Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Piamma]

I don't get the question, isn't the Ceremony of Mo Athair's entire deal exactly that?

Like, saying it wouldn't is pretty going against the plot.

Othinus destroying it tho... Strange, it's just really strange as I don't recall any statement directly saying she did or didn't affect it during NT9.

There is no separate mention in NT9 that she specifically destroyed or was involved in Pure World.

However, according to NT 10, Othinus is mentioned as having annihilated "all" but the Hidden Phase.

In Nt 12 and 13, Mgs comes up as dealing with all elements, dimensions, Phase/ Earth, Universe, World, so of course "All" above includes Phase.

Pure world is also mentioned as the lowest Phase, so it is correct to view it as destroyed.

Precisely, Othinus and other Mgs manipulate the existing world by creating Phases and inserting them into the world.

This is what is described when throwing the Gungnir, but it is also stated that breaking the walls of all Phases and Shooting the spear may strictly be about Inserting in a Phase that produces such a result.

It is just a difference about the essence.

Aleister's plan with Aiwass is to shatter all mythological and religious Phases except the Pure world, which has pure physical laws, and to extinguish the existence of magic.

Mgs can insert their own Phases they have created and destroy all existing Phases and they themselves are not constrained in any way to use magic. This has already been proven by Othinus.

In the case of Coronzon, she destroys the Phase of the lowest physical law. As a result, all the mythological and religious Phases overlapping on top are all destroyed.
It is as if removing the first floor from a 10-story building causes all the upper 9 floors to collapse.

The result of all three methods is the same in that all Phases are destroyed.

However, the methods and processes are quite different.

 

[Churronzon]

Coronzon's ceremony which destroys the Pure World would kill every immortal being. That was the whole point.

However, she gave a loving look to the powerless boy who had no choice but to accept this.
She seemed to approve of his existence as a life within the natural cycle where he would
eventually die and break down within the soil.

“Imagine Breaker has wandered the edges of history as a reference point for the world. It
has existed in a variety of forms: people, objects, places, and buildings. But why does it
break? If it merely pointed to an uncorrupted world, it would have a number of different
reactions, such as deflecting, diverting, and slipping through. And yet it chooses to destroy
the supernatural things it cannot accept. That is my point here. In its natural state, the
world bares its fangs against all things. If the conditions are right, death is the natural fate
for all people and creatures. That which cannot be broken down must be rewritten into
that which can, even if that means smashing it to pieces. That is the perfectly natural cycle
you find in this world.”

“Coronzon is not plotting to earn some kind of benefit in this world, like world domination
or becoming a billionaire. In fact, she rejects the very existence of those fixed, immovable,
and eternal winners. She thinks that all things should break eventually so they can be
broken down and prepare for the next thing to be born. Her definition of evil is anything
that breaks the cycle, such as immortality or an eternal kingdom.”

“It might look like the flow of time mercilessly wears down all things, but there is far too
much exceptional salvation in this world: Imagine Breaker, the Magic Gods, the original
grimoires, resurrected Lilith, Aiwass who resurrected her...and me, Great Demon
Coronzon.”

 

[XDragnoir]

Coronzon's ceremony which destroys the Pure World would kill every immortal being. That was the whole point.

Yes, so again, why did you do previous question?

"So are we subscribing to the idea that destroying the pure world would or wouldn't destroy the higher sephirah?"

Why would we ever go with the idea it wouldn't destroy the higher sephirah when that's exactly what it does?

There is no separate mention in NT9 that she specifically destroyed or was involved in Pure World.

However, according to NT 10, Othinus is mentioned as having annihilated "all" but the Hidden Phase.

The result of all three methods is the same in that all Phases are destroyed.

However, the methods and processes are quite different.

Yeah, yeah, my point is that, at least to my understanding, MGs weren't able to directly affect the Pure World as their power is literally the ability to create/alter/remove layers that are on top of it... but reading some things again, Othinus implies that the Black World is the Pure World in NT9

 

[Churronzon]

Why would we ever go with the idea it wouldn't destroy the higher sephirah when that's exactly what it does?

