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Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

Really, Kamachi always bring up new terminology and at some point stop to explain it, and forgot about it for a long time.
 
Aseka said:
Really, Kamachi always bring up new terminology and at some point stop to explain it, and forgot about it for a long time.
Click to expand...
That's the only thing that stops him from becoming the perfect writer. He keeps introducing new ideas and characters but keeps throwing them in the trash when they are useless. Kindly remind me the last time the Amakusa and Thor were relevant, where the hell is kamisato?
 
XDragnoir said:
That was stated half way through OT18:

“That sword is like a conductor’s baton that controls the massive spell put together geographically by the 4 cultures that make up the United Kingdom. The knights could use all their strength to protect the United Kingdom while Carissa single-handedly uses Curtana to demolish Europe. …That method could actually end up working. After all, it is possible that human magic would not be able to harm her if she fully released Curtana Original’s power.”
If that happened, it would be almost impossible for anyone to rival Carissa unless a true angel or possibly a Magic God stepped forward.
___

But strangely enough this "fully releasing CO's power" here seems to be implying some sort of angelic transformation as we all know just wielding Curtana doesn't make anyone this strong... this could have something to do with the Ultimate Strike KL was talking about, but i think Kamachi simply forgot this point and we will never actually see it, meh.
Click to expand...
So something like some sort of form aside from the sort that would be needed require a true angel or mg?
 
... You know a stray thought entered my head... Was the reason that everybody was High 6-C in the past was cuz Mjolnir can power up Thor?
 
Thanks, Noir. Heh. It is very fortunate that Gab has casual vaporizing mountain feats so that Saint Tier and above folks can still remain within Tier 6.
 
I'm making an Aiwass CRT with the following changes so if anyone else has any rebuttals or suggestions, let me know.

Adding the controversial mind manipulation resistance for everyone with angelic mental structures, Aiwass included.

Flight through the manipulation of an [unknown] energy, identical to Accelerator's/Kazakiri's.
Kazakiri Hyouka.

For her, with those supernatural wings erupting from her back, this was actually her
first time in the air. At first she doubted her wings could even allow her to fly. However
it was not a problem now. She did not need to learn how to use her powers. It was as if
those wings of hers, emitting purple lightning, gained the power of levitation just by her
wishing it.
Click to expand...
With that mental change, he became a source that spewed forth a unique power into the
real world.

Accelerator put his hands on Last Order’s small shoulders, lightly pushed, and floated
up into the sky due to the recoil like an astronaut in zero gravity.

Last Order’s small hands stretched up into the sky toward Accelerator.

But she could not reach him.

Accelerator was already floating a few meters up.

Convinced that he had done the right thing, Accelerator flapped his white wings. His
one-hundred-meter wings used more than just the power of the wind. They also
converted some more unknown energy into lift. He emitted no force down at the earth,
but he still shot up like a bullet.

In an instant, Accelerator reached a point three thousand meters up and scattered the
thick clouds that were hanging in the sky.
Does anyone know why the metaphysical energy manipulation is listed in Accelerator's base key and not under his black wings?
I had initially thought that the metaphysical energy projection was referring to launching something unexplainable out in his black wings state, but apparently it's referring to something else that is incredibly obvious.


Type 9 Immortality for obvious reasons

Self-sustenance from traversing space

Adding Secret Chief to Aiwass' classification.

Sandbox
 
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I guess I'll also ask why Aiwass isn't High 1-C in their first key. Sure, their avatar/manifested-energy isn't High 1-C, but their true form is(for anyone looking to kill it).
 
Sup. Found two quote in a spacebattle thread for ToAru that makes Kanzaki (and other Saint-Tier folks) more unlikely to scale to Mjolnir's feat.

#1

It was moving in a giant circle that had a radius of twenty kilometers. Bluish-white sparks flew along seeming to trail it. Like that, the Throwing Hammer drew a clean circle. Its speed increased. It was not fixed in place. It rapidly moved up like the curve of a quadratic function. In just the ten seconds Kanzaki had been watching, the enemy's actual form had disappeared from view, leaving only the giant bluish-white glowing circle visible.

