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Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

Do you guys wanna proceed with drafting a CRT for changes to implement and profiles to make from the recent volumes (GT9 & 10), or do you wanna hold off on the idea for a bit (for one reason or the other)?
 
Speed tiering for CRC and Dragon King seemed kinda unquantifiable to me, unless we scale off of Dragon Shell. Similarly, I'm assuming the crowned Dragon King doesn't have a definitive tier to be placed at, so just Unknown? Unless he like scales to Alice or something, but I'll let you guys figure that one out.

This is what I got. Still need to review it.

Kamijou Touma​

Base key​

Multiple Selves (Type 1; inhabits an ability which gained an autonomous mind of its own)
Limited Creation (Created a triangular prism out of his shoulder that proceeded to take on the shape of Kamijou no Touma)
Quantum manip, Subjective Reality, Limited Law manip, and Limited Probability Manip | These are abilities every esper has, even those that don't have a manifested ability | (Espers can observe their surroundings to intentionally alter probability at the quantum level, and produce various abilities with their blurred cognition)
Weakness for all espers: Using magic causes espers to take internal damage and potentially die, Touma included (see GT2)
Stamina justification: (Continued fighting after having the bones in his first, elbow, and shoulder broken, back split open, organs rupturing like a water balloon, and flesh flayed away to the bone)

"Beyond the Right Hand" key​

Type 7 immortality for undead flame dragon. (Is an undead)

"Dragon Shell" key​

Flight (Has wings that can be used for flight)
Bodily weaponry via claws and jaws

Dragon Lord/Crowned Dragon King - (New key; not sure which name we're using)​

Likely has all of the abilities of the prior dragons (Evidenced by Jormungand once again making an appearance and using previously displayed abilities)
Superhuman physical characteristics
Bodily Weaponry (Razor teeth, scales, tongue)
Body control and Flight (Can grow wings)
Darkness manipulation (Touma's shadow flickers wildly as he approaches death)
Energy Projection
Absorption and Breath Attack (Released a breath attack based off a medical waste incinerator reaching 3500 degrees after chewing on a piece of the furnace)¯\(ツ)/¯
Law manipulation (Commands all living things and inanimate objects allowing him to not bring harm to anyone around him as everything splits apart neatly and reconstructs itself as if it were made of gelatin)
Spatial manipulation (Can cut through space; his clashing willpower distorts space)
Gravity manipulation (Could trigger an inwards gravitational collapse in space, creating an irreparable hole)
Air, Weather, and Electricity manip (Can launch air as if it were a solid mass, control the weather, and strike with lightning)
Conversion to existence (Forced Johann to establish his existence after the latter had made himself as useless to attack as trying to attack the unobservable Schrödinger's cat)
One-time use Regeneration (Mid; Can regenerate his head one time; although Touma is initially unaware of this; otherwise Mid-Low; can close up wounds to stop bleeding)
Fear manipulation (Passively causes those in the area to be paralyzed in fear)
Invisibility (Can turn invisible)
Power nullification (Attacks launched without a powerful intent to kill are destroyed and those that miss lose all meaning and vanish into thin air)
Existence erasure (Those bitten by the Dragon King get erased from the world)
Unconventional magic mimicry (High level magicians perceive his blood splatter for magic circles producing secret magic, causing him to produce their own magic to attack them, however there remains a chance the magic attacks Touma as well)

AP: Unknown (Should be vastly higher than his prior forms and entities)
Dura: Unknown
Speed: Unknown physically, Massively Hypersonic+ attack speed with lightning strikes, At least sub-relativistic reaction speed (Intercepted Johann's diamond magic from a small distance when it previously blitzed Aleister, Aiwass, and Coronzon's senses)
Lifting Strength: Unknown (Can support its own weight that Thor was unable to lift)
Stamina: Below Average energy exertion with Superhuman injury tolerance (Will succumb to blood loss in 10 minutes, however he demonstrates much of the same pain tolerance and endurance to push past his limits as he traditionally does) <This one's weird to categorize>
Range: Hundreds of Meters
Weakness: Can only maintain this state for 10 minutes before succumbing to blood loss

Aleister Crowley (Base key)​

Type 6 immortality (His consciousness gets transferred to one of the billion Crowley Hazards upon his death) - need scan for this 😑
ESP (Detected Coronzon spying on him from across the planet)
Darkness manip with shadow blade and I think Paralysis Inducement from incapacitating Maika
Information analysis & Statistics Reduction (Gained information on the Magic Gods' parameters with direct contact in order to hijack their spell and weaken them, though this required him to kill one of them first)
Additional NPI justification (Attacked and destroyed the 10 spheres of Qliphah's essence)
Removing weakness of needing his heart to regenerate, unless someone knows why it exists (I have a scan stating "it did not matter where the bullet holes were located")

New key (Aleiszon)​

Has all prior abilities from previous keys and possibly some of Coronzon's (via inhabiting her body and being able to call upon her), as well as:
Multiple Selves (Type 1; Hijacked Coronzon's body with her mind still inhabiting it)
Aura (Radiates a bestial aura, a red haze envelops them after a blood sacrifice which can be used to stab people in order to remove demons possessing them, emits an invisible miasma when rebooting himself)
Limited phase manipulation (Swapped the phase overlaying the world in order to strip Johann of his connection with the Holy Land)
Body Control, Flight, Wind Manip, and Corrosion Inducement (Can grow wings and blow a wind that deteriorates objects it makes contact with) I'm obligated to suggest this applies to Coronzon as well, either with or without a possibly conditional.
Forcefield creation (An invisible wall is placed in front of Aleister which diverted one of Johann's attacks.)
Statistics Amplification (Can boost himself by borrowing power from Aiwass and Coronzon)
Speed: Same as Base, at least Sub-Relativistic reaction speed (Can boost his reactions with Aiwass' and Coronzon's senses)

Intelligence:​

Has specialized knowledge from having crossed the Abyss of Da'at. Claims to have inherited the memories and techniques of the occultist, Eliphas Levi.
 
