Tier 1 AP & Range Separation?

[KLOL506]

Can anyone make a brand new summary based on Agnaa's points and Ant's points neatly in a singular comment instead of just linking to comments? Because ATM they don't link anywhere useful for us to make a concrete conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

It has been a very prolonged and incoherent discussion, so unfortunately even I have a very hard time properly remembering and keeping track of it at this point.

 

[Vietthai96]

After looking at Agnaa's compromise solution, I currently doubt that the "Extradimensional" definition that he suggested seems necessary. I am not sure what holes that it is supposed to cover.

"Interdimensional" as I envision it should simply be to be able to reach into other universes or similar through different powers without affecting them in their entirety, and that's it.

I think that the other suggestions that Agnaa made in the post linked below seem fine to apply.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tier-1-ap-range-separation.135395/post-5950561

I mean, at the end of day, it is just making new term, so make a new extradimensional is not really a big problem, but if you don't want, we can just expand what interdimensional range cover and its definition

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Antvasima @Agnaa Would it be okay with you if we moved the discussion about Extradimensional range to another thread after we get the other suggested changes approved? This thread has grown quite hard to navigate, so I'd prefer it if we got the stuff that isn't in dispute out of the way and leave the Extradimensional range discussion for later to make it easier for the other staff members to evaluate.

 

[Antvasima]

As I stated above, unfortunately I do not remember well anymore beyond what I linked to earlier here.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

As I stated above, unfortunately I do not remember well anymore beyond what I linked to earlier here.

Agnaa made the following proposals:

For all of these suggestions, parts where words were added, changed, or removed were bolded.

Interdimensional should be changed to something like:

Attacks and abilities that can reach beyond the conventional space-time of a single universe, into external pocket realities or parts of other universes, but that can't travel a universal distance, can't affect multiple of these other realities at the same time, and can't reach into other multiverses or higher constructs.

Most higher ranges should have "throughout" changed to "anywhere within", but I would also suggest some minor grammar changes. i.e. Hyperversal could end up as:

Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within 12-dimensional or above space, without being able to reach anywhere within an infinite or greater number of dimensions.

I'd change High Hyperversal to:

Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within an infinite number of dimensions of space and/or time.

That's the minimum change I'd want, but beyond that I'd also suggest further changes to the range ratings to line up with our Tiering System more properly, such as changing Hyperversal to:

Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within spaces whose size corresponds from 8 to any higher finite number of levels of infinity above a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 12-dimensional real coordinate spaces and up (R ^ 12 and up).

I'd also suggest adding an Extradimensional range to cover the holes these new definitions leave, which would be along the lines of:

Attacks and abilities that can reach outside of the conventional space-time of a single universe, in a way that isn't covered by any other range ratings. Typically by being able to reach into parts of, but not the entirety of, different realms that lie outside of a standard multiverse, or by being able to reach into multiple timelines without covering a universal distance.

So in summary there are four suggested changes, that are all related:

1. Reword Interdimensional range to be more clearly limited.
2. Alter higher-dimensional ranges to mention being "anywhere within".
3. Alter higher-dimensional ranges further to line up more properly with our Tiering System definitions.
4. Add Extradimensional range to cover the new holes in the range system.

You agreed with all but the last one.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for the summary.

I think that can probably be applied then.

However, I think that we need confirmations from several other staff members who have responded to this thread. Can you list them here please, so I can send a notification to them?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I don't have a list, so I'll just ping everyone.

Interdimensional should be changed to something like:

Attacks and abilities that can reach beyond the conventional space-time of a single universe, into external pocket realities or parts of other universes, but that can't travel a universal distance, can't affect multiple of these other realities at the same time, and can't reach into other multiverses or higher constructs.

Most higher ranges should have "throughout" changed to "anywhere within", but I would also suggest some minor grammar changes. i.e. Hyperversal could end up as:

Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within 12-dimensional or above space, without being able to reach anywhere within an infinite or greater number of dimensions.

I'd change High Hyperversal to:

Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within an infinite number of dimensions of space and/or time.

That's the minimum change I'd want, but beyond that I'd also suggest further changes to the range ratings to line up with our Tiering System more properly, such as changing Hyperversal to:

Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within spaces whose size corresponds from 8 to any higher finite number of levels of infinity above a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 12-dimensional real coordinate spaces and up (R ^ 12 and up).

@Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath @Dereck03 Are these changes to our Range standards acceptable?

 

[Qawsedf234]

The suggestion looks alright to me.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

It's fine with me.

 

[GrathOfLux]

I am content with Agnaa's suggestions.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Interdimensional should be changed to something like:

Attacks and abilities that can reach beyond the conventional space-time of a single universe, into external pocket realities or parts of other universes, but that can't travel a universal distance, can't affect multiple of these other realities at the same time, and can't reach into other multiverses or higher constructs.

Most higher ranges should have "throughout" changed to "anywhere within", but I would also suggest some minor grammar changes. i.e. Hyperversal could end up as:

Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within 12-dimensional or above space, without being able to reach anywhere within an infinite or greater number of dimensions.

I'd change High Hyperversal to:

Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within an infinite number of dimensions of space and/or time.

That's the minimum change I'd want, but beyond that I'd also suggest further changes to the range ratings to line up with our Tiering System more properly, such as changing Hyperversal to:

Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within spaces whose size corresponds from 8 to any higher finite number of levels of infinity above a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 12-dimensional real coordinate spaces and up (R ^ 12 and up).

@Wokistan @Elizhaa @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale Are these changes to our Range standards acceptable? We still need your help here.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The suggestions seem fine to me.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Agnaa's suggest is fine with me.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The suggestion looks alright to me.

It's fine with me.

I am content with Agnaa's suggestions.

The suggestions seem fine to me.

Agnaa's suggest is fine with me.

@Antvasima Is this enough agreement to apply this?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. The accepted changes can be applied now. Thank you very much to everybody who helped out here.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Yes. The accepted changes can be applied now. Thank you very much to everybody who helped out here.

I have applied the accepted changes.

Range

Range is a measurement that refers to how far that the attacks or abilities of a certain character, weapon, or otherwise, can efficiently reach on their/its own. For more information about different units of length, please see this page. However, a general guide for categorizing range has been...

vsbattles.fandom.com

What should we do with the "Extradimensional" range Agnaa suggested?

I'd also suggest adding an Extradimensional range to cover the holes these new definitions leave, which would be along the lines of:

Attacks and abilities that can reach outside of the conventional space-time of a single universe, in a way that isn't covered by any other range ratings. Typically by being able to reach into parts of, but not the entirety of, different realms that lie outside of a standard multiverse, or by being able to reach into multiple timelines without covering a universal distance.

 

[Antvasima]

I have applied the accepted changes.

Range

Range is a measurement that refers to how far that the attacks or abilities of a certain character, weapon, or otherwise, can efficiently reach on their/its own. For more information about different units of length, please see this page. However, a general guide for categorizing range has been...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Thank you for helping out.

What should we do with the "Extradimensional" range Agnaa suggested?

I personally think that it seems unnecessary, and that we can likely ignore it, but I am not certain.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I personally think that it seems unnecessary, and that we can likely ignore it, but I am not certain.

@Agnaa Do you wish to discuss this suggestion?

 

[KLOL506]

I suppose we can leave the Extradimensional stuff for another day when Agnaa feels like it.

 

[Tanin_iver]

I personally think that it seems unnecessary, and that we can likely ignore it, but I am not certain.

The distinction between Interdimensional and Extradimensional range seems extremely silly to me. They're effectively just different degrees of the same basic ability (Reaching outside of the universe without actually crossing an universal distance), so separating them is just pointless.

fwiw I agree with you, but Ant vetoed a merge of the two.

From what I can see Agnaa was of the opinion to merge Interdimensional and Extradimensional which would have required changing the definition of Interdimensional a bit.

Interdimensional (merged with Extradimensional) would cover all ranges that break the hierarchical increase, by being greater in some directions but lesser in others.

Extradimensional, as worded right now, wouldn't necessarily transcend the reach of Multiversal+, as it would have to cover effects as small as being able to effect a single house in 3 timelines at the same time.

I think just expanding the definition of Interdimensional would require the fewest changes, but it sounds like it would still need some, as some characters get higher-D ranges despite not being able to cover the entirety of those realms.

