Tier 0 Swirl of the Root Retake

[Antvasima]

no staff has actually put an opinion down yet

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @DarkGrath

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Antvasima]

How many agreements is needed to pass a thread?

Well, this is a tier 0 revision, so I think that a stronger support needs to be formed.

 

[Antvasima]

I think for normal threads, it's three, but for a big and controversial upgrade like this one, it needs five approvals to pass (or something like that).

Not quite that extreme. You can check here if you wish: Discussion Rules

 

[Antvasima]

im pretty sure the counter reset the moment ultima decided to make a new thread.

If the rules for tier 0 have changed in-between the two threads, yes that is correct.

Which staff members responded to the previous thread about this topic?

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @CrimsonStarFallen @Planck69 @Theglassman12

Are you willing to help out here please?

 

[Deagonx]

What are the staff conclusions here so far?

The discussion is ongoing. The last thread got out of hand so this one serves the purpose of acting as a reset now that the main points of contention have been established. The intention is to go point by point until the arguments have been laid out clearly, at that point Ultima is going to come to a decision. He's currently neutral. The staff agreements from the earlier thread took place before a lot of the new evidence and discussion took place.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Not to butt in but there wasn't necessarily any new points that weren't debated on multiple times already. The staff members made their points and inputted their opinions. This new thread is NOT A RESET. Rather it's a CONTINUATION of the previous thread that got cluttered.

We can barely get one staff to make a comment on the thread. Reseting the votes for no reason is only going to make the staff members frustrated.

The votes have indeed been reset.

Also the thread is a reset and there have been new arguments and right now with the anti-feats the Root is not tier 0 at least that will be my vote unless all anti-feat can be addressed

You aren't staff, so your vote doesn't really count for anything.

---

Anyway: Stop with the superfluous comments, you all. I'll be deleting all of that.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Bumping this so it's not forgotten.

 

[Antvasima]

The discussion is ongoing. The last thread got out of hand so this one serves the purpose of acting as a reset now that the main points of contention have been established. The intention is to go point by point until the arguments have been laid out clearly, at that point Ultima is going to come to a decision. He's currently neutral. The staff agreements from the earlier thread took place before a lot of the new evidence and discussion took place.

@Ultima_Reality

Just a reminder.

 

[Antvasima]

You aren't staff, so your vote doesn't really count for anything.

---

This is unnecessarily rude though. We should try to take knowledgeable non-staff evaluations into account.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ultima_Reality

Just a reminder.

The debate hasn't really continued so far, so I can't exactly collect my thoughts as of yet. I can probably try and get this running later if I have some time, I guess.

This is unnecessarily rude though. We should try to take knowledgeable non-staff evaluations into account.

No comment.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Got permission to make comments from @Antvasima.

short little post, really.

First, Kiara managed to reach the “throne of God”, which is exclusively used to refer to the root when becoming a true demon, meaning she became one of the “Gods” Aoko was talking about that resided there, and then managed to be kicked off due to some mishap. This contradicts the whole thing of “never being able to come back”, disregarding the fact that her presence alone makes it clear that the “never” being able to come back thing is,sketchy. Keep in mind she is said to be a “higher dimensional” being as well.

Spoiler: kiara

真性悪魔【事柄】EXTRA世界にあっても、悪魔の概念は人類にとって最大の障害として扱われる。神が全知能であるのなら、悪魔は人知無能の存在。手の届く範囲にありながら決して理解できない淵ふちだ。stay nightにおいて悪魔は偽物しか存在せず、本物————受肉した悪魔に人間は太刀打ちできないとされる。（＊受肉した悪魔を退散させた例は一件のみ記録されているが、それはまた別の話）たいてい悪魔は憑くものとされ、人間の体を用いて受肉しようと働くが、苗床になる人間の精神が耐えられず、周囲に魔をまき散らして自壊するのが通例。中には自らの業によって人間でなくなってしまい、結果的に悪魔のカテゴリーに含まれる人間もいるが、これは魔人化と呼ばれるもので真性悪魔ではない。EXTRA世界において、悪魔憑きであれ、自らの業で変化したものであれ、真性悪魔を生み出した現象は２０３０年現在、一つの成功例 もない。悪魔、魔人化、と銘打ってはいるが、その在り方は異なる文明圏、異なる惑星に住まう高次元生命体と変わらな い。なにしろこの認識宇宙における『人』でなくなったのだから。その在り方は二十世紀に流行した、とある創作神話における邪神の在り方に近い。ＣＣＣの真ルートで変生へんじようした ある人物はこの域に達しながら、些細なミスによって神の座から転落した。

and heres my translation:

True Demons [Concept] Even in the EXTRA world, the concept of demons is treated as the greatest obstacle to humanity. If God is omniscient, then demons are beings beyond human understanding. They are an abyss within reach but forever incomprehensible. In Stay Night, only fake demons exist; real demons — incarnate demons — are unbeatable by humans. (Note: There is only one recorded instance of an incarnate demon being repelled, but that is another story.) Typically, demons are believed to possess individuals, attempting to incarnate using human bodies; however, the mind of the human host usually cannot withstand the strain, causing them to self-destruct while spreading malevolence around them. Some humans, through their own actions, cease to be human and are included in the category of demons, but this is known as demonic transformation and does not qualify as a true demon. As of 2030 in the EXTRA world, no phenomena resulting in the birth of a true demon, whether through possession or transformation by one's own actions, have been successful. Although termed as demons or demonic transformations, their nature is no different from that of higher-dimensional life forms residing in different civilizations or on different planets. After all, they have ceased to be 'human' in this recognized universe. Their manner of existence closely resembles the form of eldritch gods depicted in a certain mythos popularized in the twentieth century. A certain individual in the true route of CCC, who reached this state of transformation, fell from the Throne of God due to a minor mistake.

Also, not sure where the grail not leading to the root comes from.

The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach

In Fate Visual Story ( i sent the scan in a previous post), its straight up said to fixate the root itself.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Got permission to make comments from @Antvasima.

short little post, really.

First, Kiara managed to reach the “throne of God”, which is exclusively used to refer to the root when becoming a true demon, meaning she became one of the “Gods” Aoko was talking about that resided there, and then managed to be kicked off due to some mishap. This contradicts the whole thing of “never being able to come back”, disregarding the fact that her presence alone makes it clear that the “never” being able to come back thing is,sketchy. Keep in mind she is said to be a “higher dimensional” being as well.

When has "the Throne of God" ever referred to the Root?

Spoiler: kiara

真性悪魔【事柄】EXTRA世界にあっても、悪魔の概念は人類にとって最大の障害として扱われる。神が全知能であるのなら、悪魔は人知無能の存在。手の届く範囲にありながら決して理解できない淵ふちだ。stay nightにおいて悪魔は偽物しか存在せず、本物————受肉した悪魔に人間は太刀打ちできないとされる。（＊受肉した悪魔を退散させた例は一件のみ記録されているが、それはまた別の話）たいてい悪魔は憑くものとされ、人間の体を用いて受肉しようと働くが、苗床になる人間の精神が耐えられず、周囲に魔をまき散らして自壊するのが通例。中には自らの業によって人間でなくなってしまい、結果的に悪魔のカテゴリーに含まれる人間もいるが、これは魔人化と呼ばれるもので真性悪魔ではない。EXTRA世界において、悪魔憑きであれ、自らの業で変化したものであれ、真性悪魔を生み出した現象は２０３０年現在、一つの成功例 もない。悪魔、魔人化、と銘打ってはいるが、その在り方は異なる文明圏、異なる惑星に住まう高次元生命体と変わらな い。なにしろこの認識宇宙における『人』でなくなったのだから。その在り方は二十世紀に流行した、とある創作神話における邪神の在り方に近い。ＣＣＣの真ルートで変生へんじようした ある人物はこの域に達しながら、些細なミスによって神の座から転落した。

and heres my translation:

True Demons [Concept] Even in the EXTRA world, the concept of demons is treated as the greatest obstacle to humanity. If God is omniscient, then demons are beings beyond human understanding. They are an abyss within reach but forever incomprehensible. In Stay Night, only fake demons exist; real demons — incarnate demons — are unbeatable by humans. (Note: There is only one recorded instance of an incarnate demon being repelled, but that is another story.) Typically, demons are believed to possess individuals, attempting to incarnate using human bodies; however, the mind of the human host usually cannot withstand the strain, causing them to self-destruct while spreading malevolence around them. Some humans, through their own actions, cease to be human and are included in the category of demons, but this is known as demonic transformation and does not qualify as a true demon. As of 2030 in the EXTRA world, no phenomena resulting in the birth of a true demon, whether through possession or transformation by one's own actions, have been successful. Although termed as demons or demonic transformations, their nature is no different from that of higher-dimensional life forms residing in different civilizations or on different planets. After all, they have ceased to be 'human' in this recognized universe. Their manner of existence closely resembles the form of eldritch gods depicted in a certain mythos popularized in the twentieth century. A certain individual in the true route of CCC, who reached this state of transformation, fell from the Throne of God due to a minor mistake.

True Demon | TMdict

Even in the EXTRA world, things which fall under the category of demons are treated as the greatest obstacle to mankind’s continued existence. Humans think of

www.tmdict.com

Here is a different translation which says that lost her seat as a god due to a mistake. This fits a little better since she is stated to be a god/Boddhisatva on the level of the Buddha.

Demonic Bodhisattva | TMdict

1 Mashou Bosatsu. This term is the widely-known nickname of a certain somebody. The horns jutting from her head are devil horns. This shows that she is

www.tmdict.com

Also, not sure where the grail not leading to the root comes from.


In Fate Visual Story ( i sent the scan in a previous post), its straight up said to fixate the root itself.

Trying to make a path to the Root is very different from actually succeeding.

 

[Deagonx]

When has "the Throne of God" ever referred to the Root?

Fate Zero:

According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the root', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the throne of God, recording everything and able to create anything.

Witch on the Holy Night:

I don't care about the Root, and anyway, to this day there haven't been any survivors. There's not even proof that it's really the throne of the gods."

All three are using the same Japanese words. The Kiara quote is "The person who transformed in CCC's true route reached this level but fell from the throne of God due to a trivial mistake."

 

[Wankbreaker]

Fate Zero:

According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the root', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the throne of God, recording everything and able to create anything.

Witch on the Holy Night:

I don't care about the Root, and anyway, to this day there haven't been any survivors. There's not even proof that it's really the throne of the gods."

All three are using the same Japanese words. The Kiara quote is "The person who transformed in CCC's true route reached this level but fell from the throne of God due to a trivial mistake."

im pretty sure the first quote is actually from stay night,but you get the idea, yea.

(Edit, there’s a nearly identical quote in both series, but there’s something interesting. The root is the “outside of the world” itself,rather than being located there.)

According to the teachings of occultism, there exists a "Power" at the pinnacle of dimensional theory outside this world. It is considered the starting point of all events, known as the 'Swirl of the Root' that is the earnest ambition of all mages… It is said to be the throne of God, marking the beginning and the end of all things, capable of recording and creating everything in this world. About two hundred years ago, there were those who took the steps to reach this "outside of the world."

神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。そんな“世界の外”へと到る試みを、およそ二〇〇年前、実行に移した者たちがいた。

 

[Wankbreaker]

When has "the Throne of God" ever referred to the Root?

as shown above, nearly every time it is heavily explained in the nasuverse.

True Demon | TMdict

Even in the EXTRA world, things which fall under the category of demons are treated as the greatest obstacle to mankind’s continued existence. Humans think of

www.tmdict.com

Here is a different translation which says that lost her seat as a god due to a mistake. This fits a little better since she is stated to be a god/Boddhisatva on the level of the Buddha.

Demonic Bodhisattva | TMdict

1 Mashou Bosatsu. This term is the widely-known nickname of a certain somebody. The horns jutting from her head are devil horns. This shows that she is

www.tmdict.com

Except that is incorrect, as the kanji says “kami no za” (throne of God). this is the exact same kanji used in the other 3 examples. When nasu wants to refer to something similar but different to an existing important term,he usually uses different kanji. (examples being the 3 different readings of “ultimate one”, 原初の一,極限の単独種, or even most recently in Ordeal Call 3,究極の一). yet he uses the same set of kanji here.

Trying to make a path to the Root is very different from actually succeeding.

as stated multiple times in the verse and side material (and I even gave a scan of angra successfully using this pathway),it would be successful, the only problem is completing the ritual.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Fate Zero:

According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the root', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the throne of God, recording everything and able to create anything.

