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definitely agree able
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To be canon or not to be that is the question.A Dragon ball Super revision
- Thread starter Killerdrone123
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For certain scenes I'd just say it's there obviously going to use anime scenes because they aren't going to show manga panels (Example I'm referring to is the Vegeta flashback to his fight with Goku), I wouldn't call that supporting evidence. However, things like Gregory existing are valid points given he doesn't show up at all in the manga as far as I know.
Overall, I think it's pretty clear Super makes references to Kai/Anime as it has scenes and characters that/who don't exist which is a sign that they are canon to each. I guess you could try to and argue that that's all these are are just reference to go "hey remember this" without the care of canon as they probably assume most watching follow the anime but that just my head canon as I lack evidence for that. And I think that making reference to an event people know is one thing but adding things into existence that only are shown in a different media is another especially when it's done multiple times.
For now, I'll agree. Changes this would entail can be discussed after if this gets accepted. I'd like to see some counterpoints first before anything else because it would be a waste start potential changes they another revision to revert it spawns immediately. I myself don't focus on Dragon Ball much anymore so I have no counter-arguments to the OP other than what I mentioned above but that doesn't change my view as a whole since my thoughts are kinda head canon on the writers intention. Regardless, I am in agreement with the change but I'd like to see potential valid arguments from those who have them.
Overall, I think it's pretty clear Super makes references to Kai/Anime as it has scenes and characters that/who don't exist which is a sign that they are canon to each. I guess you could try to and argue that that's all these are are just reference to go "hey remember this" without the care of canon as they probably assume most watching follow the anime but that just my head canon as I lack evidence for that. And I think that making reference to an event people know is one thing but adding things into existence that only are shown in a different media is another especially when it's done multiple times.
For now, I'll agree. Changes this would entail can be discussed after if this gets accepted. I'd like to see some counterpoints first before anything else because it would be a waste start potential changes they another revision to revert it spawns immediately. I myself don't focus on Dragon Ball much anymore so I have no counter-arguments to the OP other than what I mentioned above but that doesn't change my view as a whole since my thoughts are kinda head canon on the writers intention. Regardless, I am in agreement with the change but I'd like to see potential valid arguments from those who have them.
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I personally still disagree and it's a topic been brought up numerous times; while it's been written more elaborately combined with also being more organized than previous attempts, I still have quite a bit of contentions. But most of these are mainly neutral stuff; not to mention, there are still plenty of things the DBS Anime contradicts Kai's continuity just as hard as it contradicts the Toei Anime. Prime example being Bardock's backstory being completely rewritten by the DBS Broly movie.
But going to have to wait for a day I am off work before elaborating my contentions.
But going to have to wait for a day I am off work before elaborating my contentions.
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Can you please provide scans for these when able, I'm not familiar with DB enough to know these hard contradictions?
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So why is it used in DBGT? By this logic not even Toei should be used for GT.
Killerdrone123
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The thing about bardock is that the movie retconned both manga and anime since we can see bardock in his og armor when frieza gets a flashback of him
Not to mention even toriyama considered the bardock special canon to manga and he says that he has given space to it
So yes broly just retconned both manga and anime
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Strym, I don't know if that’s a valid comparison. Toei-Z is Non-Canon material that can do whatever it wants. Kai is (by the logic of this thread) a show bound by the overall narrative intent of its writer and is forced to fall in line within known canon facts.
So where Toei can introduce galaxy obliterating feats or universal feats and its consequences are self contained to its own continuity, Kai doing so directly impacts future events, where we know the intent to be universal was Battle of Gods. Realistically, I’d just have the Kai 2-C feat be an outlier due to the wider narrative context created by Battle of Gods being introduced.
So where Toei can introduce galaxy obliterating feats or universal feats and its consequences are self contained to its own continuity, Kai doing so directly impacts future events, where we know the intent to be universal was Battle of Gods. Realistically, I’d just have the Kai 2-C feat be an outlier due to the wider narrative context created by Battle of Gods being introduced.
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Vietthai96
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Bardock's backstory was rewritten by Toriyama himself, DB Minus manga, Broly Movie's Bardock backstory section was adapted from DB Minus and we all know that Akira Toriyama is heavily involved in Broly movie
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The Bardock special was an event that happened in the anime and manga. The guidebook and Toriyama’s statement + the original manga show this.
So this applied to the manga too. So this argument doesn’t work considering the movie was originally for both. HOWEVER, DB Minus + Broly did retcon it, but that applies to the manga and anime.
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WOW, WHAT AMAZING LOGIC! Why not just interpreting the BoG as Goku being so strong that he can barely contain his Universal level of power lmfao.
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Crazy how there’s a lot of proof for Kai being canon, but one of the argument against is not being comfortable about scaling. (Even when this is a canonicity thread)
Also stop discussing scaling in a canonicity thread.
For some reason even Whis had a star.
Also stop discussing scaling in a canonicity thread.
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When it comes to the Kai 2-C feat, the only characters who should scale to it in Z are Buuhan and Vegito unless you want to bring up the Kid Buu statements in which case Buutenks/Buuhan is also stated to be stronger.
When it comes to DBS, Goku and Beerus showing off Universal levels of power shouldn't mean the Kai feat is an Outlier since Goku himself states that the power boost he recieved from SSG is greater than that of the Potara which would in turn put him above Buuhan.
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Not in anime, I am afraid.
Killerdrone123
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Can we talk about scaling later this thread main focus is considering canonicity
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You have to remember that Super Buu remembers being Kid Buu and yet considers these Absorption powerups as a Boost instead of Downgrade.Not in anime, I am afraid.
Eden_Warlock99
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He wasn't exactly conscious or what he'd consider himself as Kid Buu, so I don't think that really works.
