[Toaru character addition to a profile] Adding the Will to the Sisters page

[Churronzon]

But they disagree lol.

 

[Doggo]

rip

 

[Churronzon]

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[Churronzon]

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[Doggo]

just link this in the discussion thread bruh

 

[Churronzon]

I already did in two of my comments

 

[Churronzon]

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[Churronzon]

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[Churronzon]

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[Churronzon]

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[Axscell]

Abstract Existence: Leaning towards agree here. Looking at the general description of 'Abstract Existence ', it does seem to pretty much describe what she is. But on the other hand, there is the condition given that one has to be granted immortality by existing in such a state, which I guess one could say is doubtful, considering the fact that affecting the sisters does affect her nature. But from the way she described herself (and the way the narration talked about her), she does seem to have a kind of immortality thanks to it. Specifically, this passage here leads me to believe that she would survive even if all the sisters that supposedly make her up were to be killed or destroyed (which is the main argument against granting her abstract existence):

"Anyway, the network forming me contains information from both the Misakas who are currently still alive and the Misakas that are currently dead /return. In other words, I’m alive while dead and dead while alive /return.”

“…”

“If you look at the entire system of 20,000, about half of the cluster has been taken out, but don’t think of it like an apple sliced in half /return. It’s more complex than that and it’s all mixed together like Schrödinger's cat /return. I know it’s more romantic to think the moon doesn’t exist anywhere when no one can see it, but I’m in a strange state that no normal human can reach even when having a near death experience /return.”

“…”

“That means you can’t call me part of the living or the dead /return. And Othinus only has software to handle those two cases, so I slipped through the cracks and she can’t manipulate me /return. Unfortunately, I can’t be certain about any of this because it’s related to technology from outside Academy City /return.”

Transduality and Immortality type 5: Agree with type 1 transduality. Again, the narration makes this pretty clear cut IMO. She even uses Schrödinger's cat as an analogy to make a point of the paradoxical nature of her existence.

Law Manipulation: Disagree for the same reasons given by DT.

Immortality type 9: Likewise, disagree here. I don't think there's enough information to grant her this.

 

[Churronzon]

So can I get an answer to downgrading the law manipulation of the Magic Gods and upgrading the Clonoth Tree? No one answered that.

 

[Axscell]

So can I get an answer to downgrading the law manipulation of the Magic Gods and upgrading the Clonoth Tree? No one answered that.

Idk about this tbh. I mean even back then, pretty much everyone seemed to disagree with DT's stance. And besides, I don't really think it's even the same thing as what you are proposing here, unless of course you are proposing that the MG's law manipulation should be changed to mathematics manipulation, physics manipulation etc (as DT was years ago). If so, I've got to disagree. IMO, the LN makes it pretty clear cut that the MGs have law manipulation.

As you said yourself, it's never been clarified whether their law manipulation could affect the four worlds, but I see no reason to assume it couldn't, considering a relatively simple spell performed by a mere human could.

Suppose Chroronzon's law manipulation is somehow superior though, is there even a way for us to quantify it? I mean is there anything like layers for law manipulation or something like that?

 

[Churronzon]

Idk about this tbh. I mean even back then, pretty much everyone seemed to disagree with DT's stance. And besides, I don't really think it's even the same thing as what you are proposing here, unless of course you are proposing that the MG's law manipulation should be changed to mathematics manipulation, physics manipulation etc (as DT was years ago). If so, I've got to disagree. IMO, the LN makes it pretty clear cut that the MGs have law manipulation.

Yeah, I could go to DT's version, but I would rather specify that they have control over laws of the material world. So I would be adding a single word.

As you said yourself, it's never been clarified whether their law manipulation could affect the four worlds, but I see no reason to assume it couldn't, considering a relatively simple spell performed by a mere human could.

That simple spell only did so because an unknown event occurred that caused the Distortion of the Laws of the World which allows the four worlds to be manipulated, prior to the start of the series. It's not something anyone could easily replicate.