I'm trying to change the ranges so that they increase hierarchically when possible, with Interdimensional (and Extradimensional, if that's used) covering cases where it isn't.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that suggestion would turn Interdimensional range into something much greater than what I envisioned when I originally came up with its definition, and as such it would give misleading information to our visitors, as they would assume that many characters that have Interdimensional range as we currently define it, are much more powerful in this area than they actually are.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Well, I think that suggestion would turn Interdimensional range into something much greater than what I envisioned when I originally came up with its definition, and as such it would give misleading information to our visitors, as they would assume that many characters that have Interdimensional range as we currently define it, are much more powerful in this area than they actually are.

I talked with Agnaa in private, and he had this to say:

Here's how that proposal came about:

• I noticed a hole within the higher ranges; Interdimensional only covered attacks that failed to cover a universal distance within a 5-D multiverse.
• I proposed changing Interdimensional to cover any attacks that fail to cover a universal distance within any spacetime greater than 3 dimensions.
• Ant didn't like this proposal and vetoed it, since he wanted Interdimensional to remain largely the same.
• In an attempt to still fix that hole in the system, I proposed Extradimensional, to attacks that fail to cover a universal distance within any spacetime greater than 5 dimensions.

If Ant has retracted his veto and Interdimensional can actually be changed to something sensical, I would prefer that.

If he hasn't, then I would defend that our hole within the range ratings still needs to be rectified by something like Extradimensional.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am open for adding a new "Extradimensional" term for range for powers that can, for example, reach across an 8-dimensional multiverse, without affecting the entirety of the covered "area", in case our current definitions do not cover it, but from what I can see, they seem to do so.

"Complex Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within spaces whose size corresponds from 3 to 5 higher levels of infinity above a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 7 and 9-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 7 to R ^ 9)."

 

[Agnaa]

Okay. I am open for adding a new "Extradimensional" term for range for powers that can, for example, reach across an 8-dimensional multiverse, without affecting the entirety of the covered "area", in case our current definitions do not cover it, but from what I can see, they seem to do so.

"Complex Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within spaces whose size corresponds from 3 to 5 higher levels of infinity above a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 7 and 9-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 7 to R ^ 9)."

They cover that case, but they don't cover the case for powers which can reach into some, but not all, places of an 8-dimensional multiverse.

I also envisioned it covering the other hole left by your preferred Interdimensional definition; being able to affect parts of multiple different timelines, without being able to travel a universal distance.

 

[Antvasima]

They cover that case, but they don't cover the case for powers which can reach into some, but not all, places of an 8-dimensional multiverse.

Wouldn't Complex Multiversal still cover that with a very slight wording change (by changing the word "anywhere" a little bit)?

I also envisioned it covering the other hole left by your preferred Interdimensional definition; being able to affect parts of multiple different timelines, without being able to travel a universal distance.

I think that our current text for "Interdimensional" can likely be very slightly modified to cover such cases.

 

[Agnaa]

Wouldn't Complex Multiversal still cover that with a very slight wording change (by changing the word "anywhere" a little bit)?

Then that creates a different sort of issue; our range ratings would generally be strictly better than the previous ones (Universal is lower than High Universal, is lower than Universal+, is lower than Low Multiversal/Multiversal/Multiversal+), but this trend would be stopped at Low Complex Multiversal. You could end up with a situation where a character with Low Complex Multiversal range isn't able to hit a character with Interplanetary range, but is able to be hit by them in turn, due to only being able to hit 10,000 km away within 5 dimensions.

I think that our current text for "Interdimensional" can likely be very slightly modified to cover such cases.

I'd be happy with that, it just wasn't done earlier since you preferred otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Then that creates a different sort of issue; our range ratings would generally be strictly better than the previous ones (Universal is lower than High Universal, is lower than Universal+, is lower than Low Multiversal/Multiversal/Multiversal+), but this trend would be stopped at Low Complex Multiversal. You could end up with a situation where a character with Low Complex Multiversal range isn't able to hit a character with Interplanetary range, but is able to be hit by them in turn, due to only being able to hit 10,000 km away within 5 dimensions.

That seems to be a good point. I am open for you writing a definition for "Extradimensional" range then.

I'd be happy with that, it just wasn't done earlier since you preferred otherwise.

Well, it is hard for me to keep track with such long periods of time and so many others tasks in-between our conversations.

Anyway, feel free to write a draft text suggestion based on what I said recently above then.

 

[Agnaa]

Oh right yeah, Extradimensional, as I envisioned it, would be something along the lines of:

Extradimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach outside of the conventional space-time of a single universe, in a way that isn't covered by any other range ratings. Typically by being able to reach into parts of, but not the entirety of, different realms that lie outside of a standard multiverse, or by being able to reach into multiple timelines simultaneously without covering a universal distance.