Last edited:
StrangerALover said:
So...
Whatever level we could give Alice? she clearly has infinite speed, since she moves instantly
Click to expand...
I agree with that, but at best that will be a indexed as a possibly given there's not much evidence for such a claim.

"At least subrel (fought Anna Sprengel), possibly up to infinite with Miracles (when using her miracles, it was stated she could reach anywhere instantly)"

I completely disagree with anything more than that given how her powers work and how that would affect the verse.
 
Last edited:
Aseka said:
I'd like to point out that Kamijou no Touma is an abstract existence, because it's manifestation from Touma's wishes/memory or something.
Click to expand...
Being created by something abstract doesn't make a character automatically abstract, they have to be abstract themselves, KNT isn't.
 
Btw, does anyone else here think Alice's reality warping (Live Adventures in Wonderland) should scale to H1C as it was directly compared to Othinus' own RW?

Which reminds me, if I haven't pointed it out yet, CRC, Dragon Lord Touma and Alice will all scale to at least 5B physically.

And while I am not 100% sure yet, other Transcendents can probably be 5B as well due to some important feats and information from GT9 and 10 (we can discuss the details when the CRT and their initial profiles are here tho)
 
Last edited:
XDragnoir said:
Btw, does anyone else here think Alice's reality warping (Live Adventures in Wonderland) should scale to H1C as it was directly compared to Othinus' own RW?

Which reminds me, if I haven't pointed it out yet, CRC, Dragon Lord Touma and Alice will all scale to at least 5B physically.

And while I am not 100% sure yet, other Transcendents can probably be 5B as well due to some important feats and information from GT9 and 10 (we can discuss the details when the CRT and their initial profiles are here tho)
Click to expand...

The Transcendents of Risk 4 have already proven their power to destroy or create an entire universe.
What is the reason they end at 5B?
 
Piamma said:
The Transcendents of Risk 4 have already proven their power to destroy or create an entire universe.
Click to expand...
I was more thinking of their non-Risk 4 (as we barely most risk 4s, Aradia used hers once, Bologna didn't use it once iirc, Mary and Trismegistus were the only ones who used it frequently).

And anyway, we definitely can't go around scaling Risk 4s to one another as they all clearly worked on entirely different rules.
 
XDragnoir said:
Which reminds me, if I haven't pointed it out yet, CRC, Dragon Lord Touma and Alice will all scale to at least 5B physically.

And while I am not 100% sure yet, other Transcendents can probably be 5B as well due to some important feats and information from GT9 and 10 (we can discuss the details when the CRT and their initial profiles are here tho)
Click to expand...
Can't really say much here.

I only heard bits and pieces of GT10 and actually read GT9 awhile but kinda hazy in everything since most ToAru stuff in my head has been pushed aside cuz of games, gacha games, waifus and actual rl stuff like my kitchen's renovation and finally getting that guest room in my house complete.
Piamma said:
The Transcendents of Risk 4 have already proven their power to destroy or create an entire universe.
What is the reason they end at 5B?
Click to expand...
Smth, smth, the Magic Gods (well. Othinus) showcased the greatest on-screen feat and the Transcendents (that aren't Alice) hadn't shown such a thing.

That, and High 1-C is a trash tier in the sense that ToAru's haxes aren't layered and there isn't any actual resistances for folks this high in the verse-thus, they all get bodied rather easily with peps with real hax.
XDragnoir said:
I was more thinking of their non-Risk 4 (as we barely most risk 4s, Aradia used hers once, Bologna didn't use it once iirc, Mary and Trismegistus were the only ones who used it frequently).

And anyway, we definitely can't go around scaling Risk 4s to one another as they all clearly worked on entirely different rules.
Click to expand...
Remember, tho. Bologna can exchange hands with buffed Aradia while heavily weakened by blood lost, so we got smth for their base scaling.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
That, and High 1-C is a trash tier in the sense that ToAru's haxes aren't layered and there isn't any actual resistances for folks this high in the verse-thus, they all get bodied rather easily with peps with real hax.
Click to expand...
Well, that's kinda true but that doesn't really affect Alice, she won't be physically H1C (it will be in her tier/AP tho).

And well, idk about you, but I don't really care about how Toaru's god tiers compare to other verses, because Kamachi simply didn't care to use them on actual fights on-screen.
 
XDragnoir said:
Well, that's kinda true but that doesn't really affect Alice, she won't be physically H1C (it will be in her tier/AP tho).

And well, idk about you, but I don't really care about how Toaru's god tiers compare to other verses, because Kamachi simply didn't care to use them on actual fights on-screen.
Click to expand...
Same, honestly.

Everything in that tier involves stuff that goes beyond me. The lower tiers, tho... That stuff just uses numbers and abilities. And I can understand that, lel.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Same, honestly.

Everything in that tier involves stuff that goes beyond me. The lower tiers, tho... That stuff just uses numbers and abilities. And I can understand that, lel.
Click to expand...
Fair enough.

Also, you were talking about resistances before, I asked some friends of mine some time ago and they said Alice's statements of being resistant to all kinds of internal damage could actually be expanded upon.

That would be really good given the verse has characters like Accel, Coronzon, the Kiharas and idk how many others with different types of internal damage.
 
Here's all the major feats that I've compiled for Alice from GT-10:

1. Social Influencing/Mind Manipulation: She has insane passive social influencing bordering on mental manipulation.
"Hm? Oh, you mean Kotatsu Syndrome?"
If he was being honest, he had completely
forgotten. He had assumed that had just
gone away once New Board Chairman
Accelerator declared martial law

That strange form of group psychology led
people to passively protest their entrance
exams and the new school term by lazing
around instead.

It led people to shortsightedly seek peace
and comfort without worrying about the
later consequences

"Let's head outside" was all Othinus said. "It
may not be visible from here, but you will
see soon enough."

Skeptical, Kamijou walked to the hospital
exit after his release process was complete.

The glass door was partially soundproofed.
probably to make life in the hospital more
comfortable for the patients

Something was exploding outside

At first, Kamijou had no idea what it was

He really did think something was exploding in the distance.

But when he listened more closely, he
realized it was an amalgam of voices.

