Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Churronzon]

If I'm not mistaken, each Golden Dawn member can kill Magic Gods with ingenuity and prep time, right? Or does the Golden Dawn need to be collectively in unison to do so? Sounds like the former to me, with the exception of Dion Fortune due to her magic not being suitable for it. A team profile should be made for them regardless.

“Magic Gods are those who pursued magic to the point of no longer being human. But
these Golden people have remained human while using spells that incorporate even the
power of Magic Gods. But it isn’t a case of one side walking all over the other. It’s a
complex mess of mutual deception and betrayal. You could say whoever lets their guard
down just a little will be consumed.”

“Well, normally thinking, a Magic God who has mastered magic would never be outdone
by the knowledge of a magician who is still working to master magic,” said Niang-Niang.
“But these Golden people aren’t exactly the average case. Do you mind if I use a poker
analogy? A 2 might be the weakest card, but if you gather all four of them, you have a four-
of-a-kind. It’s the group effect. It’s synergy. Of course, it’s still like threading a needle, but
if used correctly, it could probably bring them pretty close to being the strongest out there.
It’s not just the kings and aces that determine who wins and who loses.”

“Even Aleister figured out for himself how to eliminate Magic Gods Zombie and High
Priest. If these people want to claim they’re the original Golden magicians like him, they’ll
have to show us something that makes even us panic.”

[...]

It could have been Israel Regardie or Netta Fornario. If these Magic Gods had run into
any of the other Golden magicians, no one could have predicted the result. But Dion
Fortune would be forced to fight with probability instead of with ingenuity or a fistfight.
Once that game of Russian roulette began, it would become an extremely boring fight to
the death in which she was guaranteed to blow her brains out in the first round.

[...]

“Now, the Golden cabal used Kabbalah as a foundation, added in Egyptian Mythology,
Greek Mythology, tarot, Enoch, and plenty of other things, extracted the common symbols
of god and light, and put it all together into a system of spells that approaches the essence
of it all. And within that, Nephthys is the Imperator, one of the three positions in the 0=0
ceremony. ...Now, surely you aren’t naïve enough to think you could use that box of yours
against a legit Egyptian deity like me. This is beyond what luck can do for you, unless you
set things up to the extent Aleister Crowley did when he brought out that being he calls
Aiwass and claimed to have complete the Last Judgment in 1904.”

[...]

“Oh, what a gentleman. But I don’t think it’s too late to get some more information out of
her as a reward for taking her in. ...Really, she’s probably the only Golden magician who
would back down so easily. Especially in their current state where they would probably
calmly challenge a god even after having half their body blown away.”

[...]

“Heh. Compared to Westcott and Mathers, she’s a complete newbie to the Golden cabal.
So don’t worry! Losing a mere Fighter A isn’t going to affect the cabal much!!”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 21 Chapter 2 Part 6

Idk if there's any quotes I'm missing.

 

[GunTish]

Sounds like the former to me

Niang-Niang's poker analogy makes it sound more like the latter tho.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Looks like latter, like how they basically say she had no chance against a MG in a game of probability. Very cool

And that aleister seem to be a unique case. Since even for golden cabal it seems she saying it would be incredibly rare. I'm guessing this is talking a magic god with zombie spell? Since this novel looks to start referencing that as a point of strength rather than full power

 

[Churronzon]

Looks like latter, like how they basically say she had no chance against a MG in a game of probability. Very cool

That's referring to Dion's magic being literally luck based, not referring to MGs probability manipulation. Dion pretty much has Pandora's Box as anything could pop out.

“Translate, simplify, and create anew!!”

The truth was, Dion Fortune did not know what kind of magic would come out. She
claimed to use up old and inefficient traditions to rebuild them as a smarter new spell,
but the grimoires she compiled were beyond what the Golden’s defenses could handle and
some magicians in the cabal speculated their teachings moved beyond what the original
ones had covered. So the magical phenomena that Fortune introduced to the battlefield
would bring great chaos to enemy and ally alike.

Only one thing was known for sure: Dion Fortune had consistently found victory using
this method.

Since not even Fortune could predict what her magic would do, it had a way of ruining
any calculations and plans made in advance. It was much like triggering a volcanic
eruption or sudden downpour while two armies were staring each other down. No matter
what kind of plans a novice like Crowley built up in that building, they would all be torn
down by something shockingly unexpected.