It was much too ominous a phenomenon to be referred to as an angel's halo.

From the flow of magic power, the circular symbol, and the Thor's hammer form the magician existed in, Kanzaki was able to guess what was coming next.

She unhesitatingly fled.

A bluish-white beam of light appeared coming from below and heading up as if to stab into the heavens. It shot straight through the center of that twenty-kilometer-radius circle.

Immediately afterwards, a third of Radiosonde Castle was utterly annihilated.

A third of Radiosonde Castle had been annihilated.

An avalanche of wreckage did not rain down on the Kanto region because the massive amount of energy had blown away the third of the fortress to the extent that not even dust remained. That spell was powerful enough to forcibly destroy the ozone layer and it was similar to a solenoid coil. The Throwing Hammer had continually revolved around that circular orbit while carrying a massive amount of electricity. That had given the electrified air in the center of the circular orbit a vertical vector.
Click to expand...

#2

Kanzaki breathed heavily right next to the edge of the destruction.

The edge glowed orange like the inside of a blast furnace. The stone walls and ceiling that had been creating an odd sense of intimidation were no longer there. Just a running long jump's distance away, there was nothing but open space.

She had used her supersonic speed to its limit without thinking of the consequences.

She had headed forward tearing through walls and pillars.

But she could not do it again.

She had no way to deal with it if the same thing happened again.

She had not been able to use her sword or wires in time for a few walls and had merely tackled her way through them at full speed. She had used a bare minimum of defensive spells, but her body was crying out in protest.

And most importantly, she would no longer have anywhere to run to after two more of the same attack.

Her situation was close to hopeless, but at the same time, a question grew in Kanzaki's mind.

(I thought he or his organization was trying to drop Radiosonde Castle on Academy City!? Why would he destroy it like that...!?)
Click to expand...

More or less, does this text make it seem that Kanzaki was scared by Mjolnir's attack of Mjolnir's attack that destroyed Radiosonde Castle? Making it 100% unviable for scaling for Saint-Tier folks since Kanzaki used everything she had to get away from it?

... On a side note, this spacebattle thread is pretty useful, ngl. Also, I am pretty sure it was created by Mr.OMG (considering the fact that the maker of this ToAru thread has the exact same username as Mr.OMG in this wiki).
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Sup. Found two quote in a spacebattle thread for ToAru that makes Kanzaki (and other Saint-Tier folks) more unlikely to scale to Mjolnir's feat.

#1



#2



More or less, does this text make it seem that Kanzaki was scared by Mjolnir's attack of Mjolnir's attack that destroyed Radiosonde Castle? Making it 100% unviable for scaling for Saint-Tier folks since Kanzaki used everything she had to get away from it?

... On a side note, this spacebattle thread is pretty useful, ngl. Also, I am pretty sure it was created by Mr.OMG (considering the fact that the maker of this ToAru thread has the exact same username as Mr.OMG in this wiki).
Click to expand...
He should join this thread honesty
 
They are probably already here - they commented here a few times if I recall, so they already get notifications and they have appeared in my CRTs once or twice, so I assume they are just content lurking and occasionally commenting about stuff.
 
Not really, tbh. At the very least, if we assume that Touma crossing 15 meters in 3 steps means it only took him a second to cross that distance, he only gets a speed of 15 m/s, which would be superhuman in this wiki and wouldn't go against Touma's earlier statement of him being scared of those thugs at the start of OT1 chasing him down with motorcycles since they would still be very much faster than him.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Not really, tbh. At the very least, if we assume that Touma crossing 15 meters in 3 steps means it only took him a second to cross that distance, he only gets a speed of 15 m/s, which would be superhuman in this wiki and wouldn't go against Touma's earlier statement of him being scared of those thugs at the start of OT1 chasing him down with motorcycles since they would still be very much faster than him.
Click to expand...
It atleast it upgrades movement speed (we need those for low tiers)
 
Who didn't lay a hand on him and were being led around by Touma to 'save' them from Mikoto's wrath - which was due to him ruining the plan she had made in the Railgun Manga, but that isn't too important.