"I'm sick of this martial law! You can't tell me what to do anymore-

"They're keeping down the little guy. as
usual!"

"Flip them!! Flip all those armored
monstrosities!"

Was that a wave of people? Were those
strange voices and noises being made by
human beings?

"I already saw it all on the way here."

Maybe the hospital was so busy because
people were claiming to feel sick and hiding out there for safety.

"It probably began with the melancholy
caused by winter break ending and the new
school term beginning," quietly explained
Othinus. "Then the new Board Chairman
declared martial law and banned them from leaving their homes, so their frustrations grew as their vacation passed them by under those restrictions. When Alice Anotherbible's return triggered a resurgence of Kotatsu Syndrome, it pushed all the city's residents' minds in the opposite direction".

This is entirely different from the gentle
social phenomenon built on escapism. I get the sense that, whether it will help them or hurt them, they will yell at and physically attack anyone who tries to boss them around."

This wasn't Kamijou's first time seeing a
city-wide riot.

For example, he had seen Academy City
during the Christmas season when Anna
Sprengel had arranged the rise of R&C
Occultics.

For example, he had seen Shibuya on
December 31 flooded with the youths
influenced by the Transcendents Aradia and the Bologna Succubus.

But this was different from those.

When it was caused by Alice Anotherbible
the nature of the riot changed.

"It's beginning"

"Acute Kotatsu Syndrome is a very different
threat from CRC, who was the ultimate
individual. This is a new trend- a countdown toward destruction by a group. If nothing is done about Alice, Academy City will be brought down by internal violence.

Maybe it could be stopped by a military
force, but that would require Anti-Skill, or
whoever else, to fire live ammunition on the
people of the city."

Othinus stared into the distance

She was more bothered by the moral
collapse than by the actual destruction.

"These people treating Academy City like
their own secret base will bring down the
city. And the world economy supported by
science will go down with it. They can't
suppress this with force like they do with
demonstrations. Not when it's backed by
Alice's charisma. This is being fueled from
the outside. Aiming a gun at these students
will not stop them, nor will actually firing on
them. So like I said, the only way to stop this is to slaughter every last Academy City
resident with Academy City's guns. Win or
lose, the city is done for."

It Was a shift a distortion in morals.

Even if captured Index lost her life now,
would it be caught up in this bizarre scenery and converted into something that was considered "for the best"?

If so, Kamijou had to settle this before that
happened.

He had to draw on everything he had and
face Alice.

He understood what had to be done.

"But...

Misaka Mikoto had died. ******** ****** had died too. (..? Why did I think there was
someone else there?)

2. She has the power to make any theory that has ever been proposed a reality
He had never imagined the day would come when the word "god" had any relevance to the real world.

Both as a reliable ally.

And as a very real threat

"Basically, Alice is an extraordinary being
who can build a bridge between reality and
any proposed theory or concept, no matter
how inaccurate or contradictory it might be.

It could be the geocentric model, phlogiston, conspiracy theories about the moon landing being fake, that the Y2K problem would cause the world's computers to run wild and destroy the world, that neutrinos travel faster than light, or anything else. The Anotherbible provides freedom on a level far behind even the framework of magic. It might be faster to just say there is effectively nothing she can't do."

The 15cm eyepatch girl, who existed here
like normal, sighed with exasperation and
looked to the school once more

"But despite all that, Alice decided this was
the best shape for this place. That shows a
fixation, doesn't it? It implies that using her
all-powerful crafting to alter even a single
side path or building corner would cause
her to lose all interest in the place."

"But whatever shape it takes, this is already
Alice's castle. Human, this world will not be
kind to you"

3. At least High 1-C rating: Alice can control the world on the same level as what Othinus did as a full powered Magic God.
Kamijou thanked it and tackled his shoulder into the glass entranceway door.

It broke shockingly easily

Unable to stop his momentum, he tumbled
inside, where the world changed yet again

The change wasn't visible.

But all sound from outside was shut out.

The dark school building was so silent his
ears ached. He had shattered the glass in
the entrance door, but he doubted he could
have returned to the visible schoolyard if he
tried. He had a feeling he would be deflected or thrown back. Not that he had any interest in testing this theory.

The presence of Imagine Breaker suddenly
felt a lot less significant

It was a reference point for the world.

And so it could negate any and all illusions.

But that meant it had no effect on anything
that could distort even that reference point.

For example, his right hand hadn't been able to destroy the infinite worlds created by Othinus.

Alice could absorb the world to that extent.

She simply hadn't done so before now,

'What...is this place?"

Everything looked normal, but that was no
reason to relax

Kamijou felt like something was lurking on
the other side of an invisible barrier.

4. Her ability doesn't care whether a proposed theory is logical or makes any sense at all. As long it's been proposed at any point in history, Alice can make it a reality. Due to its NLF nature, it's probably best to simply add a likely/possibly (far?) higher to her rating.
Like Nostradamus, astrology, a dream that
comes true, letting a spirit possess you to
answer questions, or having an aquarium
octopus predict the results of soccer
matches.

It didn't really matter what.

It could be scientific or not and it could even violate the rules of magic. If the theory had been proposed at any time throughout history, Alice could build the bridge to make it real. Once a ridiculous theory began to operate, she could toy with it until it was hers.

It may have been less concerning if she had said she simply knew it to be true with no reason behind it. Because no matter how often someone's intuition was correct, it could always be wrong

But that excuse didn't exist here

The logic behind it was nonsensical, but it
did exist.

If Alice said it would happen, then it was
guaranteed to happen.

Why had he let himself relax?

She had never said a single word about
what hour, minute, second, or rotation of the Earth it would happen on

Now was still an available option.

Alice's prophecy was not over yet. The
predetermined outcome was still coming

Was it even possible?

Had it been definitively proven, or was it
only a theory?

Alice didn't care about that.

It could be the geocentric theory, phlogiston, an ancient nuclear war, or that dinosaur farts caused the ice age. Of course, it could also be something accurate like universal gravitation or quantum theory. Accurate or not, if a theory had ever been proposed - if someone had thought it up and put together the logic behind it - she could build a bridge to it.