Dunno. I suggested the same

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

wait hold on
speaking of Corozon and her ceremony
if Coronzon's Ceremony would destroy all of creation according to her profile
why doesn't she have H1-C range with Complete Ceremony of Mo Athair?

 

[Churronzon]

Forgot about range; incomplete ceremony would be "at least intergalactic"

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

at least multi-galaxy level with Incomplete Ceremony of Mo Athair for being able to blow half of the universe
I wonder what's the exact number for the AP

 

[XDragnoir]

Dunno.

You don't know why you asked something?

I suggested the same

That has nothing to do with what we're talking about right now tho.

 

[Axscell]

To use Index's "toy box" analogy, I think it's fair to conclude that Othinus destroyed everything within the toy box, barring the Hidden World (?), without destroying the actual toy box itself. Using this analogy, Coronzon's ceremony would've destroyed the actual toy box itself, considering the fact that it was going to destroy her very self too, which exists outside/beyond the toy box. Idk, does this make sense?

On the topic of the Hidden World, is that even something that exists within the toy box? The answer would probably be yes, if we go by Index's explanation, but I'm not quite sure. If it is, then that would mean that even realms outside of existence would still be considered to be confined within the toy box. Not sure if we could get a clear answer without more info from future LN's, but it is an interesting idea to ponder nevertheless.

 

[XDragnoir]

To use Index's "toy box" analogy, I think it's fair to conclude that Othinus destroyed everything within the toy box, barring the Hidden World (?), without destroying the actual toy box itself. Using this analogy, Coronzon's ceremony would've destroyed the actual toy box itself, considering the fact that it was going to destroy her very self too, which exists outside/beyond the toy box. Idk, does this make sense?

I mean, it depends, if Othinus destroyed the Pure World like the others were saying (I don't think she did) then her destruction would be on the exact same scale as Coronzon's, there's no reason one would affect the entire thing and the other wouldn't.

But since I don't agree with Othinus destroying the Pure World, then yeah, Coronzon destroyed more of the World than Othinus did.

On the topic of the Hidden World, is that even something that exists within the toy box? The answer would probably be yes, if we go by Index's explanation, but I'm not quite sure. If it is, then that would mean that even realms outside of existence would still be considered to be confined within the toy box. Not sure if we could get a clear answer without more info from future LN's, but it is an interesting idea to ponder nevertheless.

Well, given how it's still a phase, I'd say it's still part of the toy box and there's not really much to elaborate beyond that and it doesn't change anything one way or another.

 

[Piamma]

To use Index's "toy box" analogy, I think it's fair to conclude that Othinus destroyed everything within the toy box, barring the Hidden World (?), without destroying the actual toy box itself. Using this analogy, Coronzon's ceremony would've destroyed the actual toy box itself, considering the fact that it was going to destroy her very self too, which exists outside/beyond the toy box. Idk, does this make sense?

On the topic of the Hidden World, is that even something that exists within the toy box? The answer would probably be yes, if we go by Index's explanation, but I'm not quite sure. If it is, then that would mean that even realms outside of existence would still be considered to be confined within the toy box. Not sure if we could get a clear answer without more info from future LN's, but it is an interesting idea to ponder nevertheless.

The box analogy that Index gave is extremely unreliable.

She only has knowledge up to the MGs and then spouts inaccurate speculations about what the MGs do after that.

Critically, she is unable to analyze even the infinitely weakened Nephthys magic of Nt 14 volumes.

Not only that.
She doesn't even know the flame of phases, as Aleister pointed out.

 

[Piamma]

I mean, it depends, if Othinus destroyed the Pure World like the others were saying (I don't think she did) then her destruction would be on the exact same scale as Coronzon's, there's no reason one would affect the entire thing and the other wouldn't.

But since I don't agree with Othinus destroying the Pure World, then yeah, Coronzon destroyed more of the World than Othinus did.


Well, given how it's still a phase, I'd say it's still part of the toy box and there's not really much to elaborate beyond that and it doesn't change anything one way or another.

Othinus created a Phase in which all mythological and religious Phases, including Pure world, were destroyed and inserted it into the world.
The result is the same: at least until the Phase inserted by Othinus is destroyed, Pure world will cease to exist as well.