Doggo said:
It atleast it upgrades movement speed (we need those for low tiers)
Click to expand...
Too vague to work, imo. Doesn't give a timeframe at all, and the anime probably wouldn't help in the slightest since anything more than 1 second would just lead to athletic human speeds, if it took two seconds, and just average human speeds (and below), if it is anything more than two seconds.
 
Although... Speaking of this topic, there is something in NT11 that could possibly help... Well, remember the scene in where a Queen Diver was chasing a younger Touma and Misaki down? It seems like they were able to 'run away from it' despite it having a stated speed of 200 kmph (55 m/s) [subsonic spped, fyi] while they were in a wide street - but we didn't even get any context before head, so we don't know how long Touma and Misaki had ran from the Queen Diver chasing them; or if Touma had just used his wit and knowledge to just get ahead of the Queen Diver regardless of its speed by using the most troublesome paths for it.
 
Honestly, any notable speed upgrades for the lower tiers (and honestly everybody else) is with Touma's fight with Othinus.

We all know about the MFTL+ arrows - and how Touma reacted to them, could move to evade them, and was only caught by one due to a literal surprise attack that he had no possible way to know or predict. In all honestly, this is more than enough to upgrade other people to MFTL+ in other verses.

There is also this moment.

“What happened!? You should not be able to keep up with me with your specs!!”

“No, I can’t. And these repeated battles haven’t increased my physical strength. Nor have I unlocked a hidden power in Imagine Breaker or anything like that. I’m still me. I haven’t become anything else.”

“Then…!!”

The twinkling of the stars in the sky was an ominous ill omen.

Each and every one of them transformed into a sharp spear of light and poured down like rain.

However…

“Then how can you survive!?”

“Have you forgotten, Othinus? Or was it such a lame metaphor that you ignored it? It’s fun to try all sorts of things against a normally unbeatable opponent to analyze their attack pattern. It may leave no data behind, but it feels like you’re accomplishing something!!”

“You can’t mean…”

“Even if I can’t level up like in an RPG and even if there’s no change to my physical strength or supernatural ability, I’ve been analyzing you all this time. While you killed me again and again, I gradually memorized your combat patterns!! I don’t even have to think about it anymore. I can move on instinct!! I had plenty of chances to do this. After all, you stuck with me until I stopped counting altogether!!”

This was similar to retro shooting games. The path to the next level was more dependent on the real-life player improving his skills than on the in-game ship’s parameters increasing.

On a difficulty setting that looked monstrous at first glance, it may seem impossible to beat. But after playing enough times, one began to notice specific traits to the movements and barrage of enemy bullets. After building up footholds bit by bit, the player could defeat the boss with almost automated movements and advance to the next stage.

“You mean you used all those deaths?”

“Unfortunately, I truly could not defeat you. I wasn’t holding back. I gave it everything I had and was still killed in the end. But I wasn’t being killed for no reason. I purposefully chose how I was killed to test out all sorts of things. In death, I learned. It may be different for pure gods, but this is how lowly human entertainment works.”

There may not have been meaning to it.

He may not have gained anything other than a sense of satisfaction.

But…

“I’m the kind of normal high school boy you can find anywhere. My right hand may contain a bit of a special power, but that isn’t enough to call me an expert. Even if I managed to evade a god’s attack here, I’m still me. If I fought a normal magician, I’d normally lose. My specs aren’t any higher than that.”

Even as Kamijou spoke, a whirl of explosions pursued him.

But the destruction could not catch up.

He would slip through even the slightest gap or he would betray Othinus’s expectations of where he would move next. In one way or another, he would just barely prevent his body from exploding.
Click to expand...

Yes, Touma has the excuse of experience and being a understander of Othinus - using a video game example here (for the lols), even if you know the exact pattern of a projectile in a danmaku game you can't do shit if it moves faster than you can react with a controller.

