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Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

Which abilities do y'all think those that have crossed the Abyss could get for it?

I am not talking about scaling to X or Y character, just to make it extra clear, I asking about things that go in the Powers & Abilities section of the profile and that would apply to all Abyss Crossers (Accel, Coronzon, etc).

It's been a thing for more than 10 volumes by now and we haven't really put much attention to it, given that the new volume is pretty close this is probably not the best time to start a CRT about this but I'd like to see what everyone thinks of the matter.
 
XDragnoir said:
Which abilities do y'all think those that have crossed the Abyss could get for it?

I am not talking about scaling to X or Y character, just to make it extra clear, I asking about things that go in the Powers & Abilities section of the profile and that would apply to all Abyss Crossers (Accel, Coronzon, etc).

It's been a thing for more than 10 volumes by now and we haven't really put much attention to it, given that the new volume is pretty close this is probably not the best time to start a CRT about this but I'd like to see what everyone thinks of the matter.
Click to expand...
Maybe some degree of resistance to the magic abilities of those who haven't? Tbh unless future volumes further elaborate on it, it's going to be hard to give them anything clear cut, because AFAIK, those who had crossed it didn't really have anything in common by way of abilities. Didn't it also have something to do with souls and their rankings?
 
We know only the appropriate knowledge grants you the pure elements, and those with surface world knowledge like Mathers can't access it.
“It is time to shake Kochab, the planet protected by Raphael. But do not forget. Though
the names may differ, the entire celestial sphere points to a single tree. All elements fall
within my grasp and no element found on the surface of the four worlds or to the very
ends of this earth can be fully separated. Therefore, only the appropriate knowledge
allows one to reach their pure form.”
-NT21
Click to expand...
That's it.
 
ShadeyD said:
Should crossing the Abyss give you resistance to Madness Manipulation
Click to expand...
Why tho? Are you thinking of Qliphah's Madness hax? That would be good, yeah.

Churronzon said:
We know only the appropriate knowledge grants you the pure elements, and those with surface world knowledge like Mathers can't access it.

That's it.
Click to expand...
But why do you think it's limited to that? Although it has not be explained extensively, it doesn't seem to be strictly limited to a knowledge thing.
 
XDragnoir said:
I kinda disagree, but okay.
Click to expand...
It was said multiple times that crossing the abyss gives you knowledge. I'm pretty sure nothing else was ever mentioned.

Great Demon Coronzon was a demon of the Sephiroth rather than the Qliphoth.

She hid in the territory known as the Abyss where the hidden Sephirah named Da'at was also found. From there, she managed who ascended and descended the tree. She was the manager whose role was to prevent foolish humans from reaching the tree's knowledge too easily.

- NT22 Chapter 4 Part 11
Click to expand...
"Thus, I can become the manager seated in the unmarked eleventh sphere!! My name is Qliphah Puzzle 545, my number is the true eleven, and its meaning is 'the stepping stone of wickedness that supports good deeds'! The path of seventy-eight cards is found here. I provide power to my contractual master, the transcendent lifeform who controls the entirety of the still nameless third three. I offer the path of survival to that being! I offer him the wisdom found beyond the Abyss!!!!!"

- NT22 Chapter 4 Part 11
Click to expand...
"The blood of three doves summons a demon. The target is the angel who wanders the tenth Aethyr of ZAX and is hidden in the Sephiroth's Abyss along with Da'at. She is the transcendent being necessary to cross the Abyss and acquire the knowledge beyond."

- NT22 Chapter 4 Part 14
Click to expand...
"Try it then. Kee hee hee. I am the ruler of the Abyss and the guardian of the knowledge beyond. No miracle reliant on the Sephiroth or the Qliphoth can kill me. Because I control who ascends and descends the tree.”

