it to normal or erase what was done.

And wasn’t this exactly such a case?

It seemed the filters Othinus spoke of were existences or concepts identical to heaven or hell. He was unsure if he could destroy something so massive. In fact, he could not even imagine what kind of phenomenon would be produced if he touched heaven or hell.

But there was a possibility there. He still had a chance.

Toaru Majutsu no Index: New Testament - Volume 9

He said it’s a reference point to return the world to normal after it is twisted by their desires. I don’t know if that’s its true origin, but it can be used like that. You could say this is the other card you could play. It represents the original world.

Toaru Majutsu no Index: New Testament - Volume 9

“My right hand. I was only able to use it for fights, but you must know a better way to use it. You can use it as the reference point for the world that Ollerus mentioned.”

Toaru Majutsu no Index: New Testament - Volume 9

 

[XDragnoir]

"It seemed the filters Othinus spoke of were existences or concepts identical to heaven or hell. He was unsure if he could destroy something so massive. In fact, he could not even imagine what kind of phenomenon would be produced if he touched heaven or hell."

I was thinking that, due to the verse having a single universe, IB would be touching all phases at the same time and should have already nulled them all, but i think this is the only quote talking about this (maybe Motoharu talked about that a bit back in OT4, but whatever).

The other part of my problem was that if IB is a backup of the Pure World, then using it to restore all phases likes Othinus did wouldn't make much sense, since they aren't natural things and wouldn't be stored in the backup meant for natural things.

So it is more verse mechanics than a contradiction, thanks anyway.

 

[Zensum]

It’s better to think of the setting more practically as the physical universe exists at the bottom with the normally undetectable phases stacked on top, which we know twist the context of the base world like viewing through layers of colored cellophane. I know Tsuchimikado explains the nature of Heaven and Hell to Kamijou as realms that occupy the same space with wavelengths that are higher and lower respectively and the physical world of the living in the middle, but his analogy was more pertaining to their frequency being too low or high for perception like infrared and ultraviolet and certain parts of that description don’t completely hold anymore after Othinus' more robust explanation. For example we know when a phase is visible, like during WW3, it appears to occupy the same space as the physical world, but in actuality that phase layer exists above it.

The main point is it depends on who’s using it and how it’s used. Othinus is trying to reach her original world not the Pure World. She’s using Imagine Breaker like an undo button to revert the changes back to the phase configuration that is equivalent to the old world she can no longer remember to the satisfaction of her god perspective. As opposed to just merely annihilating all existing phases and creating it, which she could just do herself.

 

[Malox1696]

"It seemed the filters Othinus spoke of were existences or concepts identical to heaven or hell. He was unsure if he could destroy something so massive. In fact, he could not even imagine what kind of phenomenon would be produced if he touched heaven or hell."

I was thinking that, due to the verse having a single universe, IB would be touching all phases at the same time and should have already nulled them all, but i think this is the only quote talking about this (maybe Motoharu talked about that a bit back in OT4, but whatever).

The other part of my problem was that if IB is a backup of the Pure World, then using it to restore all phases likes Othinus did wouldn't make much sense, since they aren't natural things and wouldn't be stored in the backup meant for natural things.

So it is more verse mechanics than a contradiction, thanks anyway.

Well i will explain to are cosmology simply , have u ever used Photoshop , illustrator or any IMG editing software? Do u know what layers are ? Basically phases are layer on top of the original IMG, so they GENERALLY don't touch each other but the end result IMG that u see is a combination of the layers, IB does not negates the phases cause it can't touch them similar to how u can't erase something on a layer u are not , IB would need to have acces to the layer , which MG actually can do as othinus showed as she can interfere with the phases and by using IB she can even delete whole layer instead of just stuff on the layers, othinus used IB to delete the most recent layers until the resulting img was to her like
Normal magic used by magicians and esper power work by creating or changing something on the same layer as IB so they get negated , phases instead are not directly affecting the layer where IB is just the resulting IMG

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, i know how the cosmology works, i was just taking all explanations as valid instead of removing Motoharu's from it.

