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The Elder Scrolls Revisions

Ultima_Reality

Ultima_Reality

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VS Battles
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Heya.

Basically, after thinking about this subject for a little while and chatting with Matthew over it, I want to address a few issues with the ratings present in our current The Elder Scrolls profiles, namely on the higher tier pages, pertaining to the Greater Gods and Spirits of the setting, which have admiteddly been bothering me for a little while but never gathered enough of my concern to deserve a thread, until now, of course, and given the revisions I proposed for the Tiering System, this couldn't be better timing.

Anyways, without further addo:

The High 1-B / 1-A Ratings
As of now, the Greater Et'Ada such as Aka, Lorkha and Trinimac are rated at High 1-B for being capable of freely shaping and manipulating the Aurbis, the Universe in which the Elder Scrolls series takes place in, which is itself a structure comprised of multiple higher spaces representing higher infinities, one of which is Oblivion, a dark void that, as stated in here, is comprised of infinite dimensions, which are most certainly referring to spatial ones, and not the Planes of Oblivion, as the latter are referred to as "Islands" in the text, while the former are alluded to as something which are a part of the plane itself, rather than being contained within it.

Even with my revisions to Dimensional Tiering being applied, this one is most certainly still fine, as Oblivion is infinite, and dwarfs the entirety of the Multiverse of Mundus in scope, so the infinite spatial dimensions possessed by it are certainly valid to use for tiering.

There is also The Truth in Sequence, or more specifically its seventh volume, which states that there are infinite angles and directions of time, with the linear motion which mortals partake in being simply one of them. It also goes further into descriptions of further motions which represent greater and more primal levels of existence, with the last one being a motion which dissolves an individual's Name into nothingness, and detaches them from duality and multiplicity as a whole.

So, yeah, High 1-B is really fine and dandy, as far as I am concerned. However, the issue here is how high into the tier the profiles currently rate the characters at, to quote them:

The Aurbis is an infinite construct which manifests all possibility as the Grey Maybe between the White IS of Anu and the Black IS-NOT of Padomay, containing infinite layers, with the Infinite-Dimensional Void of Oblivion which dwarfs the Multiverse of Mundus being encompassed by the larger Infinity of Aetherius, as well as endless unstructured realms beyond which form a single "Wheel" existing in parallel with other structures of similar nature and size, which are themselves part of a greater Wheel existing as the lowest level of a "Telescope stretching all the way back to the Eye of the Anui-El, with Padomaics innumerable among its infinite walls"

Basically, we currently say the Aurbis is comprised of the following:

  • Mundus, Oblivion and Aetherius, as well as an infinite number of higher realms which exist beyond
  • Multiple Wheels existing in parallel, forming a single wheel which is the lowest step of an infinite "Telescope" of other Wheels
...However, this interpretation of the construction of the Aurbis causes quite a few contradictions wth what we already know of the lore, namely, the fact it is pretty consistently stated to be only comprised of the three main realms: Mundus, Oblivion and Aetherius, by much of the reliable sources we have on the series, such as Vivec:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_20


Vivec looked at his first wheeling students and observed:

'Alike the egg-layered universe is this morbid possession of three-distant coverage, soul-wrecked and alive, like my name is alive. In this cloister you have discovered one walking path, hilled like a sword but more coarsened. So edged it is that it has to be whispered to keep the tongue from bleeding, where its signs evacuate their former meanings, like empires that tarry too long.
~ 36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 20​
Here, Vivec explicitly states that the Aurbis is a Universe layered akin to an egg, and compares it to a "three-distant coverage". In this context, Mundus is the Yolk, Oblivion the White, and Aetherius the shell.

There is also the Lovetter from the Fifth Era, written by Jubal-lun-Sul, which recounts the formation of the current Aurbis in "chronological" order, taking the 35th Sermon of Vivec as a basis. Here, Jubal also fairly explicitly states that the first part of the Aurbis to solidify through the creation of time was Aetherius:


The C0DA broke when Twice Vehk appeared again from Aether, but they captured enough of Him to render the words stable again. In this passage, He describes the goal of the Lunar God, who some of you still ascribe the name "Lorkhan". When stabilized, the words become proof:

All creation is subgradient. First was Void, which became split by AE. Anu and Padomay came next and with their first brush came the Aurbis.