- NT22 Chapter 4 Part 14
Click to expand...
“Have you forgotten my joint experiment with Neuburg, Coronzon? It had to be halted because you refused to obey, but that was never actually annulled. Wasn’t this the original form of the contract we were meant to make? The magician Aleister invites in Coronzon and gains the knowledge found by crossing the Sephiroth’s Abyss. …This ended up a little different, but it is what it is. I had thought it meant you entering my body, but we seem to have ended up with the reverse. Magical sparks and spray always return to you in the way you least expect it. I never imagined I would receive that fundamental lesson again now of all times.”

- NT22 Ending
Click to expand...
 
GunTish said:
It was said multiple times that crossing the abyss gives you knowledge. I'm pretty sure nothing else was ever mentioned.
Click to expand...
It was also stated to allow someone to ascend the Sephiroth, IMO this could led to some kind of addition if we look closer to it, beyond the obvious "beyond knowledge" that's constantly stated.
 
XDragnoir said:
Which abilities do y'all think those that have crossed the Abyss could get for it?

I am not talking about scaling to X or Y character, just to make it extra clear, I asking about things that go in the Powers & Abilities section of the profile and that would apply to all Abyss Crossers (Accel, Coronzon, etc).

It's been a thing for more than 10 volumes by now and we haven't really put much attention to it, given that the new volume is pretty close this is probably not the best time to start a CRT about this but I'd like to see what everyone thinks of the matter.
Click to expand...
What I realized is that those crossing the abyss have the power to resist the Nerfed Magic Gods (in knowledge too if we take da'at)
 
went to the Power of the Verse for Toaru after seeing this
vsbattles.com

Removing Power of the Verse from Verse pages

Or at least the template, obviously instating this as a mass edit that has to be done IMMEDIATELY just bogs things down Either way, to the point... Does anyone actually use this as a frame of reference? Like, let's look at how the standard format describes the purpose of this section. This...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
damn it's super outdated lmao
 
How many people here are still interested in a detailed power scaling text about the GT10?

In the latest volume, Kamachi finally resolved many of the questions we had, such as:

The extent of Alice's magical abilities
(Equal to Othinus's Manipulation)

An exact comparison of the power levels between Kingsford, CRC, Aleister, and Alice

I am willing to provide the full text if necessary.

It also includes an expansion of dimensional theory, including all integer dimensions.

Thanks to Alice, we can now escape from the slander that Toaru's dimensional theory ends at 11 dimensions just because "it wasn't shown."
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Please tell. Also if you could provide the RAWs of the original text that would be lovely.
Click to expand...

ok,

First of all, to put it briefly, it no longer matters whether Toaru is truly 11-dimensional or has transcended it.

As long as Alice encounters a "theory" that has appeared on a desk, even if it's just once or a single line, regardless of whether the theory is true or false, or whether there are contradictions within the theory, it doesn't matter.

She can use that theory as the basis for her Bridge technique to twist the world.

This is described as being on the same level of world manipulation as Othinus in the past.

Furthermore, Alice is described as someone who has the right to completely end the world, just like Othinus.

You might wonder what this has to do with dimensional theory.

In GT10, quantum theory itself is mentioned as a theory that Alice can manipulate.

This includes the vast framework that encompasses quantum mechanics.

And we will remember that many quantum theories have appeared in Toaru on numerous occasions in the past.

Schrödinger's cat paradox

(To resolve this, the Copenhagen interpretation and the many-worlds interpretation are necessary)

Quantum mechanics

Euclidean geometry

Alice can introduce and manipulate all of these theories into the world regardless of their truth or falsehood, and the equivalent level of manipulation is the Phase manipulation of the Magic Gods.

And regarding the definite power hierarchy:

Until GT9

Alice = MGs >> CRC > Kingsford > Aleister

GT10 SPO

Alice = MGs > Anna S (Aiwass Amplifier + Kingsford's help) > CRC > Kingsford > Aleister

1. Alice can very easily kill CRC.

2. Kingsford has not yet reached Alice's level.

3. If CRC and Kingsford were to face each other head-on, Kingsford would definitely be killed. (In GT9, for some unknown reason, CRC forgot that Kingsford is a permanent corpse)

4. Even if Aleister uses all means available, he cannot defeat Kingsford in a one-on-one confrontation.

This concludes the summary of the relevant text.