Witch on the Holy Night:

I don't care about the Root, and anyway, to this day there haven't been any survivors. There's not even proof that it's really the throne of the gods."

All three are using the same Japanese words. The Kiara quote is "The person who transformed in CCC's true route reached this level but fell from the throne of God due to a trivial mistake."

From what I've been told by other people before, 神の座 is just a generic phrase that means that something has reached the level of a god, which fits with Kiara's situation. It's not the only time this phrase has been used as it's mentioned in Hippolyte's profile in Fate/strange Fake (just go down to page 157) and apparently a ton of other places to indicate whether someone or something ascended to godhood and/or is on the level of a god.

The official translation of Witch on the Holy Night also translates it as "the seat of the gods," but as Aoko says, there's not actually any evidence for that. There hasn't been anything that shows gods residing in the Root, or anything like that. (Gods and Divine Spirits are connected to the Root, but that's an entirely different thing).

 

[Wankbreaker]

From what I've been told by other people before, 神の座 is just a generic phrase that means that something has reached the level of a god, which fits with Kiara's situation. It's not the only time this phrase has been used as it's mentioned in Hippolyte's profile in Fate/strange Fake (just go down to page 157) and apparently a ton of other places to indicate whether someone or something ascended to godhood and/or is on the level of a god.

as explained earlier, the relation between gods and the root are extremely close, with them even being constructed with magical energy from it (the root).

regardless, Kiara,being a true demon means she cannot be a God in the traditional sense, as she has 0 divinity to speak of, and is an entirely different class of being.

The official translation of Witch on the Holy Night also translates it as "the seat of the gods," but as Aoko says, there's not actually any evidence for that. There hasn't been anything that shows gods residing in the Root, or anything like that. (Gods and Divine Spirits are connected to the Root, but that's an entirely different thing).

Aoko later pretty much says that in order for mages to even know about it, means that there must have been at least one entity that resides there.

 

[Wankbreaker]

also quick note: (神の座), can also mean “position of a god”. Divinity in nasuverse measures divine spirit aptitude, for the most part.
Hippolyta’s profile means it in the context of, she does not have a divinity skill of A, so she does not have the aptitude of becoming a divine spirit after her death.

completely different from the Kiara example, as a True Demon is as far estranged from the human order and universe as possible, unlike divine spirits. There is 0 divine spirit aptitude within her, as she isn’t one, and is not related to one.

 

[Wankbreaker]

alright, I was skimming through mahoyo and found scans that actually support one of the points in the OP about the root merely being at the top of the nasuverse’s dimensional hierarchy, rather than being beyond dimensions all together.

aoko here says you need to overcome a dimensional wall in order to reach the root.


All magic is created as a result of reaching the root, the difference is if it comes from using a method to reach the root, and the method being uplifted to magic,or gaining magic through using a pathway to gain an entirely new magic.


this includes the 3rd Magic, which can materialize the soul, a higher dimensional medium, and can manipulate it as needed.

But the magi pinpointed the location of the “soul” and succeeded in outputting it to the new frontier, projecting it as an avatar in the cyber world.

With this, the magi transferred themselves to the electronic world and became capable of more advanced information acquisition.

After all, the soul was a higher dimensional energy body and it was quite superior as an information medium.

this is still problematic, as a higher dimensional being is still not supposed to be able to reach a 1-A or above plane, as they cannot be reached within a hierarchy of dimensions.

KNK also confirms all 5 magics are some flavor of space-time manipulation.

"...I see. If that’s the case, then a magician and a mage are indeed different. When it comes to things beyond the ability of modern humanity, manipulating time and space is about the only thing remaining. We’re in an era where even though seeing the future and viewing the past aren’t perfect, they are becoming possible. So, there really aren’t many things left that are truly impossible."

……なるほど。たしかにそういう意味なら、魔法使いと魔術師は別だろう。今の人類にできない事といえば、時 間とか空間を操る事ぐらいだ。未来視も過去視も完全ではないが可能になりつつある時代なんだから、不可能な 事なんて本当に数えるぐらいしかない。

a 1-A realm shouldn’t be able to be reached by space-time manipulation, let alone a tier 0.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

as explained earlier, the relation between gods and the root are extremely close, with them even being constructed with magical energy from it (the root).

