Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[MeidoIzayoi]

semantics yeah
restoration from nothing is a thing in fiction

 

[Aseka]

Here she implies, pretty directly, that they are in the Pure World

What Othinus meant by that is the Black World i.e the blank canvas, when shifting the phase. I don't think she referring to Pure World, since the Black World itself is a pure black nothingness.

 

[Piamma]

Might just be me but if it was not truly recreated, it does not sound like it was truly destroyed.
We're getting into semantics though

I am not sure if my analogy is appropriate, but let me explain first.

Let's compare Othinus to a PC

delete A forder from Pc.
A folder at this time is toaru World.

And let's say that the Files in A folder are the elements that make up the world, such as Phase, Sephirot, Universe, Dimension, and so on.

At this time, IB acts as a trash box of PC.

You restore the A folder by pressing the Restore button from the PC's trash.

Normally we wouldn't say this is a new creation.

This is how Mgs world destruction works.

 

[MrOMG]

The Sephirot tree is only a class diagram of humans, gods, and angels. And it never says that this applies to all mytho-religious concepts of the Toaru.

The Mgs are those who, as they themselves say and Aleister also says, have been elevated to gods by some sort of foul play.

Unless otherwise mentioned by the writer, the current Mgs cannot be placed anywhere in Sephiroth or Qliphoth.

But Curtana, uses Michael's power, can be killed with a single blow if he hits Pure World's Aiwass, and Mgs can break Phase of Heaven, including such Michael

Kamachi once explained the power inflation between the Old and New Testment when the anime Season 3 broadcasted.

He said that the Mgs are in a totally different higher existence than the Angels.

In answer to your answer.

Coronzon states in Nt22 that the sephirot and the Qlipot are trees that now exist in the world.

The Mgs then remove the larger framework of the world.

Like Pure Wolrd, neither the sephirot nor the Qlipot can escape its destruction as they are mere components.

The Magical Gods are losers who tried to fool the world. The human soul is supposed to go to a realm beyond the human world after it dies, but to do that the soul has to increase its soul rank/purity/etc. depending on the mythology. But Magical Gods didn't succeed, they couldn't overcome the "closed ceiling" separating the world of humans and the world of angels. The High Priest couldn't become a Buddha. Because of this, the Magical Gods are in a strange state in which because of their level of purity they can no longer be part of the Surface of the Four Worlds, but they cannot enter the world of angels and gods. Therefore, they are described as those who have only climbed half a mountain, and are part of a toy box.

Magical Gods cannot destroy the entire world, it is impossible for them, due to the fact that they are limited to the Surface of the Four Worlds. Magical Gods are not on the level of Jesus or Adam Kadmon, able to affect the whole world.

 

[Piamma]

The Magical Gods are losers who tried to fool the world. The human soul is supposed to go to a realm beyond the human world after it dies, but to do that the soul has to increase its soul rank/purity/etc. depending on the mythology. But Magical Gods didn't succeed, they couldn't overcome the "closed ceiling" separating the world of humans and the world of angels. The High Priest couldn't become a Buddha. Because of this, the Magical Gods are in a strange state in which because of their level of purity they can no longer be part of the Surface of the Four Worlds, but they cannot enter the world of angels and gods. Therefore, they are described as those who have only climbed half a mountain, and are part of a toy box.

You are completely misinterpreting that part.

It means that Tmgs cannot belong to heaven because they became gods in a way that is not normal.

It does not mean that they are below such concepts.

They were seeking a place of peace of mind for themselves, and there was no such place for them, having ascended to God so rapidly.

he explained the process of becoming a Buddha normally in Buddhism as a process through samsara.

However, High Priests who became Buddhas in only one generation could not normally belong to the pinnacle of Buddhism.

So they wanted a Kamijou as their spiritual home, and that is the content of Nt 13.

It had nothing to do with power.

It is a heaven that has already been shown to have been definitely destroyed by Othinus in the first place.

they couldn't overcome the "closed ceiling" separating the world of humans and the world of angels.

And Kamachi revealed

angels << Mgs for sure now.

If Mgs can't even cross the barrier between mere humans and angels, that's not right, is it?

 

[MrOMG]

You are completely misinterpreting that part.

It means that Tmgs cannot belong to heaven because they became gods in a way that is not normal.

It does not mean that they are below such concepts.

They were seeking a place of peace of mind for themselves, and there was no such place for them, having ascended to God so rapidly.

he explained the process of becoming a Buddha normally in Buddhism as a process through samsara.

However, High Priests who became Buddhas in only one generation could not normally belong to the pinnacle of Buddhism.

So they wanted a Kamijou as their spiritual home, and that is the content of Nt 13.

It had nothing to do with power.

It is a heaven that has already been shown to have been definitely destroyed by Othinus in the first place.



And Kamachi revealed

angels << Mgs for sure now.

If Mgs can't even cross the barrier between mere humans and angels, that's not right, is it?

Except you're forgetting that they themselves said they couldn't overcome the closed ceiling. It was because of their deception that the Magical Gods were unable to raise their soul rank and purify their souls from original sin. Magical Gods are exactly that, gods in the human world. That's why the Coronzon Arc mentioned this. The Magical Gods despite all their power cling to the Surface of the Four Worlds and are unable to leave it, and are still part of the toy box. Only Lilith, who was able to cleanse her soul of original sin, could theoretically compare to Coronzon. Aleister himself says so. God forbade people to leave the human world before the beginning of the judgment on mankind, and Magical Gods are people who tried to cheat this law, and they failed, they are a dead end branch of human evolution. And if the Magical Gods can destroy the entire world, then their power is equal to the Mo Atair Ceremony and the Aleister Ceremony. Except Coronzon has an attack comparable to Gungir that destroyed the entire world. Why would Coronzon even need a ceremony for a god to restart the entire world when she can do it herself in a weakened state thanks to the Flaming Sword?

 

[Piamma]

Except you're forgetting that they themselves said they couldn't overcome the closed ceiling.

Except you're forgetting that they themselves said they couldn't overcome the closed ceiling.

That is not true.
I have already fully explained why above.

Magical Gods are exactly that, gods in the human world. That's why the Coronzon Arc mentioned this. The Magical Gods despite all their power cling to the Surface of the Four Worlds and are unable to leave it, and are still part of the toy box. Only Lilith, who was able to cleanse her soul of original sin, could theoretically compare to Coronzon. Aleister himself says so. God forbade people to leave the human world before the beginning of the judgment on mankind, and Magical Gods are people who tried to cheat this law, and they failed, they are a dead end branch of human evolution. And if the Magical Gods can destroy the entire world, then their power is equal to the Mo Atair Ceremony and the Aleister Ceremony. Except Coronzon has an attack comparable to Gungir that destroyed the entire world. Why would Coronzon even need a ceremony for a god to restart the entire world when she can do it herself in a weakened state thanks to the Flaming Sword?

Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

I don't get the question, isn't the Ceremony of Mo Athair's entire deal exactly that? Like, saying it wouldn't is pretty going against the plot. Othinus destroying it tho... Strange, it's just really strange as I don't recall any statement directly saying she did or didn't affect it during...

vsbattles.com

I've already explained why the toy box analogy is wrong.