She could choose whichever theories
she wanted and link to them to wholly
change the world. She was the ultimate
conversion device. She could place Yamatai anywhere she liked, she could invent a perpetual motion machine of the first kind to produce unlimited energy, or she could remake the spherical Earth into a flat disk.

So there just had to be a single section in
the more than 10 thousand grimoires

Just one passage

Even a single line would do.

No matter how absurd or difficult to achieve it was

Alice could easily activate it and save
Kamijou.

But.

Even then.

Index did not give a yes or no answer

She kept her silence

5. A limitation of hers; she needs to physically move to take an action.
"But Alice Anotherbible has had her
baseline purity forcibly increased, so each
and every one of her actions is pure without going through that process.'

"We should consider ourselves fortunate,
said H.T. Trismegistus

That was the gloomy young butler's
assessment.

Because..

"We are in fact incredibly fortunate that
Alice cannot kill her enemies with a thought or set the world in motion to kill her enemies if she wills it. This tells us she must take a physical action to trigger her attacks

Common sense says we are lucky indeed."

But that also meant this wasn't limited to
her scratching claws

6. Infinite speed when 'Walking': Alice can appear wherever she wills instantly, no matter the distance, and seemingly in no time.
She took a step

Just one.

"Touma, she's coming!!"

"!!!???"

He understood that, but he couldn't restrain his reflexes as a living being. Crossing his arms in front of his face was a definite mistake.

The sweet scent of tea filled the boy's nose

Something was overpowering the library's old paper smell.

Alice Anotherbible already stood behind Kamijou.

Walking

In other words, she took action to move to her desired location.

She had not formed a special shape with her fingers, nor had she stepped in a a complex pattern.

She had taken the same action anyone could.

She was blessed with a special result without having to focus on it.

The meaning extracted from her ordinary actions was just too pure!?

"Ali-!?"

She was already right there

7. Intangibility: Alice can avoid any attack simply by intending/moving to do so.
Kamijou spun around and swung his right hand back in something like a backhand blow.

But it found only air.

The grown woman pressed her four limbs down against the floor like an animal and lowered her head as far as it would go

Crawling

She had moved to his blind spot and then his last-second counterattack had missed. What this meant squeezed at his heart. He might as well have offered her the perfect chance to attack him.

The young butler did not hesitate to move.

Light flashed from his right hand as the blade hidden in his cane turned to light and sliced through the floor. The strange slash had an effect well beyond the length of the sword. And it struck right were crawling Alice's lowered head was. It definitely hit. Except the metal blade passed right
through her. Like she was intangible.

A specific meaning had been extracted from her ordinary action: evasion.

"It doesn't matter if you hit her or not!?" hatefully spat Othinus.

As long as the adult woman moved to dodge, no external damage could affect her. Even if she took a direct hit from a nuclear missile. Alice showed no interest in H.T. Trismegistus even with his attempted decapitation of her. Still crawling, she raised her head and casually extended her hand toward Kamijou

"I was right."

Apparently the young butler's attack had been to check something

He had ended up cutting through the floor below Alice instead of her, so it fell.

That had been his intent from the beginning

He had intentionally destroyed the floor so he could gather more information and survive.

8. Spatial Manipulation?: Alice can stop all movement of a target she chooses, isolating them from outside interference.
Alice grabbed her long hair as a single mass.

And she swung her head around.

In a move straight out of kabuki, the thick bundle of hair drew a large circle in the air, which narrowed down as soon as the crimson flames passed through it.

The orange flames stopped in midair.

Binding.

In other words, stopping all movement of a
target. And separating the target out from all possible interference.

"Tch!"

The Pneuma-less Shell was Anna's spiritual item but what weapon she acquired was a matter of chance. She wouldn't receive the same weapon if she tried again.

9. Already listed on her profile, but just as further proof, I guess. Time manipulation: She routinely kept stopping time during the fight.
She arrived straight up in front of him with a flowing motion

By the time his eyes had finally caught up, Alice's fingers - and their sharp claws - were extending lithely toward his throat

Time stopped. He tried to swing his head to the side and dodge, but his body couldn't keep up.

He couldn't die yet

He might die, but it couldn't be now.

He thought that so hard it seemed to burn into his mind. After all, the girl who had forgotten how to cry and instead howled like an animal was right there in front of him. He couldn't die until he had saved her.

Light pierced sharply in from the side.

Time resumed flowing

10. Not sure what to index this as. Perception Manipulation?: She can make every attack miss her by confusing every eye on her and bringing them under her spell.
A sharp voice rang through the broken faculty room. Aradia held out her palm and launched a scattershot of light to keep Alice back. Each shot moved like a sea snake as they tore through the air and targeted adult Alice from multiple angles.

The storybook girl said nothing

She didn't even look Aradia's way

She only extended a finger and rotated it once clockwise.

Like some kind of joke, all of the glowing
projectiles veered away from the fully-grown woman, blasting through walls and pillars instead.

Cursing.

That one childish action easily confused every eye on her, bringing them under her spell.

"Kh."

Aradia didn't even have time to gasp in shock

Alice really didn't look her way the entire time.

She simply changed the arrangement of her casually extended fingers. She curled up her middle finger and held it down with her thumb like she was preparing to flick something.

11. A form of Biological Manipulation combined with Weapon Creation?: Alice can turn anything into a weapon, be it an object or a living being, by simply grabbing it:
With a single hand, Alice casually grabbed the beaten-up Gryphon to use it as a weapon.

As if it were a giant club

Grabbing

The act of denying an object its own will and applying her own will to it by unilaterally wielding it for its offensive or defensive functionality

Anna could compete with Alice on her own, but that changed if Alice boosted her strength with something else.

That is, if Alice turned someone else into a
weapon.

That absurdly powerful magic could boost her stats by forcibly equipping herself with
something else: a sword, a shumai, a goddess—
anything.

(Is that a superior version of Mut Thebes's ability to absorb the shadow of any weapon!?)

Anna groaned and tried to raise her golden staff.

But Alice was again faster.

Alice was always a step ahead. To an unnatural degree.