Void to Aurbis: naught to pattern.

The marriages of the Aether describe the birth of all magic. Like a pregnant [untranslatable], the Aurbis exploded with its surplus. Will formed and, with it, the Potential to Action. This is the advent of the first Digitals: mantellian, mnemolia, the aetherial realm of the etada. The Head of this order is Magnus, but he is not its Ward, for even he was subcreated by the birth of Akatosh.

Aurbis to Aetherius: possibility to maintenance by time.
~ Loveletter from the Fifth Era, the True Purpose of Tamriel​
So yeah, the Aurbis is pretty consistently stated by some of the most reliable sources on cosmological subjects to be comprised mainly of the three realms we know of.

However, there are also a handful of statements regarding the Aurbis indeed extending past Aetherius:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Lilatha


Could I meet him?
"Someday, perhaps. The Psijic Order's isle of Artaeum is no longer here. It may return in time, but for now you'd probably have an easier time reaching Aetherius or realms beyond.
The order values solitude, much like Sotha Sil."
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/eso-alinor-and-ayarene

"The Aetherius is simply the first layer. I have seen outside the Aetherius."
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Baladas_Demnevanni_(person)

"It was unfashionable among the Dwemer to view their spirits as synthetic constructs three, four, or forty creational gradients below the divine. During the Dawn Era they researched the death of the Earth Bones, what we call now the laws of nature, dissecting the process of the sacred willing itself into the profane. I believe their mechanists and tonal architects discovered systematic regression techniques to perform the reverse -- that is, to create the sacred from the deaths of the profane.
Logically reconciling these two notions is actually fairly straightforward. It is already well established that before Aka and Lorkhan created the concepts of Time and Space, the Aurbis was utter chaos, and the Et'Ada too infinite and ineffable to erupt into being or gain any sentience on their own:

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/monomyth-altmeri-heart-world

At first the Aurbis was turbulent and confusing, as Anuiel's ruminations went on without design. Aspects of the Aurbis then asked for a schedule to follow or procedures whereby they might enjoy themselves a little longer outside of perfect knowledge. So that he might know himself this way, too, Anu created Auriel, the soul of his soul. Auriel bled through the Aurbis as a new force, called time. With time, various aspects of the Aurbis began to understand their natures and limitations. They took names, like Magnus or Mara or Xen. One of these, Lorkhan, was more of a limit than a nature, so he could never last long anywhere.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/ages-ma

The Cosmos formed from the Aurbis [chaos, or totality] by Anu and Padomay. Akatosh (Auriel) formed and Time began. The Gods (et'Ada) formed. Lorkhan convinced -- or tricked -- the Gods into creating the mortal plane, Nirn. The mortal plane was at this point highly magical and dangerous. As the Gods walked, the physical make-up of the mortal plane and even the timeless continuity of existence itself became unstable.
By attempting to tie up this two notions, we can conclude that, while part of the complete chaos that was the Aurbis was given a semblance of form and stability by the creation of Time and Space by Aka and Lorkhan, resulting in the formation of Aetherius, there still remained several realms which continued to partake in the timeless, spaceless chaos of the Pre-Dawn Era. Interpreting it like this, you can visualize Aetherius as the border of the Aurbis which separates its more "solid" aspect from the chaos that involves it.

There are a few texts which support this idea, such as this account of the Monomyth, which states that aside from Mundus, Oblivion and Aetherius, the Aurbis also contains other, less structured realms apart from them:

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/monomyth-myth-aurbis


Mythic Aurbis exists, and has existed from time without measure, as a fanciful Unnatural Realm.

'Aurbis' is used to connote the imperceptible Penumbra, the Gray Center between the IS/IS NOT of Anu and Padomay. It contains the multitude realms of Aetherius and Oblivion, as well as other, less structured forms.
As well as this text from Murkmire, which tells the tale of an explorer who travels to Black Marsh and has a vision of the Universe, and actually visualizes a multitude of Towers and Wheels (both of which being metaphors used to convey the structure of the Aurbis), constantly colliding and breaking against each other in a constant state of destruction and chaos. While this is admiteddly in-universe fiction, it reflects Argonian Mythology and Religion to a T, and makes mentions of multiple already established elements of the cosmology:


He was falling, then flying. The world rushed up to meet him, all fire and glory and madness. He felt a current on wings he did not remember having and he soared. He flew over cities of gold and cities of black stone. They were endless, like the Hist that cradled them. The sky was aflame and the sun was a pit. Still he flew, for he had not the strength to do more than let the current carry him.