Are you talking about True Ether? Because as far as I know, it doesn't come from the Root. It's just the Mana that was around during the Age of Gods. Da Vinci says as much in Fate/Grand Order's Babylonia Singularity, and unless you're telling me that Siegfried and Sieg using Balmung draws power directly from the Root (or something like that), I'm inclined to stick with this.

The Black Barrel is also made using True Ether (I know, it's Type-Moon wiki, but I couldn't find anywhere else it was translated).

regardless, Kiara,being a true demon means she cannot be a God in the traditional sense, as she has 0 divinity to speak of, and is an entirely different class of being.

She's described as a "new god," and she's a (Demonic) Bodhisattva on the same level as Saver, the actual Buddha, and, while it is a slightly different Kiara, in Fate/Grand Order, she has the Skill, Goddess Metamorphosis to show that she transformed into a god.

Aoko later pretty much says that in order for mages to even know about it, means that there must have been at least one entity that resides there.

She says that, but as she said earlier, there is no proof of that. And, as the narration says, even if it was true, they have no way back.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

also quick note: (神の座), can also mean “position of a god”. Divinity in nasuverse measures divine spirit aptitude, for the most part.
Hippolyta’s profile means it in the context of, she does not have a divinity skill of A, so she does not have the aptitude of becoming a divine spirit after her death.

It's the other way around, she has B-Rank Divinity because she didn't ascend to Godhood after her death. Asclepius and Heracles have A-Rank Divinity because they became gods in their legends.

completely different from the Kiara example, as a True Demon is as far estranged from the human order and universe as possible, unlike divine spirits. There is 0 divine spirit aptitude within her, as she isn’t one, and is not related to one.

As I pointed out in my previous post (I'm realizing I should've just responded to these together, which is my bad, I forgot I could do that), Kiara is stated to have become a "god," and she would still be on the level of gods anyway since she's classified as a Bodhisattva.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

alright, I was skimming through mahoyo and found scans that actually support one of the points in the OP about the root merely being at the top of the nasuverse’s dimensional hierarchy, rather than being beyond dimensions all together.

aoko here says you need to overcome a dimensional wall in order to reach the root.

That's an extension of Aoko's metaphor about True Magic to try and explain it and its differences with magecraft to Soujyuro.

All magic is created as a result of reaching the root, the difference is if it comes from using a method to reach the root, and the method being uplifted to magic,or gaining magic through using a pathway to gain an entirely new magic.


this includes the 3rd Magic, which can materialize the soul, a higher dimensional medium, and can manipulate it as needed.

this is still problematic, as a higher dimensional being is still not supposed to be able to reach a 1-A or above plane, as they cannot be reached within a hierarchy of dimensions.

The Third Magic is explicitly one of the "causes." It was developed to try to reach the Root, but that does not mean they succeeded.

KNK also confirms all 5 magics are some flavor of space-time manipulation.

That seems to be talking about the Second and Fifth Magic specifically, which is in-line with what they actually do. Also, this statement is only talking about what is impossible for modern humanity to perform, which does not mean that all True Magic involves space-time manipulation.

Plus, the most known about the Fourth Magic (even in universe) is that it exists, so even if this statement did mean that all True Magic utilized space-time manipulation, that's just baseless speculation since no one knows what the Fourth Magic even is.

a 1-A realm shouldn’t be able to be reached by space-time manipulation, let alone a tier 0.

You're right, but the Second Magic was only developed to try and reach the Root (there is no evidence that Zelretch succeeded in reaching it as far as I know), and the Fifth Magic was only obtained by "reaching" it (but as we know, Aoko and her grandfather actually turned back before actually reaching it).

 

[Wankbreaker]

Are you talking about True Ether? Because as far as I know, it doesn't come from the Root. It's just the Mana that was around during the Age of Gods. Da Vinci says as much in Fate/Grand Order's Babylonia Singularity, and unless you're telling me that Siegfried and Sieg using Balmung draws power directly from the Root (or something like that), I'm inclined to stick with this.

check the first page of the thread, I posted a scan that says AOG mages drew energy from it.