She grabbed H.T. Trismegistus's wrist as he tried to attack her from the side. She turned him into a weapon, equipped that weapon, and swung it artlessly to the side.

A direct hit.

A dull impact rang loud.

In this case, taking Anna's side had been a
mistake.

Or maybe he had been thwarted by Alice's
tailwind.

That magic stole power from external sources. If H.T. Trismegistus had remained no more than one of Alice's toys, he couldn't have provided more power on top of her own.

The little villain struggled to breathe and a red clump splattered from the corner of her mouth.

The equilibrium was broken.

Despite dropping her golden cross staff, Anna clenched her teeth and stepped forward.

Another impact sounded.

12. Homing Attack: Alice can pinpoint the exact location of her target, making her attack a guaranteed hit.
Kamijou thought that came from something other than her intense emotion.

Then Alice made her next move.

Smelling

She sniffed out her target's precise location

Which meant her next move was guaranteed to hit, no matter how poorly aimed it was.

Once again, Alice swung H.T. Trismegistus
around with a single hand and struck Anna's little body with her boosted attack. The force of the blow caused the gloomy young butler to slip from Alice's grasp. No, his right wrist shattered like pottery. Only his hand remained in the grown woman's hand.

This wasn't like a home run in baseball or a strike in bowling

The two of them were knocked away with a
strange sound.

Neither one cried out.

Kamijou didn't even want to think about how much damage that had done to Anna.

13. Another weakness of her's; she can only use one of these special abilities of hers at a time, and not multiple at the same time:
Alice could extract miracles much like the
Pneuma-less Shell but without relying on any tools.

That knowledge came from Anna Sprengel

However.

'So why don't you just keep on 'crawling' while you attack? Then you could remain untouchable the entire time you send your unfair attacks our way."

"Since you aren't doing that, I can only assume you're limited to using one miracle at a time. For example, your 'crawling' causes any attacks to pass right through you, but it also keeps you from laying a finger on us, so you can never actually end the fight that way, can you? Your 'walking" and 'cursing' are the same. Your miracles are isolated things - they can't be combined or used in parallel!. Which means l've found your weakness, Alice Anotherbible. I don't know how tough you are, but you can't make yourself untouchable while you attack. The damage will reach you then!!"

14. Regeneration & Immortality: She can heal herself and bring herself back to life just by willing it. The novel reiterates that death is essentially meaningless to her.
Don't you get it? They're still here fighting alongside me."

"Then the girl will heal herself."

That was all Alice said.

She was so powerful she had never had a chance to experience defeat and so didn't worry too much about who won an individual battle. She didn't fear the possibility of being beaten and dying.

If she did ultimately bury the enemy who stood in her way, it was no skin off her nose if she died once or twice first.

Because...

'Have you forgotten, teacher? The girl already had her head crushed by someone calling himself Rosencreutz. And yet here she is as good as new. So it doesn't matter to the girl even if you do manage to kill her in exchange for severe damage on your part. The girl just has to resurrect herself a billion or even a trillion times if necessary and wait for you to finally wear yourself out"

If his arm was torn off, that thing would emerge.

He had proven that when he severed the arm himself to summon it against Rosencreutz

That would work if he was only interested in defeating her.

That thing may have been the only remaining mystery in this world that rivaled Alice.

But Kamijou had made a decision back then.

He had made up his mind.

He would never use that thing again. Never
against another person. Plus, a little thing like death wouldn't be enough to stop Alice!!

He took the full brunt of the attack as payment

15. Fate Manipulation/Probability Manipulation: She can seemingly protect those "on her side" by passively protecting them from taking any damage and ensuring their attacks always hit, even when they purposely try to miss.
“You didn’t find it remotely odd? We’re all regular Transcendents here. A clash between our two groups shouldn’t end so easily. Yet you’re being easily defeated in a one-sided game. Is it a bad matchup between the individual Transcendents? Do our spells combine so well it’s like we were dealt a royal flush? No, that could never happen.”

“…”

“No one can defeat Alice Anotherbible.”

For this alone, she took on a respectful tone.

Almost like she was reading off the handwritten creed only she believed in.

Blodeuwedd the Bouquet thought only of her own blessings as she spoke euphorically.

“You underestimated the meaning of that statement. And that optimism has brought you certain death. It doesn’t just mean you won’t survive a direct physical fight against Alice. There’s no getting around it. We control all of the coincidences and all of our baseless hunches and inspirations will work out in our favor. We have the trends of the world on our side. That is what it means to ‘resonate’ with Alice and take the winning side. To be clear, we are only firing blindly from the hip. You’re the ones ensuring we hit you.”

Vidhatri.

2nd Saga.

And Blodeuwedd the Bouquet.

The Bologna Succubus’s side was being worn down, but all three of them were unharmed. She had gotten a few clean hits in on them, so had they managed to shrug off the damage?

And she was slipping past their expectations and landing an attack they failed to dodge or defend against, so it made no sense for them to be changing their stance to reduce the damage with 100% accuracy.

That wasn’t their individual abilities.

It was their “resonance” with Alice Anotherbible.

“Defying her means death. You had lost from the moment you bet on there being an exception to that, like that you could move beyond her reach, hide where she couldn’t find you, or escape punishment if your defiance was indirect. Not that she would let you get away with this even if you had been correct.”

“How are you on Alice’s side when you only love yourself?”

16. Alice has all the abilities of the Transcendents, but significantly stronger:
“If Alice wanted, she could have changed the world you see before you in any way she liked,” said War God Othinus from his shoulder. “The consulate in District 12 is a good example of that.”

“I thought the other Transcendents made that.”

“You need to assume Alice can do anything the regular Transcendents can. In fact, her version is probably the original.”

“What do you mean by that?”

“Did you really think the Bridge Builders Cabal members created that divine cosplay spell all on their own without any hints to work off of? Remember, these are the people who abandoned their magic names and relied on someone else because they knew they could never achieve their goals themselves. …You can think of the regular Transcendents as custom products created by taking the open-source Alice Anotherbible and tweaking the details to fit their preferences. Where Alice came from, I couldn’t tell you.”