And if the Magical Gods can destroy the entire world, then their power is equal to the Mo Atair Ceremony and the Aleister Ceremony. Except Coronzon has an attack comparable to Gungir that destroyed the entire world. Why would Coronzon even need a ceremony for a god to restart the entire world when she can do it herself in a weakened state thanks to the Flaming Sword?

The flame Sword is only comparable to the Gungnir in attack power only, and there is no such function to destroy phases.

Nt10) In fact Index and Birdway have succeeded in implementing only the destructive power of the Magic God only once,

Gungnir looks like destruction, but is actually no different than inserting a phase,
so it directly manipulates the phase.

Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

I don't get the question, isn't the Ceremony of Mo Athair's entire deal exactly that? Like, saying it wouldn't is pretty going against the plot. Othinus destroying it tho... Strange, it's just really strange as I don't recall any statement directly saying she did or didn't affect it during...

vsbattles.com

The difference in methods has already been explained above.

 

[MrOMG]

Except you're forgetting that they themselves said they couldn't overcome the closed ceiling.


That is not true.
I have already fully explained why above.

Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

I don't get the question, isn't the Ceremony of Mo Athair's entire deal exactly that? Like, saying it wouldn't is pretty going against the plot. Othinus destroying it tho... Strange, it's just really strange as I don't recall any statement directly saying she did or didn't affect it during...

vsbattles.com

I've already explained why the toy box analogy is wrong.




The flame Sword is only comparable to the Gungnir in attack power only, and there is no such function to destroy phases.

Nt10) In fact Index and Birdway have succeeded in implementing only the destructive power of the Magic God only once,

Gungnir looks like destruction, but is actually no different than inserting a phase,
so it directly manipulates the phase.

Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

I don't get the question, isn't the Ceremony of Mo Athair's entire deal exactly that? Like, saying it wouldn't is pretty going against the plot. Othinus destroying it tho... Strange, it's just really strange as I don't recall any statement directly saying she did or didn't affect it during...

vsbattles.com

The difference in methods has already been explained above.

You didn't explain anything properly, and you didn't even try to challenge my arguments about Magical Gods being limited to the Surface, which was stated in the work itself.

You say that the toy box analogy doesn't work because Index did it, except you forget that Aleister also talked about it. Several characters have said that the Magical Gods can't defeat Coronzon because they are part of the toy box, and then Aleister says that only Lilith can fight Coronzon because her soul is purified of original sin and doesn't belong in the toy box, unlike the Magical Gods.

Gungnir destroys the world because it also "destroys/creates" all Phases. The Flaming Sword is also capable of destroying the world, and confirms this with the quote that it also takes the power to destroy the barrier of England need power destroy the world, i.e. the power of a Magical God at the peak of power, or IB. And the Flaming Sword is capable of destroying that barrier, which means that Coronzon's magic is at the level of destroying the entire world, and including the Pure World, and why would she need this ceremony if she is already capable of destroying the entire world with one spell?

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Speaking of unified theories, do we consider the following wiki article applicable to all mythos within Toaru?

I don't think we should step into Kamachi's territory. It doesn't make much sense trying to superimpose a unified mystic framework on top of existing toaru statements only to have it later overthrown by the author of the versu. I am totally fine using irl hierarchy to infer character solely based on a single system btw. It's safe to assume a future character occupying the post of Keter is superior to Coronzon without explicit contradiction since that's what Kabbalah implies in itself.

The Sephirot tree is only a class diagram of humans, gods, and angels. And it never says that this applies to all mytho-religious concepts of the Toaru.
...
Coronzon states in Nt22 that the sephirot and the Qlipot are trees that now exist in the world.
...

No. It was never stated the Sephiroth are part of the world; to the contrary, it was stated as something like "the bottom of of the Sephiroth is the surface world". It is important to know that the Sephiroth is used to refer to both the microcosmos and marcocosmos in different contexts within the toaru novels. We just don't know exactly how these two correspond. Besides, since Rosicrucianism, which also bases heavily on the Qabalah, is currently the main plotline, I strongly suggest we stop any attempt to rank MGs against the Sephiroth or vice versa. The Japanese wiki also incorrectly categorizes "Four Worlds" as a phase, which is completely unfounded in the source text.


Now having put those aside I want to summarize my point (especially about what we should do in a CRT):

1. Pure World is a type of Phase. So it has to be considered destroyed by Gungnir until proven otherwise.
2. All magical phases stacking on top of Pure World compose the surface world of Toaru cosmology together with Pure World itself, a H1-C structure volume-wise.
3. Because of point.2, destroying the Pure World will bring destruction of the entire surface world including all the phases of magic. (H1-C feat)
4. The Hidden World is a phase that is beyond the foundational support of the Pure World and it won't be destroyed even if the entire surface world is gone. (H1-C feat if similar destruction is shown)

Consequently,

• We should refrain from any suggestion of superiority to MGs using the argument of the superiority of Pure World, which is never solid to begin with.
• Currently, this only affects one supporting evidence of Aiwass being H1-C. I think him having statement of overwhelming all MGs including full-power Othinus is enough to support him being H1-C. However, using Pure World's inaccessibility to prove it is redundant and wrong.

 

[Piamma]

Now having put those aside I want to summarize my point (especially about what we should do in a CRT):

1. Pure World is a type of Phase. So it has to be considered destroyed by Gungnir until proven otherwise.
2. All magical phases stacking on top of Pure World compose the surface world of Toaru cosmology together with Pure World itself, a H1-C structure volume-wise.
3. Because of point.2, destroying the Pure World will bring destruction of the entire surface world including all the phases of magic. (H1-C feat)
4. The Hidden World is a phase that is beyond the foundational support of the Pure World and it won't be destroyed even if the entire surface world is gone. (H1-C feat if similar destruction is shown)

Consequently,

• We should refrain from any suggestion of superiority to MGs using the argument of the superiority of Pure World, which is never solid to begin with.
• Currently, this only affects one supporting evidence of Aiwass being H1-C. I think him having statement of overwhelming all MGs including full-power Othinus is enough to support him being H1-C. However, using Pure World's inaccessibility to prove it is redundant and wrong.

I agree with the 1-4 content.

However, the reference to Nt18 coming out that Aiwass will overwhelm all Mgs is an "if" if Aiwass is completed in Aleister's Plan.

And in the current Toaru plot, that Plan is in a collapsed state.
I am not opposed to using it depending on how the story progresses in the future, but I think it is difficult to see the current Aiwass as more than the sum of all the full power Mgs.

but That doesn't mean I'm denying Aiwass's h1c extension.
Both Aiwass and Coronzon have H1C extensions that
Aleister exceeded Abyss, but still less than Aiwass and Coronzon in terms of the amount of power, according to Gt9's statement.

 

[XDragnoir]

1. Pure World is a type of Phase.

Yes, it's the Base Phase, but unlike the others it by definition isn't a Filter Phase, so it's completely different from what the MGs create and what they can destroy.

3. the Hidden Phase is a non-existent phase that exists outside the Toaru world.

