Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Piamma]

That's for Kamisato's quote, I was asking about what Nephthys said right before Kamisato starts talking.

@Piamma could you give the raw text for their entire conversation?


It straight up says they were not able to leave the world, which is what matters here, meanwhile your translation has Kamisato saying it is a straight line.

Again, not like this changes anything here in VSBW, cause the MGs are already above tier 2, but still.


All of them are a matter of interpretation, no? At least, I didn't understand where was the translation error in points 2 and 4.

That said, I completely agree with what you said on points 2 and 5, not so much on point 4 (opposing still means that Dainsleif is on a similar level, doesn't matter if it can defeat Othinus or not).

What about point 3 tho?

Yoshino: “With the start of the New Testament and the introduction of more characters, things have gradually been inflating (laughs). As one of the people finding this more and more interesting, I also really liked the fast pace up to the Russia arc, so I’m excited about what we can do this time.”

Kamachi: “Since the topic of inflation has come up, let me just say that the way Saints are depicted and handled changed drastically before and after the start of the New Testament. In the old series, the presence of Angels was a major factor, but in the New Testament, MagicGods—beings that exist in the realm of gods—appear, effectively raising things one step higher.”

Regarding point 3: When the third season of the anime came out, Kamachi personally explained why the treatment and depiction of Saints changed in the New Testament. Up through the Old Testament volumes, Angels were the primary focus, but with the New Testament, MagicGods—existences in the realm of gods—were introduced, causing one step of “inflation.” Kamachi explicitly used the terms “inflation” and “level,” clarifying that MagicGods rank higher than Angels.



The full interview can be found at this link : https://blog.naver.com/tw2psh/221338505552?photoView=2

 

[Piamma]

That's for Kamisato's quote, I was asking about what Nephthys said right before Kamisato starts talking.

@Piamma could you give the raw text for their entire conversation?

sure.


You seem to have interpreted that line as referring to parallel worlds being impossible. But the context before and after are completely separate. Nephthys was about to explain parallel worlds when Kamisato cut her off.

The phrase ‘it’s impossible, there’s no way’ actually refers to the ‘new World’ Kamisato mentioned earlier—that’s what he’s calling impossible.

After that, Kamisato explains that the MagicGods investigated the entire universe and all the phases, yet still couldn’t find this new World, which is why they longed for it.

PS: I’ve arbitrarily been translating 新天地 as ‘New world,’ but I’m not sure how js06 rendered it in their English translation.

 

[Piamma]

That's for Kamisato's quote, I was asking about what Nephthys said right before Kamisato starts talking.

@Piamma could you give the raw text for their entire conversation?


It straight up says they were not able to leave the world, which is what matters here, meanwhile your translation has Kamisato saying it is a straight line.

Again, not like this changes anything here in VSBW, cause the MGs are already above tier 2, but still.


All of them are a matter of interpretation, no? At least, I didn't understand where was the translation error in points 2 and 4.

That said, I completely agree with what you said on points 2 and 5, not so much on point 4 (opposing still means that Dainsleif is on a similar level, doesn't matter if it can defeat Othinus or not).

What about point 3 tho?

Regarding point 2: when I mentioned there was a translation error, I was referring to how some people interpret the text as though the transcendent beings actually survived—based solely on the “if” in the story. However, for that “if” to hold, those transcendent beings would have had to endure the phase manipulation and even survive the Black Labyrinth. Since that underlying premise itself is not possible, the argument becomes meaningless.

As for point 4, I’m not denying Marianne’s ability to destroy the world. Even if she does possess such power at full strength, she still wouldn’t be able to stand against Othinus. In other words, you’re correct that this doesn’t change any existing power-scaling.

 

[XDragnoir]

PS: I’ve arbitrarily been translating 新天地 as ‘New world,’ but I’m not sure how js06 rendered it in their English translation.

It was translated as New World, yes.