Othinus spoke harshly, but she was that way about everyone on Earth.

In fact…

“Hm? I don’t sense much scorn in your voice there, god.”

“Because I have no real reason to feel scornful,” readily replied the real god.

This wasn’t about what was correct. They simply used different methods. She spoke like a living national treasure of a dancer appreciating the younger people in a phone video who were simply enjoying moving their bodies.

Apparently that was analogous to the one-eyed girl who had gathered faith and polished her skills until she became known as a god and the Transcendents who had chosen various gods and dressed up as them.

P.S. There's other stuff like Death Manipulation (via essentially sentencing Touma to death), some kind Information Analysis (she was exposing JVA's identity and history as she was tearing him to pieces). There's probably more, but this is everything I have saved for now.
 
XDragnoir said:
Fair enough.

Also, you were talking about resistances before, I asked some friends of mine some time ago and they said Alice's statements of being resistant to all kinds of internal damage could actually be expanded upon.

That would be really good given the verse has characters like Accel, Coronzon, the Kiharas and idk how many others with different types of internal damage.
Click to expand...

Despite being defenseless and killed by CRC, Alice was able to revive herself using Wonderland. The only thing that could completely kill her was Othinus' Phase Manipulation.
In this case, what kind of feats can Phase Manipulation achieve?
 
Accel0305 said:
There's other stuff like Death Manipulation (via essentially sentencing Touma to death)
Click to expand...
Didn't the volume say/imply this was more of a case of her knowing what would happen rather than causing it herself? Indeed, it's was referred to as a prophecy the entire volume, iirc, not really a curse or any kind of direct action.

Piamma said:
Despite being defenseless and killed by CRC, Alice was able to revive herself using Wonderland. The only thing that could completely kill her was Othinus' Phase Manipulation.
In this case, what kind of feats can Phase Manipulation achieve?
Click to expand...
I am not sure if I got your question perfectly, but this doesn't really give anything new to Phase Manipulation.

Alice's immortality was, effectively speaking, only shown to be a mix of type 4 and type 3 (mid regen), so Othinus and other MGs get nothing from killing her (damn, Kakine and Gabriel both have way better feats, neither were able to survive Othinus for obvious reasons).
 
XDragnoir said:
Didn't the volume say/imply this was more of a case of her knowing what would happen rather than causing it herself? Indeed, it's was referred to as a prophecy the entire volume, iirc, not really a curse or any kind of direct action.
Click to expand...
Nah. The LN heavily implied that it was her "suggestion" that caused it.

It didn’t really matter what.

It could be scientific or not and it could even violate the rules of magic. If the theory had been proposed at any time throughout history, Alice could build the bridge to make it real. Once a ridiculous theory began to operate, she could toy with it until it was hers.

It may have been less concerning if she had said she simply knew it to be true with no reason behind it. Because no matter how often someone’s intuition was correct, it could always be wrong.

But that excuse didn’t exist here.

The logic behind it was nonsensical, but it did exist.

If Alice said it would happen, then it was guaranteed to happen.

Why had he let himself relax?

She had never said a single word about what hour, minute, second, or rotation of the Earth it would happen on.

Now was still an available option.

Alice’s prophecy was not over yet. The predetermined outcome was still coming.

“…”

Then there was nothing more he could do.

Struggle all he wanted, he couldn’t recover from taking the wrong turn so long ago.

Kamijou Touma’s life had been over from the day he first met Alice.

Their difference in power was just that great.

Of course, Alice hadn’t intended to harm him.

He had chosen it himself. She had warned him not to, but he hadn’t believed in the absoluteness of her prophecy, he hadn’t given much thought at all to his own life, and he had simply assumed everything would work out the way it always did. Even though things were different this time. If he had known then how extraordinary Alice was, he never would have seen it that way.

But a choice was a choice.

He had already used up his one and only ticket.

He had walked through the crossroads, so there was no way left to avoid his predetermined death.
Click to expand...

Did you think that statement didn’t mean much?

It meant more than anything.

Alice Anotherbible’s power is absolute. That does not apply only to direct violence.
Click to expand...

As you can see here, if she hadn't suggested him dying, he wouldn't really have died. Plus the nature of his death wasn't exactly natural or of him succumbing to his injuries, lending more credence to the idea that she's the one who caused it. If it was merely a prediction, then his death would've had a cause, but it didn't. He was dying even before fighting her.
 
Last edited:
Acertainbcplayer said:
Could we give this a possibly low 1-A (or is it High 1-B?) via quantum theory?
Click to expand...

The types of quantum theories that have appeared in Toaru so far are as follows.

Virtual On Nevel: Many-worlds interpretation + Confirmation of the existence of the real-life person von Neumann (Extension to Hilbert space)
OT3: Copenhagen interpretation (The part where Komoe explains the principle itself to Index)
NT18, OT18: Euclidean geometry theory (Aleister's windowless building, curtana)

Since Alice's manipulation encompasses the entire quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, it is believed to be sufficiently expandable.
Similarly, full power Mgs's phase manipulation, which has been explicitly mentioned as being on the "same level", is also expandable.
 
Accel0305 said:
Here's all the major feats that I've compiled for Alice from GT-10:

1. Social Influencing/Mind Manipulation: She has insane passive social influencing bordering on mental manipulation.
"Hm? Oh, you mean Kotatsu Syndrome?"
If he was being honest, he had completely
forgotten. He had assumed that had just
gone away once New Board Chairman
Accelerator declared martial law

That strange form of group psychology led
people to passively protest their entrance
exams and the new school term by lazing
around instead.

It led people to shortsightedly seek peace
and comfort without worrying about the
later consequences

"Let's head outside" was all Othinus said. "It
may not be visible from here, but you will
see soon enough."

Skeptical, Kamijou walked to the hospital
exit after his release process was complete.

The glass door was partially soundproofed.
probably to make life in the hospital more
comfortable for the patients

Something was exploding outside

At first, Kamijou had no idea what it was

He really did think something was exploding in the distance.

But when he listened more closely, he
realized it was an amalgam of voices.