No? Where is it stated that it's outside of the world? Even if its nature is nonexistent, void place, it's still a Phase at the end of the day so it has to be sustained by the Pure World like literally everything else in the verse.

Would destroying the Pure World destroy the Sephiroth?

Yes, that's literally what Coronzon was planning to do.

Would creating the bottom of the Sephiroth create the higher Sephirah?

We have no idea since the Pure World was never destroyed, but in theory IB should contain the Sephiroth as part of the backup too.

Speaking of unified theories, do we consider the following wiki article applicable to all mythos within Toaru?

You're asking for wiki related info or for Toaru in general?

For either I'd say no, again we can't use IRL stuff for scaling the verse, meanwhile I don't think Kamachi strictly follows any IRL interpretation to write Toaru

Like does Idol theory apply to every magician no matter what myth or ideology they draw from?

We've seen magicians from several different religions already and I am pretty multiple of those used Idol Theory, so... Yes? Not sure why you brought this up tho.

What Othinus meant by that is the Black World i.e the blank canvas, when shifting the phase. I don't think she referring to Pure World, since the Black World itself is a pure black nothingness.

Bro what? She is literally talking about the Pure World then goes on to say Touma is fortunate to see it, with the narration later adding that it's a place of great value and Index would have gotten a lot more from seeing it than Touma.

How does any of the apply to the Black World if it's not the Pure World? May just be a minor part of it or something like that, but the quote is explicitly talking about the Pure World.

 

[Churronzon]

We have no idea since the Pure World was never destroyed, but in theory IB should contain the Sephiroth as part of the backup too.

I disagree. IIRC, it only contains information about the Pure World. For reversions/restorations, Othinus would have to use her own knowledge of the phase(s) that existed in Touma's world. Maybe I'm wrong

How does any of the apply to the Black World if it's not the Pure World? May just be a minor part of it or something like that, but the quote is explicitly talking about the Pure World.

Tbh this is the first time I've ever even seen this interpretation. Gungnir shouldn't be allowed in the Pure World if IB can negate it imo. Not like Gungnir is considered natural like Great Demons pouring a great amount of weird energy into it.

Now having put those aside I want to summarize my point (especially about what we should do in a CRT):

1. Pure World is a type of Phase. So it has to be considered destroyed by Gungnir until proven otherwise.
2. All magical phases stacking on top of Pure World compose the surface world of Toaru cosmology together with Pure World itself, a H1-C structure volume-wise.
3. Because of point.2, destroying the Pure World will bring destruction of the entire surface world including all the phases of magic. (H1-C feat)
4. The Hidden World is a phase that is beyond the foundational support of the Pure World and it won't be destroyed even if the entire surface world is gone. (H1-C feat if similar destruction is shown)

Point 1:

Point 2: Wouldn't Lilith be dissipated if the phase she was residing in was considered the surface world? Angels are also described as simultaneously residing outside the surface world of humans and inside the phase of heaven. That would be why the Japanese wiki categorizes the Four Worlds as a phase.
Point 3: Loss of the pure world destroys more than just the surface in Coronzon's ceremony regardless of point 2.
Point 4: And this one hinges on point 1 right?

I strongly suggest we stop any attempt to rank MGs against the Sephiroth or vice versa
Currently, this only affects one supporting evidence of Aiwass being H1-C. I think him having statement of overwhelming all MGs including full-power Othinus is enough to support him being H1-C. However, using Pure World's inaccessibility to prove it is redundant and wrong.

agree

It is important to know that the Sephiroth is used to refer to both the microcosmos and marcocosmos in different contexts within the toaru novels. We just don't know exactly how these two correspond.

Kamachi give us an explanation of Adam Kadmon and how humans are reflections of the higher structure already.
Or anything on Adam Kadmon for that matter

---

Shouldn't Dainsleif be High 1-C since Othinus considers it a suitable weapon for fighting a Magic God and it being able to destroy the world if she doesn't set up a barrier?
There's also the following ability (among others) that's gotta be listed:
Light manipulation (One of its incomplete summons can fire a beam of light at the level of a top-ranking god)
Kamachi was afraid he was breaking the powerscaling by introducing Dainsleif with these specs but he did it anyways lol. Wonder if anyone feels like he's been doing that for a while. xd

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Point 2: Wouldn't Lilith be dissipated if the phase she was residing in was considered the surface world? Angels are also described as simultaneously residing outside the surface world of humans and inside the phase of heaven. That would be why the Japanese wiki categorizes the Four Worlds as a phase.

I honestly think that's just a reading comprehension issue. Kamachi's definition of phase has been consistent since OT4, and it is obvious at that time the Tree of Sephiroth is a subjective(the view from characters inside the story) interpreation of the entire cosmology of the verse including things nobody in OT4 understands, rather than a subordinate of phase cosmology which almost all familiar to magic know well. What makes the tree objectively real is the introduction of Coronzon, because the tree is where she dwells as a being. Since she's a real being, the tree must be a real hierarchy too.

My headcanon is that the angels exist as blocks of Telesma in the phase of Heaven only because people think about them this way. The phase of Heaven is shaped by the magic that human use throughout the history, and the magic is based on their understanding. Angel Fall would be so unique because for the first time Man has pulled an angel to the surface world on a soul level.

Point 3: Loss of the pure world destroys more than just the surface in Coronzon's ceremony regardless of point 2.

Yeah. The ceremony is at least High 1-C. The rating might need revision if more of the Tree is revealed.

Point 4: And this one hinges on point 1 right?

Not really, now I think about it. The Hidden World is able to contain beings unfit of (that be present inside would destroy) a H1-C structure (surface world disregarding Pure World). So it is automatically H1-C regardless of the actual strength of Pure World. It definitely relies not on Pure World if point 1 continues to hold. As Pure World along with all the phases on top of it collectively cannot fit the tMGs, it should not be able to sustain the pressure from Hidden World if we use Coronzon's model.

Shouldn't Dainsleif be High 1-C since Othinus considers it a suitable weapon for fighting a Magic God and it being able to destroy the world if she doesn't set up a barrier?

Agree. Marian should be included in a tier 1 CRT or NT omnibus CRT and her AP is clearly H1-C with Dainsleif given how it is described. I don't understand why we currently rate it as Unknown simply because it was prevented by a barrier. We already know barriers in Toaru can be as strong as H1-C. Else we should rate Fiamma as Multi-Continent too, since his planet busting shot never hit anything tangible.

---

Sure that'd make Marian the weakest High 1-C ever. Toaru is just filled with Busters that are not rounded at all and all they do is murder.

 

[XDragnoir]

Gungnir shouldn't be allowed in the Pure World if IB can negate it imo

What does that have to do with anything? The All Dimension Severing spell isn't natural either and it can get there.

If you disagree with the interpretation, just explain why Othinus would even bring the Pure World into the dialogue if she had no way to get there.

Shouldn't Dainsleif be High 1-C

It should.

