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Tiering System Revisions - Part 4 (Staff Only)

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It wasn't really a secretive discussion kept behind the curtains. It was just suggested there and some people pingponged ideas about what it should be.

Marvel getting cardinals wrong wasn't only in the issues with Kubik and Cosmos, as there was also stuff similar to it in the Doctor Strange comics people often quote while saying it encompasses Cantor's stuff or whatever, and even if you want to handwave that away with them interpreting it differently, there is still the fact that the authors didn't really know what they were talking about and thus made Infinities way smaller than they should normally be. So, yeah.

Discworld's Alephs are vague in the sense that, again, as far as I see there is no evidence behind the notion that they scale to anything in the physical setting of the verse. The whole thing behind Science of Discworld is that some Mages accidentally created a pocket universe which happens to be an exact replica of our own and started studying the stuff that the people in the Earth discovered / invented over the years. I am fine with being corrected by someone more knowledgeable on it than myself, though.

TOAA being a collective Author Avatar is nowhere near enough evidence for them being Tier 0; At most I can see one getting a "possibly High 1-A" highball on the profile if they stretch it long enough.
 
I'd argue that it isn't that the infinities are necessarily smaller, but that the relationship between ordinals (the ordering of numbers) and cardinals are a bit different in Marvel, which is why "twice as infinite" is a cogent statement there.

I see it as pretty much the same as when there are massive gaps between High 3-A or Low 2-C characters, despite either character *technically* having infinite power.
 
Sure, they may be different, but the way which they are described still makes Alephs in Marvel encompass nowhere near the same amount of things which they do in actual Set Theory, and thus we can't scale one to the other anyways

At most I can see Marvel's infinities being equivalent to some countable ordinal like epsilon-naught, which is basically irrelevant for jumping tiers here, so that's about it. From what I gather out of these scans, Marvel's Multiverse is at most Low 1-A due to the implications that there are Infinite Universes which have dimensions corresponding to any given real number, and even then, that may be stretching things a bit.
 
Malomtek said:
I'd argue that it isn't that the infinities are necessarily smaller, but that the relationship between ordinals (the ordering of numbers) and cardinals are a bit different in Marvel, which is why "twice as infinite" is a cogent statement there.
I see it as pretty much the same as when there are massive gaps between High 3-A or Low 2-C characters, despite either character *technically* having infinite power.
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bcuz ordinals and cardinals are different concept from each other. if we use alephs and stuff "twice as infinite" isnt that big of a deal when scaling 1-A characters. but seeing how TOAA is described i agree with ultima possibly high 1-A being the highball but imo TOAA is 1-A
 
And I think that The One Above All, at least his in his "true state" as basically a collective author avatar, should still be tier 0.

Read the Reality - Fiction Interaction page. We don't treat pages in this way.
 
physics doesnt reach the high numbers like math such as aleph 2 and so forth as physics thus far hasnt found even the universe being infinite today. going to that statement "physics of infinities" is literally vague and needs to be expanded on that.
 
Honestly, TOAA should just straight up be 1-A. There's not a whole lot that can make him a solid High 1-A besides his transcendence over everything else, in which even that conclusion stands on rather shaky ground since a lot of those people are pretty much Low 1-A. Maybe it can be arguable that he is "At least 1-A" due to him transcending the House of Ideas, which is apparently a 1-A realm, but considering how weirdly described Marvel's mathematics is and how they compare to theh actual ones, that sort of tiering is a little sketchy.
 
Of course Marvel describes alephs wrong. I mean, it's not like it's a theory and there's no specific way to intpret it. However, Ichiban and the others describe it right.
 
The real cal howard said:
Of course Marvel describes alephs wrong. I mean, it's not like it's a theory and there's no specific way to intpret it. However, Ichiban and the others describe it right.
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If they describe it wrong, it doesn't automatically scale to the mathematical concept. We tier based on how they described it, not the mathematical concept itself.

Ichiban and others don't describe alephs, but they describe other things, and we tier those.
 
Even if there was, which I doubt, it doesn't negate the other point I made about us deciding that some VN/LN does this to a T, probably not even describing cardinals but because were biased towards that kind of stuff it passes the test, but Marvel fails at it.
 
It is not bias, it is just that Marvel describes the concepts which we use for the System in an objectively wrong manner. I don't really care whether you are upset about us having bias towards eastern media or whatever you are saying, it is what it is, and randomly ranting about it contributes to nothing for this discussion, no offense of course.
 
They don't describe cardinals. They have outerversal power systems that are demonstrably transcended, beyond any extension of that system, by another being. And it doesn't seem like Marvel has something like that.
 
@Agnaa. Yeah, so what makes them High 1-A instead of Low 1-A is what I'm asking.

None taken @Ultima, but it's not gonna shut me up. We both know I've been here long enough to resonantly say I'm not pulling things out of my butt.
 
@Cal Because the stuff at the bottom of their hierarchy is already 1-A, and they have characters that transcend that hierarchy completely.
 
No you're misunderstanding. What makes their hierarchy start at a higher point. What trigger words to they use to assume their multiverse before the transcendence scaling chain is above Low 1-A.
 
@Cal

And again: I do not particularly give a shit, and am fairly sure that this is not the right place to randomly throw around mini-rants about it, especially since western verses are going to occupy the higher tiers as well.
 
I'll drop it because I'm 90% sure my posts will be deleted come morning, but at least talk to me on Discord about it.
 