"I'm sick of this martial law! You can't tell me what to do anymore-

"They're keeping down the little guy. as
usual!"

"Flip them!! Flip all those armored
monstrosities!"

Was that a wave of people? Were those
strange voices and noises being made by
human beings?

"I already saw it all on the way here."

Maybe the hospital was so busy because
people were claiming to feel sick and hiding out there for safety.

"It probably began with the melancholy
caused by winter break ending and the new
school term beginning," quietly explained
Othinus. "Then the new Board Chairman
declared martial law and banned them from leaving their homes, so their frustrations grew as their vacation passed them by under those restrictions. When Alice Anotherbible's return triggered a resurgence of Kotatsu Syndrome, it pushed all the city's residents' minds in the opposite direction".

This is entirely different from the gentle
social phenomenon built on escapism. I get the sense that, whether it will help them or hurt them, they will yell at and physically attack anyone who tries to boss them around."

This wasn't Kamijou's first time seeing a
city-wide riot.

For example, he had seen Academy City
during the Christmas season when Anna
Sprengel had arranged the rise of R&C
Occultics.

For example, he had seen Shibuya on
December 31 flooded with the youths
influenced by the Transcendents Aradia and the Bologna Succubus.

But this was different from those.

When it was caused by Alice Anotherbible
the nature of the riot changed.

"It's beginning"

"Acute Kotatsu Syndrome is a very different
threat from CRC, who was the ultimate
individual. This is a new trend- a countdown toward destruction by a group. If nothing is done about Alice, Academy City will be brought down by internal violence.

Maybe it could be stopped by a military
force, but that would require Anti-Skill, or
whoever else, to fire live ammunition on the
people of the city."

Othinus stared into the distance

She was more bothered by the moral
collapse than by the actual destruction.

"These people treating Academy City like
their own secret base will bring down the
city. And the world economy supported by
science will go down with it. They can't
suppress this with force like they do with
demonstrations. Not when it's backed by
Alice's charisma. This is being fueled from
the outside. Aiming a gun at these students
will not stop them, nor will actually firing on
them. So like I said, the only way to stop this is to slaughter every last Academy City
resident with Academy City's guns. Win or
lose, the city is done for."

It Was a shift a distortion in morals.

Even if captured Index lost her life now,
would it be caught up in this bizarre scenery and converted into something that was considered "for the best"?

If so, Kamijou had to settle this before that
happened.

He had to draw on everything he had and
face Alice.

He understood what had to be done.

"But...

Misaka Mikoto had died. ******** ****** had died too. (..? Why did I think there was
someone else there?)

3. At least High 1-C rating: Alice can control the world on the same level as what Othinus did as a full powered Magic God.
Kamijou thanked it and tackled his shoulder into the glass entranceway door.

It broke shockingly easily

Unable to stop his momentum, he tumbled
inside, where the world changed yet again

The change wasn't visible.

But all sound from outside was shut out.

The dark school building was so silent his
ears ached. He had shattered the glass in
the entrance door, but he doubted he could
have returned to the visible schoolyard if he
tried. He had a feeling he would be deflected or thrown back. Not that he had any interest in testing this theory.

The presence of Imagine Breaker suddenly
felt a lot less significant

It was a reference point for the world.

And so it could negate any and all illusions.

But that meant it had no effect on anything
that could distort even that reference point.

For example, his right hand hadn't been able to destroy the infinite worlds created by Othinus.

Alice could absorb the world to that extent.

She simply hadn't done so before now,

'What...is this place?"

Everything looked normal, but that was no
reason to relax

Kamijou felt like something was lurking on
the other side of an invisible barrier.

4. Her ability doesn't care whether a proposed theory is logical or makes any sense at all. As long it's been proposed at any point in history, Alice can make it a reality. Due to its NLF nature, it's probably best to simply add a likely/possibly (far?) higher to her rating.
Like Nostradamus, astrology, a dream that
comes true, letting a spirit possess you to
answer questions, or having an aquarium
octopus predict the results of soccer
matches.

It didn't really matter what.

It could be scientific or not and it could even violate the rules of magic. If the theory had been proposed at any time throughout history, Alice could build the bridge to make it real. Once a ridiculous theory began to operate, she could toy with it until it was hers.

It may have been less concerning if she had said she simply knew it to be true with no reason behind it. Because no matter how often someone's intuition was correct, it could always be wrong

But that excuse didn't exist here

The logic behind it was nonsensical, but it
did exist.

If Alice said it would happen, then it was
guaranteed to happen.

Why had he let himself relax?

She had never said a single word about
what hour, minute, second, or rotation of the Earth it would happen on

Now was still an available option.

Alice's prophecy was not over yet. The
predetermined outcome was still coming

Was it even possible?

Had it been definitively proven, or was it
only a theory?

Alice didn't care about that.

It could be the geocentric theory, phlogiston, an ancient nuclear war, or that dinosaur farts caused the ice age. Of course, it could also be something accurate like universal gravitation or quantum theory. Accurate or not, if a theory had ever been proposed - if someone had thought it up and put together the logic behind it - she could build a bridge to it.

She could choose whichever theories
she wanted and link to them to wholly
change the world. She was the ultimate
conversion device. She could place Yamatai anywhere she liked, she could invent a perpetual motion machine of the first kind to produce unlimited energy, or she could remake the spherical Earth into a flat disk.

So there just had to be a single section in
the more than 10 thousand grimoires

Just one passage

Even a single line would do.

No matter how absurd or difficult to achieve it was

Alice could easily activate it and save
Kamijou.

But.

Even then.

Index did not give a yes or no answer

She kept her silence
Click to expand...

Could we give her a possibly Low 1-A (or is it High 1-B?) via quantum theory? And if so the Magic Gods should also have that?
If not, could the Magic Gods and Alice at least get a Possibly far higher rating?
Wait, he already replied to my deleted post...
 
Piamma said:
The types of quantum theories that have appeared in Toaru so far are as follows.