 

[MrOMG]

My headcanon is that the angels exist as blocks of Telesma in the phase of Heaven only because people think about them this way. The phase of Heaven is shaped by the magic that human use throughout the history, and the magic is based on their understanding. Angel Fall would be so unique because for the first time Man has pulled an angel to the surface world on a soul level.

Narratively, angels and demons existed a long time ago or long before humanity, but it was humans who gave the formless energies existing in their realms, form and image. They were transcendent beings beyond the Sephirot of the human world

「セフィロトの樹」はカバラの神秘と奥儀を表したもので、「生命の樹」とも呼ばれている。10個の球体「セフィラ」、3本の柱と22本の径「チャネル」で構成されたこの図形の上には、描かれていないもの=神の叡智そのものがあるとされている。セフィロトの樹は、あくまでも人間の世界を描いたものなのだ。ゆえに、セフィロトの外=異界にいる神や天使といった存在は、人間とは全く格の違う存在であり、たとえ聖人といえどもたどり着けない存在である。この考えは学園都市の目指す「SYSTEM（神ならぬ身にて天上の意志に辿り着くもの）」とも類似するものである。

「御便堕し」
本来「魂の位」 が違うために同じ 世界に存在することのない 「御使」 =天使が、人間の位に落ちてきてし 、まったために起きた、人間の「外目見」 と「中身」が入れ替わってしまう現 象。世界中がその影響にあること また、中途半選ながら天使の召映と も言える現象を起こしていることか らも、大規模な術式であると予想さ れる。影響から送れているのは、 「幻 「想殺し (イマジンプレイカー) を持 つ上条や、結界によって不完全ながら 瀬れている土御門たちのみである。

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Narratively, angels and demons existed a long time ago or long before humanity, but it was humans who gave the formless energies existing in their realms, form and image. They were transcendent beings beyond the Sephirot of the human world

Would be helpful to see how quoted section is actually framed in the guidebook. Wish somebody has a page scan of this.
Additionally, is the guidebook written by Kamachi himself?

 

[Aseka]

No? Where is it stated that it's outside of the world? Even if its nature is nonexistent, void place, it's still a Phase at the end of the day so it has to be sustained by the Pure World like literally everything else in the verse.

I agree with this, being nonexistent doesn't mean you have to independent with the world. It's still contained within the Pure World, but it's nature makes it hard to interact.

 

[XDragnoir]

Y'all know that sending walls of Japanese text and not providing a translation or at the very least the volume/chapter it comes from helps a whole lot of nothing, right?

Just wanted to point this out

 

[Piamma]

Y'all know that sending walls of Japanese text and not providing a translation or at the very least the volume/chapter it comes from helps a whole lot of nothing, right?

Just wanted to point this out

Furthermore, if the guidebook he just presented is what I think it is, the book was released in October 2007. It only has content up to Ot13.

And now it has been 17 years, including newly updated or clarified settings. It is not right to use that material as a basis.

As for the relevant text, I have the original and will try to find it when I get home.

 

[MrOMG]

Furthermore, if the guidebook he just presented is what I think it is, the book was released in October 2007. It only has content up to Ot13.

And now it has been 17 years, including newly updated or clarified settings. It is not right to use that material as a basis.

As for the relevant text, I have the original and will try to find it when I get home.

Except that this Guidebook material does not contradict Lore, it is even confirmed in OT22 when the narrative says that the higher worlds cannot be explained using grammar and math. Therefore the Tree of Sephiroth only describes the human world

 

[Piamma]

And I submit that material as evidence to refute his claims head on.

This is an interview kamachi left directly with him when he aired toaru season3 anime.

Look at the part in the red frame.
If you don't believe me because of my poor English, please try to turn that part directly using a translation program like deepl or js06


原作小説についてお聞かせください。 現在、 アニメで作っているところからさらに倍くらいの長さにまで進んでしまっているわけ ですけれども (笑)、 新約になって変わった ところ変わらないところがあるかと思いま す。 吉野:新約になってまたキャラクターが増え て、 どんどんインフレ (笑) している面白さ の一方で、 ロシア編までの疾走感も好きなん ですよ。 だから今回やれるのはとてもうれし い。 旧から新約へ 原作小説の魅力のあり方

鎌池:インフレの話が出てきたので言ってお きますと、 聖人という存在の描き方扱い方が 新約の前と後では全然違ってきてますね。 それは多分、 旧シリーズでは天使という存在ま でが大きなファクターとなっていましたが 新約だと魔神という神の領域にある存在が出てきてしまうので、 段階がひとつかわってしまったせいもあるのかと。
Kamachi : Since you mentioned inflation, I should mention that the depiction and treatment of the existence of saint is totally different before and after the New testment. This is due to the fact that in the old series, even the existence of angels was a major factor, but in the New testments , there is MagicGod, an existence in the realm of God, so one stage has changed.

The writer directly professes that the magicgod are a step higher than the angels.

I will reiterate that his reference to the door of heaven not being opened to the mgs is not the part about power.

The source of this interview was purchased and translated by me, so I apologize for not being able to make it available on my blog.

[전격 매거진] [어떤 마술의 금서목록3기] 인터뷰 전문 번역

[어떤 마술의 금서목록 3기 스페셜 좌담] 원작 (카마치 카즈마) x 감독 (니시키오리 히로시) x 시리즈 구성...

m.blog.naver.com

 

[Piamma]

Take a look at the scene where Aleister appeared to nerf the tmgs

High Priest said at this time.

"It is impossible. At best you will be able to reach the useless Aiwass. You cannot create magic that applies to truly perfected Mgs.

And Aleister did not deny it.

Instead, he said

i can get the necessary paramity by directly bumping into us.
That is why I made contact with you at the time when Othinus was defeated.

I don't think so, but did you guys think I was just an idiot?

 

[MrOMG]

And I submit that material as evidence to refute his claims head on.

This is an interview kamachi left directly with him when he aired toaru season3 anime.

Look at the part in the red frame.
If you don't believe me because of my poor English, please try to turn that part directly using a translation program like deepl or js06


原作小説についてお聞かせください。 現在、 アニメで作っているところからさらに倍くらいの長さにまで進んでしまっているわけ ですけれども (笑)、 新約になって変わった ところ変わらないところがあるかと思いま す。 吉野:新約になってまたキャラクターが増え て、 どんどんインフレ (笑) している面白さ の一方で、 ロシア編までの疾走感も好きなん ですよ。 だから今回やれるのはとてもうれし い。 旧から新約へ 原作小説の魅力のあり方

鎌池:インフレの話が出てきたので言ってお きますと、 聖人という存在の描き方扱い方が 新約の前と後では全然違ってきてますね。 それは多分、 旧シリーズでは天使という存在ま でが大きなファクターとなっていましたが 新約だと魔神という神の領域にある存在が出てきてしまうので、 段階がひとつかわってしまったせいもあるのかと。
Kamachi : Since you mentioned inflation, I should mention that the depiction and treatment of the existence of saint is totally different before and after the New testment. This is due to the fact that in the old series, even the existence of angels was a major factor, but in the New testments , there is MagicGod, an existence in the realm of God, so one stage has changed.

The writer directly professes that the magicgod are a step higher than the angels.