Ultra-hot flames burst from within the black box. Her short red hair and decorative veil
were tossed about. And like a booster, the explosion transformed into thrust and forcibly
altered the dress girl’s falling trajectory. She gave a hop, floated for a moment, and then
descended safely to the ground along an unstable trajectory.
She had not planned this at all. Any plans would have been meaningless.

It all came down to her luck of the draw.

That was Dion Fortune’s greatest weapon. That was why she created the invisible monster
of unpredictability and used it to help her fight. It was just as unfair as someone winning
through pure dumb luck against a supercomputer AI taught to play mahjong through
repetitive learning that included the traits of individual players. It was such nonsense that
not even Arthur Edward Waite’s cards could fully predict what would happen.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 21 Chapter 1 Part 6

The other Golden Dawn members would not need to rely on probability/luck.

And that aleister seem to be a unique case.

Aleister is being used as the standard, not the outlier.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Well yeah, luck is a form of probability. Didn't mean MG probability manip specifically, but just in general how using her method really wouldn't work.

And yeah aleister probably a standard, just a very high one fr

 

[Doggo]

How high into 1-C are the god tiers?

 

[XDragnoir]

How high into 1-C are the god tiers?

True MGs are infinitely above baseline, Aiwass/Secret Chiefs' and Coronzon's true forms scale above them but we don't know much about them yet.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Which stuff made Coronzon scale above them again? I remember aiwass but not her. Wasn't she also like an angel, but classified as a demon because of her purpose plus kicked outta heaven? Other than that don't remember. Like preventing others from reaching higher in sephirot tree

 

[XDragnoir]

Which stuff made Coronzon scale above them again? I remember aiwass but not her. Wasn't she also like an angel, but classified as a demon because of her purpose plus kicked outta heaven?

No, she is a demon that resides in the Sephirot, i don't remember anything about Coronzon being formerly an angel.

Other than that don't remember. Like preventing others from reaching higher in sephirot tree

Yeah, if her authority allowed her to stop even the MGs i think that would mean she is above them (tho we obviously have no idea how that would correlate to her AP and is mostly about hax).

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Ohh okay, cause I basically got it frombthis. But it also kind of seems like she should be known as an angel, but due to her viewpoint and practices she's known as a demon? Like she rules over sephiroth, and is hidden by the holy tree rather than Qliphoth which is evil. It made me wonder, with how they hint at this.

Also in the first scan I sent, is that why she's considered above magic gods? Because the interaction was interesting to me, Niang seemed to understand who she was too and just seemed eager to fight her. If Coronzon really did see the point of a magic god as a half way point though literally...then she can also go throughout the entire tree. Which could probably mean a lot? I wish they went more into it. Though I can't tell with how they interacted how to 100% take it. That and aiwass and coronzon seemed kinda relative, where her being stronger at that time was an issue of the forms they were in so

 

[XDragnoir]

Ohh okay, cause I basically got it frombthis. But it also kind of seems like she should be known as an angel, but due to her viewpoint and practices she's known as a demon? Like she rules over sephiroth, and is hidden by the holy tree rather than Qliphoth which is evil. It made me wonder, with how they hint at this.

This is actually interesting, I'd explain this as the first quote being about how her position in the Sephirot technically gives her the status of an angel without actually being one in nature.

I wish they went more into it. Though I can't tell with how they interacted how to 100% take it.

Honestly, what you said here sums up things very well, the most likely outcome is Coronzon being stronger than them yes, but as we were talking about before we don't have a full understanding of the Cosmology, so that's mainly why Coronzon's true form isn't in her profile, we don't understand it completely.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Simon has no resistance against soul manip

He will once CRT happens

 

[Aseka]

Anyone have feats that Accel can resist extreme temperature?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I don't think that there is any such resistance feats... in the conventional sense. Accelerator's Vector Control protects him from such things in the first place due to how it works - so any "resist" feats would just be attributed to his power passively protecting him than anything else.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, there is no heat value that could get through his shield, but an actual scene in series would be at the end of OT14 or the statements about surviving nukes.

 

[Aseka]

I've been said something about this, but I want to ask again something regarding Phase.

Should someone get Conceptual Manipulation through Phase Manipulation? Because Phase is a fundamental aspect in cosmology, and even some naration mention it as a concept.