He came upon a tower. It was tall and vast and many trees grew from its many layers of marsh. Creatures lived and died without ever knowing of a world outside the tower. At its top was a tree that bled fire. Other winged things that looked like him circled it. They cried out in words he understood but didn't know. He felt a deep sadness as the tower fell away.

He looked up and saw other worlds and other towers. They were spinning wheels and they crashed into each other, and their spokes got tangled up and they broke each other. And he saw that his world was breaking, too, but quick as a snake a shadow came and swallowed up the roots of the tower so they would not break.

Still he flew. There was only fire and darkness then, and so much noise, but he was too tired to be afraid. And so Matius slept, and drifted away into a black sun.
How many of these Realms are there? Well, we don't really know 100%. However, we do know that there are things which exist even further above them. If this in-character Altmeri comment by Michael Kirkbride is anything to go by, the whole Aurbis is just the lowest level of a telescope comprised of infinite Greater Wheels, "stretching all the way back to the Eye of the Anui-El".

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

A single Wheel? More like a Telescope that stretches all the way back to the Eye of the Anui-El, with Padomaics innumerable along its infinite walls.
The mention of Padomaics being present throughout the walls of the Telescope is actually relevant as well, as it fairly likely signifies that the Greater Wheels outside of te Aurbis have no definite shape of stability, and are instead Padomaic in nature, being in a constant state of chaos and change.

So, yeah. The degree of High 1-B of the Et'Ada being this high is most certainly unwarranted based on the information present here.

However, this shows that the full extension of the Aurbis is most likely far higher unto 1-A than previously thought, due to the existence of higher realms outside of Aetherius and the concepts of Space and Time, and even further Wheels beyond them, infinite in number. Considering that the whole cosmology of The Elder Scrolls is based around Infinities (represented as Circles, or Wheels if you like) contained within larger Infinities, it's not exactly a stretch to say that all of these external realms form an Infinite 1-A Hierarchy.

So, who scales to it? ...Eh, not many people, quite frankly. It is unclear if the Unbound Et'Ada (aside from maybe Aka and Lorkha) can scale to the full Hierarchy of Wheels, given how vague they are in general. As of now, I and Matt agreed that the only characters who scale to it with 100% certainty are Anu and Padomay, as the entirety of the Aurbis is nothing but the shadow of their interplay, and their Souls, Anui-El and Sithis, who are the personifications of the Light of Existence and the Void of Nothingness which encompass and surround it, respectively.

Of course, there is also the obvious example of the Amaranth, who is the source and fundamental wellspring of the entirety of the setting, and is actually supposed to represent Aleister Crowley's idea of the Boundless, Kabbalistic "0", the ineffable and indescribable nothingness that is unextended unto any categories or attributes whatsoever, but also contains the potential for all possibility to unfold out of it, which also brings up the Thelemic concept of 0 = 2.

Under the current System, that won't change much, tiering-wise, but under the arrangements of the 1-A tiers that I proposed on this thread, this would go somewhat like this:

Egg-Layered Aurbis: High 1-B

Chaotic Realms Beyond: Varying degrees of 1-A

Telescope of Wheels: 1-A+

Anu and Padomay / Anui-El and Sithis: High 1-A

Amaranth: 0

The Low 1-C Ratings
This part is gonna be a lot shorter, but anyways, to cut to the cheese here: The Lesser Gods of the Aurbis being Low 1-C is a massive lowball as it stands, as the profiles themselves note, and there is a good possibility that they are much higher, as Ogbunabali once pointed out. High 1-B, to be exact.