I will reiterate that his reference to the door of heaven not being opened to the mgs is not the part about power.

The source of this interview was purchased and translated by me, so I apologize for not being able to make it available on my blog.

[전격 매거진] [어떤 마술의 금서목록3기] 인터뷰 전문 번역

[어떤 마술의 금서목록 3기 스페셜 좌담] 원작 (카마치 카즈마) x 감독 (니시키오리 히로시) x 시리즈 구성...

m.blog.naver.com

And how does that contradict my interpretation? I know that the Magical Gods stepped into God Territory. Aleister also stepped into God Territory because of which his existence couldn't be explained by a simple 0/1. And Accelerator and Kakine were also described as those who were able to touch the wonders of a god. Angels and Demons are also in the territory of God (which is logical, the same Michael is equal to God, and becoming an angel, that is, increasing the purity of the body also leads to the territory of God). And even Lilith, who using only the power of her purified soul from original sin, could already compare to the Magical Gods or be stronger, given that only she could theoretically fight Coronzon. All because the Magical Gods couldn't get past the closed ceiling, and are clinging to the Surface/Toy Boxes.

Take a look at the scene where Aleister appeared to nerf the tmgs

High Priest said at this time.

"It is impossible. At best you will be able to reach the useless Aiwass. You cannot create magic that applies to truly perfected Mgs.

And Aleister did not deny it.

Instead, he said

i can get the necessary paramity by directly bumping into us.
That is why I made contact with you at the time when Othinus was defeated.

I don't think so, but did you guys think I was just an idiot?

And what does that prove? Aleister and mages like him are human, they refused to increase the purity of their bodies, relying only on the power of their souls and minds. But Magical Gods and Gold Mages have the same amount of knowledge, which is why Gold Mages can use magic at the level of Magical Gods. The same Mathers would be able to defeat the Magical Gods with secret texts and play. And where did I say you were an idiot?
I didn't insult you, it's just a hobby where we find out who is stronger, no need to take it so seriously.

 

[Piamma]

And where did I say you were an idiot?
I didn't insult you, it's just a hobby where we find out who is stronger, no need to take it so seriously.

I don't think so, but did you guys think I was just an idiot?

This is not something I'm saying to you.
These are Aleister's words to the High Priest in NT12.

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Furthermore, if the guidebook he just presented is what I think it is, the book was released in October 2007. It only has content up to Ot13.

And now it has been 17 years, including newly updated or clarified settings. It is not right to use that material as a basis.

As for the relevant text, I have the original and will try to find it when I get home.

We typically think all source materials, regardless old or new, effective unless explicitly retconed.
However, the priority is treated differently. The primary text (in our case all volumes of all three series) has the highest priority, then the guidebooks, then WoGs, just a convention of this forum IIRC.

鎌池:インフレの話が出てきたので言ってお きますと、 聖人という存在の描き方扱い方が 新約の前と後では全然違ってきてますね。 それは多分、 旧シリーズでは天使という存在ま でが大きなファクターとなっていましたが 新約だと魔神という神の領域にある存在が出てきてしまうので、 段階がひとつかわってしまったせいもあるのかと。

The writer directly professes that the magic god are a step higher than the angels.
I will reiterate that his reference to the door of heaven not being opened to the mgs is not the part about power.

CRT-wise I don't think anything is substantial enough to even consider ranking entities mentioned in the guidebook. Since this part of WoG is dealing with power inflation, I guess it's mostly referring to how more dramatic feats are shown in NT volumes. On the other hand, I doubt it is effectively retconning previous verse setting. If Kamachi wrote that 2007 guidebook himself, seeing how the setting of phase is exactly the same thing from OT4 to day, I'd tend to take his setting as very solid truth no matter how old it is.

Take a look at the scene where Aleister appeared to nerf the tmgs
...
I don't think so, but did you guys think I was just an idiot?

Too far a strech to mean anything, this is mostly just them talking shit on each other. Aleister clearly has the upper hand here plot-wise.

---

I don't consider angels above MGs by any mean, canon or indexable, based on current developement. However, there's some minor evidence suggesting the Sephiroth is superior, mostly how the Rota spell overwhelms even "the all-destroying dragon maw".

 

[MrOMG]

I don't think so, but did you guys think I was just an idiot?

This is not something I'm saying to you.
These are Aleister's words to the High Priest in NT12.

Uhh, sorry. It was because there were no quotation marks that I couldn't tell the difference between the quote and your post

 

[Piamma]

And how does that contradict my interpretation? I know that the Magical Gods stepped into God Territory. Aleister also stepped into God Territory because of which his existence couldn't be explained by a simple 0/1. And Accelerator and Kakine were also described as those who were able to touch the wonders of a god. Angels and Demons are also in the territory of God (which is logical, the same Michael is equal to God, and becoming an angel, that is, increasing the purity of the body also leads to the territory of God). And even Lilith, who using only the power of her purified soul from original sin, could already compare to the Magical Gods or be stronger, given that only she could theoretically fight Coronzon. All because the Magical Gods couldn't get past the closed ceiling, and are clinging to the Surface/Toy Boxes.

And you don't seem to understand what I am saying at all.

The core of the text is that the Mgs are totally higher beings than the angels.

Even if you are right and the angels belong to the realm of God, kamachi clearly states that the mgs are a higher one level of existence than the angels.

In the extreme, this reference includes all angels mentioned in the Old Testament.

He left this answer for plot changes and inflation.

And as we all know the angels who were the mainstay of the main story in the OT are Michael, Gabriel and AIwass.

You said Mgs are attached to the surface world, but then they are in an infinitely weakened state and Qlipapuzzle545 who said that is a demon at best, let alone an archdemon. She has never seen a full power Magicgod.

 

[MrOMG]

And you don't seem to understand what I am saying at all.

The core of the text is that the Mgs are totally higher beings than the angels.

Even if you are right and the angels belong to the realm of God, kamachi clearly states that the mgs are a higher one level of existence than the angels.

In the extreme, this reference includes all angels mentioned in the Old Testament.

He left this answer for plot changes and inflation.

And as we all know the angels who were the mainstay of the main story in the OT are Michael, Gabriel and AIwass.

You said Mgs are attached to the surface world, but then they are in an infinitely weakened state and Qlipapuzzle545 who said that is a demon at best, let alone an archdemon. She has never seen a full power Magicgod.

So the text doesn't say that Magical Gods are stronger than Angels, only that Magical Gods are in god territory. And even in the NT, the power of the Angels was not downplayed. In the toy box moment, it was also said that Michael would be the one who could fight Coronzon, but they dismissed that idea because summoning an Archangel with a human artifact is impossible, it's a situation comparable to Marian who failed to summon Vishnu.

And about Magical Gods clinging to the Surface was also said by Coronzon, and she adds that Magical Gods are humans who have climbed only half of the mountain thinking it is the top. A person will still be a person no matter how advanced they are in their system/hierarchy and paradigm, so the true heights are beyond their comprehension.

 

[XDragnoir]

it is even confirmed in OT22 when the narrative says that the higher worlds cannot be explained using grammar and math.

Quotes please?