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

To use Index's "toy box" analogy, I think it's fair to conclude that Othinus destroyed everything within the toy box, barring the Hidden World (?), without destroying the actual toy box itself. Using this analogy, Coronzon's ceremony would've destroyed the actual toy box itself, considering the fact that it was going to destroy her very self too, which exists outside/beyond the toy box. Idk, does this make sense?

On the topic of the Hidden World, is that even something that exists within the toy box? The answer would probably be yes, if we go by Index's explanation, but I'm not quite sure. If it is, then that would mean that even realms outside of existence would still be considered to be confined within the toy box. Not sure if we could get a clear answer without more info from future LN's, but it is an interesting idea to ponder nevertheless.

This seems fair. Another argument against Othinus nuking the Pure World would be that it supposedly contradicts the complete destruction brought forth by the Ceremony of Mo Athair as all would be for naught if special layers like the Hidden World are not destroyed too. Is Hidden World even completely destroyed before MGs stepping into the surface world?

So are we subscribing to the idea that destroying the pure world would or wouldn't destroy the higher sephirah?

Is destroying the Pure World evidently the only thing the Ceremony would be doing?

“First of all, Coronzon will place the Queen Britannia’s mobile
temple at a specific point and attempt to hijack the United Kingdom using the Scottish
system she can access with the three Honours of Scotland and the Stone of Scone. Her
goal is to destroy the world. In the first stage, she will have all seven billion humans kill
each other and she will use that as an opening to descend to the very bottom of the
Sephiroth. Once at the very foundation of the world, she will pour in a massive amount of
power to forcibly destroy it. All of the phases overlap, but the gods of legend are not
supported by that alone. Heaven and hell cannot exist entirely independently, so if the
piece at the base is destroyed, the bottom will fall out.”

It appears to me foremost an operation on the Sephiroth, which we might assume beyond the capacities of MGs. If, we take Madam Horos' explanation not as a fraud like she is.

 

[Piamma]

To use Index's "toy box" analogy, I think it's fair to conclude that Othinus destroyed everything within the toy box, barring the Hidden World (?), without destroying the actual toy box itself. Using this analogy, Coronzon's ceremony would've destroyed the actual toy box itself, considering the fact that it was going to destroy her very self too, which exists outside/beyond the toy box. Idk, does this make sense?

On the topic of the Hidden World, is that even something that exists within the toy box? The answer would probably be yes, if we go by Index's explanation, but I'm not quite sure. If it is, then that would mean that even realms outside of existence would still be considered to be confined within the toy box. Not sure if we could get a clear answer without more info from future LN's, but it is an interesting idea to ponder nevertheless.

Let's take a slow look at why Index's metaphor of the box is wrong.

1. In Nt vol. 10, Index and Birdway extracted only the destructive power of Gungnir from the minds of Kamijo and Otinus, and made Birdway reproduce the destructive power of the Mgs only once in her lifetime.

However, she had no idea what would happen to the world if that spear were thrown.
In fact, kamijou asked Index, "Do you know what happened to us?"

Index's answer to that was.

'I don't know anything at all, not even the exact details. However, if the spear was completed, the Mgs wouldn't have attacked us physically.
In fact, the world was completely destroyed once, and she couldn't imagine it until she changed the world by hundreds of millions to break the spirit of one Kamijou.

In this part we can see for the first time that we have no idea what her completed Mgs can do.

2. that she knows nothing about the completed Mgs is revealed once again in Nt14.
Even if her power wanes, the opponent is still a true god; her magic cannot be disturbed by human knowledge such as 103,000 books.

3. Hidden Phase is a hidden phase outside the world that even Othinus, who reached the Mgs, does not know.

index doesn't even know that Hidden Phase exists.
What is the reason for forcing the Hidden Phase into the "toy box"?

 

[XDragnoir]

Othinus created a Phase in which all mythological and religious Phases, including Pure world, were destroyed and inserted it into the world.

Where is that part about the Pure World stated?

 

[Piamma]

Where is that part about the Pure World stated?