If you want to merge the multiple timelines thing into Interdimensional, that would simply require removing those relevant lines from both definitions.

 

[Antvasima]

On second thought, here are our current definitions for Interdimensional and Low Multiversal, so I think that it would likely turn too confusing for our members and visitors to make a distinction between them if we include multiple timelines in Interdimensional as well.

Interdimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach beyond the conventional space-time of a single universe, into external pocket realities or parts of other universes, but that can't travel a universal distance, can't affect multiple of these other realities at the same time, and can't reach into other multiverses or higher constructs.

Low Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within two to one thousand 4-dimensional space-time continuums at the same time.

Maybe the following definition for Extradimensional would work better in that regard as well?

Extradimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach outside of the conventional space-time of a single universe, in a way that isn't covered by any other range ratings. Typically by being able to reach into parts of, but not the entirety of, different realms that lie outside of a standard multiverse.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't mind too much if there's only one "typical" example; it's just a tradeoff between common readability, and spreading knowledge of the other more niche situations where it can come up.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. So do you find the following definition for "Extradimensional" acceptable then, or does it need to be further modified?

Extradimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach outside of the conventional space-time of a single universe, in a way that isn't covered by any other range ratings. Typically by being able to reach into parts of, but not the entirety of, different realms that lie outside of a standard multiverse.

 

[Agnaa]

While I moderately prefer my suggestion, due to it being more explicit about the other main case, I think that's fine too if we'd rather emphasize brevity/clarity.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Thank you. So do you find the following definition for "Extradimensional" acceptable then, or does it need to be further modified?

Extradimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach outside of the conventional space-time of a single universe, in a way that isn't covered by any other range ratings. Typically by being able to reach into parts of, but not the entirety of, different realms that lie outside of a standard multiverse.

While I moderately prefer my suggestion, due to it being more explicit about the other main case, I think that's fine too if we'd rather emphasize brevity/clarity.

@Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath @Dereck03 Are you okay with this?

 

[GrathOfLux]

I'm content with the suggestions. I slightly prefer Agnaa's suggestion, as I could imagine the added practical example being helpful for determining what meets the criteria for Extradimensional in future revisions. But I'm willing to support either if others find Ant's suggestion more agreeable.

 

[Antvasima]

On second thought, here are our current definitions for Interdimensional and Low Multiversal, so I think that it would likely turn too confusing for our members and visitors to make a distinction between them if we include multiple timelines in Interdimensional as well.

Interdimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach beyond the conventional space-time of a single universe, into external pocket realities or parts of other universes, but that can't travel a universal distance, can't affect multiple of these other realities at the same time, and can't reach into other multiverses or higher constructs.

Low Multiversal: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within two to one thousand 4-dimensional space-time continuums at the same time.

Maybe the following definition for Extradimensional would work better in that regard as well?

Extradimensional: Attacks and abilities that can reach outside of the conventional space-time of a single universe, in a way that isn't covered by any other range ratings. Typically by being able to reach into parts of, but not the entirety of, different realms that lie outside of a standard multiverse.

Just a reminder of why I think that Agnaa's version overlaps with other range statistics, so I am currently not willing to accept it.

 

[Vietthai96]

Just a reminder of why I think that Agnaa's version overlaps with other range statistics, so I am currently not willing to accept it.

I don't think so, since other range statistics mean characters must affect the entirety of the structure, not simply reach to the structure. For example with Low Multiverse range with....eh......2 timelines, a character with this rating can cross or affect the entirely of both timelines and the distance between these two timelines, while an Extradimensional range mean the character can reach other the other timelines, but not cross or affect the entirety of both timelines and the distance between. I did said something similar like this in my post in previous page or something

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, the distinction would be that a character with Low Multiversal range could mind control everyone in two timelines, over all points in time in them. While a character with Extradimensional range might be able to, say, only be able to mind control everyone on Earth in those two timelines.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that makes sense, but we currently word our definitions for Low Multiversal, Multiversal, and Multiversal+ range a bit unclearly to properly fit with it in that case.

 

[Agnaa]

Hmm, rats, I'm struggling to think of a way to reword those to make that distinction more clear.

Suggestions from others would be appreciated.