She's described as a "new god," and she's a (Demonic) Bodhisattva on the same level as Saver, the actual Buddha, and, while it is a slightly different Kiara, in Fate/Grand Order, she has the Skill, Goddess Metamorphosis to show that she transformed into a god.

the character for “god” here (at least in the first scan) is different here, telling you this isn’t meant to be a generic title. it uses the character for “heaven” with what I assume to be furigana in brackets saying (Kami) in hiragana.
this notably differs from Kami in kanji being used otherwise.

She says that, but as she said earlier, there is no proof of that. And, as the narration says, even if it was true, they have no way back.

Both Aoko and sojuurou remark how information on it shouldn’t even exist if it hasn’t been reached. it’s later confirmed to be the “throne of god” in both stay night and zero anyway.

It's the other way around, she has B-Rank Divinity because she didn't ascend to Godhood after her death. Asclepius and Heracles have A-Rank Divinity because they became gods in their legends.

not my translation:

■ Divinity: B
A skill that represent the depth of one's Divine Spirit aptitude, how close one is to a Divine Spirit. As one of Artemis's virgins as well as the daughter of the queen and War God, Ares, she is clad in a thick divine aura. But, she does not have the A rank to reach the throne of a god, after death.

As I pointed out in my previous post (I'm realizing I should've just responded to these together, which is my bad, I forgot I could do that), Kiara is stated to have become a "god," and she would still be on the level of gods anyway since she's classified as a Bodhisattva.

as explained about, the character used for her is completely different, and she is not a divine spirit. Nasu is very particular about these things, see Extra arc, she was nerfed because her master erroneously considered her to be a divine spirit/God.

That's an extension of Aoko's metaphor about True Magic to try and explain it and its differences with magecraft to Soujyuro.

yea, definitely not a metaphor, especially since one of the parts she described actually happens in hollow ataraxia.

The Third Magic is explicitly one of the "causes." It was developed to try to reach the Root, but that does not mean they succeeded.

see above, angra mainyu, using a portion of the grails powers, does exactly that.

also yes, yes it does. Aoko remarks on exactly that.

That seems to be talking about the Second and Fifth Magic specifically, which is in-line with what they actually do. Also, this statement is only talking about what is impossible for modern humanity to perform, which does not mean that all True Magic involves space-time manipulation.

No. The statement does not say that, it’s a blanket statement.

also, true magic literally is what is impossible for modern humanity to preform, no matter the time or resources.

Plus, the most known about the Fourth Magic (even in universe) is that it exists, so even if this statement did mean that all True Magic utilized space-time manipulation, that's just baseless speculation since no one knows what the Fourth Magic even is.

It’s said in the material profile, that the current magicians can point it out, and can confirm its existence. it just involves deduction inverse of what is not possible for human society, and hasn’t been reduced to the level of magecraft.

You're right, but the Second Magic was only developed to try and reach the Root (there is no evidence that Zelretch succeeded in reaching it as far as I know), and the Fifth Magic was only obtained by "reaching" it (but as we know, Aoko and her grandfather actually turned back before actually reaching it).

see above.

 

[Deagonx]

@Wankbreaker

Please stop commenting. It's just making this messier than it otherwise would be.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

@Wankbreaker

Please stop commenting. It's just making this messier than it otherwise would be.

Is it alright if I respond to @Wankbreaker's post, or should I not to try and keep the thread more organized?

Also, is it possible to get more staff to look at this thread, or are they all busy?

 

[Deagonx]

Is it alright if I respond to @Wankbreaker's post, or should I not to try and keep the thread more organized?

I think it'd be better not to respond. This has essentially devolved into a full on non-staff CRT. This does not help anyone. I am going to be deleting some of the above comments and ask that @Wankbreaker and @Nightshade do not participate any further.

Also, is it possible to get more staff to look at this thread, or are they all busy?

I'm not sure. I am deferring to how Ultima wants to go about handling the thread.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I think it'd be better not to respond. This has essentially devolved into a full on non-staff CRT. This does not help anyone. I am going to be deleting some of the above comments and ask that @Wankbreaker and @Nightshade do not participate any further.

Ok, that's fine with me.

I'm not sure. I am deferring to how Ultima wants to go about handling the thread.

Ah, ok.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Bump

 

[KingNanaya]

bump