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Accelerator

I'll start with Conceptual vectors.

He does have this but I am willing to negicate and say he can Manipulate Conceptual Energy instead. We should also add Metaphysical Energy Manipulation via Vector Manipulation as well. I think with this they may see it it as an NLF possibility because anything can probably be seen a metaphysical or conceptual vector but with this we are limiting it to metaphysical and conceptual energy that already exsists. Also it's a fact he can manipulate these types of energies so this shouldn't be debated.

Mind Hax Resistence

He has it and we have provided enough proof. We aren't saying he is immune to all mind-hax. On top of that he should have had some type of MInd-Hax resisfence on his profile regardless because there are certain mind-haxes that don't work, like Misaki's mental out. This is just adding more types of mind-hax that don't work. I think anything that needs transmission, if they try and use Accelerator's emotions etc.so he should get Empathy hax resistence and mind-Hax that the person using it needs a visual, like Qliphah's dress.

We can even put Resistence against certain mind-Hax. That way we aren't just saying he can resist all.

Reflection speed

Should be MFTL+. for reasons that have been stated on previous CRT's. I don't know why there is such a big deal over this though since most matches are speed equalized.

Striking Strength

Tbh I don't think it makes a massive difference either way if we go for 5-B striking strength or High 1-C. In fact I think it might be better to low ball here so we don't have unfair matches.

He should get the maximum lifting strength though thorugh Gravity Manip and BFR.
 
According to Lazy, this is why MFTL+ Reflection speed was rejected:

As for the MFTL+ claim, his reflection doesn't work that way, it treats each attack individually. Shooting 30 bullets at Accelerator is the same as shooting him with 1. What you are claiming would be like trying to calc his reflection speed by calcing how many photons hit his body.

Besides, the thing Accelerator did to deal with Kakine's DM was to consciously analyze the energies Kakine was using to attack him during their short fight to then update the parameters of his reflection. It wasn't an instant thing at all. Several seconds pass while the two fight after Kakine explains to Accelerator what he's doing to get pass his reflection, and the two then have a short conversation. Accelerator had all that time to analyze these energies, figure them out and update his reflection.

And even if all of the previous wasn't true, you're just apparently assuming the DM energies to be lightspeed for no reason whatsoever. You obviously completely misunderstood how Kakine's attacks on Accelerator worked, because he wasn't shooting 25000 types of energy at Accelerator, he was infusing things like his wings, the wind caused by those wings and the sunlight refracted by those wings with energy. The energy itself had no speed on its own, it was an add-on to his actual attacks that each moved at different speeds. His fastest attack was the sunlight refraction, which is just lightspeed. Not to mention the "25000" energies was just how many energies Kakine initially used to test Accelerator's reflection, he first had to filter which of those energies were considered harmful by the reflection and which weren't.

So Kakine's actual reflection-bypassing energies is an unknown number, but less than 25000, and none have a speed on their own, they're energies that he can infuse to things like his wings, wind or sunlight. This part alone debunks your entire claim.
 
And yeah, I think we should just limit it to Energy Manipulation and add a note/disclaimer saying it extends to "conceptual/metaphysical energies" too. Lazy agreed that energy manip would be acceptable.
 
>Can reflect light speed energy with the least bit of calc power in normal mode

>Him boosting that calc power means it's still SoL reflection speed

I give up with these guys, reflection speed shouldn't even be a factor for vs debates anyways since it's all equalized to begin with and speed has never once been a factor nor has it ever been stated to be. In fact, the way he states it goes against his point cuz this would mean he is calculating every single fraction of light that touches him in normal mode and reflecting that constantly, which is more impressive than the Kakine feat in of itself. It still has to calc a formula for whatever touches him, and that means he's doing that every single day that light hits him without showing any strain. Sure, it's his most simple, but it's still stated to take calc power.
 
I changed High 1-C striking/lifting strength to 5-B. I said it was scaling from AP, but likely far higher.

And reverted the MFTL+ to just 2x SoL. Anyone who moves that fast is a bad matchup anyways.
 
Exactly there is absolutely no proof that speed can bypass his reflection, nor has it ever been hinted that it could.

