Tiny little gripe I have with the Mario franchise

[AquaWaifu]

I feel like the mario characters get a nice little advantage in stats and stuff due to having something pretty much no other franchise (to my knowledge) has, loose/no canon, which basically makes outliers almost nonexistant outside Mario defeating Dreamy Bowser iirc. Luckily outside of that one instance there arent too many uber ridiculous stufff.


Maybe Im just bothered by them having such a widly varying tier in stats high 4-C to 4-A, I just want it locked in place! waah.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The varying tier doesn't have anything to do with this anymore.

It's just that the 4-A feat is less likely to be legit than the High 4-C one, but we still put it on.

 

[AquaWaifu]

hmm fair enough.

 

[Ryukama]

One thing I'm uncertain about is if we can scale all characters who are empowered by a Power Star as Tier 4. I am starting to wonder why are we treating using being "empowered by a star" as equating to "drawing in/absorbing the entirety of all its energy and automatically scaling to all the feats that it's ever done".

It's starting to exaggerate all these minibosses to stats vastly beyond what they have ever truly shown or stated. And I mean quite obviously certain people like Bowser can draw way more energy from the stars than Bowser Jr's machines, or a fodder wiggler. As Azzy has even now said in regards to Sonic revisions, "Using part of something's power doesn't make you equal on all levels."

If these other worthless minions were truly capable of using their new found power to take over/destroy the world, don't you think they would've done so?

I guess I'm fine with whatever Dino and most staff decide upon, but it's just an uncertainty I have.

 

[AquaWaifu]

My problem is Mario beats Bowser with no stars and Bowser and Mario are considered roughly equal, and then Bowser...has the power of a grand star and is....just as aeasily beatable despite it should be giving him a MASSIVE power up and this also justifies Mario's stats cause he beats powered up Bowser?

 

[Ryukama]

Mario actually was empowered by Power Stars when he defeats Bowser in 64. The reason his base is Tier 4 is because he can beat some nameless fodder Wiggler that grew big cause of a Power Star. Again, I have doubts we can actually in good conciousness say that worm has absorbed the entirety of all the Power Star's energy and can be said to scale to every feat the Power Stars have done, despite never being stated or shown anywhere remotely close to such levels.

Mario empowered by the stars can still be Tier 4, I'm not sure having that wiggler, base Mario or everyone who scales to base Mario ever be Tier 4.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Didn't that Wiggler actually do a 4-A feat?

 

[Ryukama]

Not that I can recall at all. The Wiggler mentioned that realms that the Power Stars created contain stars/constellations which is where I believe 4-A came from. However if the Wiggler did do a 4-A feat, then I completely take back what I said.

 

[Dust_Collector]

The Wiggler in SM64 didn't do a 4-A feat.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

iirc no, the Wiggler didnt do a 4-A feat

Edit: Ninjaed

 

[AquaWaifu]

iirc no, the Wiggler didnt do a 4-A feat
Edit: Ninjaed

Uhhh Wiggler GREW big...clearly 4-A.

 

[Js250476]

Iirc Wiggler just commented that he saw stars or something in one of the paintings he never did anything like that in the game at all

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Digimon and SMT have nameless fodder that are well into tier 2. This is nothing but argument from incredulity.

 

[Ryukama]

Except that they presumably have actual feats, statements or powerscaling that puts them well into Tier 2.

As for this nameless fodder Wiggler, he has absolutely nothing remotely suggesting him having power anywhere close to realm of Tier 4, besides the assumption that just because he grew bigger and stronger with the star that he absorbed all of its power, which doesn't necessarily have to be the case.

 

[Js250476]

See the difference being Digimon and SMT have actually done shit to justify there stats this fodder Wigger doesn't

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

You guys are completely misinterpreting the feats and the ratings all together.

1. Wiggler is only a mere example, not the primary one. I advise you to revise the thread I made on the Power Star. I stated the tier came from the enemies (specifially the bosses) that were empowered by the Power Stars in the games mentioned, starting from the SM64, which had such feat. This included King Bob-omb, a constantly recurring foe in the franchise who clearly isn't a fodder considering he fought Mario, Luigi, and the former's paper counterpart in Paper Jam at once. For those of you mistakening referring Wiggler as a fodder, this is only limited to the standard enemies, not bosses. The Wiggler bosses are clearly more formidable than a random one you can find in World 5-4 of NSMBWii or whatever. A great example of this are RPGs, particularly the Mario and Luigi games. Those Wigglers are clearly aren't fodder or potrayed to be such in the story or gameplay as they even become resilient to the damage inflicted upon them when they are enraged. Keep in mind even Bowser fought one.

2. Power Stars are not Chaos Emeralds. We only know what their uses are and they have not been established to work discriminately on the type of user.