Firstly, it should be noted that the Daedric Princes are undeniably a fundamental part of Oblivion, with the Loveletter stating that they came to power by harnessing its possibilities and attaching to it in the first place, much like how some of the Aedra which became a part of the Mundus by giving themselves to it actually became stronger, instead of weaker, as is heavily hinted to be the case with Arkay:


Another subcreation happened to the wheels of the etada, a shore that all of creation crashed against, the terminus of limits known as Oblivion. An echo of the Void before but unalike, many spirits fled here and came to power by merely harnessing the impossibility of Limit+All.

Aetherius to Oblivion: creation to destruction.
However, Vehk's Teaching goes a step further, and actually implies that the Daedra were responsible for the existence of Oblivion in the first place, having created it in semblance of the Void of Sithis. Just like many things in The Elder Scrolls Lore, it is very likely that those two contradictory accounts are simultaneously true, and are just two ways of telling the same story:


What are the spokes of the Wheel?

For ages the etada grew and shaped and destroyed each other and destroyed each other's creations. Some were like Lorkhan and discovered the void outside of the Aurbis, though if some saw the Tower I do not know, but I know that, if they did, none held it in such high esteem. In any case, some of those that did see the void created its like inside the Aurbis, but each of these smaller voids sought each other out. Void shall follow void; the etada called it Oblivion. What was left of the Aurbis was solid change, otherwise known as magic. The etada called this Aetherius.
~ Vehk's Teaching​
In a later paragraph of the same explanation, Vivec also describes the Daedric Princes as the Masters and "Sons and Daughters" of Oblivion, with their domains being the voids between each spoke of the Wheel represented by the Eight Aedra:

The spokes of the Wheel are the eight gifts of the Aedra, sons and daughters of Aetherius. The voids between each spoke number sixteen, and their masters are the sons and daughters of Oblivion. The center of the Wheel was another circle, the hub, which held everything together. The etada called this Mundus.
And in an even later explanation...


"Sons and daughters of" should be read as associates of/associated with, especially insofar as this association was a conscious choice.

Today the common parlance is that only the eight that followed Lorkhan and created the Mundus are truly "Aedra," but this is folly. Some were not even the strongest of the Aetherius-aligned etada at the time, but were made as such by their creation of the dawn.

Remember, even the word "Daedra" started as a youthful rebellion.

I promised no riddles, but we speak here of the family-trees of the earliest divine planets, thrones, and seekers. Aurbis was created from the two, its energies coalesced into first forms, and these in turn made of the Aurbis what they could; keep sons and daughters in that context and it becomes easier to see them.
Now, this part is slightly more controversial. Basically, both the Towers and the Eight Aedra should scale to the Daedric Princes.

Now, many people have the belief that the Eight Aedra are nowhere as powerful as the Daedric Princes, due to having fractured parts of themselves to create the Mundus, as opposed to the Daedric Princes, which supposedly kept their full strength as Et'Ada by choosing to not partake in the creation of the mortal plane.

I personally think this is a misconception, namely, due to the fact that just like the Aedra became part of the Mundus, so did the Daedra become part of Oblivion, as the quote from the Loveletter up above states. In conjunction with the other excerpt from Vehk's Teaching, I believe it is pretty clear that this is the case: The Daedra created Oblivion as a padomaic realm of chaos, in their own image and from their own essences, as a reflection of the nothingness which surrounded the Aurbis.

Remember that as far as we know, the first realm to coalesce from the chaos was Aetherius, a realm more aligned with Anu and Anui-El by nature, and which was obviously not a friendly environment for Padomaic creatures such as the Daedra, who were aligned to the Everchanging Chaos of Padomay.

Keeping all of this in mind, it far more likely that, while the Aedra are indeed severely limited by the Mundus and and are forced to act as mostly passive forces, they shouldn't be too far behind the Princes in power, themselves, and only lack the freedom which they possess. A good metaphor for this would be that, while the Daedric Princes built their homes and have the keys to them, the Aedra built their own prison, and Lorkhan threw the keys away.