 

[Malox1696]

Yeah, i know how the cosmology works, i was just taking all explanations as valid instead of removing Motoharu's from it.

motaharu explanation still works , IB can't interact with phases because it's not on the same frequency as them (similar to how u need 2 sound waves of the same frequency to interfere each other)

 

[XDragnoir]

Btw DT, what happened with the 5B calc for Gabriel at the end of WWIII? It would be nice to have a number for the 5B's AP.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, you know that I disagree with that being applicable to anything.

By a simple potential energy calc the result would be about (6.674*10^-11*5.972*10^24*1.989*10^30)/149600000000 = 5.299186336363636363*10^33J
From that we subtract the KE earth already has: 0.5*5.972*10^24 kg*(29780 m/s)^2 = 2.6481293224e33 J
For a total: 5.299186336363636363*10^33J - 2.6481293224e33 J = 2.6510570139636364e33J

 

[XDragnoir]

That's close to 5B+, no?

I think we could change it's third key to "H6C, 6B, possibly 5B via absorption", since it didn't actually restore the wings to cause the explosion. It would scale to true form Gabriel (the one Mathers can summon) so it wouldn't be totally useless.

Anyway, i just think Gab's profile is a bit of a mess, his first key is 7A for fighting Yuisen Kanzaki, a H6C.

Btw, Fiamma would also scale to it, so it would apply to most of the 5Bs in the verse.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's close to 5B+, no?

Not really. + would be about twice that, I believe.

I think we could change it's third key to "H6C, 6B, possibly 5B via absorption", since it didn't actually restore the wings to cause the explosion.

? I'm not sure what you mean by restore the wings, but the only way gabriel is possibly 5-B is when it absorbs so much water that its physical vessel overloads and explodes. So it's at best 5-B via a specific self-destruction technique. Which he maybe can restore himself from, to be fair, although that would likely cost him much power.

It would scale to true form Gabriel (the one Mathers can summon) so it wouldn't be totally useless.

Where do you get that idea from? Mathers was a proper summoning, but I doubt it had a much better vessel than WWIII Gabriel nor had it absorbed as much water to power itself up as the theoretical version.

Anyway, i just think Gab's profile is a bit of a mess, his first key is 7A for fighting Yuisen Kanzaki, a H6C.

With Yuisen Kanzaki actually easily sliced through the wings of Gabriel in that battle, while her other techniques failed to do more than slow them down.

Btw, Fiamma would also scale to it, so it would apply to most of the 5Bs in the verse.

Would he? The power was stated to be too great for a physical vessel, so I feel like that's debatable. I guess it could be supporting evidence.

 

[XDragnoir]

Not really. + would be about twice that, I believe.

Better than baseline.

? I'm not sure what you mean by restore the wings, but the only way gabriel is possibly 5-B is when it absorbs so much water that its physical vessel overloads and explodes. So it's at best 5-B via a specific self-destruction technique. Which he maybe can restore himself from, to be fair, although that would likely cost him much power.

“Is she making a new power? …No, she might be replenishing her physical body,” Stiyl muttered while frowning.

Gab was restoring it's body, but the part about the wings comes from the profile:

(It was going to melt all the ice at the North Pole and cause a 1000 km radius phreatic explosion just to restore its wings)

Body, wings, whatever, but yeah i didn't take the suicide part in account there, it would be better to change to "H6C, 6B via Absorption, possibly 5B with suicide technique" or something like that then. Do you mean restore after the explosion? Probably yes due to regen.

Where do you get that idea from? Mathers was a proper summoning, but I doubt it had a much better vessel than WWIII Gabriel nor had it absorbed as much water to power itself up as the theoretical version.

“It is not unusual to see angels before him. Thus, the archangels of fire, water, wind, and earth will naturally descend to guard him!!”

One wielded a sword, one carried lily flowers, one protected an adventurer, and one guarded the gates of hell.

All of a sudden, there were four of those winged higher beings.

Each of them carried enough firepower to obliterate this unclean world.

It is said to be a natural thing not some sort of imperfect manifestation like Angel Fall, they are said to be higher beings (iirc the other times we saw Gabriel nothing like that was said, but i could be wrong here) and the part saying they have enough power to obliterate the world, which goes in-line with Misha's physical body exploding with the force of a planet trying to reach true archangel level.