Regarding point 2: when I mentioned there was a translation error, I was referring to how some people interpret the text as though the transcendent beings actually survived—based solely on the “if” in the story. However, for that “if” to hold, those transcendent beings would have had to endure the phase manipulation and even survive the Black Labyrinth. Since that underlying premise itself is not possible, the argument becomes meaningless.

Got it, thanks.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Salome is done. Kakeru is also done. Sorta. I just need to get a couple more scans for his intel section, but otherwise he's 100% complete.

Yay for progress~

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Eh, as the H1B thread is quite meh at this point (I don't think it will go anywhere tbh, if it does, whatever), I'm making a 1B one instead, this time focusing solely on Phasic beings and most importantly, Magic Gods and argue with actual scans. I'm only doing this because I think we're heavily underestimating how higher form of existences or power actually transcends the Physical World as they should.

Thread 'The complete review for 1B Toaru'

Dec 24, 2024

Purpose
This Thread is made to do a slight Revision on Toaru, to try get it to 1B.

I'll be focused on the Magic Gods and other higher form of existence and why they'd suffice for at least 1B. First, let's talk about the Physical Universe. The Physical Universe is the Universe where nearly all events happens in Index, it is the "world" that all the other Phases stacks upon. Now, we've agreed that the Physical Universe is 11D via teleporters, how their abilities works and Curtana proving the existence of higher dimensions. Anyways, to the Magic Gods:...

• Acertainbcplayer
• toaru
• Replies: 4
• Forum: Content Revision

Also, are we doing an overhaul for higher form beings or something like that?

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, are we doing an overhaul for higher form beings or something like that?

I am thinking about doing that.

So far the shared abilities would be Acausality 4, limited cosmic awareness (or something similar, I am still not sure who would get this and how to word it) and resistance to soul and mind hax (magic god level resistances, btw).

As I said in another post, any ideas or quotes y'all have in mind on this subject are welcome.

 

[Aseka]

So far the shared abilities would be Acausality 4

In this regard, I think we should scale Magic God's being capable of affecting Acausal beings if it's true, because they can use Phase Manipulation as they want it, and as such contains a different law of causality.

 

[XDragnoir]

Given what Piamma said in regards to angels and MGs, do y'all think this scaling is accurate?

Secret Chiefs > Transcendents ~ MGs > Phasic Beings

If not, what would y'all change and where should de Experts be placed there? (Keep in mind this is mostly looking at the "classes" rather than specific characters).

 

[Piamma]

Given what Piamma said in regards to angels and MGs, do y'all think this scaling is accurate?

Secret Chiefs > Transcendents ~ MGs > Phasic Beings

If not, what would y'all change and where should de Experts be placed there? (Keep in mind this is mostly looking at the "classes" rather than specific characters).

The Secret Chiefs are ranked too high;
they don’t deserve that spot.
Right now, the absolute pinnacle is Alice and the MagicGods. Even when you look at their direct comparisons and portrayals, that much is evident.

Could you please explain why the Secret Chiefs have been placed at the highest rank?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

The Secret Chiefs are ranked too high;
they don’t deserve that spot.
Right now, the absolute pinnacle is Alice and the MagicGods. Even when you look at their direct comparisons and portrayals, that much is evident.

Could you please explain why the Secret Chiefs have been placed at the highest rank?

I figure it might be due to, uh... Aiwass stuff and them powering the Transcendents or smth? I do also know that the Secret Chiefs may have some hype going for them due to the works of the IRL!Aleister Crowely, but I am not sure if I am right or if I am mixing this up with something else, to be frank.

---

Oh. Progress report, as per usual.

Kakeru. Elza. Clarie. Are all a 100% reworked now. I only have three more profiles to go and the Kamisato Faction will be fully reworked and can possibly be used to make a team profile for them, lol.

 

[Piamma]

I figure it might be due to, uh... Aiwass stuff and them powering the Transcendents or smth? I do also know that the Secret Chiefs may have some hype going for them due to the works of the IRL!Aleister Crowely, but I am not sure if I am right or if I am mixing this up with something else, to be frank.