“No one realizes it.” Fiamma’s words alone resounded through the area. “No one realizes
it and yet the world continues on. Magic is activated. Did you know that all four of the
major elements have begun to distort slightly? This world is in much more of a crisis
than you realize. Someone has to do something about it.”

“You...don’t mean...” Vento shook her head as she spoke what she had no proof of.
“Angel Fall left that much of an after effect?”

“Quite the opposite. It was because that distortion to the great laws existed that an
opening existed that allowed such a ridiculous spell to be activated in the first place.
...Do you understand now? That’s enough then, right?”.

However, you do bring up a good point in that Grand Magic and its effects were already a known concept to Kanzaki and Tsuchimikado.
If anyone, including Magic Gods, are still capable of dragging an angel down to the rank of human and then occupying its empty seat, that'd be a scary thought.

“Let’s explain it a little further. This spell called Angel Fall includes the ideas of the Kabbalah. Have you heard of it?”

[...]

“The so-called Tree of Life is basically a hierarchy of identities, separating God, angels, humans and souls into ten levels on a pyramid; this is the basic concept.”

“It’s based on the picture drawn out to show that God reigns supreme over everything. Well, simply put, this picture shows that humans can only reach a certain level, and beyond is God’s territory, so it can’t be invaded.”

“The number of humans and angels were already decided, thus in ordinary circumstances, humans are definitely unable to be promoted to become angels. In contrast, angels are never to be demoted to be humans.”

“Because every single realm is already filled up.”

Following off what Tsuchimikado said, Kanzaki continued, “But this spell called Angel Fall is just as what the name implies, it can force an angel that’s in the heavens to become a human. And the human realm is like a cup full of water, if a drop of angel is to fall in—what will happen to the cup of water?”

Anyways, unless Magic Gods have feats/statements for distorting the Four Worlds, their law manipulation should be restricted to Assiah. They can't change the laws to allow them to enter heaven for example.

“You don’t know? The world is divided into different categories: human, animal, deva,
preta. But there is no path allowed for those like us who are known as Magic Gods. Yet we
did not rise to this position through the normal means, so the gates of the Pure Land or
of heaven will not open for us.”

Suppose Chroronzon's law manipulation is somehow superior though, is there even a way for us to quantify it? I mean is there anything like layers for law manipulation or something like that?

I don't believe she has law manipulation and if she did I wouldn't be interested in quantifying it, but instead just describing what it accomplished verbatim.

 

[Axscell]

Yeah, I could go to DT's version, but I would rather specify that they have control over laws of the material world. So I would be adding a single word.

What does this entail in a vsbattle sense though? I mean as far as the site is concerned, the MGs do have law manipulation (which I guess you're disputing from your comment above). And AFAIK, there isn't really any layers or types (like concept type 1, type 2 etc) to detail superiority of say one type of law manipulation over the other.

That simple spell only did so because an unknown event occurred that caused the Distortion of the Laws of the World which allows the four worlds to be manipulated, prior to the start of the series. It's not something anyone could easily replicate.

Fairs.

Anyways, unless Magic Gods have feats/statements for distorting the Four Worlds, their law manipulation should be restricted to Assiah. They can't change the laws to allow them to enter heaven for example.

Going through Tsuchimikado's explanation again, his explanation of heaven, angels, humans, and how their relationship with one another works seems to suggest that the supposed superiority that has been mentioned in the LN is simply that of identity and the rank that each identity has (God>angels>humans) rather than that of anything tangible (like angels being stronger than humans, no matter what). So when they say something like the MGs can't enter or reach heaven, that just really means that a magic god can't ever change or upgrade their identity to that of an angel or God (i.e a Magic God will always remain human no matter how strong they get), rather than there being an actual physical realm like heaven that they can't enter or reach, especially when we have examples in-universe of said realm being destroyed by one of them.

“Let’s explain it a little further. This spell called Angel Fall includes the ideas of the Kabbalah. Have you heard of it?”

[...]

“The so-called Tree of Life is basically a hierarchy of identities, separating God, angels, humans and souls into ten levels on a pyramid; this is the basic concept.”