2x SOL is lowballing to the extreme and I don't like that. Also MFTL+ matches would more in incon than anything.
 
Accel should be able to move as fast as he wants as he's never once had a trouble with keeping up with people, let alone even Neph who he has blitzed, Coronzon, and Elizard. Vectors don't have a speed limit, the only limit is that his body matter can't convert itself to particles that can go that fast so he likely has a speed cap pre-speed of light. He's already demonstrated he can reconstruct matter with MeltDowner so I wouldn't be surprised if he could create SoL/FTL attacks with objects.

The accel low ball is truly real on this site.
 
Very real.

And yeah, he's shown be very fast. The only thing that stops him from going FTL is the fact he's human.

I said this before but what annoys me most is that only one side has to provide proof while the other doesn't. Imo I think it should work both ways. If neither has no proof than it should be debated for and against rather than just downright accepted that it would or wouldn't work.

I think that the main argument should always be whether or not Accelerator can understand the mechanics and laws behind something and everything else should come after because if the answer is no it doesn't matter the speed or anything, it's getting through no matter what. If it's a Yes then you can possibly have a conversation about speed or whatever.
 
Sadly I don't believe the people in charge of the ToAru section are aware of the circumstances revolving around a debate. When you disagree with something you're supposed to provide evidence against the opposition rather than just "He has never done it" because nothing gets done and you purposely roadblock the argument. It's a poor way to debate.
 
I am sorry, what is even being debated at this point? I thought there was a mere problem of justification to clear up any lingering confusions about Accelerator's statistics.
 
Certain To Aru experts have disagreed with these statistics, including one staff member. That's the issue. We've done the CRT's, but since they (Lazy mostly) abandoned us mid-way, we were forced to bring in other staff who were knowledgeable about this Verse to give their opinion. And they (Schnee One) gave us the okay to make edits. Only now has Lazy become aware of these changes and complained about it, even though he was the one who left in the first place, thus causing these chain of events. Smh...
 
The sad thing is, I think all of us are more than willing to debate and discuss it some more if need be. But at the end of the day, the minority shouldn't rule over the majority, espeically if they have given both evidence and better arguments to why these things should be added. But I'm more than willing to compromise on one or two things, some not so much.
 
"I am a demon, but not from the Qliphoth. I am the Great Demon that dwells in the Abyss of the Sephiroth. The Sephiroth's 10 Sephirah and 22 pathways are also a conversion table for producing the supernatural by connecting the great universe of the world with the small universe of the body. Do you feel it? An arm is formed from Chesed and Gevurah and its five fingers control the five elements. The middle finger controls fire and the red of blood, which symbolizes the activity of the heart. You made a mistake when you accepted the rebounding force to measure how much damage you had done, one who remains in the human realm."

Change it back to 1-C. Boy's, we got'em. Malox was right all along.
 
Their reasoning is that Accel hasn't proved he can amplify the rebound magnitude to 1-C. I can already foresee their response. I think they're just gonna reject it for being "not relevant"
 
>Receive energy

>Manipulate energy

It's that god damn simple. It's not that he can magnify it to that level, of course he likely can't, but if he's given it in response then, uh, yeah, he's gonna hit anyone with that tier of durabiltiy with that 1-C durability back easily. Do they even understand basic science? I'm a high school drop out and this stuff is simple.
 
I did leave in a "at least far higher" disclaimer at the end. And I said his Increased Strength can scale to the opponent's durability under his notable attack/techniques section. We can always just explain in the matchup threads. The profile gives us enough wiggle room to.
 
Accelerate420 said:
"I am a demon, but not from the Qliphoth. I am the Great Demon that dwells in the Abyss of the Sephiroth. The Sephiroth's 10 Sephirah and 22 pathways are also a conversion table for producing the supernatural by connecting the great universe of the world with the small universe of the body. Do you feel it? An arm is formed from Chesed and Gevurah and its five fingers control the five elements. The middle finger controls fire and the red of blood, which symbolizes the activity of the heart. You made a mistake when you accepted the rebounding force to measure how much damage you had done, one who remains in the human realm."
Change it back to 1-C. Boy's, we got'em. Malox was right all along.
Click to expand...
only rebound is not AP and will not work vs weaker opponent tho , it very similar to dura negation
 
So what exactly is the rebounding force argument here? Behind on the latest index stuff but it seems like you're saying his attacks can scale to his opponent/negate durability?
 
