The Writer and The Law of Identity

[Antvasima]

I would prefer if Kevyn does not interfere. That might end in disaster.

 

[Sera_EX]

Best not to. While I'd like him to reply I don't think it's necessary. The downgrade stays and The Writer can be left alone. Simple as that. I doubt more staff are going to reply to this. Most don't care about Tier 0 anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

We still cannot replace our convention of "Questionable Omnipotence".

 

[Kepekley23]

I honestly don't mind defending DarkLK or our tiering system, but we also have to look past the issue and solve our problems.

 

[Antvasima]

Our system is built on hierarchies, but we do not consider it possible to prove omnipotence. Hence, we take the safe route of "maybe, maybe not".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't even care anymore. This thread has reminded me of the worst things about VBW. Just leave the Writer be and downgrade LOI to High 1-A for now.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Matt

Come to chat later if you want somebody to rant to. ovo

 

[Aeyu]

Why not an At least High 1-A tier then? I know my suggestions may not be as valued as others', and that such a parameter has never been put on a character here, but I do think this might give everyone what they want.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why not an At least High 1-A tier then? I know my suggestions may not be as valued as others', and that such a parameter has never been put on a character here, but I do think this might give everyone what they want.

I like this.

 

[Kepekley23]

You all know I agree with that, so.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yeah, I was just about to post that.

 

[Aeyu]

If not, High 1-A works just fine. I was just suggesting it to potentially stop fighting and all that, which doesn't help the Wiki much. Again, I apologize for commenting so much on here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I also apologize for coming off as rude and too argumentative.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Thank you. I apologise as well for being overly worried and grouchy. I am extremely tired.

Anyway, I suppose that Aeyu's compromise could work.

 

[Kepekley23]

"If Ant doesn't want me to inverne, I won't. I respect him a lot, and I agree that it'd be a disaster to let a guy who questions everything against the authorities who created that system. I'm too rational and skeptical to accept something just because "X said so".

- Guess who approached me and said this.

By the way, this is him saying he respects Ant's decision. Don't misunderstand him.

 

[Antvasima]

I appreciate that Kevyn understands the situation, and thank him for the consideration.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I also apologise if I was being rude. It is just extremely hard for me to repeatedly defend the tiering system at the same time that I am about to fall over from exhaustion and perform several other tasks at the same time.

Should we apply "At least High 1-A" to TLOI?

 

[VenomElite]

I don't have the energy or time to debate this extensively, nor do I have any attention on debating this with DarkLK.

I respect that he thinks differently, considering he talked with his staff for hours on Skype when discussing Tier/Level 0 and to repeatedly do so would be a pain. My argument is simply that all Tier 0s have some form of controversial status.

All of them.

1. Kami Tenchi claims to have forgotten something.

2. The One Above All claims to not know something.

3. Azathoth is killed (Demonbane)

4. The Identity claims she doesn't know what she can do.

There's so many examples. The Identity also never transferred her power to someone else, only appointed in her place. This is why the claims of "she's not omniscient, are flawed from a VSBW perspective, not an ACF one.

ACF has three acknowledged Tier 0s. Azathoth (Demonbane), the Creator, and Kami Tenchi (Supreme Being). TOAA is not included in the categories and is not reviewed by the staff. VSB is different. We have more than one Tier 0 with questionable omniscience. You cannot give one character the slip because if we downgraded it the wiki would be hated yet contradict the category by removing the Identity when that same reason would remove Kami Tenchi, the One Above All, and arguably both Azathoths.

Sera's point: We and ACF have different ways of doing things. ACF believes To Aru is High 1-C yet the True Magic Gods are 2-A here.

I would like to state I am fine with downgrading the Identity, but my reasoning still stands as Sera mentioned. I just can't argue for it, I don't have the energy and am exhausted most of the time.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am also exhausted most of the time, and considerably more than usual today, but I suppose that you make a good point.

 

[Antvasima]

I still definitely do not want us to get rid of the "Questionable Omnipotence" concept though.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that the tier 0 can probably stay for both of them then, for the sake of consistency.

 

[Aeyu]

To be fair, Azathoth in Demonbane was already be considered for a High 1-A downgrade due to a metafictional limitation which is arguably larger than this one's, not to mention what you stated. TOAA was downgraded to 1-A before for possibly these reasons. However, I think Kami Tenchi's was more to make himself seem relatable.

Azathoth (CM) has no such weaknesses.

Divine Presence (I/O) has no such weaknesses.

The Writer (DC) presumably has no such weaknesses, as the avatars are not the entity.

The Creator (Umineko) has no such weaknesses.

I still think an At least High 1-A rating is better, as it covers all bases.

 

[VenomElite]

Questionable is fine. It conveys the message appropriately.

 

[VenomElite]

@Aeyu

Yes, I am aware. And I was always there to explain why they'd still be Tier 0 just I like I did with the Identity way back when.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Kami Tenchi was trying to make himself relatable.

However, we may have to downgrade him eventually, depending on what information that DarkLK gets from reading the fan translations of the 15 official Tenchi Muyo GXP novels that I sent to him.

For the moment we do not have that information available though, so we should remain patient.

 

[Aeyu]

@Ven Then don't you think At least High 1-A is better? Marvel has stated that TOAA is omniscient, as well, so him saying that, as well as Kami Tenchi's thing, can only be terms of speech. That rating (At least High 1-A) still implies 0, but takes a safer lower end. (Which generally seems to be our method with dealing with contentious statistics) It also would set a precedent in making our Tiering System more diverse, without changing any tiers or creating drama.

 

[DarkLK]

No, it is literally the Judeo-Christian God. It is even called the Holy Spirit for a reason.

No, it is not the Judeo-Christian God.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well, this seems concluded.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I mean, TOAA literally says it is curious and intrigued multiple times, but it is Omniscient.

 

[Aeyu]

I think it says those things to relate itself to those who can observe it. That's different than directly not knowing something, right?

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps we should close this thread then? Again, my apologies for being stressed out.

 

[Aeyu]

Well, what do you think about At least High 1-A? Is it not a truly safer lower end?

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know. It would probably be more consistent to keep the current ratings.

 

[Aeyu]

But, if consistency is required, not addressing a possible issue may also set a precedent, albeit in a negative way. I just want to avoid any potential discussions like this in the future, as it has already caused an escalation of events which has been detrimental to the well-being of the members on the Wiki, and it has proven to be a largely contentious topic, which has threatened to destabilize the Wiki. I would also like to hear VenomElite's response to this, if possible at all.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yeah, this is concluded.

Although, At least High 1-A isn't bad either.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that is a good point as well. I am just too tired to argue.

 

[Aeyu]

I think it would help define better what the line between High 1-A and 0 is, set a precedent, and also prevent future needless discussions, which, as has been mentioned throughout this thread, has caused a lot of stress for the admins, moderators and bureaucrats.

 

[Antvasima]

So, are you suggesting that we should downgrade Demonbane Azathoth, TLOI, The Writer and the Divine Presence to "At least High 1-A"?

 

[Aeyu]

I have already stated above, and indeed, in other threads, that I believe there is only really reason to do so with DB's Azathoth and TLOI, but if Divine Presence and The Writer are agreed to fit the bill, then yes for them as well. We do not necessarily need many tier 0 pages, anyway. It is extremely contentious and has caused a fair amount of drama in the past. This would likely help ameliorate that, not add to it.

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of you think about this?