However, according to NT 10, Othinus is mentioned as having annihilated "all" but the Hidden Phase.
In Nt 12 and 13, Mgs comes up as dealing with all elements, dimensions, Phase/ Earth, Universe, World, so of course "All" above includes Phase.
Pure world is also mentioned as the lowest Phase, so it is correct to view it as destroyed.
It is not a simple character statement or idea, but the part that the writer refers to as a result of the complete destruction.
It is only natural that Pure World would be included in "All" unless there is a description or statement that denies or contradicts it.

If you don't mind, I am attaching all relevant references to volumes Nt10, Nt12 and Nt13 as the original Japanese text.

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

However, according to NT 10, Othinus is mentioned as having annihilated "all" but the Hidden Phase.
In Nt 12 and 13, Mgs comes up as dealing with all elements, dimensions, Phase/ Earth, Universe, World, so of course "All" above includes Phase.
Pure world is also mentioned as the lowest Phase, so it is correct to view it as destroyed.
It is not a simple character statement or idea, but the part that the writer refers to as a result of the complete destruction.
It is only natural that Pure World would be included in "All" unless there is a description or statement that denies or contradicts it.

If you don't mind, I am attaching all relevant references to volumes Nt10, Nt12 and Nt13 as the original Japanese text.

Regarding the source text, I notice that in NT10 epilogue the black Hidden World is described as 一枚 whereas the foundational layer is consistently described as 層. Is there any significance to this distinction?

I think the NT22 statement

この層だけ残して他の全ての位相を破壊したる．．．

is by far the strongest indication that Pure World is also a phase.

 

[Piamma]

Regarding the source text, I notice that in NT10 epilogue the black Hidden World is described as 一枚 whereas the foundational layer is consistently described as 層. Is there any significance to this distinction?

I think the NT22 statement

is by far the strongest indication that Pure World is also a phase.

一枚 means one , number of pieces.
It means that only one sheet exists.

層 refers to a FLOOR.
This means that Pure World is the lowest existing Phase.

is by far the strongest indication that Pure World is also a phase.

:
I have always said that since Pure World is one of the types of Phase, it is also included in "everything" that Othinus destroyed.
Why are you asking me this?

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Why are you asking me this?

I was only asking the first question regarding the word choices Kamachi made. The second part was just that, to the extent of my knowledge, a stronger indication that the Pure World is categorized as a Phase. Because I couldn't recall a better excerpt from the Japanese text with a stronger logical implication.
Sorry if you feel I was overly redundant.

 

[Piamma]

Where is that part about the Pure World stated?

oh i see
In Nt. 9, she describes Aleister to kamiJou as a "silver star,"
she refered to the layers of pure physical laws.

In nt18

This is also mentioned again in Nt18 when Othinus describes Aiwass.

Aiwass exists at the top of such a theory.
His name appears nowhere.
This world is established by many layers of phases on the magical side on top of the physical laws.

Aiwass exists at the lowest level. He is an angel in a world of pure physical laws.

This is not the case for Index, which doesn't even know that the Hidden Phase exists.
Othinus knows the structure of the world as well as Aleister does.

 

[XDragnoir]

oh i see
In Nt. 9, she describes Aleister to kamiJou as a "silver star,"
she refered to the layers of pure physical laws.

In nt18

This is also mentioned again in Nt18 when Othinus describes Aiwass.

Aiwass exists at the top of such a theory.
His name appears nowhere.
This world is established by many layers of phases on the magical side on top of the physical laws.

Aiwass exists at the lowest level. He is an angel in a world of pure physical laws.

This is not the case for Index, which doesn't even know that the Hidden Phase exists.
Othinus knows the structure of the world as well as Aleister does.

You didn't prove she destroyed it at all, the very quote she refers to Aleister as the silver star she also talks about the Pure World and no where does she say it was destroyed, indeed, she implies that's where they are.

 

[XDragnoir]

Regarding the source text, I notice that in NT10 epilogue the black Hidden World is described as 一枚 whereas the foundational layer is consistently described as 層. Is there any significance to this distinction?

I think the NT22 statement

is by far the strongest indication that Pure World is also a phase.

And about this, isn't that Japanese quote using a kanji to refer to the Pure World and after that using a different one to refer to Phases?

