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Tiering System Revisions - Part 4 (Staff Only)
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
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The point is that the structure of Marvel has traditionally been completely incoherent depending on the writer, and DeMatteis consistently tries to impose his own religious standards on anything that he writes, despite that is usually severely contradicts other writers.
As such, I do not think that we should use an offhanded comment about "transcending reality and dream" as a foundation for the scaling of the entire verse, filled with tens of thousands of stories that completely ignore and do not use it as a foundation. We need a more official basis.
In comparison, Grant Morrison's DC Comics cosmology is actually officially endorsed by the editorial department and repeatedly referenced in other stories.
As such, I do not think that we should use an offhanded comment about "transcending reality and dream" as a foundation for the scaling of the entire verse, filled with tens of thousands of stories that completely ignore and do not use it as a foundation. We need a more official basis.
In comparison, Grant Morrison's DC Comics cosmology is actually officially endorsed by the editorial department and repeatedly referenced in other stories.
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@Malomtek
They don't, and they don't necessarily have to, but if a verse attempts to use these concepts and ends up getting them incorrectly, then we shouldn't try and scale one to the other, it's really that simple.
I do believe connecting together multiple pieces of evidence to get a coherent picture of a Cosmology is a reasonable thing to do, but not when you attempt to connect disparate statements regarding the structure of the Multiverse to a mention of cardinals that visibly isn't referring to the same thing as (most of) the others, even if the subject matter is the same, in order to handwave the fact authors don't actually know the math; All I am seeing is you trying to disregard what the actual material states in favour of your own interpretation, not to mention that the conclusion you drew from all of those scans (that Alephs in Marvel are the same as / greater than real Alephs) is, no offense, borderline a non-sequitur and I honestly don't see how you actually got to it in the first place.
They don't, and they don't necessarily have to, but if a verse attempts to use these concepts and ends up getting them incorrectly, then we shouldn't try and scale one to the other, it's really that simple.
I do believe connecting together multiple pieces of evidence to get a coherent picture of a Cosmology is a reasonable thing to do, but not when you attempt to connect disparate statements regarding the structure of the Multiverse to a mention of cardinals that visibly isn't referring to the same thing as (most of) the others, even if the subject matter is the same, in order to handwave the fact authors don't actually know the math; All I am seeing is you trying to disregard what the actual material states in favour of your own interpretation, not to mention that the conclusion you drew from all of those scans (that Alephs in Marvel are the same as / greater than real Alephs) is, no offense, borderline a non-sequitur and I honestly don't see how you actually got to it in the first place.
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Well, I suppose that you can respond then. I just don't care much for your hostile tone or the bickering unproductive derailment in what is supposed to be a staff only thread, unless the regular members have something genuinely important to say.
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You can discuss things on message walls you know, if you feel the need to respond to posts
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No, High 1-As and 0s can have their own meta-hierarchies beyond Outerversal ones, though to achieve the latter you'd have to be ultra careful and specific.
If there is a system of stages of stories, the lowest density story has an outerversal hierarchy of characters, then the creatures transcend that story hiearchy and evolve to a higher story level. but the higher density story has its own hierarchy, so are the creatures in the higher story is 1-A or High 1-A?.
If there is a system of stages of stories, the lowest density story has an outerversal hierarchy of characters, then the creatures transcend that story hiearchy and evolve to a higher story level. but the higher density story has its own hierarchy, so are the creatures in the higher story is 1-A or High 1-A?.
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- #251
Daimaou's Hierarchy is already heavily in contention as of now, so I am not even going to comment on that.
Anyways, so, is there anything of note left to talk about?
Anyways, so, is there anything of note left to talk about?
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As far as I see...
- Hyperverse and Outerverse are either going to be adjusted heavily or incorporated into the upcoming explanation page for the Tiering System.
- Dimensional Tiering is getting the axe and being replaced.
- Lifting Strength, Striking Strength and Speed are having their upper levels slightly tweaked for the purposes of the new system.
- Range will maybe get revised a bit to fit with our new standards on dimensions.
- Multiverse is certainly going to be edited to remove the mentions of String Theory crap from it.
- Higher-Dimensional Manipulation should probably either be heavily revised or deleted, since directly manipulating spatial/temporal dimensions falls more under Space-Time Manipulation than anything, and controlling higher-dimensional objects isn't anything impressive without context.
- Higher-Dimensional Existence is being heavily revised.
- Beyond-Dimensional Existence should either be deleted altogether or incorporated as a type on a page for "Metaphysical Existence" which I commented about earlier.
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I want to ask something, is seeing other outerversal character as fiction is regarded as 1 level of transcendence or infinite level of transcendence? I mean isnt that not impressive at all? we see 2D Dimension as fiction, Outerversal Hierarchies should be higher than that.