However, this is... a rather 'dangerous' line of thought. Even ignoring the unholy amount of people who would scale and scale above this, Touma getting a solid reaction time that is vastly superior to his movement speed will 100% kill his match potential, i.e, in the same vein that Jojo matches are (essentially) dead (for the most part) in this wiki due to their vastly superior reaction time and punch ghost so they won't be affected by speed equal,
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Honestly, any notable speed upgrades for the lower tiers (and honestly everybody else) is with Touma's fight with Othinus.

We all know about the MFTL+ arrows - and how Touma reacted to them, could move to evade them, and was only caught by one due to a literal surprise attack that he had no possible way to know or predict. In all honestly, this is more than enough to upgrade other people to MFTL+ in other verses.

There is also this moment.



Yes, Touma has the excuse of experience and being a understander of Othinus - using a video game example here (for the lols), even if you know the exact pattern of a projectile in a danmaku game you can't do shit if it moves faster than you can react with a controller.

However, this is... a rather 'dangerous' line of thought. Even ignoring the unholy amount of people who would scale and scale above this, Touma getting a solid reaction time that is vastly superior to his movement speed will 100% kill his match potential, i.e, in the same vein that Jojo matches are (essentially) dead (for the most part) in this wiki due to their vastly superior reaction time and punch ghost so they won't be affected by speed equal,
Click to expand...
Kamijou having mftl+ reactions on a normal basis sounds wrong, he clearly gets tagged and blized but much slower things. It could be argued he reacted to those arrows thx to being othinus understander (thus knowing her actions through precog).
 
Counterpoint, if you were surrounded by all sides by machine guns that you couldn't see and fired bullets that were millions if not billions of times faster than you, you couldn't perceive them much less dodge them even if you had precog - expect in this case, Touma did so despite the fact that precog can't make you faster than what you usually are.
 
FantaRin_The_First said:
Counterpoint, if you were surrounded by all sides by machine guns that you couldn't see and fired bullets that were millions if not billions of times faster than you, you couldn't perceive them much less dodge them even if you had precog - expect in this case, Touma did so despite the fact that precog can't make you faster than what you usually are.
Click to expand...
Then he should be "Peak human,MHS reactions likely MFTL"
 
Granted, Touma, when fighting Othinus, was seemingly stronger than normal.

Case-in-point.

It was that the human before her thought he stood above her.

“I will not return. I will not repeat. I will not be trapped by my hesitation. I will give up on everything and proceed forward. …Once I kill you this time, there is no next time, human. You cannot win. You have not won even once. The next attack will take your life!!”

Othinus did not even need to move from that spot.

She only had to lightly raise the lance.

An invisible explosion would immediately smash Kamijou Touma’s body to pieces.

She had made this same attack countless times before. She had done it so many times that she could not distinguish her memories of doing it in the past from her vision of it happening in the future. The result was already known. The ideal destruction in her mind was nothing more than following the past, so there was no chance of failure. The actual results from the thousands or tens of thousands of previous times ensured the current result.

Yet…

In the next instant, Kamijou accurately evaded the invisible explosion by leaping to the side.

​

Part 7

(Dh…!!)

The intense pain striking Kamijou Touma’s entire body caused him to grimace.

He had somehow escaped the lethal area, but the explosion still hit him in midair.

He struck the dirt ground after being thrown further than his expected landing point. His excess momentum sent him rolling even further.

Even so, he endured.
Click to expand...

Touma still got hit by Othinus' explosion, despite escaping the "lethal area", i.e, where the explosion spawned, which should've turned him into paste regardless of this fact, logically... but he lived.

I wonder... Wasn't there a quote that stated Imagine Breaker gets "stronger" the more "abnormal" things it encounters during NT22 or smth? Maybe it also applies to his physical stats... probs head canon, tho.

Doggo said:
Then he should be "Peak human,MHS reactions likely MFTL"
Click to expand...
That could work... Probs needs some work, tho.
 