Anyway, I think it's pretty easy to understand all these things:

1 - The Pure World is a "phase" in the sense that both are layers of the world, but it's not a filter like what Othinus and Religions do, it's the base where the filters are placed to begin with.

2 - That's why it wasn't destroyed by Othinus, it wasn't destroyed by anyone as that would end the entire series, just like Coronzon tried.

3 - The Hidden Phase doesn't come from a religion, that's more than likely the reason Othinus didn't know about it and she couldn't even try to destroy it... because it was Hidden, that's pretty much it.

 

[Piamma]

I was only asking the first question regarding the word choices Kamachi made. The second part was just that, to the extent of my knowledge, a stronger indication that the Pure World is categorized as a Phase. Because I couldn't recall a better excerpt from the Japanese text with a stronger logical implication.
Sorry if you feel I was overly redundant.

You didn't prove she destroyed it at all, the very quote she refers to Aleister as the silver star she also talks about the Pure World and no where does she say it was destroyed, indeed, she implies that's where they are.

Look at the epilogue of Nt10.
Othinus thought he had destroyed "everything" but kamijou.

There was only one illusion there.

She thought she had destroyed everything, but in fact she had not destroyed the Hidden Phase.

At this time she definitely knew about Pure World (A layer of pure physics), so of course it was included.

To deny this, she would have to be completely unaware of the existence of the Pure World, as in the case of the "Index", or there would have to be a description that denies it.

If she can't destroy Pure World, Their illusion must be not one but two.
Is there a mistake in my explanation?

 

[Churronzon]

You don't know why you asked something?

I asked because I hadn't decided and I wanted to hear people's opinions. We stirred discussion didn't we

That has nothing to do with what we're talking about right now tho.

It's relevant in discussing whether any and all methods of destroying the Pure World would destroy the Sephiroth.

Is destroying the Pure World evidently the only thing the Ceremony would be doing?

Perhaps, although I haven't figured out what the purpose of mutually destroying 7 billion people serves when she reaches the necessary location.

It appears to me foremost an operation on the Sephiroth, which we might assume beyond the capacities of MGs. If, we take Madam Horos' explanation not as a fraud like she is.

Coronzon stated it as well.

“Of course. My job is to fix the circulation. And that creates the next age. Once, the
majority of the Sephirah were under attack. If the Second Adam had not atoned with
blood, the world would not have lasted this long. And the critical clogs are all born of
knowledge. I am the Great Demon who protects the Abyss, that hidden division of the
Sephiroth. Whatever my purpose is, I have undeniably been stained. ...Thus, I will destroy
it all. Myself and the entire Sephiroth that contains me are no exceptions. Partial
destruction would be meaningless. If anything remains and an eternal distortion is born
from that, then it will all happen again. I will eliminate the ten spheres, the twenty-two
pathways, and the hidden eleventh symbol. Collisions between phases? Sparks and spray?
You cannot save anyone if you only treat those symptoms. All of the fundamental clogs
must be removed. All so we can pass the baton to whoever comes next.”

is by far the strongest indication that Pure World is also a phase.

Pure World is called a phase a few times. That's not really in dispute.
NT9/10 stated all but one phase was destroyed, correct.
But then Aleister states he will destroy all phases. Does that mean he intends to destroy the Pure World? no.

“I will shatter every last phase and put an end to all mysticism. It can be helped and we
need not restrain our tears and bite our lip when faced with tragedy. I will bring back the
pure world in which everyone can feel anger like normal and question it all like normal!!”

So a conclusion one could make is that neither of them are including the Pure World in their statements.
Especially since Magic Gods are relegated to a single canvas they can't recreate or duplicate.

“Yes. That leaves a struggle over resources with the other Magic Gods. We all have the
power to change everything, but there is only one world. Think of it like having ten
painters but only one canvas. If they each continually try to overwrite it as they see fit, it
would develop into a fistfight. Do you understand what I’m saying?”