In the toy box moment, it was also said that Michael would be the one who could fight Coronzon, but they dismissed that idea because summoning an Archangel with a human artifact is impossibl

No? It's explicitly stated that Coronzon has a higher level of power than Michael twice.

 

[Piamma]

it is even confirmed in OT22 when the narrative says that the higher worlds cannot be explained using grammar and math.

It appears that this is the part he is referring to.

It is a reference that came up in the process of Accel's search for a formula to save Lastorder.

But this is not to say a higher world.
It simply means that scientific formulas and physics cannot extract paramiti from parchment.

The reason for this is that it is on the magic side.

 

[MrOMG]

Quotes please?

"You're…I see…but there is an inconsistency in that theory. It does not explain why you are here."

"There is nothing strange about that." The magician who should by all rights be inside the windowless building in the center of Academy City responded as if that should be obvious. "The woman named Anna Sprengel was said to have carried out the role of the Secret Chief and of a point of contact and to have helped in the foundation of the Golden cabal, but in the end, it was said to be dubious whether she even truly existed. …I too functioned as the point of contact for Aiwass who is one of the theories of the Secret Chief. To be honest, I do not think that is the exaggerated and much too serious role in charge of things like giving permission for the foundation of all the magic cabals in the world. In fact, I do not think there is any need to get permission for such a thing. But, well, I am the same type of existence as Anna was said to be. As such, it should not be too surprising to think that I have surpassed the realm of only being expressible as 0 or 1."

Even then, Aleister Crowley still existed in the center of Academy City.

But at the same time, Aleister Crowley existed before Fiamma.

Multiple versions of him such as a clone did not exist.

It was just that the single one of him existed in multiple locations.

It was a phenomenon that destroyed the basic concept of counting, but that was just what the domain at the top was like. The Sephirot used various words and numbers to create an explanation of the spiritual world, but organizations above a certain level could not be explained using words, so they were intentionally omitted.

Did someone who entered that domain reach one of those upper organizations or did reaching one of those upper organizations cause one's domain to transform into that domain?

At any rate, Crowley was in a different dimension.

He was in a higher place than Fiamma who had declared he held the power needed to save all of humanity while he was still an existence that could be counted with that world's numbers.

Quotes please?


No? It's explicitly stated that Coronzon has a higher level of power than Michael twice.

The narrative said that Coronzon belongs to a different ladder than the angelic ladder. And Michael was described as the one who is equal to God, and the same God created the whole world, and it is he who must restart the world after the Mo Atair ceremony. So it's pretty complicated, but Michael and Lilith were described as the ones who could theoretically fight Coronzon.

 

[XDragnoir]

Snip

Most of the above is Crowley talking about something we know only gave him the Hazards and is currently under a, nearly dead but still going, CRT to also give him a really basic Non-dualism for that quote, IMO you're reading way too much into it.

The narrative said that Coronzon belongs to a different ladder than the angelic ladder. And Michael was described as the one who is equal to God, and the same God created the whole world, and it is he who must restart the world after the Mo Atair ceremony.

I completely disagree with the idea that the Christian God and his Angels from the Heaven Phase created the entire World, Heaven and the Christian God are never stated to have done that since they're Phasic Beings, they're not even from the Aeon of Horus, they're both limited to a Phase and that's it.

Toaru is slowly building towards the Kabbalah angels and Ain Soph Aur (or whatever is the Kabbalah equivalent) being the top of the verse, not the Christian versions that we got throughout OT (Fiamma of all people became equal to C. God if not stronger and he is fodder).

Also, where was it stated that the Christian God would restart the World after Mo Athair?

So it's pretty complicated, but Michael and Lilith were described as the ones who could theoretically fight Coronzon.

Literally not what is stated:

“Then what are we supposed to do?” carefully asked Third Princess Villian while glancing
over at her mother’s equipment. “We can use Curtana to draw out the power of an angel
and guide everyone using that while inside British territory. But as disrespectful as it
might sound, that doesn’t get any more powerful than an archangel. It isn’t an absolute
good capable of matching an absolute evil.”
___
"Great Demon Coronzon. She is using the power stored up inside herself. Her own power
is more stable than using one of the weaker ley lines. And look how much power that is…
She must be a transcendent lifeform belonging to a different pyramid than Michael or
Gabriel.”
___

The two times it hypes Coronzon as being on a different level than Michael, where are the quotes where it says Michael can fight Coronzon?

 

[MrOMG]

Most of the above is Crowley talking about something we know only gave him the Hazards and is currently under a, nearly dead but still going, CRT to also give him a really basic Non-dualism for that quote, IMO you're reading way too much into it.

The most important thing here is the territory of god in the world of human. As already mentioned, certain territories cannot be explained with numbers and words, so approaching the territory of a god gives you certain privileges, or vice versa, precisely because a person violates the basic principles of arithmetic he was able to approach this territory. Aleister's strange existence came about precisely because he is extremely close to god's territory, so he has transcended what can be described by 0 or 1. If the god's territory could be described by numbers and words, Aleister would not have gotten his strange existence.

After all, god had "expelled" Adam and Eve into the outside world for their sin, so life here was meant as a punishment. In that case, it was best to assume most of the world created by god was made to be unpleasant for humans. And the realm beyond the physical world would be even less pleasant. That was not a line humanity should cross before the last judgment.

I completely disagree with the idea that the Christian God and his Angels from the Heaven Phase created the entire World, Heaven and the Christian God are never stated to have done that since they're Phasic Beings, they're not even from the Aeon of Horus, they're both limited to a Phase and that's it.

Toaru is slowly building towards the Kabbalah angels and Ain Soph Aur (or whatever is the Kabbalah equivalent) being the top of the verse, not the Christian versions that we got throughout OT (Fiamma of all people became equal to C. God if not stronger and he is fodder).

Also, where was it stated that the Christian God would restart the World after Mo Athair?

It's not just Ain Sof Aur, every mythology has its own Gods that created everything. Ain Sof Aur can be compared to the Christian God, Buddha and all the other supreme beings in their mythologies. As already stated 4 worlds of Kabbalah, 6 worlds of Buddhism, 30 spheres of Aetir, all describe the same thing just in different ways. Even the scientific side has come to the existence of a SYSTEM, which is functionally comparable to Ain Sof Aur 000. So here it doesn't matter which mythology is more important, they all describe the same thing. The Magical Gods used completely different mythological systems and their description of the world with their own hierarchies, but in the end they all came to the same result. That is, no matter what number system you use, hexadecimal or decimal, the number of objects will not change, only the perspective.

Fiamma has the symbolism of Adam, who saved the Tree of Sephirot by sacrificing his life. He also fixed one of the problem in God's system that caused the elements to change places, which allowed Angel Fall to happen, so Fiamma's range is extremely large. At the end of OT22 Aleister said that Fiamma's ceremony was comparable to his own ceremony. He was given enough energy to intervene in the world on a super level, but because of the world's wrong paradigm, he was unable to use the energy properly.

I simply use the word God for a collective image of all higher beings.