Just want to point out that the notion that Marvel transfinite numbers are smaller than real alephs isn't borne out by how the cosmology is actually portrayed.

There exist realms that the regular Marvel universe is just fiction to, as shown in Gwenpool's series.

"Worlds within worlds", per What If #1.

The many-layered universe sca from classic Beyonder's arc.

On Eternity and The One Above All's pages, one could find these scans

By themselves, they don't mean too much. However, when combined with all the information above, and the rest of the Doctor Strange cosmology scans, a pretty coherent picture is painted of the structure of the Marvel multiverse.

The Marvel multiverse is (at minimum) an infinite hierarchy of space-time levels, where each level of space and time is as dream (or something equivalent in insignificance) to the reality of a higher level. In fact, after a certain point, the higher level of reality will no longer even share a "commonality of concepts" with the lower levels of reality, and will be completely beyond the natural laws and concepts of the lower levels, whether they be analogous to "science" or "magic". This means that, after some point, a given cosmic entity in the Marvel multiverse will be beyond scientific (rational) or even mystical (irrational) definition.

So the difference between Marvel transfinite numbers isn't any lower than the difference between regular aleph numbers. In fact, they are arguably much greater.
 
that doesnt really show infinite hierarchy as you just proved a fictional transcdence which in itself is just 1-A even if u see 1-A structure or a character as fiction. the scan u just posted doesnt inherenrtly prove high 1-A or 1-A+ for the marvel verse
 
Just a note that the extremely obscure Kubik and Kosmos story has been even more ignored and contradicted than the one in Doctor Strange.

A single Cosmic Cube can now imprison an entire Celestial host, and 5 of them were enough to overpower universal Eternity.
 
Also, I am not going to delete your posts Cal. I deleted my own derailment because it distracted from the main issues we talk about here.
 
Anyway, the DeMatteis Defenders story had Dormammu beat up Multi-Eternity and still be damaged by the Hulk, so it had severe inconsistencies, and DeMatteis himself tends to throw in hyperbolic metaphysical terms in almost any stories he is involved with, regardless if it fits with the rest of the setting.

I am also not sure whether or not we can scale from statements by the original Beyonder, given that he was retconned.

The Amadeus Cho/Incredible Hercules scan is probably valid though.
 
@Malomtek

Nothing of what you've posted actually means anything in relation to the scans regarding cardinals, and from what I've seen all of that is just trying to glue together multiple disparate statements.

In fact, most of the scans you posted are either vague or just talking about different universes, as opposed to higher levels of existence which each represent an Aleph or whatever you are implying here, such as the scan where the Beyonder realizes that existence is actually a Multiverse, as opposed to a singular reality. In fact the very scans where Doctor Strange explains Cantor's discoveries have him referring to multiple Universes which are at this number as well, so there's that.

That is quite a bold claim to make here, especially considering how monstrous the difference between each cardinal number is, and as far as I've seen nothing actually supports it besides some conjecture used to explain away Marvel using this stuff incorrectly, unless I missed something here.

@JackJoyce

No idea; Haven't seen Udl's descriptions of how high the WoD people are at 1-A. That'd need to be its own thread full of scans, I believe.
 
JackJoyce said:
A bit off topic but what tier would be WOD characters? According to Udl's descriptions The One Giver can be easily pushed to Tier 0. And the ELOHIM to 1-A+
Click to expand...
We discuss the rating for the new system are while ago with Uldmaster on discord, we agree the highest rating for the character would be just Tier 1-A from justifications and scans.
 
Matthew is correct.

@Emperor

Well, it is hard for us to properly define anything higher with conventional language.
 
We discuss the rating for the new system are while ago with Uldmaster on discord, we agree the highest rating for the character would be just Tier 1-A from justifications and scans.

He didn't know the new system at the time. When I told him of it he said it would be higher than 1-A. I agree.
 
Antvasima said:
Matthew is correct.

@Emperor

Well, it is hard for us to properly define anything higher with conventional language.
Click to expand...
Well I don't mind using finite to infinite levels as 1-A. What I do mind is people say if you're beyond 1-A you transcend all outerversal hierarchies because beyond that can still be classified as a hierarchy.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
So is the new tiering system treating an infinite hierarchy as the limit for any hierarchy?
Click to expand...
No, High 1-As and 0s can have their own meta-hierarchies beyond Outerversal ones, though to achieve the latter you'd have to be ultra careful and specific.
 
Inaccessible
This, pretty much. You could also compare 1-A+ and High 1-A to how High 1-B and 1-A themselves interact, although that comparision is a bit misleading, and the difference between former two is far larger in scale.
 
@Ultima

I highly doubt that any of the other verses we have as 1-A here speak specifically about cardinal numbers. As for "trying to glue together disparate statements", such a charge is ludicrous on the fact that we are talking about cosmology, and the bigger picture must be considered here, not just one or two lines.

I don't see what's "vague" about any of the scans, except for the Beyonder one, which can easily be explained by the universe/multiverse having multiple layers of existence within it.

@Ant

I don't particularly care about which quirk of someone's writing style got into any given book, just about whatever they wrote that got in, because they're still the writer.

Arbitrarily discounting information about a verse's cosmology found in a comic run just because it comes from so-and-so writer is incredibly irrational. The power-scaling between characters is irrelevant to the structure of the cosmos.

Matthew Schroeder said:
I just wanna say that from what I talked with Última, there's actually MORE western verses with High 1-A or 0 stuff than Easter . So no, we are not biased.
Click to expand...
What are those verses?
 
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