 

[XDragnoir]

That and from NT9:

“The man who names himself the Silver Star seems to have been attempting to directly
tamper with the ‘pure world’ beyond all the filters…that is, the world of science that is
unaffected by religion. …Honestly, you are quite fortunate to see this. Not even the Golden
cabal of Europe that dreamed in Tibet was able to reach this point.”

Kamijou could not guess how much value this had.

If Index saw it, she might have felt differently.
____

Here she implies, pretty directly, that they are in the Pure World

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Here she implies, pretty directly, that they are in the Pure World

This actually makes things worse, since in the same section Kamachi let Touma call out Othinus

“You haven’t destroyed any of those colored glasses.”

If she somehow managed to throw Touma into the Pure World through simple spirit away as what we've seen in GT9, that almost confirms that the Pure World is destroyed along all other filter phases given how she perceived nothing left after her throwing the Gungnir.

On the other hand, this may simply mean Othinus does not think Aleister is anywhere close to removing any of the filters or their influences, while she has demonstrated to Touma that she can do this on a whim.

 

[XDragnoir]

This actually makes things worse, since in the same section Kamachi let Touma call out Othinus

Because MG can't directly destroy things, they can only create destroyed things, not only that but you think Touma of all people is the correct path to go about how this kind of thing works? The very quote I gave before already explains he doesn't comprehend the kind of place he is in.

But anyway, this doesn't make things worse as there are two options and both strengthen what I said:

1 - Her destruction, or in other words the Black World, is a filter like all others as that's how MGs work, they HAVE to add filters to control the world and if Touma said was right, the all of other filters would have been reduced to that state rather than out right destroyed, meaning the Pure World has to explicitly be there.

Or 2 - Her destruction does indeed remove the phases and "creating destruction" is just a cool way to say that, Touma simply didn't understand this and tried to say she didn't destroy things via a technicality.

I have no idea how she destroying the Pure World even makes sense as that would have outright destroyed the Hidden Phase and her powers wouldn't work anymore because she needs the canvas that is the Pure World to add her filters.

If she somehow managed to throw Touma into the Pure World through simple spirit away as what we've seen in GT9, that almost confirms that the Pure World is destroyed along all other filter phases given how she perceived nothing left after her throwing the Gungnir.

Where is any kind of spirit away implied there?

Also, Gungnir simply brought the Black World back after it was thrown, it didn't destroy things beyond what Othinus herself had already been doing the entire time, and again, she directly implies the Black World is at the very least part of the Pure World so nothing you're saying here makes sense to me.

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

...but you think Touma of all people is the correct path to go about how this kind of thing works? The very quote I gave before already explains he doesn't comprehend the kind of place he is in.

Well, Touma could be right at times, especially since this is confirmed by Othinus herself in the same part of the chapter.
Plot wise, moving away from creation to destruction would also contrast how Othinus' mind has changed throughout the volume.

I have no idea how she destroying the Pure World even makes sense as that would have outright destroyed the Hidden Phase...

I agree. The idea of Magic Gods overwhelming the Pure World just contradicts the basic plot of Toaru to an extreme extent, yet, somehow it remains the widely accepted explanation, especially within the Japanese-speaking fandom. One might argue that the Hidden World is fundamentally superior to any other phase so that it does not need the foundational layer for its own existence. I find such explanation too hard to swallow, needless to say.

But anyway, this doesn't make things worse as there are two options and both strengthen what I said:

Simply put, Othinus has not yet destroyed any phases. Until she threw Gungnir, she was strictly manipulating the phase she inserted (without destroying pre-existing phase, only altering/swapping out). This should have nothing to do with the feat of Gungnir.

...her powers wouldn't work anymore because she needs the canvas that is the Pure World to add her filters.

A plausible explanation is that she did not restore the world through normal phase manipulation;
instead she released a spell that she couldn't understand using her creative power (that belongs to a Magic God only, so far).

But she had fully destroyed the world after Gungnir’s completion. And that was not a
figure of speech or simply referring to the small planet known as Earth. She had really
and truly done it.
“When I restored the world, I released a single formula and the world endlessly expanded
from there. Just like a single speck of dust absorbs moisture to create a snow crystal. Not
even I fully understand every last part of the crystal.” -NT22R ch.3 part1

Where is any kind of spirit away implied there?

