The Writer and The Law of Identity

[Ryukama]

Although I'm pretty sure many people and the site would disagree with me, I think many would argue that things like the rock paradox wouldn't even matter to an omnipotent. They can simply do anything with no regards for logic or what's seen as coherant or sensical to a human.

However there's also the argument from people like C.S. Lewis that "a meaningless combination of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix them with the two words 'God can'." So things like "being able to lift a rock so heavy not even you can lift it" or "An omnipotent can ieuafbnv 3rrib h3r" wouldn't really be applicable to one.

Either way I'm fine with us keeping "questionable omnipotence". Just giving a bit of two cents.

 

[Aeyu]

Well, I don't think the nature of logical/illogical omnipotence relates to the topic at hand, but I agree with all the sentiments given thus far.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Let's stop derailing please.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

1-A is already obscenely illogical. Spatial dimensions are everything. Being beyond them is utterly impossible, yet we have tons of 1-A characters. Although that is an actual truth and not a necessary truth, I really think that a character at Tier 0 would already be ignoring logic outright.

We have the Monarch of Pointland. For all intents and purposes, he straight-up doesn't exist.

But that isn't a problem for fiction. In fact we already have characters than can "exist in nonexistence." There are TONS of logical contradictions in fiction. Why are we all of a sudden getting picky with the rock paradox?

 

[Ryukama]

@Assalt That's a good point.

 

[Aeyu]

Anyway, this is my case: "At least," still addresses the limitation while also acknowledging that that limitation may not be one, which was the previously held and fought against argument (iirc Matt was the one who originally argued for the 0 rating, and even he agreed with the At least High 1-A rating) thus being concillatory and answering a potential sleuth of future questions.

Also @Assalt

That's not necessarily true. Spatial/temporal dimensions are NOT everything, and we have already argued tirelessly about whether or not 1-As are necessitatively beyond physics (just ask Ant) where it was agreed upon that they are NOT, as there are numerous physical quantities and qualities which exist independent of dimensions, as well as mathematical ideas and concepts. Sure, 1-As are typically the ones to exist in purely metaphysical realms, but being 1-A doesn't automatically mean you transcend all of math and physics.

Also, 0 dimensional beings could still potentially exist as points represented in a system. However, all of this is beside the point. We should focus on addressing the rating.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Aeyu

That's why I addressed that 1-As don't violate necessary truths. They still break normal logic, though.

But existing in nonexistence does break necessary truth. Yet we don't have a problem with this. And that is OK for characters infinitely (beyond uncountable infinity, even) weaker than a Tier 0.

Edit: Either way, I'm going to bed right now. Maybe we can make a new, fresh thread tomorrow. Have a good night, y'all.

 

[Fllflourine]

I think that's getting a bit too off-topic. We should be discussing TLoI's tier. Discussing the nature of 1-As, in themself, and how they defy logic, can wait for another day.

 

[Aeyu]

@Assalt

They don't necessitatively break modal logic either, just our current understanding of angled reality. When even advanced mathematics can describe and explore beyond-dimensional concepts, it isn't beyond logic.

Also, that still doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand. I agree with Flo that that should be relegated to the next thread that we do, in regard to Writer/Demonbane and whatnot.

The fact is, regarding TLoI, Matt was the one who originally argued for 0, and even he agrees with At least High 1-A, along with several others. If we could reach a consensus about that, we will have concluded what has so far already taken two threads to answer, and this thread will be able to be closed as I think everyone agrees every other subject should be for another thread.

 

[Ryukama]

Existing in nonexistence is equally as self-contradictory and nonsensical as the rock paradox.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it isn't the rock paradox that prevents us from rating tier 0 characters as definitely omnipotent. It is that there is no way of quantifying or proving omnipotence, regardless if there are in-story claims or impressive definitions.

I really don't think that it is a good idea to mess with the higher levels of DarkLK's tiering system, especially without consulting him.

Unfortunately I am extremely tired and busy, and do not have the time and energy to properly defend our system, but messing with it seems extremely unwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we close this thread, so Aeyu can start a new one about TLOI, and possibly Demonbane?

 

[Aeyu]

Well, I still think that there was a sizeable portion of staff/users who were fine with the concillatory downgrade (including and especially Matt, who apparently argued for 0 to begin with), but it isn't really my decision. Additionally, this staff thread was made due to a discussion made in the normal boards for the same thing, so it seems a little redundant to keep going over it, but that's just my opinion. The other stuff I'd be more than happy to make a new thread about, though.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that I could temporarily unlock The Law of Identity, so you can modify the profile then.

I would greatly appreciate if we avoid new threads about revising the upper parts of the tiering system though. It will most likely only be destructive for the wiki.

 

[Aeyu]

Okay. I will make it quick if allowed (I will add a note) and then comment here when I am finished.

And I did not intend to bring that up in a new thread; merely the other topics discussed.

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so. Tell me here when you are finished.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks, although I was talking more in general.

 

[Aeyu]

A question, though: Should "Questionable Omnipotence" be kept in her profile, or simply changed to "Reality Warping"? This is a historically unique case, so this would be the official ruling on such a thing.

And okay. I just wanted to reassure you in case you had any worries

 

[Kaltias]

I mean, the reason why she is "At least High 1-A" is because it's questionable wheter or not she is a tier 0. So i'd leave the "Questionable Omnipotence" as it is

 

[Aeyu]

So then Questionable Omnipotence can stay?

 

[Kaltias]

I mean, personally it can, but i 'd wait for the opinion of others

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure, but reality warping seems safer. I think that we have othervise only allowed straight tier 0 characters to have the questionable omnipotence rating.

 

[Aeyu]

I have put "Possibly Questionable Omnipotence" at the end of her Powers and Abilities, but I can remove it if you think it would be safer to do so.

 

[Antvasima]

Reality warping seems safer, yes.

 

[Aeyu]

I have removed the "Questionable Omnipotence," part, then. In any case, I have finished with her edits, and have left a corresponding note detailing the reasons for such a tier being used instead of the typical High 1-A/0 dichotomy. Thus, I can say it is safe to both lock that profile and to close this thread; I appreciate that we were able to resolve this issue through cooperation.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so.