Literally not what is stated:

“Then what are we supposed to do?” carefully asked Third Princess Villian while glancing
over at her mother’s equipment. “We can use Curtana to draw out the power of an angel
and guide everyone using that while inside British territory. But as disrespectful as it
might sound, that doesn’t get any more powerful than an archangel. It isn’t an absolute
good capable of matching an absolute evil.”
___
"Great Demon Coronzon. She is using the power stored up inside herself. Her own power
is more stable than using one of the weaker ley lines. And look how much power that is…
She must be a transcendent lifeform belonging to a different pyramid than Michael or
Gabriel.”
___

The two times it hypes Coronzon as being on a different level than Michael, where are the quotes where it says Michael can fight Coronzon?

Well it was implied here that the power of Archangel Michael is able to resist the power of Coronzon, but as I said it is impossible to summon a real angel for Curtana. And as I said last post the relationship between ZAX angel and Archangels is quite complicated. Although Phase beings should still destroy the universe by their mere presence like magic God's. And by the way, the power of an esper in theory can kill a Magical God(I don't know why it came to mind)

Humans could observe their environment to intentionally alter probability, produce
various abilities, and control things. That had grown to the point of the Personal Realities
that actually altered the world they could observe. That was the basic logic behind the
scientific espers of Academy City.

However.

What if the abilities were watching the humans as well? If they had the observer’s ability
to alter probability, then could that unknown power control not just Kamijou himself but
the interior and exterior(angel fall reference) of every thinking being of the human race?

For example, even a being like Magic God Othinus could be remade like a puzzle.

 

[XDragnoir]

The most important thing here is the territory of god in the world of human. As already mentioned, certain territories cannot be explained with numbers and words, so approaching the territory of a god gives you certain privileges, or vice versa, precisely because a person violates the basic principles of arithmetic he was able to approach this territory. Aleister's strange existence came about precisely because he is extremely close to god's territory, so he has transcended what can be described by 0 or 1. If the god's territory could be described by numbers and words, Aleister would not have gotten his strange existence.

Okay man, that means they all have their own Hazards and that's it until there's evidence there's any thing else to it, because we know Crowley who is specifically someone with the same ability doesn't have anything else from that.

Where does the quote about Adam and Eve come from?

It's not just Ain Sof Aur, every mythology has its own Gods that created everything. Ain Sof Aur can be compared to the Christian God, Buddha and all the other supreme beings in their mythologies. As already stated 4 worlds of Kabbalah, 6 worlds of Buddhism, 30 spheres of Aetir, all describe the same thing just in different ways. Even the scientific side has come to the existence of a SYSTEM, which is functionally comparable to Ain Sof Aur 000. So here it doesn't matter which mythology is more important, they all describe the same thing. The Magical Gods used completely different mythological systems and their description of the world with their own hierarchies, but in the end they all came to the same result. That is, no matter what number system you use, hexadecimal or decimal, the number of objects will not change, only the perspective.

That's literally wrong, Phase related things can only come into being after the existence of us human beings as we are the ones who created the Phases with our religions, all of them may have their "creator god" but the sheer fact these creator gods were created by us means they can't have created the World no matter how you look at it, you're literally trying to say that beings from human imagination are equal to the actual creator of the World because they both have the title of creator of the world, even tho the former didn't actually create it.

But unlike Phases, the 4 Worlds of Kabbalah weren't created by human imagination so it doesn't fall into that same problem of being created by us abd our phases (meaning its creator god is the closest we have so far to an actual god that created the whole setting).

Fiamma has the symbolism of Adam, who saved the Tree of Sephirot by sacrificing his life. He also fixed one of the problem in God's system that caused the elements to change places, which allowed Angel Fall to happen, so Fiamma's range is extremely large. At the end of OT22 Aleister said that Fiamma's ceremony was comparable to his own ceremony. He was given enough energy to intervene in the world on a super level, but because of the world's wrong paradigm, he was unable to use the energy properly.

Okay? That range does not translate into his power just like we saw with Coronzon's Ceremony, meanwhile Aleister was talking about using IB to strengthen someone as that's the only similarity between both Ceremonies and we know the final result Aleister would achieve is beyond what Fiamma did, Aiwass > LPSaD

I simply use the word God for a collective image of all higher beings.

You were clearly using God to refer to the Christian one as that's the one Michael is comparable to, not only that but you can use "gods" to refer to the multiple Phase Gods if you are actually talking about them next time.

Well it was implied here that the power of Archangel Michael is able to resist the power of Coronzon, but as I said it is impossible to summon a real angel for Curtana.

What? First, they're talking about Coronzon's vessel, so even if that was true that doesn't mean much.

Second, where is it implied Michael could resist Coronzon? It makes it very clear the power of an Archangel isn't enough to match Coronzon.

And as I said last post the relationship between ZAX angel and Archangels is quite complicated. Although Phase beings should still destroy the universe by their mere presence like magic God's.

I really doubt there's an actual relationship given I just gave you a quote where it's clearly stated they're from a different pyramid altogether and one is from the Sephiroth hierarchy meanwhile the other is limited to a Phase.

As for the bit about destroying the universe, I do agree with you, but I don't agree it's in the straightforward way you're implying there, Gabriel, Fiamma and Marian all distorted the world to varying degrees and it doesn't scale to AP in any of these cases IMO.

And by the way, the power of an esper in theory can kill a Magical God(I don't know why it came to mind)

A Level 6 for sure, the ones we have currently tho aren't even close.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, this is my last post on this topic, I don't see any reason to keep a discussion about a part of the verse Kamachi doesn't give enough and clear info that we can actually use to debate.

 

[Churronzon]

Can I give Touma his esper-related abilities now

 

[Axscell]

Also, this is my last post on this topic, I don't see any reason to keep a discussion about a part of the verse Kamachi doesn't give enough and clear info that we can actually use to debate.

Pretty much tbh. In the end, there isn't really any major conclusion that we're gonna be able to come to on these topics without further elaboration from Kamachi.

On another note, isn't this literally textbook concept manipulation from Alice?

Alice sighed.

“The girl’s magic forces all of those things to work.”

“Magic?”

“Ah ha ha. Did you think it was an esper power? Like the #6 who you can’t see clearly?”

He was curious why Alice sounded so knowledgeable about that, but he was more interested in a different question.

Could Alice really be described using just the magic side?

“Do you modify probability so you could always win the lottery or at bingo? No, that isn’t it. That wouldn’t let you include nonexistent possibilities.”

“Correct. It is not that☆”

“Teacher.”

The voice behind him remained entirely innocent. She hopped around in front of him.

That girl there had done all this.

She could end the current world with a snap of her fingers.

“It doesn’t matter if your real-world theories have broken down. Even if there is no direct connection between two ideas, a bridge can always be built if the girl goes on an adventure and creates a new path.”

“A bridge?”

“Hmm, like this: ‘There are four emotions and four elements, so when roleplaying, you can draw on a special power by intentionally drawing on a specific emotion in yourself.’ ”

People would normally call that “a stretch” or “sophistry”. It might sound reasonable at first, but there was no existing mythology or law behind it. In this case, the idea of the four emotions was an Eastern thing and the idea of the four elements was a Western thing commonly seen in fantasy RPGs.