Any absorption wouldn't be needed cause the entire point of absorbing the water was to reach the level of true archangel, which those four Mathers summoned are already.

With Yuisen Kanzaki actually easily sliced through the wings of Gabriel in that battle, while her other techniques failed to do more than slow them down.

Well, i remember it was noted somewhere in WWIII that the Gabriel in the war was made with remaining energy from Angel Fall, so it makes more sense for them to be comparable than WWIII to be way stronger, and Gabriel was overloading Kanzaki at one point, but i guess that's more because Yuisen does not raise her dura?

Would he? The power was stated to be too great for a physical vessel, so I feel like that's debatable. I guess it could be supporting evidence.

Fiamma's power is more focused in the Holy Right (which is a magical thing) than in his own body, so i guess it "just works"? I am talking about LPSAD obviously, who also has the feat of "blowing the planet away", and i remember someone saying it would be a better feat than turning the planet to dust due to GBE or something like that.

 

[Ren1999]

Follow

 

[XDragnoir]

There are some speed related things that i think deserve some revisions, like Aleister blitzing Fiamma that seems to be purely speed based, or the 10 nanoseconds reaction that should be in all 5B profiles.

Mina also needs her speed revised since she still gets her scaling from Accelerator.

 

[SemiRaedi]

Kihara has only genius intelligence despite being able to do his Kihara counter which requires him to know the exact timing of when he'll get reflected and know exactly what changes accelerator will make so that he can still perform the counter and accelerator is capable of changing his barrier so that he is capable of blocking 25,000 different types of matter that doesn't exist/follow the rules of the universe all classified as light and this is all based on him knowing accelerators personality so well rather than some sort of mind reading.

 

[Zensum]

I think Extraordinary Genius requires genius across many different fields and while Amata's intelligence is very meme it's also in a very specialized field.

 

[SemiRaedi]

ah okay

 

[XDragnoir]

Ergenverse was recently "downgraded" from H1B to 2C-2B because their H1B powers are hax only and don't apply to their AP/Dura, shouldn't we do the same with MGs? Since they only have H1C with phase manipulation.

 

[Axscell]

Ergenverse was recently "downgraded" from H1B to 2C-2B because their H1B powers are hax only and don't apply to their AP/Dura, shouldn't we do the same with MGs? Since they only have H1C with phase manipulation.

Don't they accidentally destroy the High-1C world just by moving an arm or a leg?

 

[Malox1696]

Ergenverse was recently "downgraded" from H1B to 2C-2B because their H1B powers are hax only and don't apply to their AP/Dura, shouldn't we do the same with MGs? Since they only have H1C with phase manipulation.

mhhh that depends, as basically magic gods are all hax they don't really have have stronger body than a human it's just magic constantly boosting them , and even in nerfed form HP is basically invulnerable once again thanks to hax , tho i think the difference is can they apply their power to direct AP and dura ? yes they can, it's just not constant but at will

 

[XDragnoir]

Don't they accidentally destroy the High-1C world just by moving an arm or a leg?

Would that be valid?

“Miss Zombie’s theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg.”

It says power, not body or size, but it also talks about moving their arms/legs, so i think it is valid? IDK.

But after thinking about it, i think this is like DBZ/DBS? 3D characters with enough power to punch a 4D world (11D in MG's case).

 

[XDragnoir]

Why Thor's 2km Blades scale to Mjolnir's full power, btw? I don't remember them being stated to be equals

 

[Zensum]

Isn't that only in Lightning God Thor w/ Mjölnir's support spell?

 

[XDragnoir]

Isn't that only in Lightning God Thor w/ Mjölnir's support spell?

Yeah but the blades themselves still have a power level way below that of the H6C feat, and it isn't like Mjolnir is H6C by default, it needs to build electricity to cause the H6C feat, so i really don't get why we are scaling one to the other.

 

[Zensum]

Yeah but the blades themselves still have a power level way below that of the H6C feat, and it isn't like Mjolnir is H6C by default, it needs to build electricity to cause the H6C feat, so i really don't get why we are scaling one to the other.