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I think that's the Chozenshuu that was released as an updated Daizenshuu before DBS but right after BoG and RoF, so that would make sense.
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Each incarnation of Buu considers themselves to be there own beings while still possessing the previous ones memories. Buutenks still remembered Goku from his time as Fat Buu despite the fact he's an fundamentally different being. It's a similar premise here.He wasn't exactly conscious or what he'd consider himself as Kid Buu, so I don't think that really works.
Vietthai96
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Seriously, we can handle scaling after this, because if this do not get accepted, then scaling discussion is irrelevant, save it for the future
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He wasn't exactly conscious or what he'd consider himself as Kid Buu, so I don't think that really works.
Can we all please stop derailing the thread
The OP has outlined a specific intention for the goal of thread as of now and nth has even been accepted yet and y’all are talking and deliberating about what comes after when square one has not even been decided yet.
The OP has asked time and time again that we focus on the specific topic that the thread is trying to address. Please stop deviating from the main point as it only takes up more time and energy and ultimately does nothing for the thread.
Anything scaling related can be addressed after the thread is completed or/and in a different thread. Please once again stop derailing and address the main point of the thread
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Dude you have no idea how much we would gotta overhaul the profiles (ie, renaming them, merging some of them, splitting them etc) might as well split the verse page into two (manga and anime)
Also what should be canon to the DBS Anime/Kai? The OGDB Manga or the OGDB anime?
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There is a lot of evidence, I agree
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The Chozenshuu part is relevant to the thread, because it was establishing that Z Bardock's appearance in Kai does not stand against it, since Bardock was considered Canon by Toriyama. Establishing that another canon character--Whis--Has the star due to time of release and not because the guide is inaccurate is thread-relevant. That said, I understand that a lot of derailing is happening. I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't, because...I wasn't.
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Kai doing so doesn't impact anything. Characters being 2-C before the battle of gods arc is not contradicting to anything. The whole point of battle of gods was to show how goku has literally transcended into a new realm of power, him and beerus. It's not about just performing universal feats. Not to mention this logic crumbles when you see how much EFFORT buuhan had to put into it, he was literally screaming his lungs out in a fit of rage and nearly destroyed the universe because of it. Vegito actually had to tryhard just to stop him. Whereas goku nearly did it in a couple punches alone, not even at full power. It suddenly becoming an outlier just because you don't like it is incredibly dishonest. When it's toei, its acceptable, but it becomes canon and now its a problem? Lol.
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Whhhhat? You realize Goku in the Anime had to learn how to fight with Universal strength right? Because he couldn't control it? Goku having universal power already makes this entire moment make absolutely no sense.
Yes...and this realm of power was signified by said UNIVERSAL FEATS.
No...because by the logic of Kai and Toei, Goku got considerably stronger. Goku went from beneath Buuhan and Vegito, to as strong (if not stronger than Kid Buu) who was "the most powerful Buu" in the Anime (stated a whole bunch of times.) In comparison to the Manga, in which Goku was still weaker than Buuhan.
Didn't Goku literally do a Ki Dragon Power up and dig into the higher reserves of his power to perform the feat? He definitely wasn't going all out, and it was casually happening off his blows, but he wasn't straight up not trying. Further, Toei's Dragon Ball Continuity and Canon are totally different. There's over half a dozen extra arcs of scaling to consider (Dead Zone, Cooler's Revenge, Fusion Reborn, Father of Goku, History of Trunks, Garlic Jr's Return, Otherworld Tournament, etc.) added on to the pre-existing material, additional lore to canon moments limited that continuity (Goku's meeting of Mutaito, Gohan's training in the wilds, expansion of the Afterlife and Dabura in the Buu Saga, the Saiyans exploits against the Tuffles in the Saiyan and Frieza Sagas, etc.), on top of it's own unique sequel series (GT). It's very disingenious to act like they're remotely the same as Canon when on a foundational level they're NOT.
It's also not even about preference or "liking it." I like the idea of an immeasurable speed Goku from Goku V Hit, but it by definition is an outlier. In that same vein, I like the idea that we further study the anime and dig deeper into it's lore to find stuff to discuss, but this feat is by definition is an outlier due to Battle of Gods existing and establishing that arc as the "crowning moment" the universe comes under threat from Goku's power.
In my opinion, the only way this makes sense is if we say that Kid Buu being in the "strongest" in Kai is incorrect for that arc (Which would actually make sense because it was intended to be manga accurate anyway). Then you have the manga's scale of power and Universal is limited to Vegito and Buuhan (trying their hardest.) Then Goku gets SSG and gets that level of strength for his punches when he's putting moderate effort. Bing bang boom, it's all consistent.
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I'll address the "Characters being 2-C before the battle of gods arc is not contradicting to anything" argument in a different thread that focuses on scaling since this one is just for canonicity.
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So are you still neutral? Because ddms arguments have been addressed in terms of pure canonicity.
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Because Tilted replied to me and then I was compulsed to respond which inadvertently caused derail. Egg on my face.
Anyway, I don't see any issues with Kai being canon myself.
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It can just be talked about in another thread, its all good. Just waiting for more staff or for damages thoughts.
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Yes, scaling will be dealt in another thread, however do you agree with the canonicity aspect?
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DDM mentioned there are more things that contradict the canoncity, so I'll see what evidence / scans they have to bring up.
DivineAura44
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We haven't forgotten about the thread, just waiting on DDM. No need to bump this my guy.
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I'd do it again
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there is none. DDM's only point was bunk because that Bardock situation was a retcon across the entire franchise, not just the anime.
so please, we'd appreciate if you could give a definitive evaluation of your own
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How are we going to reconcile the Hell that appears in Z and in Super since the whole Otherworld stuff still happened there or do we just ignore it? This is assuming Kai being Canon does get accepted of course.
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