I will provide the direct page attachments after I finish work.
In addition, there is a misconception circulating about the realm where Kamijou Touma resides after his death, with some incorrectly speculating that it is the "Pure World." However, this is not true.

The place is only referred to as "outliers [外れた場所]" (a place that is out of place or outside the norm).

Whether it is a Phase or the Pure World, we do not yet know anything about it.

I'm really looking forward to the release of GT11.
 
low 1-A current i think since real coordinate spaces cap at aleph 1
Idk with the new tiering system, maybe low 1-A as well
 
Sorry for being late.



The first and second images show a comparison between Alice and Othinus.

1.
The reference point of the world.
Therefore, something that negates all illusions.
In other words, it has no effect on an existence that distorts the reference point itself. For example, even if touched by the right hand, the infinite world created by Othinus did not shatter.
Alice penetrates the world at that level.
It's just that she hasn't done so yet.

2.
The one who said that was Othinus.
She, too, is a god who has already completely shattered the world once and was hunted down by all of humanity as a great sinner.
Such a Magicgod speaks while looking at a monster who has the same qualifications to end the world.

third part about Alice's ability

3.
Whether it was conclusively proven or just a hypothesis,
It doesn't matter to Alice.
Geocentric theory, combustion, the fact that a nuclear war actually happened long ago, or that dinosaur farts caused an ice age, it doesn't matter. Of course, obvious correct answers like the law of universal gravitation and quantum theory are also fine. Regardless of right or wrong, if there is a theory that someone among humanity has thought of and organized on the table even once, Alice can connect it as a bridge and combine it. She can select and connect only the desired theories to completely transform the world. The ultimate conversion device. She can place the Yamatai Country in a place she likes, invent a perpetual motion machine of the first kind that produces infinite energy, and recreate the Earth as a flat surface instead of a sphere.

In other words, if there is an explanation in just one of the 103,000 volumes,
Just one sentence,
Just one line is enough.
No matter how absurd or difficult it is to achieve,

And as mathematical and quantum-related theories mentioned in Toaru, I have confirmed:
Schrödinger's Cat, Many-Worlds Interpretation, Copenhagen Interpretation, and von Neumann (he is the one who advocated the Hilbert Space theory).
If a comprehensive cosmological CRT of Toaru, including Alice, Magic Gods, Coronzon (Flaming Sword), etc., is generated later, I will provide it.



From here, it shows a comparison of the characters below them.

The first shows the scene where Aleister stands in the way of Kingsford, who is heading towards Alice on his own.
Even using all the dirty means he used in the "Briceroad Battle," which drove the world's largest magical organization to ruin, it's no use.
He can't win in a simple one-on-one fight.

Even using all means, Aleister cannot defeat Kingsford.

The second is a passage comparing Alice, CRC, and Kingsford all at once.

The battle itself could not be won. It was fortunate that CRC, who could instantly search for everything in the world, had somehow forgotten the fact that Anna Kingsford was a permanent corpse. If it had been discovered, it would have been thoroughly destroyed and ended there.
I ask for an incalculable miracle.
The ultimate magician, called a master, would know that they lose when they lose.
They would know.
Alice Another Bible. The true monster that easily crushed, killed, and didn't even allow the opportunity for the loser's resurrection, making that CRC disappear from this world in a complete form.
Kingsford did not reach that point.

In a head-on confrontation, Kingsford can never defeat CRC.
And if Alice is normal, she can easily kill CRC forever.

Therefore, the overall power scaling is as follows:
Alice = Mgs(full power Othinus) >> CRC > Kingsford > Aleister (even using all means)

i haven't mentioned Anna Sprengel, who was awakened with the help of Kingsford and Aiwass, yet.
I'll talk about that later when I have time.
 