“It’s based on the picture drawn out to show that God reigns supreme over everything. Well, simply put, this picture shows that humans can only reach a certain level, and beyond is God’s territory, so it can’t be invaded.”

“The number of humans and angels were already decided, thus in ordinary circumstances, humans are definitely unable to be promoted to become angels. In contrast, angels are never to be demoted to be humans.”

“Because every single realm is already filled up.”

Following off what Tsuchimikado said, Kanzaki continued, “But this spell called Angel Fall is just as what the name implies, it can force an angel that’s in the heavens to become a human. And the human realm is like a cup full of water, if a drop of angel is to fall in—what will happen to the cup of water?”

Now the explanation of hierarchy of identities could point to something like saying that each identity is a higher infinity/dimension, inaccesible to those below them, but IMO the concept hasn't been explored or clarified enough in the LNs for us to try going down that road.

I don't believe she has law manipulation and if she did I wouldn't be interested in quantifying it, but instead just describing what it accomplished verbatim.

My bad. Because she basically decides who ascends and descends the tree, I kinda assumed you were referring to Choronzon having the supposedly superior law manipulation in relation to the MGs. I'm guessing you were referring to Accelerator/Clonoth, right? Anyways, that's who my initial question was meant to be directed at.

 

[Churronzon]

What does this entail in a vsbattle sense though? I mean as far as the site is concerned, the MGs do have law manipulation (which I guess you're disputing from your comment above). And AFAIK, there isn't really any layers or types (like concept type 1, type 2 etc) to detail superiority of say one type of law manipulation over the other.

It matters in an indexing sense and in the sense that they simply can't change the laws of higher realms of the Sephiroth.

that just really means that a magic god can't ever change or upgrade their identity to that of an angel or God (i.e a Magic God will always remain human no matter how strong they get)

agreed

rather than there being an actual physical realm like heaven that they can't enter or reach,

Well Samuel Mathers was astral projecting somewhere.

“Mina, if it comes to it, I can release myself from these physical bonds and go on an astral
journey. Can I count on you to keep my physical body safe?”

“But I am Great Demon Coronzon, the only demon to have gained my own body of flesh
and blood. Not even Satan and Beelzebub could manage that. The tree is not just to ascend.
Descending it every once in a while can be fun. For better or for worse, this cage of flesh
stabilizes my soul and makes me sturdy enough to remain unshaken when I command an
energy very similar to Telesma.”

Telesma could be used to perform a safe summoning by cutting away a small amount
within a temple. It could also be removed and imbued into a sword or even directly sent
into the human body. It would have been difficult for a human to do the same thing. They
would only be confused if they were told to collapse their physical form and enter a sword.

That was what this was.

One could cast off their cage of flesh and ascend the Sephiroth to reach the knowledge
there, but that made them more susceptible to external forces. On the other hand,
descending the tree placed many different physical restrictions on them, but it gave them
a sturdier self. Normal magicians would hate an “unchanging self” as much as a stubborn
mind or stiff joints, but it was all in how it was used.

Coronzon initially exists in the hidden 11th sphere of the Sephiroth and had to descend to the physical Malkuth.

Magic Gods would not be able to change the laws to allow them to cross the Abyss without making a contract with a transcendent being. Otherwise, Aleister would not have prevented himself from joining Gremlin so he could attempt to cross the Abyss with Coronzon.

“Your attempt to destroy magic is quite eccentric as well. If you had turned that obsession
in the right direction, you could have been a part of Gremlin too.”

“I made some adjustments to myself to ensure that would not happen. That way I can
control something different than you bizarre magicians who can only live in a distorted
phase.”

Not sure if this topic is even relevant.

especially when we have examples in-universe of said realm being destroyed by one of them.

which I disagreed with on the discussion thread.

Now the explanation of hierarchy of identities could point to something like saying that each identity is a higher infinity/dimension, inaccesible to those below them, but IMO the concept hasn't been explored or clarified enough in the LNs for us to try going down that road.