XDragnoir said:
Wait, why is it named without an avatar?
Click to expand...
It’s not inaccurate. He's in a similar state as Coronzon w/o an avatar when residing in the current phase.
“Don’t make me laugh. You are no more than exposed energy without an avatar. That
much is clear from the fact that you borrowed his wife’s body when giving him the Book
of the Law. Just like me, you should only be able to wield your full power when you
possess an avatar. Right now, you are like a pile of organs. Did you think your silly
oversimplified duality would give you an advantage like that!?”
Click to expand...
FantaRin_The_First said:
I wonder... Wasn't there a quote that stated Imagine Breaker gets "stronger" the more "abnormal" things it encounters during NT22 or smth? Maybe it also applies to his physical stats... probs head canon, tho.
Click to expand...
This is what it comes from. Make of it what you will, but the quote is only referring to IB.
Angels and demons.

Those beings were so ridiculously beyond the normal that those words barely seemed to
hold any weight at all. However. The further she was removed from ordinary physical
risks such as metal pipes, knives, and guns, the more critical the damage Imagine Breaker
could do to Great Demon Coronzon.
Click to expand...

My own headcanon is that Touma's Will(according to Thelema) allows him to carry out his nonsense feats. At this point, it's like trying to quantify Hamazura's luck.
 
Thanks, Churrron!

... Ye, tbh, Touma has a notable amount of feats that are vastly above even the upgrades I gave to him. Case-in-point, Touma being able to knock out White-Winged Accelerator with a rock to his chest in their round 3. Sure, he had been holding back and wanted Touma to win (but he still had to do somewhat of a good fight in order to get AC to back off from him - and holding back could also mean him not just using the tactics he used in their round 2 to get around IB), but WW!Accelerator still has that 6-A feat of face-tanking an attack that would've destroyed Eurasia and had bypass his vector shield, so he did it by sheer durability alone, so IB might not even be able to help in negating it, but again, Touma was still able to knock him out - but there is some leeway here, so idk.

... Granted, Accelerator isn't free from this stuff either. cough getting hit by Gabs meteors (which should've killed him regardless of the fact that his ability was reducing the damage) cough cough getting hit directly by Kakine's dark matter (and having not a single mention of his ability reducing the damage) cough

Honestly, Hamazura is pretty normal in this regard (thanks to his luck, but that is another thing entirely)
 
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FantaRin_The_First said:
Granted, Touma, when fighting Othinus, was seemingly stronger than normal.

Case-in-point.



Touma still got hit by Othinus' explosion, despite escaping the "lethal area", i.e, where the explosion spawned, which should've turned him into paste regardless of this fact, logically... but he lived.

I wonder... Wasn't there a quote that stated Imagine Breaker gets "stronger" the more "abnormal" things it encounters during NT22 or smth? Maybe it also applies to his physical stats... probs head canon, tho.


That could work... Probs needs some work, tho.
Click to expand...
I think so myself. The idea is that the more supernatural the environment (mages create the world with every use of magic) the stronger Touma and IB become. This can be seen in the illustrations of NT4 and NT9.
 
MrOMG said:
I think so myself. The idea is that the more supernatural the environment (mages create the world with every use of magic) the stronger Touma and IB become. This can be seen in the illustrations of NT4 and NT9.
Click to expand...
Statistic amplification?
 
Doggo said:
Statistic amplification?
Click to expand...
This is the only thing that can explain his survivability in certain situations. For example when Aqua sent him flying a few hundred meters, or when Touma sent Carissa flying 2-3 kilometers, when he survived the explosion under his foot sent him flying 100+ meters, or when he survived being shot by one of Othinus' arrows using the whole universe as a crossbow
 
MrOMG said:
This is the only thing that can explain his survivability in certain situations. For example when Aqua sent him flying a few hundred meters, or when Touma sent Carissa flying 2-3 kilometers, when he survived the explosion under his foot sent him flying 100+ meters, or when he survived being shot by one of Othinus' arrows using the whole universe as a crossbow
Click to expand...
seems like something worth noting
 
MrOMG said:
This is the only thing that can explain his survivability in certain situations. For example when Aqua sent him flying a few hundred meters, or when Touma sent Carissa flying 2-3 kilometers, when he survived the explosion under his foot sent him flying 100+ meters, or when he survived being shot by one of Othinus' arrows using the whole universe as a crossbow
Click to expand...
... Huh? When did this happen?
 
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