Piamma said:
1.
The reference point of the world.
Therefore, something that negates all illusions.
In other words, it has no effect on an existence that distorts the reference point itself. For example, even if touched by the right hand, the infinite world created by Othinus did not shatter.
Alice penetrates the world at that level.
It's just that she hasn't done so yet.
Click to expand...
Alice distorts the reference point itself on the level of Othinus' infinite world. It states that her world encompassing Reality Warp is bottom-line Othinus level.
No explicit equivalency regarding AP.
Piamma said:
2.
The one who said that was Othinus.
She, too, is a god who has already completely shattered the world once and was hunted down by all of humanity as a great sinner.
Such a Magicgod speaks while looking at a monster who has the same qualifications to end the world.
Click to expand...
It seems a subjective statement from Othinus that reinforces what we already know. It by no mean on itself establishes equivalency.

Piamma said:
Therefore, the overall power scaling is as follows:
Alice = Mgs(full power Othinus) >> CRC > Kingsford > Aleister (even using all means)
Click to expand...
We already know Aleister with all his means fought all MGs at once, survived and even later killed, not one, but two of them.
That includes a pre-second nerf Zombie, which power-wise is comparable to Othinus.

The fact that True Expert is called the ultimate magician and they just lose to Alice anyway doesn't help the status of MGs at all.
Not mentioning literal unknown planes of existence we are about to see that is distinguished with words pair 現世 and 異界

Though abiding VSB rules, I agree that ranked by provable AP:
Alice >= Coronzon with Mo/A >= Mgs(full power Othinus, who didn't destroy the Hidden World or TG that can be contained in HW) = RISK4 BBC (stated having equal destructive power to MGs) = JVA (who overwhelms such destructive power) = Kingsford (As preserved corpose) = Aleister (he with all his means cannot win whatsoever, but he has much, much higher provable baseline)
 
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ToaruCounterfeitCRC said:
Alice distorts the reference point itself on the level of Othinus' infinite world. It states that her world encompassing Reality Warp is bottom-line Othinus level.
No explicit equivalency regarding AP.
Click to expand...

If I understand correctly, you are saying that Alice's Reality Warping ability is at the bottom level shown by Othinus?

ToaruCounterfeitCRC said:
It seems a subjective statement from Othinus that reinforces what we already know. It by no mean on itself establishes equivalency.
Click to expand...

This is not her dialogue.
It is a description of the situation from the omniscient author's point of view, not a subjective statement.

ToaruCounterfeitCRC said:
We already know Aleister with all his means fought all MGs at once, survived and even later killed, not one, but two of them.
That includes a pre-second nerf Zombie, which power-wise is comparable to Othinus.

The fact that True Expert is called the ultimate magician and they just lose to Alice anyway doesn't help the status of MGs at all.
Not mentioning literal unknown planes of existence we are about to see that is distinguished with words pair 現世 and 異界

Though abiding VSB rules, I agree that ranked by provable AP:
Alice >= Coronzon with Mo/A >= Mgs(full power Othinus, who didn't destroy the Hidden World or TG that can be contained in HW) = RISK4 BBC (stated having equal destructive power to MGs) = JVA (who overwhelms such destructive power) = Kingsford (As preserved corpose) = Aleister (he with all his means cannot win whatsoever, but he has much, much higher provable baseline)
Click to expand...


I will not add much to your opinion regarding VSB rules, as I am still not very familiar with them.
However, I will discuss the parts that are definitely excluded and provide additional points.

If Aleister can be considered equal to higher-tier characters by defeating a full-power Zombie, then similarly, Othinus completely killed Alice at the end of NT8.
Therefore, I think it is correct to say Alice = MGs, just like Aleister case.
Although Alice was killed while defenseless, she was also killed defenseless by CRC, but easily recovered and killed CRC.
In other words, the Mgs' Phase manipulation is capable of perfectly killing Alice.

As for JVA, it seems to be mentioned as the only means to defeat Alice at the current point in the story, so it is also correct to list it as =.

From here on, the following points are definitely excluded.

In the case of Risk 4 BBC, it is completely incorrect to translate that they have destructive power equal to MGs. The afterword of GT6 means that BBCs are more biased toward destructive aspects than Magic Gods.