Now, with that out of the way, there are quite a few instances showcasing the the Aedra can indeed scale to the Princes, such as the fact that they, alongside the Towers of Nirn, actually actively contribute to keeping Oblivion at bay and preventing the Mundus from being swallowed by it:


In the first years of the First Era, a powerful race of Elves called the Ayleids, or the Heartland High Elves, ruled central Tamriel with an iron hand. The high and haughty Ayleids relied on their patrons, the treacherous Daedra Lords, to provide armies of Daedra and dead spirits; with these fearless magical armies, the Ayleids preyed without mercy upon the young races of men, slaughtering or enslaving them at their whim.

On behalf of the suffering human races, St. Alessia, the first in the line of Cyrodiils, sought the aid of Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time, and ruler of the noble Aedra. Akatosh, looking with pity upon the plight of men, drew precious blood from his own heart, and blessed St. Alessia with this blood of Dragons, and made a Covenant: so long as Alessia's generations were true to the dragon blood, Akatosh would endeavor to seal tight the Gates of Oblivion and deny the armies of Daedra and undead to their enemies, the Daedra-loving Ayleids.
~ The Amulet of Kings​
This story, albeit somewhat allegorical, heavily mythologized and extremely biased towards Imperial Faith, still proves that the Aedra do contribute to keeping Oblivion at bay. Namely because the Amulet of Kings is a relic of the Divines, it contains their godly power (As shown by the events of Elder Scrolls Online), and simultaneously acts as the Stone that powers the White-Gold Tower, which is itself responsible for keeping the gates of Oblivion shut and preventing the Daedric Princes from manifesting their true forms on Nirn under normal circumstances.

Furthermore, the White-Gold Tower is explicitly stated to be the most powerful Tower on Nirn, and is described as being above the Crystal Tower, even if its range is not as great, as I will elaborate in the following paragraphs:

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept-letter-8


Every dawnmaker Tower takes a myth-form. Red Tower is a volcano and its surrounds. Snow Throat a mountain whose apex is only half here. Walk-Brass is appropriately ambulatory, and (most of the time) anthropomorphic. The Aldmeri polydoxes were cosminachs, and the White-Gold project was and is no different.

Though the Ayleids gave theirs a central Spire as the imago of Ada-mantia, the whole of the polydox resembled the Wheel, with eight lesser towers forming a ring around their primus. To dismiss this mythitecture as being a mockery of the Aurbis is to ignore an important point: this same "jest" gave White-Gold Tower a power over creatia unalike any on this plane(t). It was a triumph of sympathetic megafetish, and the Start of the [Threat! To! Empire!] that brings me to this Council.

If the Ayleids made their own Wheel within the Wheel, were-web aad semblio, what would happen if they plucked its strings?
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Subtropical_Cyrodiil:_A_Speculatio


When the Aedra were persuaded—or hoodwinked—by Lorkhan into creation of the Mundus, the physical flesh of Nirn was hung on a skeleton of joints, each of which radiated a palpable reality—the bones of the world, as it were.

At one of these mystical joint-points the Aedra erected a great structure, the Adamantine Tower, where they held a conclave to decide the fate of Lorkhan and the Mundus. In later times mortal mages discovered the Tower, and deduced its reality-affirming properties. The Merethic Elves then imitated it, erecting the White-Gold and Crystal Towers at other joint-points.

In doing this, what did the Ur-Elves hope to achieve? I would posit that, through their collective "possession" of such Towers in their realms, over time the Elves actually amended their local reality to conform to their desires.

Thus the Summerset archipelago, in the sphere of the Crystal Tower, is a warm and paradisiacal domain perfectly adapted to the Altmer. And Cyrodiil, in the sphere of the even-more-powerful White-Gold Tower, became a warm and subtropical jungle—which suited the ease-loving Ayleids.
The Crystal Tower itself is absolutely no joke when it comes to its power and influence. In fact, it's defense mechanisms (activated when its Stone, Transparent Law, is put into synchronicity with the whole Tower once again) are powerful enough to banish Nocturnal, who was using the Crystal Tower as a centerpoint merged with her realm to spread her influence across the Aurbis by draining the lifeforce of Nirn, and thus was likely manifesting in her True Form at the time.

Furthermore, it is itself described as a metaphysical construct anchored to every reaility, both throughout Mundus and Oblivion, with Clavicus Vile even offering to use his realm as a gateway to its interior so the Vestige can battle Nocturnal during the Summerset Storyline.