---

Oh. Progress report, as per usual.

Kakeru. Elza. Clarie. Are all a 100% reworked now. I only have three more profiles to go and the Kamisato Faction will be fully reworked and can possibly be used to make a team profile for them, lol.

If Aiwass were to be properly completed according to Aleister’s plan, it could theoretically overpower all MagicGods at once. However, this remains strictly an ‘IF’ scenario.

At present, even if you combine the powers of Aiwass and Coronzon, they still fall below CRC. And that CRC is clearly far weaker than Alice in a direct confrontation. Even Alice, though, is utterly helpless against phase manipulation.

 

[Axscell]

If Aiwass were to be properly completed according to Aleister’s plan, it could theoretically overpower all MagicGods at once. However, this remains strictly an ‘IF’ scenario.

At present, even if you combine the powers of Aiwass and Coronzon, they still fall below CRC. And that CRC is clearly far weaker than Alice in a direct confrontation. Even Alice, though, is utterly helpless against phase manipulation.

In other words, Full Powered Magic are still >>> everyone else.

 

[Piamma]

In other words, Full Powered Magic are still >>> everyone else.

What many people misunderstand is the statement in GT Volume 9’s summary that CRC has surpassed the MagicGods.
This misunderstanding stems from two things: parts of the afterword in GT6 and a point about GT9.

I’ve already explained the GT6 part. As for GT9, it merely lists the individuals who fought CRC at that time—in other words, it’s referring to Othinus, who had lost all her power.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

In other words, Full Powered Magic are still >>> everyone else.

If only Aiwass wasn't a potential man, huh? ... Okay, that can be assigned to pretty much every antagonist post MG, tbh. All hype and potential; but they fail to live up to the direct feats of... Othinus, whom the TMGs are superior to, lol.

 

[Axscell]

What many people misunderstand is the statement in GT Volume 9’s summary that CRC has surpassed the MagicGods.
This misunderstanding stems from two things: parts of the afterword in GT6 and a point about GT9.

I’ve already explained the GT6 part. As for GT9, it merely lists the individuals who fought CRC at that time—in other words, it’s referring to Othinus, who had lost all her power.

What statements are you referring to, if you don't mind my asking?

 

[Piamma]

What statements are you referring to, if you don't mind my asking?

Kamijou and his allies stand against the “Resurrected Rosenkreuz,” who roams freely through Academy City!

MagicGods, transcendents, espers, magicians—CRC (Christian Rosenkreuz) is a being that surpasses them all. No one can halt his terrifying advance, undertaken merely to relieve his boredom. No one, that is, except Kamijou Touma—!

Not even the knowledge of the living grimoire library, Index,
nor the tactics of the “Magic God” Othinus could keep up.

Be it the “Transcendent” of the “Kyoka Gessha,” the grimoire library, a “Magic God,”
or legendary magicians like Aleister or Kingsford—
not one of them had ever landed such a perfect first strike.

for those people, I have one fundamental question: why on earth are you so casually including MagicGods who never even fought in that statement? I’m really curious to know.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Kamijou and his allies stand against the “Resurrected Rosenkreuz,” who roams freely through Academy City!

MagicGods, transcendents, espers, magicians—CRC (Christian Rosenkreuz) is a being that surpasses them all. No one can halt his terrifying advance, undertaken merely to relieve his boredom. No one, that is, except Kamijou Touma—!

Not even the knowledge of the living grimoire library, Index,
nor the tactics of the “Magic God” Othinus could keep up.

Be it the “Transcendent” of the “Kyoka Gessha,” the grimoire library, a “Magic God,”
or legendary magicians like Aleister or Kingsford—
not one of them had ever landed such a perfect first strike.

for those people, I have one fundamental question: why on earth are you so casually including MagicGods who never even fought in that statement? I’m really curious to know.

Probs, hype to make CRC seem "strong" than anything reasonable, ig.