I don't know why you're taking it so far. I just want to clarify that Magic Gods have no authority over those domains.

 

[Axscell]

Bump. Any update on this?

 

[Churronzon]

I forgot I still want a response to this comment so I guess I'll be bumping it from time to time.

---

I had also neglected to add justifications in the OP for some abilities found in the sandbox so that needs evaluation regardless.

Social Influencing (Stopped Touma from committing suicide after Othinus had shown him a perfect world without tragedy that could not be maintained if he remains alive, and spurred him into fighting Othinus throughout billions of hells.)

In that infinite hell, the Will of the Sisters had saved him by saying he could pursue his
own selfishness over the ideal of saving the world.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 10 Chapter 16 Part 4

“I was the one that urged you on, so I’ll stick with you if they get mad at you /return. Even if they treat you like an evil demon king, we can start out as just the two of us /return. And then you can work to gradually reclaim your shattered circle of friends /return. It won’t be easy, it will leave scars on the most sensitive part of a person, and it will directly affect the survival of people around the world /return. But /backspace, it will all work out in the end /return. I’ll stick with you until it does☆ /return.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 9 Chapter 7 Part 8

Limited memory manipulation (Can access the memories of the dead Sisters) - If it's not an ability, I'll just list it in the techniques section.

Power bestowal (Granted Accelerator access to the Clonoth Tree, platinum wings, and additional calculation power.)
(I'm not sure about the additional calc power, but it's listed in Accelerator's profile)

 

[Axscell]

It's fine by me if people want to reject my NEP hypothesis due to insufficient evidence, but I want to posit a logic puzzle.

What would happen to the Will if time was once again rewound and the consciousness and egos of the Sisters were never aggregated by the Misaka Network?
Would she disappear into nonexistence or was she always existent but not defined by this data?

Let's run both scenarios.

If she would, in the practical sense, stop existing, she would then reform from a state of nonexistence if the Sisters' consciousness were once again aggregated by the Misaka Network.

If she wouldn't stop existing, then how long would it mean she has existed as a blank slate of consciousness or as "something else" undefined by anything prior to the creation of the Misaka Network? This would also mean she's not fundamentally reliant on the Misaka Network to exist; only reliant on it to define her.

By Occam's razor, the second option is probably the more correct of the two, especially since the LN itself does refer to that "something else" state.

Social Influencing (Stopped Touma from committing suicide after Othinus had shown him a perfect world without tragedy that could not be maintained if he remains alive, and spurred him into fighting Othinus throughout billions of hells.)

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 10 Chapter 16 Part 4

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 9 Chapter 7 Part 8

This seems fine. Agree.

Limited memory manipulation (Can access the memories of the dead Sisters) - If it's not an ability, I'll just list it in the techniques section.

It would probably be better to just list this under the techniques section.

Power bestowal (Granted Accelerator access to the Clonoth Tree, platinum wings, and additional calculation power.)
(I'm not sure about the additional calc power, but it's listed in Accelerator's profile)

Limited power bestowal would probably be better tbh. The Clonoth stuff specifically required the help of Qliphah Puzzle, and I don't think it's an ability they could've granted anyone. For the additional calculation power justification, doesn't that have more to do with the network of the actual sisters rather than Will herself?

 

[Churronzon]

Bump

 

[Axscell]

I think we're gonna need some staff input if this is gonna go anywhere tbh

 

[Churronzon]

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[Churronzon]

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[Churronzon]

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[Aseka]

Toaru's thread never got attention except that H1-B thread

 

[Churronzon]

It's w/e; not like this CRT isn't controversial.

 

[Rez]

This crt went for so long some of the links died.

 

[Churronzon]

Thanks for telling me. I didn't realize the links were broken since they were still visible to me for some reason
Think I fixed them all

 

[Churronzon]

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[Churronzon]

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[Churronzon]

Omfg the nonduality page changed like 3 times since this thread was made.

 

[Axscell]

Omfg the nonduality page changed like 3 times since this thread was made.

Do the changes affect the proposal in any way?