3. Power Stars are simply one reasons for the 4-A, specifically Mario's. Not the only reason. The tier is supported by his confrontation with Antasma as he is even able to hurt and tank his attacks even when he's empowered by Dreamy Luigi. Although this wasn't labelled in his page, he also fought King Boo a few times, who was also capable of creating a realm with such a size.

 

[Ryukama]

1. Does King Bomb-omb or any other example of yours have any feats or statements that are at all Tier 4 besides the fact that they simply got stronger from a star? Bowser actually did stuff with the Power Stars, like create his own worlds as stated by Toad. People like that I'm fine with having Tier 4 via being empowered by the Power Stars, not anyone ever who has come to contact with a Power Star that does nothing but get a little stronger and have a meaningless filler fight with Mario.

2. Regardless of the Power Stars or Chaos Emeralds functioning differently, the point is still "I got stronger from an energy source" doesn't mean "I absorbed the entirety of this energy source and automatically scale to every single feat it has ever done despite myself having absolutely zero feats or statements anywhere remotely within the same realm of power in the slightest at all".

3. If Mario was amped by Dreamy Luigi those feats don't scale to his regular stats or others that scale to base Mario. However if he has other 4-A feats fine, but I still stand by my opinion that the Wiggler Mario fought in 64 is not at all Tier 4.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

1 & 2: These issues seems more geared to the user than the actual artifact because we have the feats (Being able to create worlds large enough to contain a star or mutiple of them, turning into a black hole calculated around such, and Lumas being able to turn into them as well as stars, comets, and galaxies as well) and the statements (Rosalina, Toad, and the official guides). That rule only applies to items with a widely varying statistics of feats, specific conditions in drawing it's power, and users because this isn't some random featless artifact we never seen in the series before with nothing but implications of it's powers and a villian who never used it or simply held it without being empowered by it like Cackletta and the Beanbean Star or Wingo. If the simple fact that not every user created the star or a realm containing is the reason of disbelief without any hint that indication that the power varies without user, then it's nothing but a mere subjective guess and you might as well do the same for every other weapon and user who only scaled based on the power shown of by other uses of it. And considering the minimal level of power shown by it is Star level, it makes the concern needless.

3. I said Mario is still capable of withstanding hits and damaging Antasma with the latter being powered-up by Dreamy Luigi, not the former. If that's what you believe, fine, but in the end of the day, like you said, it's only your opinion. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Ryukama]

1-2. The Power Stars are solidly Tier 4 and have many feats and statements to back it up. I've never denied that. However we can't assume anyone ever who comes to contact with a Power Star becomes Tier 4 with absolutely no evidence as a result.

Yes, the fact that someone has never performed a Tier 4 feat, has never been stated capable of a Star level feat or legitamately scales to anything Tier 4 leads to my disbelief that it is Tier 4. That's like, how we rate people. You don't give people tiers based upon what they have never been suggested to have it.

This is how we rate all characters in these situations, as I've also confirmed with Ant and Azzy. If someone doesn't have any feats or statements suggesting they absorbed the entirety of an energy source or used it then we don't assume as such. Show a statement that suggests the Wiggler absorbed the entirety of the Power Star's energy, or anything suggesting it has Tier 4 power, then it can be rated as such.

3. That's a bit odd that Mario is stronger than a villian amped by an already amped Luigi, yet unamped Luigi is also as strong as Mario. But sure. That, the King Boo thing and Yoshi's feat are sufficient for Mario's rating for me. I have absolutely no problem with his current tier on the page.

And the fact that someone who's never shown Tier 4 feats, never stated able to do Tier 4 feats and never powerscales to anything Tier 4 being Tier 4 is just an opinion as well.

Also unrelated but I posted a message on your wall.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

1 & 2. Except the said character being powered up by an artifact with consistent feats confirmed to empower beings and noted how odd it made him into the point where it made him being uncontrollable rage due to being unable to withstand said power and fighting a character who is on par with his companion who also performed such a feat in his infant days isn't opinional at all. If anything, simply saying he isn't due to belief of being a fodder (Despite being a consistent boss who even fought Bowser) is nothing but an opinion.

3. I never said he was stronger or claimed such. Just capable of damaging and tanking him even when Antasma was boosted by Dreamy Luigi after snatching him. He wouldn't need to team up with Dreamy Luigi in the first place if that were the case.

 

[Ryukama]

1-2. I know he was powered up by the artifact, however nothing suggests he's absorbed the entirety of the artifact's power, which is where the disbelief comes from.

3. Ah alright. I understand now.

You can close the thread if you want. Seems concluded/not going anywhere and I'm not going to mind that much if a single justification for a tier I still agree with isn't to my liking.

Anyways do you care to discuss other things on your wall?

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Oh....right. Sorry.

 

[Ryukama]

Nah no problem. Sorry if I'm being a bother lol

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

No worries.