 

[XDragnoir]

Should someone get Conceptual Manipulation through Phase Manipulation? Because Phase is a fundamental aspect in cosmology, and even some naration mention it as a concept.

No, that's not how concept hax works.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Huh. Just checked the ToAru reddit and apparently Mugino - and Item pre-Fre/nda - is getting a spin-off.

 

[XDragnoir]

Huh. Just checked the ToAru reddit and apparently Mugino - and Item pre-Fre/nda - is getting a spin-off.

Yeah, sadly not a manga tho.

Debating wise i hope it gives Mugino something new, plot wise i hope Takitsubo gets the spotlight alongside Mugino, for real tho of the 4 members i like 3 (i don't like Frenda at all) so ITEM is actually the best Dark Side team to get a spin off IMO, even in GROUP i only like 2 of the 4.

 

[Churronzon]

What?! It a LN series? How long is that going to be?
That's great! I hope I get to see Mugino go on a killing rampage again :< )

---

That's basically also how Curtana harming Aiwass reconciles. Curtana simply has a hax Aiwass doesn't resist.

That's not the major part that needed reconciling. An explanation for a portion of an archangel's power perforating into a realm outside the reach of MGs is what's needed. I got an answer that makes things consistent though.

Also, couldn't we use that logic for World Rejecter's tiering? MGs just don't resist BFR.

 

[Churronzon]

I made a matchup thread based on this.

Lemme know if it needs some changes

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's not the major part that needed reconciling. An explanation for a portion of an archangel's power perforating into a realm outside the reach of MGs is what's needed. I got an answer that makes things consistent though.

I mean, again, it's hax. The power of the thing that does it has no real relevance. For all intents and purposes, there could be a Level 4 Esper with that same ability, since it's just not an issue of power.

Also, couldn't we use that logic for World Rejecter's tiering? MGs just don't resist BFR.

Sure, although WR also destroyed the entire phase Nepthys wanted to use to overwrite the world. So it's Tier 1 hax, which is worth nothing.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Also pretty sure it's said a magic god or true angel is needed to stop it, I honestly don't think it could take them down. Or did it harm them at some point that I don't remember?

Kinda funny tho these characters spend most of their time nerfed. They're too strong otherwise

 

[Churronzon]

Doesn't the mental structure of angels provide a resistance to mind manipulation according to Anna and is the reason why she has general purpose resistance?

Just as she aimed the remote and pressed the button with her thumb, Anna Sprengel’s
head shook unnaturally, like it had been hit by an invisible bat from the side.

But...

“That will not work on me.”

“Eep!?”

(She recovered!? No, it didn’t take!!)

This was worse than with the #1 and #2 who she could control but she still had to keep
her guard up around.

She had not expected her power to simply not work on someone. And not because they
had forcibly deflected it with a solid defense like Misaka Mikoto did.

“You were mistaken to assume the supernatural ability to control people would allow you
to comprehend my mental structure and take control. If you hope to grasp the mind of
Anna Sprengel, you should have first trained yourself to the point that you can at least
take control of an entire angel.”

Mental Out did not work.

Shokuhou’s power was strong, but it did not work at all against cats or dogs.

• Souyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 02 Chapter 2 Part 3

If so, it would apply to all angels(obviously) and I wager it'd apply to Accelerator's angelic mind in his winged state.

 

[XDragnoir]

Doesn't the mental structure of angels provide a resistance to mind manipulation according to Anna and is the reason why she has general purpose resistance?

• Souyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 02 Chapter 2 Part 3

If so, it would apply to all angels(obviously) and I wager it'd apply to Accelerator's angelic mind in his winged state.

Not really, first because Misaki's power is brain manipulation rather than direct mind hax, second that because of this (and the comparison with cats/dogs) Anna just really needs a physiology that different from that of a human.

 

[Churronzon]

Not really, first because Misaki's power is brain manipulation rather than direct mind hax, second that because of this (and the comparison with cats/dogs) Anna just really needs a physiology that different from that of a human.

First off, you're aware Anna has resistance to general purpose mind manip based off resisting Misaki, right?

Anna is also stating that even if Misaki didn't have the restriction of only working on humans, she would need to be able to control at least an angel.

 

[Churronzon]

Essentially I'm saying either neither Anna nor the angels have resistance or they both do.

 

[XDragnoir]

First off, you're aware Anna has resistance to general purpose mind manip based off resisting Misaki, right?