I was making an assumption. As, if she did not remove any phase, Touma can only perceive the Pure World via something akin to what Crowley did to CRC.
I don't know how adding a phase/filter can make the pure world show itself unfiltered.

Also, Gungnir simply brought the Black World back after it was thrown, it didn't destroy things beyond what Othinus herself had already been doing the entire time, and again, she directly implies the Black World is at the very least part of the Pure World so nothing you're saying here makes sense to me.

The text described it as "the walls of all the phases were crushed". And again in NT10 it is implied that every phase except one is fully destroyed post Omega World unlike what she did when creating/destroying Alpha World, Beta World etc.

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, Touma could be right at times, especially since this is confirmed by Othinus herself in the same part of the chapter.
Plot wise, moving away from creation to destruction would also contrast how Othinus' mind has changed throughout the volume.

If Touma is right and she didn't destroy anything, there is no way the Pure World was destroyed, so why are we having this discussion?

I agree. The idea of Magic Gods overwhelming the Pure World just contradicts the basic plot of Toaru to an extreme extent, yet, somehow it remains the widely accepted explanation, especially within the Japanese-speaking fandom. One might argue that the Hidden World is fundamentally superior to any other phase so that it does not need the foundational layer for its own existence. I find such explanation too hard to swallow, needless to say.

Sure, but idrc about how the Japanese fandom interprets something if that interpretation clearly doesn't make sense.

I also don't see the Hidden Phase as superior or whatever to the others.

Simply put, Othinus has not yet destroyed any phases. Until she threw Gungnir, she was strictly manipulating the phase she inserted (without destroying pre-existing phase, only altering/swapping out). This should have nothing to do with the feat of Gungnir.

Semantics and there's no reason she can't do what Gungnir does when it's thrown.

A plausible explanation is that she did not restore the world through normal phase manipulation;

Not implied at all tho.

instead she released a spell that she couldn't understand using her creative power (that belongs to a Magic God only, so far).

Isn't that what she did with IB specifically?

I was making an assumption. As, if she did not remove any phase, Touma can only perceive the Pure World via something akin to what Crowley did to CRC.

It's an assumption based on nearly nothing tho, so it doesn't help much IMO.

I don't know how adding a phase/filter can make the pure world show itself unfiltered.

Well, that doesn't really matter, Othinus implies they're there so that's it, it's Kamachi's fault for not explaining how it's possible but it's clearly what Othinus.

The text described it as "the walls of all the phases were crushed". And again in NT10 it is implied that every phase except one is fully destroyed post Omega World unlike what she did when creating/destroying Alpha World, Beta World etc.

Okay, we've been through this, that doesn't include the Pure World and simply can't, with the result of throwing Gungnir being the Black World again, no differences at all.

 

[Piamma]

Let's start by sorting out the common understanding that has been organized.

1. Pure World is a type of Phase.

2. The world of Toaru is composed of countless mythological and religious magical Phases based on the Pure World, which exists at the lowest level.

3. the Hidden Phase is a non-existent phase that exists outside the Toaru world.

Does anyone disagree with the above?

High Priest's statement in Nt vol. 13)

"We destroy and create the entire definition of the unknown scale of the world at the snap of a finger"

And according to 2, Pure World is also a Phase, so at best it is part of the parts that make up the world.

Isn't it impossible that they can destroy the whole huge aggregate called the world, but the remaining elements remain in it?

 

[Piamma]

NT9/10 stated all but one phase was destroyed, correct.
But then Aleister states he will destroy all phases. Does that mean he intends to destroy the Pure World?

The only Phase mentioned in Nt9,10 that Othinus could not be destroyed is the Hidden Phase where Tmg lived, not Pure World. This part is definitely mentioned in the text.

On the other hand, the only Phase that Aleister wanted to keep was Pure World, which is also reaffirmed twice in Nt18 and Nt22.

The two Phases they refer to are completely different subjects.

 

[Churronzon]

The only Phase mentioned in Nt9,10 that Othinus could not be destroyed is the Hidden Phase where Tmg lived, not Pure World.