Yeah. It's stated in the novel that he has countrol over the reflection of rebounding forces (only upon physical contact though) and that, theoretically, this lets him rebound the others energy into themselves to break through their guard and hurt them due to abusing their own rebounding forces against him. In NT22 it's clearly stated that he accepted the rebounding force of his blow back into him rather than allowing it to reflect off him into Coronzon.

It doesn't mean he's gonna be punching out High 1-C people because hax-lords but it's just basically a form of durabiltiy negation that scales to who he is fighting. It boils down to basically:

Cause and effect, except accelerator reflects the effect back into them at 2x which surpasses their durability.
 
Who edited the Rensa page? I thought it was agreed that we shouldn't scale Rensa to Accelerator?

If anyone wants I can do a small CRT on that to get everyone's opinions only on this. I think this did come up in the long CRT I did and it might have gotten swept away in the mess and the heavy derailment.
 
Somebody should ask LazyHunter and DontTalkDT to comment here.
 
Scrlk666777 said:
Who edited the Rensa page? I thought it was agreed that we shouldn't scale Rensa to Accelerator?
If anyone wants I can do a small CRT on that to get everyone's opinions only on this. I think this did come up in the long CRT I did and it might have gotten swept away in the mess and the heavy derailment.
Click to expand...
I'm somewhat neutral to her being planet level, in reality it should be Varies, possibly up to planet level. Her Vector Control is not nearly as potent or perfect as Accel's but she copied his Personal Reality up to that point so I'm on the fence about it.
 
I would go for more '''unknown '''where Rensa is concerned. As you pointed out her vector control isn't as potent. In fact correct me if I'm wrong but didn't she just use reflection with Accelerator's powers? I'm not including the wings here just what she used with Accel's base powers.
 
Somewhat. She used basic formula's of redirection and vector change when she manipulate Kakine's Dark Matter but for the most part it was described that her style was suited only for attack mode rather than offensive and defensive like Accel is iirc.
 
Which is why I'm not sure she should scale to Accelerator, in fact I'm not sure she should really scale to the other level 5's.

It's a tough one though since she mainly faced off against Touma and Kakine. Rensa couldn't really do anything against Touma and lacked the calculation power and brains to really harm Touma unlike Accelerator but Kakine couldn't really harm Rensa due to Accelerator already adding Kakine's dark matter into his calculations so Rensa is able to reflect dark matter. I mean this was the main reason Kakine didn't attack in NT 6 because he knew that he couldn't defeat Accel with his powers on.
 
This isn't a CRT thread and most changes in the OP has already been run over in other CRT threads, which has mostly been agreed by with either Lazy or Don'ttalk.

I am tempted to do a small CRT on Rensa though. One to discuss whether or not she should really scale to Accel, I'm personally in two minds on the subject. But also after reading through Rensa's profile, I'm also questioning some of Rensa's abilties listed there as well, like her having Plasma storm and brain hacking amongst others on her profile.
 
Rensa should, theoretically, have the ability to do most of what Accel does minus advance vector changing and her powers iirc are limited to redirection gimmicks in a full offensive form. So while I'm not against planet level I'm also skeptical on it.
 
Accelerate420 said:
Rensa should, theoretically, have the ability to do most of what Accel does minus advance vector changing and her powers iirc are limited to redirection gimmicks in a full offensive form. So while I'm not against planet level I'm also skeptical on it.
Click to expand...
Yes, theoretically but Esper powers are also heavily based on calculations, Accelerator's abilties espeically.

I think it should be limited to what has been shown. I mean we can't theorize about Accelerator so why are we doing it for Rensa?

I mean has she shown to be able to create a plasma storm or brain hack a brain?

I know she can control the wind somewhat because she did produce Accelerator's tornado wings.
 
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