What? I am saying that's exactly not the case, her brain is, like cats and dogs, just not the type Misaki can control

Anna is also stating that even if Misaki didn't have the restriction of only working on humans, she would need to be able to control at least an angel.

Where did she state that?

Essentially I'm saying either neither Anna nor the angels have resistance or they both do.

So far neither do, this small interaction with Mental Out doesn't help them.

 

[Churronzon]

What? I am saying that's exactly not the case, her brain is, like cats and dogs, just not the type Misaki can control

Well, then you're going to have to make a CRT about it because it's already on Anna's profile(although I would disagree with you).
It's also on this page.

Where did she state that?

The part I underlined is stating that Misaki would need to grasp the mental structure of angels to have a chance of controlling Anna.

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, then you're going to have to make a CRT about it because it's already on Anna's profile(although I would disagree with you).
It's also on this page.

Ew, it should at least explain that it's not resistance to esoteric mind hax, only to biological mind hax.

The part I underlined is stating that Misaki would need to grasp the mental structure of angels to have a chance of controlling Anna.

I mean, sure, but she is literally talking about the mental structure so it explicitly has nothing to do with resistance, they just work in a way Misaki doesn't understand.

 

[Churronzon]

Wahhoooo, more Toaru profile inconsistencies.

Now let's move on to the next thing and never fix any of them.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Gah, that is just a stab in the chest for me. lol.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I really need to get off my bum and start working on profile revisions but december break is just making me too lazy, lol.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Oh ye. IB is 11-D Power Null (due to affecting magic god shiz), so... does that mean IB can bypass resistance towards power-null if it is power null resistance that is below 11-D?

 

[Doggo]

Oh ye. IB is 11-D Power Null (due to affecting magic god shiz), so... does that mean IB can bypass resistance towards power-null if it is power null resistance that is below 11-D?

Yeah, I think that's how it works.

 

[XDragnoir]

Oh ye. IB is 11-D Power Null (due to affecting magic god shiz), so... does that mean IB can bypass resistance towards power-null if it is power null resistance that is below 11-D?

Yes

 

[XDragnoir]

Also pretty sure it's said a magic god or true angel is needed to stop it, I honestly don't think it could take them down.

That was stated half way through OT18:

“That sword is like a conductor’s baton that controls the massive spell put together geographically by the 4 cultures that make up the United Kingdom. The knights could use all their strength to protect the United Kingdom while Carissa single-handedly uses Curtana to demolish Europe. …That method could actually end up working. After all, it is possible that human magic would not be able to harm her if she fully released Curtana Original’s power.”
If that happened, it would be almost impossible for anyone to rival Carissa unless a true angel or possibly a Magic God stepped forward.
___

But strangely enough this "fully releasing CO's power" here seems to be implying some sort of angelic transformation as we all know just wielding Curtana doesn't make anyone this strong... this could have something to do with the Ultimate Strike KL was talking about, but i think Kamachi simply forgot this point and we will never actually see it, meh.

 

[Doggo]

That was stated half way through OT18:

“That sword is like a conductor’s baton that controls the massive spell put together geographically by the 4 cultures that make up the United Kingdom. The knights could use all their strength to protect the United Kingdom while Carissa single-handedly uses Curtana to demolish Europe. …That method could actually end up working. After all, it is possible that human magic would not be able to harm her if she fully released Curtana Original’s power.”
If that happened, it would be almost impossible for anyone to rival Carissa unless a true angel or possibly a Magic God stepped forward.
___

But strangely enough this "fully releasing CO's power" here seems to be implying some sort of angelic transformation as we all know just wielding Curtana doesn't make anyone this strong... this could have something to do with the Ultimate Strike KL was talking about, but i think Kamachi simply forgot this point and we will never actually see it, meh.

god dammit Kamacji not again

 

[Churronzon]

I wasn't even aware of that quote.

I really doubt he forgot since he brought up killing Aiwass all the way at the end of New Testament, for no reason.

Still waiting on vampires though.

 

[XDragnoir]

I wasn't even aware of that quote.

I really doubt he forgot since he brought up killing Aiwass all the way at the end of New Testament, for no reason.

Killing Aiwass had to do with the Dimensional Spell, the quote above implies something different from that.

Still waiting on vampires though.

Same here, Alice could even be used to explain their existence if Kamachi chooses to bring them to the current plot.