 

[Piamma]

Probs, hype to make CRC seem "strong" than anything reasonable, ig.

They are so caught up in the overhype that they completely ignore the clear statement in GT Volume 10 that Alice is above CRC.
Moreover, even Alice is ultimately compared to a MagicGod (Othinus) as a point of reference and was completely killed by Othinus once.

It’s honestly quite ridiculous.

 

[XDragnoir]

If Aiwass were to be properly completed according to Aleister’s plan, it could theoretically overpower all MagicGods at once. However, this remains strictly an ‘IF’ scenario.

Not really an "if", Aiwass' true form is a SC and as Fanta pointed out the SCs are a power source for the Transcendents (including Alice iirc).

The Aiwass we see around is just a minor manifestation, but that doesn't mean anything to how strong we know his original form could be.

At present, even if you combine the powers of Aiwass and Coronzon, they still fall below CRC. And that CRC is clearly far weaker than Alice in a direct confrontation. Even Alice, though, is utterly helpless against phase manipulation.

Again, those two are limited to their manifestations, they didn't grant Aleister their full power so this doesn't really mean anything to it and its scaling.

Also, Coronzon isn't a SC, I think.

 

[XDragnoir]

completely ignore the clear statement in GT Volume 10 that Alice is above CRC.

Also, what statement was that again?

 

[Axscell]

To help move things along more smoothly, I’ve created a table here detailing all of the CRTs that are ongoing for Toaru, along with those that we have plans for, but are yet to be made, and possibly those that have reached some kind of conclusion but haven’t had the proposed changes applied yet. Hopefully this'll help us keep track of changes and additions that need to be made/concluded. Feel free to add to it (or let me know to do so), or remove those that have been concluded and added.

S. No​	Thread​	Aim​	Current Status​	Reason for Current Status​	OP​
1​	Alice Anotherbible’s Resistance​	To list down and add resistances that fall under internal damage for Alice Anotherbible.	Ongoing?/Dead?​	No response from participants and mods. Possibly requires separate discussion thread before revival.	@XDragnoir​
2​	Dragon King Touma Abilities​	To add Dragon King abilities to Touma’s Invisible Thing key	Concluded?​	Seems to have been passed. Pending addition to Touma’s profile.	@Churronzon​
3​	Infinite Speed Magic Gods​	To grant the Magic Gods infinite speed	Ongoing​	Requires more participation.	@Churronzon​
4​	Top Tier Revision​	To modify AP for Toaru top tiers (Fiamma, Aleister, Mathers etc)	Dead?​	Was abandoned due to number of ongoing Toaru CRTs	@FantaRin_The_First​
5​	[Toaru H1-B Hax] Curtana Revision Retry​	To upgrade Curtana’s hax to H1-B	Ongoing​	Ongoing discussion. Requires more participation.	@LOTM_Historian​
6​	Low Tier Scaling Part 1 (Science Side)​	Fixing scaling for Toaru low tiers (Tier 9 - 7 range)	Concluded?​	Seems to have concluded. Pending additions to profiles.	@FantaRin_The_First​
7​	On Alice Surviving Gungnir’s Destruction​	To give Alice resistance to phase manipulation	Ongoing?​	Requires conclusion. Possibly requires separate discussion thread.	@Churronzon​
8​	Crowley’s Nondualism​	To grant Aleister Crowley Nonduality	Ongoing​	Requires more participation.	@Aseka​
9​	Very Minor Toaru Thing​	To give Beginning Child poison resistance	Ongoing?​	Requires conclusion/addition to profile?	@The_King_of_Prudence​
10​	Random Toaru Ability​	Adding missing hax for Izzard	Ongoing​	Requires more participation.	@Churronzon​
11​	Adding the Will to the Sisters page​	Adding several hax to Will of the Whole Misaka Network [profile pending creation]	Ongoing​	Requires more participation. Possibly needs to revived as a separate thread.	@Churronzon​
12​	[Untitled]​	Addition of missing hax for the Magic Gods​	Not Yet Made​	N/A​	N/A​

P.S. It’d be nice if we could conclude these one at a time.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

For Low Tier Scaling Part 1 (Science Side), I have, more or less, abandoned it and have chosen the more productive option of remaking a set amount of profiles instead of wide-spread tier upgrades.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

For Low Tier Scaling Part 1 (Science Side), I have, more or less, abandoned it and have chosen the more productive option of remaking a set amount of profiles instead of wide-spread tier upgrades.

