The Writer and The Law of Identity

[SITHISIT]

snip

sorry for speaking here, but in my thread I stated "Tier 0's are transcendent to everything and everything by a boundless and unfathomable extent on a boundless and unfathomable level." We derived from this that if they are so boundlessly transcendent to everything that they cannot even be understood even by the omniscients of the verse (doesnt stop them from being omniscient bc its the legit tier 0), perhaps just by chance, they questionably have the power of omnipotence, which cannot be proven otherwise.

Either way, knowledge is irrelevant to a tier 0, but TLOI? She stated that there are things she doesnt know and certainly cannot reach. She is still bound to knowledge and she has that limitation that she cannot clap her hands and get herself. and she is not transcendent to that knowledge either so......

 

[Aeyu]

@Sithis

I don't think arguing about this is going to solve anything, though.

 

[Kaltias]

@Ant

I don't think that i can give a lot of input as those characters aren't my area of expertise. I do agree that we sould use the same criteria for all of them tho. If TOAA, Kami Tenchi etc happen to not qualify for a similar reason as the one argued in this thread, at least High 1A would be better i guess. But again, not nearly knowlegeable enough myself to properly judge

 

[DarkLK]

DarkLK, A6colute, and the ACF staff disagree about the LOI being tier 0

Only DarkLK actually has some competence to debate on this issue.

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkLK

Okay.

 

[DarkLK]

I mean that it's better to avoid references to ACF staff if you are not personally acquainted with these people. DarkLK at least is the administrator here. It seems a couple of years ago I said that the best way to "be like ACF" (in a good way) is it is to act as you see fit, without looking back at the opinions from other websites. Excessive faith in authority can undermine progress.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry about that then. I am just aware of that we do not understand the system as well as you do, and do not wish to mess anything up.

 

[DarkLK]

Your system should be convenient for you. Even if it is based on the ACF system.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[KingPin0422]

I know this is not my place to butt in, but I would think that the High 1-A/0 thing is like this:

0: You are qualitatively superior to absolutely everything no matter what. There are no things you cannot do, PERIOD.

High 1-A: Although you are qualitatively superior to any outerversal conception, you have some limits that put you objectively below a Tier 0.

And now...

"At least High 1-A": Conceptually speaking you are comparable to a Tier 0, but there is one very minor limit that a true Tier 0 wouldn't have.

 

[Aeyu]

Well, I think At least High 1-A more refers to a potential limitation that a character has that may or may not be determinable as a weakness. Thus, it could technically qualify for either tier, but is safer because it is "At least". I am not trying to redefine the tiers; I am more pointing out issues and trying to make them safe/avoid arguments and misunderstandings.

 

[Ryukama]

3. Azathoth is killed (Demonbane)

He definitely should not be Tier 0 if that is actually the case. I'm already uncomfortable enough giving Tier 0 to people who show clear limitations within their knowledge, or with their power/ability to grant themselves with knowledge of something. But a Tier 0 that can be defeated by another entity or killed is ridiculous.

Also I completely agree with DarkLK in regards to making our system best suited for us and not constantly appeal to authority.

 

[Aeyu]

@Ryu

Unless he's referring to something I don't know about, I think he's talking about Azathoth being sealed within Elder God Demonbane's Shining Trapezohedron (Something that, along with another weakness, is grounds to reduce said character to High 1-A, as confirmed by someone who is presumably going to help remake the profiles) Azathoth wasn't killed, but sealed, and EGD was able to tap into his power and use it to affect the fabric of existence. (EGD uses it to become/create a version of himself which is God, which Azathoth is also called within the story's context, along with a beyond-infinite other number of possibilities) Also, it is blatantly stated that Azathoth can't destroy the concept of the story, which, while stepping into metafiction territory, still defines a clear weakness. I think that DB Azathoth is a safer straight High 1-A than LOI, who I think may just qualify for At least High 1-A along with the others Ant possibly suggested.

 

[Ryukama]

Well as I understood, only the avatar of Azathoth within the dream got sealed. If not, then I agree with him not being Tier 0.

 

[DarkLK]

Well as I understood, only the avatar of Azathoth within the dream got sealed. If not, then I agree with him not being Tier 0.

This seal is just a blanket for him. It does not block his power in the least. Azathoth is literally the fundamental substance of all of Creation, including this seal and everything that is outside it.