This means that while MGs have versatile abilities in all aspects, such as creation, manipulation, and destruction, BBCs only have destructive abilities. It can never be translated as equal destructive power.

Of course, in Aradia's case, it was mentioned that if she keeps amplifying her power, she can even defeat Mgs (it's open to interpretation whether Mgs are at full power). However, that is impossible in a normal confrontation situation. The opponents would not just stand still.

Also, the biggest reason for their exclusion is shown in GT10. The BBCs, whose powers originate from Alice, cannot harm Alice, and Alice can implement all their superior spells as a bridge. That's why the BBCs on Kamijou's side had to adopt a tactic of attacking Alice with Anna as the new center, not Alice .

In other words, it is difficult for them to obtain (=) in any sense.

I agree with all other points you mentioned.

Finally, based on the vs rule you mentioned, my suggestion is as follows:

Alice = Mgs = Coronzon(Mo/a) = jva >= kingsford >= Aleister > bbc (except anna & alice)

Honestly, since the power balance in Toaru varies like rock-paper-scissors depending on various factors such as personality and preparation, not just the magnitude of their powers, I think it's not a bad idea to break it down into objective matchups rather than listing them in a single hierarchy.

Mgs > All (NT8, 10)

Alice = Mgs (GT10)

Alice > CRC > Kingsford > BBC (In fact, this is the most definitive part that can be represented absolutely. Unlike the others, their rankings can never be overturned no matter what happens.)

Aleister > Mgs (NT12)

JVA > Alice (Mentioned as a means)

Coronzon(Mo/A) > All (NT22, if that magic is completed)

Kingsford > Aleister (It was directly stated that he cannot win even with all his means, unlike how he thoroughly prepared to fight the Magic Gods)

I think it would be good for us to exchange opinions on what method would be best.
 

Piamma said:
If I understand correctly, you are saying that Alice's Reality Warping ability is at the bottom level shown by Othinus?

snip
Click to expand...
Yeah, I did mean she can only be >= Magic God level. From my understanding based on my rough read-through and currently translated English text, Alice's power is a superset to the Phase Manipulation demonstrated by Magic Gods. In fact she's stated to be able to arbitarily link any magic theory she is aware of, and plot wise she skimmed through all 103,001 grimories in Index's head, only to find out she can't overrule the prediction she herself made.

It does appear that I mistook the paragraph about Othinus as an internal monologue, and after re-reading it I do acknowledge this wasn't the case here.

On the VSB rule, it basically requires that we either chain-scale them with the result shown in head-on confrontations or present a clear-cut objective statement from an omnisicent narrotor. This causes great trouble because Kamachi likes to write multiverse threatening beings fight on a street without utterly erase the surrounding out of existence.

He probably realizes this too and decides to have the main fights happen inside a God-know what's changed pocket dimension altered by Alice's power in GT10. But we still rarely get a baseline on their attack potency, meaning we either chain-scale based on award cyclic result so they're all equal in rating or we have to down-grade a great deal of them to 3d universe, planet, or even country-level. We'd have Kingsford at street level while HT who's miniminally 3-A would definitely get foddered by her in a fight.

Other than above, I look forward to the full translation of GT10 in English, and I believe a great deal of our hassles will be resolved, probably also a bunch of upgrade incoming.
 
Side question, did anyone here list the abilities Frillsand got in GT5? Her profile was never update to include that power up.
 
Yep, it won't anytime soon huh. I thought Toaru got enough contexts to at least get to outer, why are we still stucking here? Isn't Kabbalah alone enough to get Toaru to outer? Just wondering.

And where is CRC's profile? Is he too vague to be added or something?
 
Acertainbcplayer said:
Isn't Kabbalah alone enough to get Toaru to outer?
Click to expand...
Actual Kabbalistic magic isn't shown until GT5, and its farthest extent only gets revealed in the newest volume.
We can't just say there's Ein Sof in Toaru and voila the verse is tier 0.
i.e we're still waiting for the English translation. Piamma has posted the part in GT10 which we need, and js06 is almost there.
 
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