I believe idol theory of Mjölnir's Throwing Hammer spell involves imitating the concept of swinging Thor's hammer and that's why it arcs in a halo before it uses the H6-C feat rather than "building up electricity". Why Lightning God Thor's Arc Fusion blades scale to this attack specifically I can't remember outside the fact he scales to Saints.

 

[XDragnoir]

I believe idol theory of Mjölnir's Throwing Hammer spell involves imitating the concept of swinging Thor's hammer and that's why it arcs in a halo before it uses the H6-C feat rather than "building up electricity". Why Lightning God Thor's Arc Fusion blades scale to this attack specifically I can't remember outside the fact he scales to Saints.

I mean, you are right about why it spins, but it does not change that it still spins and thus isn't a "instant" effect/tier, we even have 7A as Mjolnir's normal tier, so i don't think taking the H6C as the right "Mjolnir's power level as a source" without indication to that makes sense.

There is no reason to Saints to scale to it tho afaik. It seems the current stats are following this logic:

Throwing Hammer = H6C (no problem here)
2Km Blades has Mjolnir as a power source = H6C (without some statement, this is a problem)
2Km Blades rival Silvia's power = H6C (with the above this seems to be right)
Silvia = would be a problem to Carissa/KL = H6C

But after this point there are some really strange things:

Kanzaki = Comparable to Silvia = 7A
Yuisen = Scales to Acqua and Carissa, can cut an archangel = H6C
Acqua = Stronger than Yuisen = H6C
Carissa = Stronger than Acqua = H6C
Carissaa w/ Shards = Fought Versailles/WW3 Gabriel = H6C
Versailles = Fought Carissa/WW3 Gabriel = H6C
OT4 Gabriel = Stomped by Yuisen Kanzaki = 7A
WW3 Gabriel = Should be stronger than Mjolnir (why exactly? i don't remember a statement about this)

So, there is circular scaling in Yuisen, a "comparable" statement placing Kanzaki 3 tiers below who she is comparable to, and some other problems (like WW3 Gabriel being much stronger than OT4 as i said before), so even if there is a statement about 2km Blades being = Throwing Hammer, there are other problems in the current scaling, idk if just changing the wording would solve all of them, but i still think all of that is strange.

 

[Zensum]

I see what you're saying.
"Comparable to other Saints like Silvia" doesn't need to be worded like that on Kanzaki's profile since she's weaker than Silvia.
"Can match Acqua of the Back, Carissa's Curtana Original's power and Brunhild's Gungnir Replica"
Yuisen shouldn't be scaling to Acqua since he tanked it casually. Yuisen was even useless against a weaker Knight Leader w/ Curtana's blessing. Yuisen was parried easily by nerfed by Coven Compass Curtana Original in the 3v1, Shichiten only avoided being destroyed by the severing spell because of the inconsistency produced from two magics that can "cut through anything". It would probably be more accurate to say Yuisen could only match Gungnir Replica at 70% of its max power due to fluctuations of christian symbol impurities and the Final Rune's completion and as the fight went on Kanzaki began to fall behind. Carissa w/ Shards of Curtana and the Maiden of Versailles w/ Durendal could destroy WW3 Misha's wings but they couldn't pierce her body at all. Yuisen in OT4 is fine. WW3 Misha would get the scaling but I dont recall a statement directly comparing her to Mjölnir's Throwing Hammer spell's output.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yuisen in OT4 is fine. WW3 Misha would get the scaling but I dont recall a statement directly comparing her to Mjölnir's Throwing Hammer spell's output.

I didn't get those parts here, none of those 2 should get the scaling to Throwing Hammer exactly because there aren't statements comparing them, and these two are the base for the whole H6C scaling chain.

 

[Zensum]

I didn't get those parts here, none of those 2 should get the scaling to Throwing Hammer exactly because there aren't statements comparing them, and these two are the base for the whole H6C scaling chain.

I was saying Yuisen > OT4 Misha's wings is fine and that WW3 Misha scales above Saint characters. I don't have a statement for anything scaling to Throwing Hammer spell, I'll have to look in the novel.