Although in recent times Haganeya gone mad (because Kantai Collection), so that I no longer know what's canon, and what is not.

 

[Aeyu]

Well, the main reason for the downgrade would actually be the statement about not being able to destroy the abstract Song of Life, which, although presumably metafictional, is still part of the game world, and thus necessitates a "weakness":

Referring to Azathoth:

When he wakes, it will end

It will simply vanish, and there will be no one to know or remember it

Or perhaps it simply will have never existed at all

So is the world really nothing more than a fantasy?

But even the god who dreams at the center of the world, the god who created all things, can never, ever destroy it

 

[DarkLK]

Technically, even this still is Azathoth himself.

 

[Aeyu]

That just means he's limited by his own power, then. Could that qualify for At least High 1-A, since even if that is something related to his unfathomable nature, he cannot alter it by his own power?

 

[DarkLK]

That may mean that this thing that sleeps in the center of the world is limited. But this thing is not the whole Azathoth.

 

[Aeyu]

Where do you draw that distinction, though?

 

[DarkLK]

Well, there is Azathoth who sleeps in the center of the world behind the seal. And there's Azathoth who is the whole world.

 

[Aeyu]

So it needs two separate keys, then. One High 1-A key, being the entity, and a 0 key which is the canvas.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yes, Azathoth's "death" was only in his mind. Like if you died in your dreams, you don't die for real.

 

[DarkLK]

Well maybe something like this. Although I do not want to think about what is the canon in the DMB at the moment.

 

[Aeyu]

True, as I seem to recall yourself and others have stated multiple times that the profiles are lacking in explanations and in quality. Regardless, what do you think of the topic at hand?

 

[VenomElite]

@Aeyu

Azathoth did not "die", no. It got sealed. Again, I am far too tired to argue this. Forgive me for the misconception.

 

[DarkLK]

Regardless, what do you think of the topic at hand?

About the Writer and Keena?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So, are you suggesting that we should downgrade Demonbane Azathoth, TLOI, The Writer and the Divine Presence to "At least High 1-A"?

I disagree with downgradign the Writer to this, I'm sorry.

 

[Aeyu]

Particularly the second and the safe but also conciliatory At least High 1-A rating along with it that allows the character to sit in both camps (High 1-A and 0) but does not for sure deem whether her "limitation," is truly so or not, choosing to stay on the safe end of things. It seems supported enough by others, so far.

(Edit: I can't say for sure whether I would judge Writer to be At least High 1-A or not. Perhaps other current 0's might qualify though. It seems as though we've worked through the issues with DB's Azathoth, so the only one left in question is TLOI, who seems the most likely candidate for such a rating)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't know much about Demonban Azathoth but my understanding that it wasn't actually killed it just dreamed it was. Divine Presence is a standard generic Tier 0 with no weaknesses. The Writer I already defended my case to exhaustion. Only TLOI is controversial here.

 

[Aeyu]

Well, as Dark and others put it, there should really preferrably be two keys, as there is two different entities which are Azathoth, one being the "thing," Azathoth and the other being the essence of it which is supposedly all things regardless.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

A complete Azathoth profile would actually have three keys. One for Azana, its dream self, and its true self.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I was gonna remake it.

Eventually.

Very eventually.

Once all the Demonbane sources were read.

 

[Ryukama]

@Matt Azana and dream self High 1-A, true self Tier 0?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Azana is probably 1-A at best. And that's only if you go by Nitroplus Blasterz. By her manga alone she is probably 1-C.

 

[Antvasima]

It might be best to avoid mentioning DYN Freaks at all. From what I understand, the author has stated outright that the real Azathoth was killed and only Azana remains.

 

[Antvasima]

Basically, it contradicts the scale of the original Demonbane series.

 

[DarkLK]

Except for the very existence of personality, the problem with Keena is that she does not know if there is something she can not do. Well, if the other Tiers 0 which have personalities can answer this question in conversation with a human, then TLOI should not be Tier 0.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It might be best to avoid mentioning DYN Freaks at all. From what I understand, the author has stated outright that the real Azathoth was killed and only Azana remains.

DYN Freaks and Nitroplus Blasterz are supposed to be canon as far as I understand. Ven could share more light into this since he actually read way more Demonbane than I (I dropped the series cause I didn't like it).

 

[DarkLK]

Nitroplus Blasterz.

1-A Saber!