But if you could build a bridge between the two and it would give you power with 100% reliability, you would have a legitimate miracle on your hands.

It reminded him a bit of the way the Amakusas combined Shinto, Buddhism, and Christianity, but this was completely different. Alice didn’t need to find points in common between the two things to form a logical connection. She could notice that a paint set on sale had 12 colors, associate that with the 12 numbers on a clock, and with nothing more than that gain a complete control over time. Except it wouldn’t just apply to Alice herself. The moment she decided that was true, all the paint in the world would gain the same power.

What do you guys think? I'd suggest adding this to the list of potential changes if there is any major CRT in the works.

That and this, which hasn't made any progress for a while now despite valid arguments (IMO) having been presented on the table.

 

[Axscell]

Can I give Touma his esper-related abilities now

Touma has esper abilities?

 

[XDragnoir]

On another note, isn't this literally textbook concept manipulation from Alice?

We currently list it as Law hax, I particularly don't think it fits concept hax, at best you could argue for type 3 but that doesn't change much IMO.

 

[MrOMG]

Okay man, that means they all have their own Hazards and that's it until there's evidence there's any thing else to it, because we know Crowley who is specifically someone with the same ability doesn't have anything else from that.

As I said Crowley's Hazard are not important. What is important is this quote, which is pretty much a quote from the Guidebook, which says that Sephiroth is the spiritual world of the human world.

Agnesse SS. This book also reinforces the fact that mages are forced to create a world/temple to use magic, which causes the current Phase to be distorted.

That's literally wrong, Phase related things can only come into being after the existence of us human beings as we are the ones who created the Phases with our religions, all of them may have their "creator god" but the sheer fact these creator gods were created by us means they can't have created the World no matter how you look at it, you're literally trying to say that beings from human imagination are equal to the actual creator of the World because they both have the title of creator of the world, even tho the former didn't actually create it.

But unlike Phases, the 4 Worlds of Kabbalah weren't created by human imagination so it doesn't fall into that same problem of being created by us abd our phases (meaning its creator god is the closest we have so far to an actual god that created the whole setting).

No, think back to NT10. Humans did not create angels and gods. Angels and Gods existed in their worlds as formless energies, but it was humanity's faith that gave them a certain form and image. That is why the appearance of Phase beings can differ from the real angels and gods. That is Phase is only energy which has received an image and form because of the faith of humanity.
So people didn't create the 6 worlds of Buddhism or the 30 worlds of Aetir.

Okay? That range does not translate into his power just like we saw with Coronzon's Ceremony, meanwhile Aleister was talking about using IB to strengthen someone as that's the only similarity between both Ceremonies and we know the final result Aleister would achieve is beyond what Fiamma did, Aiwass > LPSaD

In our case, range also means power, because Fiamma was able to affect structures beyond the Four Worlds Surface. Aleister also said that Fiamma's ceremony was very similar to his ceremony. Aleister wanted to manipulate the thickness of the phases and then create some sort of temple. Fiamma accomplished a similar feat of summoning the Heaven Phase to Earth(possibly also manipulating the thickness of the Heaven Phase), and he also had enough energy to complete his ceremony, but Fiamma failed. And Fiamma is comparable to the Second Adam who saved the Tree of Sephiroth from external attack[?]. But the power of Aiwass is unknown, unless one starts reading the actual occult books by Aleister Crowley, which states that Aiwass is 10=1, meaning it is at the very top of the top, or Keter.

What? First, they're talking about Coronzon's vessel, so even if that was true that doesn't mean much.

Second, where is it implied Michael could resist Coronzon? It makes it very clear the power of an Archangel isn't enough to match Coronzon.


I really doubt there's an actual relationship given I just gave you a quote where it's clearly stated they're from a different pyramid altogether and one is from the Sephiroth hierarchy meanwhile the other is limited to a Phase.

As for the bit about destroying the universe, I do agree with you, but I don't agree it's in the straightforward way you're implying there, Gabriel, Fiamma and Marian all distorted the world to varying degrees and it doesn't scale to AP in any of these cases IMO.

Being in a human body Coronzon becomes weaker. She can't use most of her powers, due to the lack of purity in the Surface in the human world, and is forced to use human magic, and because of the strongest attacks, her body is unable to move. For her to use the human body is like torture.

Because despite the huge amount of artifacts(or other analogs) within England, the character thought specifically about the power of the archangel, which could be given out to everyone like in OT18.

I really doubt there's an actual relationship given I just gave you a quote where it's clearly stated they're from a different pyramid altogether and one is from the Sephiroth hierarchy meanwhile the other is limited to a Phase.

In this text, it is unclear what was meant by the other pyramid. Was it meant that the Coronzon is a strange angel or is the Coronzon simply stronger than the Archangels, as she is able to manipulate her soul rank. The Archangels and Coronzon exist in the same hierarchy, they could even exist in parallel hierarchies as many mythologies have soul rank analogs. The same Coronzon in general from Enochian magic, it was later Aleister added it to the Tree of Sephiroth, as the 30 spheres of Aetir and the Tree of Sephiroth are comparable to each other, so passing through Aetir is similar to ascending through the Tree of Sephiroth. Therefore, I myself do not understand who is stronger and who is weaker.

As for the bit about destroying the universe, I do agree with you, but I don't agree it's in the straightforward way you're implying there, Gabriel, Fiamma and Marian all distorted the world to varying degrees and it doesn't scale to AP in any of these cases IMO.


A Level 6 for sure, the ones we have currently tho aren't even close.

But in NT10 it is explicitly stated that if not for the Marian barrier, the power released by the Phase Beings would have caused an event of the level of Angel's Fall, or at worst would have simply destroyed the world. NT20 also talks about Gabriel being able to destroy the world. And we're talking about weakened Phase Beings whose soul ranks have been downgraded to human level, because an Angel-level being cannot exist on the Surface of the Four Worlds, due to the level of purity. In short, the Phase Beings must have enough energy to destroy the world.

A Level 6 for sure, the ones we have currently tho aren't even close.

Btw, Level 6 is not a SYSTEM, but only the beginning of beginnings.

学園都市究極の目的とされるSYSTEM。 「神ならぬ 身にて天上の意思に辿り着くもの」という言葉通りに解釈 し、真理に到達する第一歩として人間を超える=「レベル6」 を生み出すことを目標とする研究者も多い。しかし「超能 力者(レベル5)」をさらに超えた高みは、通常の能力開 発では到達できないところにある。そのため、人体に大き な負担のかかる能力体結晶を用いた木原をはじめ、非人道 的な試みがなされているのだ。その一方で、小萌先生のよ うに能力者の6割を占める「無能力者(レベル0)」にこ そSYSTEM到達へのカギがあると考える者も少なから ず存在する。いずれにせよ、SYSTEM自体、全く未知 のものであり、レベル6の創造すらもそこに至る第一歩にし か過ぎないことだけは確かである。Guidebook Railgun 2S

Well I agree, I don't think we can change each other's opinion. And Kamachi isn't helping by not explaining things properly.