Virtual On Nevel: Many-worlds interpretation + Confirmation of the existence of the real-life person von Neumann (Extension to Hilbert space)
OT3: Copenhagen interpretation (The part where Komoe explains the principle itself to Index)
NT18, OT18: Euclidean geometry theory (Aleister's windowless building, curtana)

Since Alice's manipulation encompasses the entire quantum theory, including quantum mechanics, it is believed to be sufficiently expandable.
Similarly, full power Mgs's phase manipulation, which has been explicitly mentioned as being on the "same level", is also expandable.
Click to expand...
So are we getting the possibly Low 1-A (or is it High 1-B? Again), or jump right to Low 1-A (or is it blah blah) rating and skip all the hassle?
Or are we still stucking at High 1-C or a possibly way higher rating?
 
Acertainbcplayer said:
Could we give her a possibly Low 1-A (or is it High 1-B?) via quantum theory? And if so the Magic Gods should also have that?
If not, could the Magic Gods and Alice at least get a Possibly far higher rating?
Wait, he already replied to my deleted post...
Click to expand...

As far as I know, the reason Toaru has not been recognized for dimensions higher than the 11th dimension is simply because it has not been proven whether dimensions above the 11th dimension exist in the worldview.
However, we have now obtained the power to directly apply any theory to the world, regardless of its truth or falsity, as long as it exists
Now, there seems to be no reason why it should not be expanded.

at least h1-b?
I don't actually know much about higher dimensions in great detail.
I only know that Hilbert space is infinite-dimensional and that it can be used to obtain at least H1B.
 
Acertainbcplayer said:
Could we give her a possibly Low 1-A (or is it High 1-B?) via quantum theory? And if so the Magic Gods should also have that?
If not, could the Magic Gods and Alice at least get a Possibly far higher rating?
Wait, he already replied to my deleted post...
Click to expand...
Idk if just the mention of quantum theory would be enough for that kind of upgrade, without further elaboration. The quantum theory statement itself is kinda vague, and doesn't go into much detail, as quantum theory is a very broad terminology, and could refer to anything from electromagnetism to theories concerning the uncertainty principle.

I think it would be safest to go with At least High 1-C, likely/possibly far higher.

Her ability does leave the door open for many future upgrades though. All that would be required essentially, is a description or even a mention of theories that go higher than 11-D.
 
Accel0305 said:
Idk if just the mention of quantum theory would be enough for that kind of upgrade, without further elaboration. The quantum theory statement itself is kinda vague, and doesn't go into much detail, as quantum theory is a very broad terminology, and could refer to anything from electromagnetism to theories concerning the uncertainty principle.

I think it would be safest to go with At least High 1-C, likely/possibly far higher.

Her ability does leave the door open for many future upgrades though. All that would be required essentially, is a description or even a mention of theories that go higher than 11-D.
Click to expand...
But in this case, it's von Neumann and Hilbert space itself, directly mentioned to be in the verse, so I'd say it's reasonable for a Low1A rating
 
Acertainbcplayer said:
But in this case, it's von Neumann and Hilbert space itself, directly mentioned to be in the verse, so I'd say it's reasonable for a Low1A rating
Click to expand...

Hilbert space was not directly specified.
It's just that von Neumann, who advocated for it, actually exists, and in discussing the many-worlds interpretation and the Copenhagen interpretation as interpretations of Schrödinger's cat, it is almost certain to exist because it would be difficult to discuss them without it.
 
Piamma said:
As far as I know, the reason Toaru has not been recognized for dimensions higher than the 11th dimension is simply because it has not been proven whether dimensions above the 11th dimension exist in the worldview.
However, we have now obtained the power to directly apply any theory to the world, regardless of its truth or falsity, as long as it exists
Now, there seems to be no reason why it should not be expanded.

at least h1-b?
I don't actually know much about higher dimensions in great detail.
I only know that Hilbert space is infinite-dimensional and that it can be used to obtain at least H1B.
Click to expand...
Someone said it could go low Outer since all whole numbers are uncountably infinite, also Phases do stacks right? Does that upgrade the rating or not? Well I guess I'll leave the Phases matter for GT11 in case of further explanation.
 
Accel0305 said:
Idk if just the mention of quantum theory would be enough for that kind of upgrade, without further elaboration. The quantum theory statement itself is kinda vague, and doesn't go into much detail, as quantum theory is a very broad terminology, and could refer to anything from electromagnetism to theories concerning the uncertainty principle.

I think it would be safest to go with At least High 1-C, likely/possibly far higher.

Her ability does leave the door open for many future upgrades though. All that would be required essentially, is a description or even a mention of theories that go higher than 11-D.
Click to expand...

Doesn't this site already have a being who obtained the H1A tier just from the words of a mere magician who claims to transcend all dimensional theories?
It doesn't seem like there would be any problem with Toaru either.
 
Acertainbcplayer said:
But in this case, it's von Neumann and Hilbert space itself, directly mentioned to be in the verse, so I'd say it's reasonable for a Low1A rating
Click to expand...
I don't remember von Neumann and Hilbert space being directly mentioned in Toaru tbh. The Copenhagen Interpretation sure. I suppose a connection can be made as the Copenhagen Interpretation and Hilbert Space are intrinsically linked. It'd have to put to the vote in a CRT in the end. I'll pitch the idea and the connection (in the CRT), and see if it's accepted.
 
Accel0305 said:
I don't remember von Neumann and Hilbert space being directly mentioned in Toaru tbh. The Copenhagen Interpretation sure. I suppose a connection can be made as the Copenhagen Interpretation and Hilbert Space are intrinsically linked. It'd have to put to the vote in a CRT in the end. I'll pitch the idea and the connection (in the CRT), and see if it's accepted.
Click to expand...
Von Neumann's existence is directly mentioned in the toaru Virtual On novel.
I can provide the original text for that right away.
 
Accel0305 said:
I don't remember von Neumann and Hilbert space being directly mentioned in Toaru tbh. The Copenhagen Interpretation sure. I suppose a connection can be made as the Copenhagen Interpretation and Hilbert Space are intrinsically linked. It'd have to put to the vote in a CRT in the end. I'll pitch the idea and the connection (in the CRT), and see if it's accepted.
Click to expand...
I guess I can only hope...
 
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