Would that mean Othinus destroyed the Sephiroth by destroying the Pure World and she remade it with Imagine Breaker?

 

[Piamma]

Would that mean Othinus destroyed the Sephiroth by destroying the Pure World and she remade it with Imagine Breaker?

The above discussion of Toaru's power scailing in Japan is the reason why Mgs is rated highest in Japan.

Mgs destroys the very definition of the world.

Pure World, as a kind of Phase, is only one component of the world.

In the Japanese-speaking world, the description of an objective point of view, directly described by the writer, is preferred over dialogue in which the character's own subjectivity contributes a lot.

And yet the depiction of the world destruction of the Mgs and Othinus destroying everything except the Hidden Phase has never been denied.

This can be seen from the fact that kamachi states that the newly introduced transcendentals actually all died in Nt9, in order to defend the reference that Othinus destroyed everything except the Hidden Phase.

If that reference did not exist, it could be suspected that the transcendents actually survived when Othinus destructed world in Nt9, since it was also said that the transcendents could kill the mgs.

He prevents this suspicion in advance with afterword.

 

[Churronzon]

That didn't answer my question. I'll repeat my initial one.

Would destroying the Pure World destroy the Sephiroth? Would creating the bottom of the Sephiroth create the higher Sephirah?

The above discussion of Toaru's power scailing in Japan is the reason why Mgs is rated highest in Japan.

I always love seeing international reception and interpretation. Do we know how well the Japanese audience understands the Tree of Life?
Do they ever consider what might have created the setting? Because it's undisputable that Magic Gods didn't.

 

[Piamma]

That didn't answer my question. I'll repeat my initial one.

Would destroying the Pure World destroy the Sephiroth? Would creating the bottom of the Sephiroth create the higher Sephirah?

I always love seeing international reception and interpretation. Do we know how well the Japanese audience understands the Tree of Life?
Do they ever consider what might have created the setting? Because it's undisputable that Magic Gods didn't.

The Sephirot tree is only a class diagram of humans, gods, and angels. And it never says that this applies to all mytho-religious concepts of the Toaru.

The Mgs are those who, as they themselves say and Aleister also says, have been elevated to gods by some sort of foul play.

Unless otherwise mentioned by the writer, the current Mgs cannot be placed anywhere in Sephiroth or Qliphoth.

But Curtana, uses Michael's power, can be killed with a single blow if he hits Pure World's Aiwass, and Mgs can break Phase of Heaven, including such Michael

Kamachi once explained the power inflation between the Old and New Testment when the anime Season 3 broadcasted.

He said that the Mgs are in a totally different higher existence than the Angels.

In answer to your answer.

Coronzon states in Nt22 that the sephirot and the Qlipot are trees that now exist in the world.

The Mgs then remove the larger framework of the world.

Like Pure Wolrd, neither the sephirot nor the Qlipot can escape its destruction as they are mere components.

 

[Churronzon]

The Sephirot tree is only a class diagram of humans, gods, and angels. And it never says that this applies to all mytho-religious concepts of the Toaru.

I agree, but I'm only asking because it's important to know if a reverse process of emanation occurs when recreating the Sephiroth.

Like Pure Wolrd, neither the sephirot nor the Qlipot can escape its destruction as they are mere components.

So that means you believe Othinus recreated the Sephiroth when she recreated the Pure World?

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

well, more of restoration than recreation
Othinus with IB should restored what she destroyed
isn't that what IB does?
reference point of the world

 

[Churronzon]

Speaking of unified theories, do we consider the following wiki article applicable to all mythos within Toaru? Like does Idol theory apply to every magician no matter what myth or ideology they draw from?

As above, so below - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Piamma]

So that means you believe Othinus recreated the Sephiroth when she recreated the Pure World?

I think the word Recreation is a bit inappropriate to use right now.

As you know, IB is like a backup of the existing world, and of course the original world of Kamijou stored in IB is a Toaru World created with countless mythological and religious Phases based on Pure Wolrd.

She just used that backup information to restore the world.

This is not the same as Re-creation.

 

[Churronzon]

Might just be me but if it was not truly recreated, it does not sound like it was truly destroyed.
We're getting into semantics though