Vestige: We need your help to stop Nocturnal. Tell me what you were going to tell the Ritemaster.
Sotha Sil: A demand? Interesting.
Then hear my words. Nocturnal stole a secret I thought well hidden. I developed a technique for utilizing life energy as a source of power. I suspect she will use that technique to amplify the Crystal Tower.
Vestige: What will amplifying the Crystal Tower do?"
Sotha Sil: The Crystal Tower exists on multiple planes of reality simultaneously and possesses capabilities we do not fully understand. We must assume that Nocturnal's options are infinite.
I suggest you find Valsirenn and inform her of this development."
Vestige: Nocturnal's no longer working with the other Daedric Princes.
Sotha Sil: I find it hard to believe that Nocturnal, Mephala, and Vile worked together for as long as they did. Daedric Princes aren't known for their willingness to share.
With the Heart, Nocturnal moves one step closer to gaining control of the tower.
Vestige: Why is the Heart so special?
Sotha Sil: Transparent Law, the crystal at the top of the Crystal Tower, anchors its metaphysical structure to all realities. With the Heart, she can restore the crystal, utilize its capabilities, and make herself master of the tower.
Vestige: How can the Crystal Tower exist on multiple planes at the same time?
Sotha Sil: The tower straddles every reality. Its true purpose remains lost to time, but I theorize it was created as a watchtower of sorts. A doorway to everywhere.
It stands to reason, then, that the tower is the key to omnipresence.
Vestige: How does that help Nocturnal?
Sotha Sil: Imagine a Daedric Prince who can exert influence throughout the multiverse at the exact same moment in time. Nocturnal could become infinite.
If she accomplishes that, then her power would multiply accordingly. She would be... without limits.
So, yeah. Based on all of this, I really doubt that the Eight Aedra are infinitely weaker than the Daedric Princes, in any way, shape or form. So, if the latter become High 1-B, then so should they.

However I admit it can lead to a handful of.. weird things, and as it stands, the possibility of the Princes even being rated this high is existent but blurry and a bit fishy, to say the least, and something I am absolutely not even sure about. Hence, I and Matt decided to include this elephant in the room among the things this thread would address.
 
As this is something Ultima and I have discussed ourselves for quite some time now, I am in agreement with most of this, however, I am of the opinion that the Et'Ada can scale to the unstructure realms beyond the Egg-Layered Aurbis. Mainly because they are all born from that primordial chaos and are aspects of the very Aurbis that they erupted from, which was then given order through the creation of Space and Time so that the structure universe (Mundus - Oblivion - Aetherius) could be shaped within it.

The development of Time and Space here doesn't necessarily denote dimensional limitation to the Et'Ada in their original state, as we are talking about the two concepts on a fundamental, ideal level, and less their practical application, which only seems to have come about much later with the creation of Ada-Mantia and the establishing of Akatosh's laws over the Aurbis.

I suggested something along the lines of "At least Low 1-C, possibly/likely High 1-B" for Aedra and Daedric Princes, while the Et'Ada would be more along the lines of "At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A". With the exception of Aka, Lorkhan and Magnus, who are the sole Et'Ada that qualify for definite keys for their "Unbound" selves, as all the lesser Et'Ada were more of unconscious, shapeless aspects of the primordial chaotic ooze that was the Aurbis before these three gave order to it with their fundamental concepts.
 
Aight, might as well give my own two cents. Reading over this and talking with Ultima about the additions today, I am in agreeance with most of the initial thread, though I believe Matthew raises some decent points as well. Of course, I also have my own opinions. Sooo let me go over that.

I will say that I do feel that the evidence showcased here could honestly be enough for definitive High 1-B ratings for the current Low 1-Cs, especially given the Crystal Tower existing throughout Oblivion only for Nocturnal to absorb the construct into her realm, Nocturnal being adjacent to all of Oblivion, and the Towers/Aedra keeping all of Oblivion at bay. So even if you want to say the whole deal with the Princes being one with Oblivion is arguably vague, there is quite the deal of supporting evidence regardless.