If it just 1 level of transcendence Akuto Will be just 1-A or 1-A+ since he not transcends the stories but just reach top of it, and TLOI Will be just High 1-A since she transcends the stories.
If it just 1 level of transcendence Akuto Will be just 1-A or 1-A+ since he not transcends the stories but just reach top of it, and TLOI Will be just High 1-A since she transcends the stories.
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@Ultima
Okay. Thank you for the summary.
It seems like there will be quite a lot of work with updating all of the profiles that link to some of the pages that you listed. Perhaps we can use redirects from Higher-Dimensional Manipulation and Beyond-Dimensional Existence?
Do we need to modify the Omniverse page as well?
Okay. Thank you for the summary.
It seems like there will be quite a lot of work with updating all of the profiles that link to some of the pages that you listed. Perhaps we can use redirects from Higher-Dimensional Manipulation and Beyond-Dimensional Existence?
Do we need to modify the Omniverse page as well?
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@GLHF22
He is at the top of the spectrum of eug, still has the world of Tloi and the anti-universe above.
He is at the top of the spectrum of eug, still has the world of Tloi and the anti-universe above.
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Can we please stop with daimou discussions here? It details to the stuff that we're trying to settle.
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The empty universe is only a story in that spectrum. It is called the density of the stories.
The characters will pass the hierarchy in that story and evolve into a residents of the higher density story.
Akuto's personal story is a story with a very high density in this spectrum.
Any story in this spectrum has its own reality-fiction hierarchy.
A story with a higher density looks at a story with a lower density is just fiction.
The characters will pass the hierarchy in that story and evolve into a residents of the higher density story.
Akuto's personal story is a story with a very high density in this spectrum.
Any story in this spectrum has its own reality-fiction hierarchy.
A story with a higher density looks at a story with a lower density is just fiction.
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That's why i asked Ultima about that.
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If we remove those pages (which is honestly the best course of action to me), then I believe it wouldn't really hurt to use a bot to remove links to them from the appropriate profiles, at least in the case of characters with Beyond-Dimensional Existence, since they have a category of their own and are easier to track, though I can understand if you are warry of using one.Antvasima said:
I'd do an overhaul of it, yes, though for reasons more related to the quality of the page itself than the Tiering System revisions.
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Things are moving along. People repeatedly asking "are we there yet?" only slows down progress.
Those sorts of posts are only necessary when the thread's fallen dead, not when a rewrite of multiple pages is already underway.
Those sorts of posts are only necessary when the thread's fallen dead, not when a rewrite of multiple pages is already underway.
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@Ant
I forgot to tell you this, but, I am fairly sure that 1-A matches ought to be unbanned now, since the ranking itself is becoming more solid and measurable with the new measuring stick introduced to it, so I don't really see any reason to have them discouraged now. Though, that would really only apply to Low 1-A and 1-A; High 1-A and 0 are still getting banned from matches, but everything else is fair game.
I forgot to tell you this, but, I am fairly sure that 1-A matches ought to be unbanned now, since the ranking itself is becoming more solid and measurable with the new measuring stick introduced to it, so I don't really see any reason to have them discouraged now. Though, that would really only apply to Low 1-A and 1-A; High 1-A and 0 are still getting banned from matches, but everything else is fair game.
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I don't think 1-A matches are banned, just prohibited from being added. Just a slight correction tho, I don't have problems with the policy changing
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Not really, the only difficulty in these kinds of matches is the fact that next to no two 1-A characters are in the exact same scale of power, aside from Baseline 1-As, but even then, we could as well ban 1-B and 1-C matches using this reasoning.
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You have a point regarding the 1-B and 1-C matches. I am mainly concerned about that what you first mentioned would make almost every match a stomp, and that most of our members wouldn't be well informed enough to make proper evaluations about it.
ÆONS
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I share the same sentiment. Most 1-A matches as of now are getting crowded by people who have no idea how to adequately scale such characters besides the levels of transcendence, abilities or even feats that they have in order to make an accurate conclusion. Even with Ultima's new form of calculations that does make it possible to do so, I don't expect many people to be able to understand the mathematics well enough to come to an accurate conclusion on the matter.Antvasima said:
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So will this ever be concluded?
What's left to do here?
What's left to do here?
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I think that we seem to be mostly done here. All that is left is for Ultima to get the time to start revising our system, and to start discussions for how the affected characters should be revised.
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Can we please make that discussion NOT staff only because this is basically a normal CRT and non staff can voice their views in those?
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Sooo can there now be verses with a full high 1-A cast?
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