Adding more onto this, I have decided to hold off in making any more CRTs until I complete my sandbox for the Kamisato Faction profile reworks and my future sandbox for the NT4 cast profile reworks after I am done with the Kamisato Faction stuff (since some NT4 folks have some important standing in low-tier scaling).

 

[Axscell]

For Low Tier Scaling Part 1 (Science Side), I have, more or less, abandoned it and have chosen the more productive option of remaking a set amount of profiles instead of wide-spread tier upgrades.

Alright. I'll make the change.

Adding more onto this, I have decided to hold off in making any more CRTs until I complete my sandbox for the Kamisato Faction profile reworks and my future sandbox for the NT4 cast profile reworks after I am done with the Kamisato Faction stuff (since some NT4 folks have some important standing in low-tier scaling).

Does this mean that the No. 4 CRT is also completely dead?

 

[Churronzon]

Also, what statement was that again?

The girl had been decapitated.

But that hadn’t been enough to stop her.

She had killed CRC.

Even a monster on his level had lost his life when he angered Alice and made her take him even a little bit seriously. And now those same sharp claws were at someone else’s throat.

Alice Anotherbible had easily crushed and killed CRC and so thoroughly eliminated him from the world that he could never recover. She was a true monster.

Kingsford had not reached that point.

The most blatant one:

The situation was clearly worsening and Alice was even more powerful than CRC. Certain death awaited Kingsford. Alice waited in a land that brought death to all who set foot there.

In GT11, CRC is also astounded that Touma defeated Alice. Obv Touma didn't do it with raw power as he didn't even use the Dragon King, but it indicates that CRC still considers Alice to be above himself.

“You left after Alice ed you and have spent the rest of your holed up in your false hell preparing for your resurrection, but so for him. He lived on after that. It was for long, but in that , Kamijou Touma defeated Alice Anotherbible.”

“He…what?”

“On his own. Without relying on Strike.”

He finally fell silent.

Common reality had surpassed his imagination.

“Kamijou Touma has already done one thing that CRC could . Do you he gained nothing from that?”

Funny how this would likely mean Anna Sprengel is/was stronger than CRC for equally matching Alice.

Alice Anotherbible’s attack wasn’t deflected or redirected – it was stopped from head on by an attack of equal power.

---

and can possibly be used to make a team profile for them, lol.

reminded me I wanted to make a team profile for Kihara Family and give them type 8 immortality so long as humanity wishes to misuse science

 

[XDragnoir]

The most blatant one:

Thanks.

Funny how this would likely mean Anna Sprengel is/was stronger than CRC for equally matching Alice.

I think that depends on the spell, CRC's Pneuma weapons should be stronger or at least equal to Anna's, meanwhile Rota is much stronger than all that.

Especially cause the novel implies Dragon King > Alice meanwhile we literally see CRC vs DK and they're pretty even.

---

reminded me I wanted to make a team profile for Kihara Family and give them type 8 immortality so long as humanity wishes to misuse science

The Kihara are everything but immortals, yk?

 

[Piamma]

I think that depends on the spell, CRC's Pneuma weapons should be stronger or at least equal to Anna's, meanwhile Rota is much stronger than all that.

Especially cause the novel implies Dragon King > Alice meanwhile we literally see CRC vs DK and they're pretty even.

In the case of Rota, its principle is very similar to the Flaming Sword.
At the very least, I think it would be difficult for Anna Sprengel to counter it.