Moving forward though, while I feel that the Et'Ada might scale to the unstructured realms, I do believe there exists reason to doubt that in particular, along with giving Magnus/Lorkhan/Aka a definitive rating also being rather iffy for me. I acknowledge it as possible, but I'm hesitant to say it's certain. Now in regards to Anui-El/Sithis, Anu/Padomay, and The Godhead, I have no comments besides that I agree.
 
I am definitely leaning more towards the Princes being openly High 1-B, as I always have.

I think the Unbound Et'Ada should definitely at the very least get a mention of the far higher level of 1-A on their profiles, even if they don't necessarily scale (a "possibly 1-A+" if you will).

As for the rest I obviously agree fully.
 
They would most likely scale to whatever Tier the Unbound forms of Aka, Lorkhan and Magnus end up as.
 
I feel unbound etadas def need a 1-A upgrade based off cosmology (only our strongest ones like aka lork and magnus and a few others)

Also can clockwork city get a high 1-B upgrade now?
 
This is probably fine, but why is Anu ascended into an Amaranth not tier 0 as well?
 
So after talking through with Ultima we reached the agreement that while the regular Et'Ada will solely be High 1-B (As their "1-A forms" are too abstract and impersonal to even count as their own entities as opposed to shapeless unconcious ideas lying in primordial chaos), the few entities that can unquestionably affect the Dream more-or-less in its entirety while fully conscious will be ranked as "At least 1-A"

This is because we aren't fully sold on the idea of them being considered "1-A+" by affecting the Dream on the same scale as Anui-El and Sithis and the like. Who are unquestionably immensely above these beings anyway.

Regardless, here's a list of said beings:

  • The Ruling Kings / People that have CHIM (I.e, Vivec, Talos, The Nerevarine, and Jubal-lun-Sul, who doesn't have a profile yet)
  • The Numidium's World Refusals
  • Pelinal's Madness
  • The original forms of Aka, Lorkhan and Magnus
 
I agree with this, obviously, although I should note that at least the Ruling Kings should have High 1-A Range, as Vivec has stated that he can erase people from the "Thought-Realm of God", and accessed the Dreamsleeve (which exists beyond the Dream as the most fundamental level of existence) several times in the Sermons by "putting on his armor", which is itself a reference to the act of tapping into CHIM.
 
Vivec didn't use CHIM to slap Dagoth Ur out of existence because he knew that his fate was inevitable and that the Nerevarine was supposed to become the Ruling King and defeat the Sharmat. He was there to be a teacher that would guide the Incarnate, not an active force.
 
I trust Ultima's and Matthew's senses of judgement regarding TES.
 
The Ruling Kings

The Numidium's World Refusals

Pelinal's Madness

The original forms of Aka, Lorkhan and Magnus

So this would be the ones that would be High 1-A+
 
I have a question: the World Refusals means that if you "listen" what The Brass Golem say, your existence will be refuted even to the extent of NOT-BEING, even if the Transdualism plays on the contrary field?
 
My god this came out a hell of a time didn't it. Right around the same time tiering revisions finally went through.
 
Yes , but the numidium have a state of zero-sum , why it not become High-1A

cuz according from this formula , existence of anui-el + None-existence of sithis = 0 , it should have AP High-1A via world refuse too .
 
So can these changes be applied, or do we need more staff input first?
 
Lapsad said:
Yes , but the numidium have a state of zero-sum , why it not become High-1A
cuz according from this formula , existence of anui-el + None-existence of sithis = 0 , it should have AP High-1A via world refuse too .
Click to expand...
World Refusals forcing others to undergo Zero-Sum but not himself. And, I don't think you understand what Zero-Sum is.
 
Ok, then world refuse shuld become 1-A+ instead, cuz world refuse can vanish anything from dual system of existence and none-existence , which both dual is aspect of anui-el and sithis
 
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
@TrueBK98
I do know what zero-sum is, thanks.
Click to expand...
It's a concept in TES. Basically Zero-Summing happens when you realize duality and individuality is non-existent so as a result you just cease to exist.
 
Lapsad said:
Ok, then world refuse shuld become 1-A+ instead,
cuz world refuse can vanish anything from dual system of existence and none-existence , which both dual is aspect of anui-el and sithis
Click to expand...
At least 1-A is more reasonable since who don't know the full scale of World Refusals.
 
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