 

[Piamma]

Again, those two are limited to their manifestations, they didn't grant Aleister their full power so this doesn't really mean anything to it and its scaling.

Also, Coronzon isn't a SC, I think.

It’s true that the Secret Chiefs currently exist with limited power. However, we can’t definitively confirm the claim that they are clearly superior to the MagicGods.
This situation is somewhat similar to the comparisons made between Fiamma and the MagicGods before the true extent of their power was revealed (up to OT22).
In this regard, we need to approach this matter with more caution.

 

[Churronzon]

I think that depends on the spell, CRC's Pneuma weapons should be stronger or at least equal to Anna's, meanwhile Rota is much stronger than all that.

I meant in terms of spells/amps that affect them physically, like Anna Sprengel would punch Aiwass harder than CRC. Or how it would mean CRC would not physically match Alice's strikes with equal power.

 

[XDragnoir]

It’s true that the Secret Chiefs currently exist with limited power. However, we can’t definitively confirm the claim that they are clearly superior to the MagicGods.
This situation is somewhat similar to the comparisons made between Fiamma and the MagicGods before the true extent of their power was revealed (up to OT22).
In this regard, we need to approach this matter with more caution.

I wouldn't really say that, before GT I would have agreed with you but currently we have them as power sources for Transcendents who are themselves meant to be MG level, meanwhile Aiwass himself has his own hype for being MG level

Fiamma on the other hand didn't really have any kind of comparison with MGs, in that case that was complete speculation.

I meant in terms of spells/amps that affect them physically, like Anna Sprengel would punch Aiwass harder than CRC. Or how it would mean CRC would not physically match Alice's strikes with equal power.

That's fair then.

Tho, I really think it's strange that CRC is that unimpressive when it comes to physicals, we have way too many 5Bs for a "Magic Expert" to be not even close to that in stats.

 

[Churronzon]

KnT profile

 

[Axscell]

KnT profile

Shouldn't the Dragon King be on Touma's (normal one) profile instead?

 

[Aseka]

Shouldn't the Dragon King be on Touma's (normal one) profile instead?

Seeing as how Dragon King emerged from the emanation, for sure he can change his form into Dragon King.

 

[Axscell]

Seeing as how Dragon King emerged from the emanation, for sure he can change his form into Dragon King.

He maybe could, but he never actually did. It's a form explicitly used by Touma alone, so it should be on his profile, no?

 

[XDragnoir]

Seeing as how Dragon King emerged from the emanation

Which emanation are you referring to here?

KnT profile

Also, as Axscell said KnT shouldn't have CDK, that should only be on Touma's profile for now.

 

[Aseka]

Which emanation are you referring to here?

KnT of course, isn't he is the manifested Dragon King at the time?

 

[XDragnoir]

KnT of course, isn't he is the manifested Dragon King at the time?

What?

Are you talking about 22R or GT9?

 

[Churronzon]

Also, as Axscell said KnT shouldn't have CDK, that should only be on Touma's profile for now.

What’s the point in waiting for later?

What?

Are you talking about 22R or GT9?

KnT identified himself as the dragon king.

Kamijou heard a voice from somewhere. It came from inside his own head.

Another boy spoke clearly.

“I was just about fed up with him myself. No more holding back. If you didn’t do it, I was
about to come out on my own!!!”

In 22R KnT’s interior is that of a dragon that wears human skin in contrast to toumas dragon shell that enveloped him. KnT can appear in various forms.

 

[XDragnoir]

What’s the point in waiting for later?

KnT identified himself as the dragon king.

In 22R KnT’s interior is that of a dragon that wears human skin in contrast to toumas dragon shell that enveloped him. KnT can appear in various forms.

Because we don't know if he can, while in the form of Kamijou Clone, somehow summon himself or turn into the CDK, nothing there implied he could.

Meanwhile the version we saw in GT9 will be on Touma's profile, it would be redundant to have both.